View Full Version : Recovery
How do you handle recovery between sets? Not between work days. Example: Runs a mill for XX amount of minutes and the set is over, I do (fill in the blank) and then back to the mill or to the next piece of equipment.
Best practices?
Determined by the piece of equipment being used?
Sparking some conversation/discussion I hope!!
EWO
I use that time to let them rest, pat them and talk to to build a better bond.
bulldoghistorian
05-09-2016, 11:21 AM
i reduce time between sets , expect them to recover faster
I seldom rub a dog , between sets I walk em till they recover
Tastyrib
05-11-2016, 06:53 PM
Weather permitting, I jump on the bike. I like for them recover doing more than just walking.
Same here. I come off the mill or the table and let them pull some weight til they recover. Sounds odd I know. I'm seeing lots of benefits.
Granted the first couple of weeks it may be more than he can handle so it becomes a simple walk out. By week two, week three he can pull about 25% of his bodyweight to recovery.
What happens is the recovery time becomes the primary factor in each days work. The first run of the day will be longer and by recovering under load the second run will be much shorter. And third shorter as well. The fourth and fifth if the dog can handle it.
The key, like anything, is allowing the dog, his level of conditioning and his willingness to dictate the amount of work for that particular day.
The over all sessions will be shorter in the beginning and in time they will lengthen with his advanced conditioning. His initial run time will increase. The chain pull between runs will decrease and the remaining runs will lengthen in both how may runs and the duration of each run.
The dog then determines everything. Even the days off. If he does not meet you willingly and ripping to go, then take the day off.
EWO
I agree whole heartily with this method. More like the way a cage fighter/Wrestler trains versus a boxer routine. Karate etc. fighters found out that their type training was not working very well for cage fighting events. In a all out fight to the finish,a do or die type fight event. Needed training to learn how to recover while in a more anaerobic type state. Since no quarters are given till a certain time bell rings for the next round. Little rest is allowed even then. Similar scenario our dogs go through during a hard pulling event. Lot of hard pushing and shoving.
The only thing IMHO I would suggest. I know most dog men know how to prekeep a dog, before any serious work. Would work up to 30 minute aerobic type work/long walk afterwards, twice a day. A swinging jenny or round table for aerobic training works great for this.
Only feed main feed once a day in PM after work. With added fluids as needed twelve hours before PM. work out.. Have dog wormed, cleaned out and use to it's new feed. Allow foot pads to toughen/ muscles to tone up and dog on best weight with little or no gut fat in dog. Depending on the season and how fat/ lazy or active dog is on the chain. Pre keep could be 4 weeks to 8 weeks. All depends on type dog being worked with. If owner kept dogs in good lean chain shape. Extreme Cold weather areas will dictate how heavy a dog is kept on chain etc. Where one lives/life style/ type of over all weather will always dictate the best type equipment one can use the most. Cheers
FrostyPaws
05-12-2016, 03:07 PM
I don't do sets. I have the dogs do sprint intervals on the mill. Sprint for X amount of time, slow down to their normal pace the other time, rinse and repeat.
When using a jenny, I simply let the dog run at it's own clip more than anything else. It has ample incentive to run the jenny at whatever pace it decides, whether faster or slower given it's current shape of conditioning.
Posted this before but it worth the repeat. It is really important to get a dog on performance feed 6-8-10 weeks prior to the start of work in order for him to acclimate to the change.
I have seen a lot of dogs who are fed what would be referred to as crap feed and then a date is set. The dog starts working but the feed is far more than he is use to assimilating. He will crap most of it out. Monster stools to get empty.
It takes a dog 6-8 weeks to acclimate to the change in food. Lots of times the dog will peak around week 7 into week 8. Most get excited when he really takes to the keep and comes around at the end. In reality the assimilation of the high quality food has finally matched up to the amount of work being done.
If I knew I was calling a dog's weight I would switch him to the high grade feed today, start some light walking, pulling down close to the match weight and around the fourth fifth week of that I would put it out. Around 10-11 weeks out we start getting on schedule. Be it AM or PM work we start dialing in on a routine. The weight is picked up and the work is ramped with everything else in line. The dog is close to weight, he is a little toned, no gut fat and pretty much learns to dump on command.
This is either 6 or 8 weeks of work. Not a couple three weeks to dial in and establish a routine and then a couple-three weeks of work. A 6 week keep or an 8 week keep should be just that 6 or 8 weeks.
The routine will create a dog who is just about empty. Which is huge. A dog will blow hot when full, or holding multiple dumps. An example would be if the dog is fully prepared, ready and willing to do XXX minutes of work. With that extra dump he will stop at XX minutes and look like he had a good day. Several of those 'good days' strung together will get feelings hurt on a Saturday night.
The second most important thing in recovery is water content. A lot of dogs are not properly hydrated from Day 1, and water content is only a major concern the last week to dial weight. Too dry during work is just as bad and just as harmful as too dry on show night. I have seen a number of dogs who looked really good thru the keep, pulled dry and bombed when it counted most. Also seen dogs kept way dry during the work and at the end of the keep they are flat and a shell of what they were/should be.
The third and possibly the most important part of recovery is rest, not so much between sets but day to day. A solid rest period is crucial to the next day's work. If a dog is over worked, or even just worked, and not allowed a proper rest period the recovery between sets will suffer. When the dog does not recover from set to set or even day to day it will be a long ride home on Saturday.
EWO
Hear, Hear, EWO, You are right on the mark. Unless one has the privilege to help a known dog person with a dog keep start to finish.
A serious new comer can try to learn from these bits and bites of info on this site etc.. Then best to prekeep some dogs for awhile to determine show weight and check out their pulling abilities. Problems will crop up and then one can learn how to fix the problems. Will also let one know if they have the fortitude and discipline to engage in such a challenging task. It is a lot of time and hard work. Nothing easy about it at all especially if one has a full time day job to work also.
P.S. Best thing to do first, is learn how to set up a proper dog kennel and dog care. I still highly recommend CA. Jack's Books over any of the older books I had read about the care of this breed of dogs. Has a lot of good info for a new dog person starting out. Cheers
EWO, you mentioned about some dog men keeping a dog dry during it's work keep. On a visit up to Atlas Brewer's place. V.J. and self were looking at the nice looking dogs He had on his yard. At that time Atlas had a lot of the Lonzo dogs and I remember seeing a extra nice looking dog he had called Black Friday. At that time he still had Vindicator and Rosie.
He pointed out a dog that was in a keep and nearing the end of it's keep. We saw a large glass jar sitting near the dog on a piece of plywood. Saw no water bucket etc. We asked him why, answer was the dog was given only so many ounces during the day to control weight. Later V.J. told me he thought that was a bad idea and proved it over time. Not losing any matches to Atlas that I could remember using his dogs.
When Atlas matched Snooty into Mr Watkin's and Boe Harris' OX dog. V.J. was paid to do the work on OX. Atlas drove all the way to lower S.C. and when I looked at a older Snooty. The dog looked very dry and lethargic. Atlas kept Snooty in a dry heated motel room all day and part the night. Letting anyone that wanted to see Snooty come in and handle the dog. Snooty was not in a secure area and a secure dog box outside breathing fresh cool air and sleeping. Dog got very little rest.
Atlas made too many mistakes, Snooty being a old dog that had already been to the well a lot of times. Paid the price. Could not hold up to any length of time to overcome a lesser ability dog. OX was much younger, well conditioned/rested and not dryed out. Mr. Carl Mims was a wise dog man and realized all of this. Good that Atlas allowed him to take Snooty and not destroy the dog. Cheers
I have heard Mr. Mims say that on that night Snooty never had a chance. I can't remember the name but I heard once that someone offered Mr. Brewer the forfeit as Snooty looked bad mid-afternoon.
When controlling the water lots of times a dog will end up dry. If the dog is healthy with no kidney issues or tract issues he will not over-hydrate himself. I add water to the main meal as well as a broth fluid 12 hours out. When the work load starts to increase he will go tot he water bowl when he needs it. Within a few weeks he will hardly touch it as his body 'dials' itself in to a proper water weight.
At the end we count backwards in 30 hour increments from show time til 4 days out. The water intake becomes a part of the daily ration. By then he is pretty much off the water bowl anyway. The weather will also play a part in water intake so one's region/climate will factor in as well.
I would venture a guess to say water (too wet or too dry) has been the demise to a lot of really good dogs over the years. Sometimes they can do well in spite of their human counterpart but it does not happen all that often. Unfortunately, it is usually the other way around. Sometimes I sell my fellow man short, but I would be willing to guess for every dog that wins in spite of his human counterpart there are two that succumb because of poor decisions.
I have a friend that is as country as any person I ever met. His normal every day conversation has all of the "old folks use to say" phrases already included. We were talking about this very subject about CH. Caballo (Garner's Dynomite bred). He was done once on weight, once too high and once too light as the owner picked up a weight and then moved his dog to that weight. For whatever reasoning Caballo overcame all that was put in front of him, including the one person that was suppose to be behind/with him. My buddy said, "The only thing Caballo could not do was drive the truck and count the money, everything else he handled himself". (in so many words)
Not a lot of Caballo's floating around out there.
EWO
gotap_d
05-14-2016, 06:54 PM
Great posts guys.
Ditto gotap_d. Do not see how giving multi dosages of Dex or Azium/water pills (sometimes both) to dry out a dog helps very much either. Trying to dry a dog out that late in the game will pull out large amounts of life sustaining electrolytes. Once these Electrolytes are depleted, a dog goes stale and it takes days of rest to bring a dog back to just feeling good on the chain.
What one is attempting to do is keep any excess of moisture from building up in the dog's lungs. This plus other problems will crop up when a dog is to wet and put under hard stress. Since a dog has to sweat through it's tongue and mouth. That is additional moisture that is breathed into the lungs while trying to stay in holds. Will hear that dreaded blubbering sloshing sound coming from the sides of the dog's mouth. Dog is trying to stay in holds, results dog looses control of it's cooling ability, blows hot, blows out,game over.
The 28 to 30 hour feeding is allowing for all stool to be passed out of the bowels. Four sure things that will run a dog hot. Any gut fat, excessive moisture in the lungs/ dog just wet over all/ and any stool still in the gut track.
We used 1cc to 3cc of Predef 2x aqueous suspension. Not 100% sure of which amount anymore. One would have to do some pre keeps and see what works over all best. Under skin at lower top neck area 12 hours from weigh in. Takes care of all the above (except proper feeding time and cleaning out) and much more. Without over drying or doping the dog. Will not make a dog game or if not properly peaked can not fix that problem either. Will bring a properly worked dog on point, can only be used at a precise time and in a one dog pulling show. It is what it is. LOL
At twelve hours let dog clean out/ and drink first. One will know how much water/etc dog is to drink at that point( At least one should know). Give predef 2x shot and put up. At 6 hours walk and clean out,let dog drink amount of water one knows it needs. But do not put out a bucket of water and pay no attention. Dog will drink a lot more if allowed. One has to be in control of what is going on, at all times at this point.
I got Maurice Carver and some others on the other site all fired up a good while back. When I tried to explain some of this, they could not wrap their mind around a 28 to 30 hour feed cycle on those last four days. Reason why was they fed their dogs solid food in AM and PM. We only fed the main feed in the PM and gave the needed fluids 12 hours before that main PM work out. That main PM workout over time got to around 3 to 4 hours long with all factors to be done added together. The dog did not work continuous with no breaks for four hours.
In the early AM, dog got up to 2 1/2 to 5 miles of hand walking and hand rub. This kept the dog limber,worked out soreness, check out feet etc., bonding time and see how dog really felt over all.
IMHO,hope some of this helps. All medical shots to be given by a licensed Vet at least that was what we are told. LOL Cheers
Good posts. I always enjoy these.
Once upon a long time ago I worked straight nights. After work I weighed the dog. I worked the dogs in the AM, fed a fatty, broth-like supplemented solution. I slept the day away and weighed the dog in the evening. His weight would determine the amount of food trying to target his working weight for the next day.
Way back then we used dex or fluid pills to pull off water closer to the end. They can work if they are given precisely on time every day.
Straight nights turned to rotating 12 hour shift works, working both days and nights. It is a real challenge to do dogs on this schedule because there is no routine for the dog, or pretty much his routine is not having a routine. Being creative with rest days to line up what he needs with how I worked is always a struggle.
I got away from dex and fluid type pills after that as I could not time out their effectiveness on my schedule.
On the 12 hour night shifts it was similar to working straight nights I just flip flopped. I worked and fed the supplement in the morning and the main feeding happened about 8 hours later. It took a little while to dial in again. On 12 hour days I worked the dog in the evenings and fed a regular feeding. This throws the dog off a little so the next day is a rest day. The week I am on days he gets 1/2 the work and twice the rest. This is not ideal so I plan the keep around this week being early on and again late in the keep.
As how this pertains to recovery, I found the dogs do really well coming off a hard day with an extra days rest. With all the fuel and the extra rest the dog is busting at the seams on the next work day.
Based on my schedule I can peak the dog (wherever he is in his conditioning at that time) each week. I can load, and get up to and touching the over loaded line and feel comfortable knowing there is an extra day of rest built in for the next day.
On straight nights there were occasions when I would go to the dog and he did not meet me ripping and roaring to go. It is easy to type on here to give him a days rest but in the moment it is easier to put a little more on him. Sometimes that little more is too much. On the shift schedule I am forced to rest him an extra day about 4 times during 8 weeks of work.
EWO
No Quarter Kennel
05-28-2016, 07:28 AM
what kind of affect do you think Lasix, given about 6-8 hours prior to showtime, would have on a dog?
Saw a real good one, strong, hard mouth hog dog have this done to him. He overcome this, but I would love to hear thoughts on this
Ditto No Quarter Kennel. Could not at that moment remember the name of the drug Lasix. So called it a water pill,it does come that way. My blood pressure medication has Lasix added to it. I have to take every day a liquid Trace mineral/magnesium combo supplement. To counter act the muscle weaking effects of the lasix. Many other man made drugs remove precious minerals/vitamins/electrolytes from the body. The Less anyone uses of these meds the better off. Yet as we age many of these medication may be necessary.
If one today is using the lasix on their dogs. Adding this Trace mineral product might help with preserving the electrolytes lost.
The Predef 2X aqueus suspenion product took care of the excess moisture problem, plus much more. So in the keep or end of the keep. You did not have to dry out the dog with Dex/Lasix or other type water pulling drugs. When too much fluid is pulled to fast. Precious electrolytes come out as well.
How long did that dog have to perform? That hard mouth may have kept it out of enough trouble to put the other dog behind. Enough to over power the other dog and win.
Regardless of what I say or think. One has to put their dogs through as many prekeeps as possible and try these various things out. Only real way to know, what would work or not work for you. Any dog that is to be game tested should be put through a prekeep.
V.J. tried out Ozzie Stevens steroid keep and screwed up two of his male dogs. Yet he saw some great benefits along the way. So he just dialed it down to a very low minimal amount once a week mixed with vitamin B12. This helped the dog with faster recovery and kept dog in a anabolic state. By doing it that way did not put excessive muscle/fluids on the dog or bother the sex nature of the female dogs. Some dog men I knew that went all out with the steroids looking for a short cut to hard work. Stacked these steroids and dosages close to what a full grown man would use. Overtime proved to be a very bad idea.
Hard natural work and natural feed is always the safest way to go. When trying out new things, do them in a prekeep type scenario. One can learn so much more that way. Cheers
Ditto Frosty Paws. I agree own your Jenny work. I think of the jenny work like Don Mayfield compared it. A Wolf or Coyote out on the open plains dog trotting for miles.
One way to get a dog that wants to just run all out on a Jenny and not learning to rate itself. Is to put a heap of saw dust in the four North/South/East/West corners of the track. The dog will run hard,hit the saw dust pile and bog down. Pick up speed to next saw dust pile, bog down again. After a few turns of this or until the dog has broken the piles down some. Dog will usually slow down and do a steady dog trot from then on.
I also preferred a steady dog trot on the round table. With some occasional speed ups inspired by a rabbit in a cage. LOL One usually builds wind and stamina in a dog with the longer workouts of fast dog trotting from road work,Jenny work, or trotting on a extra large round table.
The anerobic conditioning part would come after the aerobic mill work. Doing the chain pull etc. like EWO describes. I agree with Lemm the mill maker about doing any type exercise with or without Steroids. To build up muscles on a dog like a body builder. Having a powerful strong dog comes best from the brood pen. I have never seen any 100% body builders do well in any boxing/collegiate wrestling/cage fighter events.
With all said, get the best exercise equipment one can afford and use on the amount of land mass one lives on. Then do prekeeps till you figure out what works best for your particular dogs and the surrounding environment the dogs live in. Overtime the way you skin a cat might be better than your competitor's method of cat skinning. LOL Cheers
Lasix/water pills work. The problem is that they work. Once given they will continue to work even to the point the dog has lost valuable fluid/electrolytes.
The timing and the individual dog at that point of his conditioning coupled with his current water content will all factor in to how well it works.
I'm not knocking on the pill, or the intent, as a lot of people have used it, but I would think if removing water by means of a pill that close to the show odds are one missed with the last 6/8 weeks of effort.
I'm not even sure how one would pre-keep practice with it as the dog is a completely different animal from Pre-keep to 8 week finished.
I thought about goin that route a few times and know people who have used them 24 hours out but I never felt comfortable with the accuracy of how much water one pill would remove. When the dog is worked down and fed down to an ideal weight he will hydrate himself adequately. He will in turn piss the excess naturally.
I have always been weary of upsetting that balance and him pissing himself to a lesser state of hydration.
EWO
Ditto EWO. Why, when ever I would mention the use of the PreDef 2X aqueous liquid medication. Was wise to do only a one event dog show. With a losing your forfeit clause for not being on time for the weigh in. Once a dog comes on point,this will only last for a short while. Every hour that passes the dog starts going stale.
Certain medications like the various steroids and the above mentioned medications like lasix. Will speed that process up. So at a point where it helps, over a certain time it starts to work against the dog's over all conditioning.
At multi dog shows, unless having the privilege to be first. All the dogs that followed,even if properly conditioned would come up to wet or to dry or not cleaned out properly. So some performed well while others did not. Sometimes to a point that the better dog lost to the lesser dog. Leaving thoughts of what just happened on many of these dog men's minds. Hear remarks like my dog has done better off the chain. Even to the point of feeling like their dog had been rubbed. When highly unlikely it had been.
My deceased friend Sonny Shropshire had worked a dog for Tar Heel Matt. Ozzie Stevens had come down and all of us got to personally spend some time with him. Sonny had used some of the Ozzie steroid keep on this dog. When I arrived at Sonny's place checked the dog over. Dog looked alright and I asked Sonny if he was going first. Said no was maybe third on the line up. I said well i hope your dog does not peak to early if other dog pulls go to long.
As Murphy's law would have it. We were in the motel room everything was quite and dog was in it's large shipping crate. We were all quietly talking,Sonny's mind on his coming up dog pull. All of a sudden that dog went bonkers and started rolling that crate across the floor. One of the darnedest things I had ever saw. Thought a Tasmanian devil had crawled up in that box. LOL
Sonny finally calmed the dog down and took it for a walk. When he returned the dog was not acting as sharp and alive as earlier when put up and took to the dog show site. Luck was with Sonny and his dog did win that night.
Was supposed to have been a private multi show. We abided with the rules of a limited number of persons per side. The guy that owned the building, was charging a gate fee, decided to invite half the town. Building was packed out with who knows who. Was glad to leave that place after Sonny won. Did not hang around for the rest of those dog pulls.
In closing only those who are big risk takers would participate or be around any multi dog shows today. Even back in the late 70's a FBI agent was attending most of the multi dog shows and even selling hand made dog harness etc. Cheers
FrostyPaws
05-29-2016, 08:45 PM
Lasix will deplete your dog of potassium. If given IV, it will also decrease your dogs blood pressure.
BRICKFACE
05-30-2016, 07:28 AM
Lasix will deplete your dog of potassium. If given IV, it will also decrease your dogs blood pressure.
Lasix given in pill or IV form has the same effect. The only difference is the speed at which the medication works and the IV form would have side effects such as lowering BP depending on how much water is taken off. Lasix will deplete potassium and if you are on a daily regimen then potassium supplements are recommended. Most important is the dosage (milligrams) given. The higher dose given the more water it will take off. A one time dose of Lasix should not affect the potassium level that much.
FrostyPaws
05-30-2016, 10:01 AM
Lasix given in pill or IV form has the same effect. The only difference is the speed at which the medication works and the IV form would have side effects such as lowering BP depending on how much water is taken off. Lasix will deplete potassium and if you are on a daily regimen then potassium supplements are recommended. Most important is the dosage (milligrams) given. The higher dose given the more water it will take off. A one time dose of Lasix should not affect the potassium level that much.
Both could drop the BP depending on the amount of fluid removed, but my experience is based around the IV administration of lasix. Dog's are habitually at a level of dehydration in their everyday life. Lasix is basically a bad idea no matter what the reasoning. A small amount of lasix can pull up to a liter of fluid from a person, much less what it will do to a dog that's already not hydrated as it should be. When you have that, you also run into the risk of possible dropping the sodium level. So much of it happens to depend on what the levels are in the dog before the drug is given, and if a person already has pulled some water from the dog, and lasix is given to pull off even more fluid? It's just a bad idea all the way around.
The factor that means the most is always a variable...the dog's actual water content/state of hydration to dehydration. If the dog is already dehydrated a Lasix dose would be a bad idea.
If the dog was really over hydrated there is no way to tell if he goes from hydrated to spot-on or he may even go past spot-on to de-hydrated. It is a real gamble.
I'm not a fan of variables. I'm trying to eliminate them all the way from day til the show. Sort of a control freak as its get closer. Lasix and exactly where the dog is at would add one I will never feel comfortable at that point.
EWO
FrostyPaws
05-30-2016, 11:21 PM
I've never thought giving lasix was a good idea, and the few people I've known that use it, I've always advised them against using it. It's a lot more potent than using dex for the same purposes, and everyone should learn how to remove water naturally before they begin experimenting with pharmaceutical help. Crawl before you walk people.
Ditto Frosty Paws. Very good advise.
Good post Frosty. You're a retard if you're experimenting with things mentioned in this thread in a keep without knowing how te remove excess fluids naturally. And if you know, still dont use the crap!!!!! It can help in a small dose if you're to far over 24 houres out. Same counts for steroids. Just dont, unless you got help from an expert using them on bulldogs. You're going to ruin a good dog. JMO
No Quarter Kennel
06-01-2016, 08:01 AM
I saw a different dog and believe it was related to the Lasix. He got it done in under 35, but he was not the same animal. Wasn't bad, but I know the dog very well. He was just a hair off and his mouth was a notch lower than normal.
I'm hoping these guys learned their lesson while enjoying the success. Rarely happens this way. Some lessons are hard learned.
bulldoghistorian
06-01-2016, 11:52 PM
also remember , the stuff sometimes works different per dog
what may work on one particular line or family might turn up to be have less or more effect on another line or dog