Hot litters

[BRICKFACE]

As a breeder do you have high hopes? Or know you might be on the right track when your pups turn on early?

Or is it an indication of future potential? but by no means is it a guarantee?

Is it all of the above? Or pups being pups?

You hear of dumb asses putting pups through the ringer and culling them before they mature. By two years that same pup could have been special in competent hands.

How do you rate hot litters?

[Nut]

IMO its no indication for potential at all.

[CrazyRed]

I don't rate them at all, I do compare and contrast with other litters from Sire/Dam to see if it's something that comes from both or just one or the other but other than that means nothing. I do also like to decipher what some might consider "hot" and what I consider "pups being pups." No matter what the breed most pups wrestle around and somewhat aggressive and develop who is dominant mentality etc, but our dogs are a bit more aggressive and maybe we expect it a little more.

I don't count pups wrestling as being any hotter than anything, but I've seen litters where they were absolutely trying to hurt each other. I mean no question, scratching into each other with intent to harm and those I consider hot litters but they get no extra ranking or juice from me. they don't get that until they hit about 2 years of age.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I believe there are many indicators of potential, ability and expectations from an early age. If he's hot as a pup, he's usually hot as an adult. Only time I see it not being indicative is the slow starter turning out good.

When puppies will literally kill one another 10 weeks of age, I believe, 100%, they will kill later on.

Two very very prominant Tx breeders were visiting one day. One was watching a litter of pups "play" that the other one had bred. He warned him if he didn't take that ball out of their pen, they would probably end up hurting each other over it. His reply - "There's not a ball in there".....Turned out to be the head of another pup. They were 9 weeks old. Entire litter turned out to be quite special.

Terrible story I know. Point is, they turned out how they started.

Lots of variables to consider as well. Who is raising the pups, stimuli, development, overall health, their comfort level, etc.

[FrostyPaws]

Pups that kill will NOT kill later on as adults. As someone who has raised numerous pups from various litters that killed a littermate, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that is not true. It doesn't indicate whether the litter will be good. The only thing it really indicates is that, as pups, someone got killed.

[gotap_d]

Pups that kill will NOT kill later on as adults. As someone who has raised numerous pups from various litters that killed a littermate, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that is not true. It doesn't indicate whether the litter will be good. The only thing it really indicates is that, as pups, someone got killed.

Frosty are you speaking of a litter of pups ganging up on and killing a smaller or weaker pup or are you talking about 1 pup that is on that if left with another pup will kill it?

[bstylekennels]

I think it does carry weight. I don't think it's a guarantee by no means but I do believe in percentages and more hot pups turn out to be good dogs be it box/brood or both than don't GRANTED he/she doesn't have an impatient/wreckless owner. I've seen it on my own yard and other fanciers yards. I feel a hot pup is like a hot head 16 yo athlete . They think they grown but they need maturing. There's been plenty young athletes on the professional level thought they were good but when they matured and listened to they "GOOD" coach they became great!

[FrostyPaws]

I'm talking about both, Gotap.

[FrostyPaws]

I think it does carry weight. I don't think it's a guarantee by no means but I do believe in percentages and more hot pups turn out to be good dogs be it box/brood or both than don't GRANTED he/she doesn't have an impatient/wreckless owner. I've seen it on my own yard and other fanciers yards. I feel a hot pup is like a hot head 16 yo athlete . They think they grown but they need maturing. There's been plenty young athletes on the professional level thought they were good but when they matured and listened to they "GOOD" coach they became great!

I don't think pups that act hot turn out to be better dogs personally, at least not strictly because they're hot. Two studs I had at one time always produced hot pups that grew into hot dogs. Another stud, I had at the same time, produced easy going pups all of the time. Pups that were easy enough you could leave them all in the pen for what seemed ages. They turned out to be completely opposite when grown. The hot pups, that turned into hot dogs, were hand over fist run off by the easy going pups that grew into easy going dogs. The difference simply was the one stud was a better producer than the other combined.

Genetics will determine such things.

[bstylekennels]

I don't think pups that act hot turn out to be better dogs personally, at least not strictly because they're hot. Two studs I had at one time always produced hot pups that grew into hot dogs. Another stud, I had at the same time, produced easy going pups all of the time. Pups that were easy enough you could leave them all in the pen for what seemed ages. They turned out to be completely opposite when grown. The hot pups, that turned into hot dogs, were hand over fist run off by the easy going pups that grew into easy going dogs. The difference simply was the one stud was a better producer than the other combined.

Genetics will determine such things.

Thanks for your interest in me frosty but it's unwanted. Why didn't you reply your feelings and emotions to the post? All I did was state my opinion on the subject just like you should've and not on my reply.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I don't believe it's guaranteed.
If they are hot young, they are more likely to be hot when older.
If they are shy, skittish and piss themselves when young, they are more likely to be that way when older.
None of the above is a guarantee and there are exceptions and rules and there are rules to the exceptions.

Me personally? I like a laid back pup that has a "calm" about him and a relaxed confident calm in his eyes - along with smarts. I also like some fire. For breeding good bulldogs - I like having both on my yard.

[FrostyPaws]

People and their feelings.

It's a messageboard Bstyle. There is no interest in you or your dogs whatsoever. I simply replied to your post. Nothing more or less.

[BRICKFACE]

Lol

[ragedog10]

I think a pup should act like a Lil replica of their breed. If u breed blood hounds ya pups should run around tracking, Collies should herd what ever is around them. Bulldawgs should act as small bulldawgs be it hot or calm when it come to play they should act as such.
Some just have a Lil more spunk to them but their chances are just the same as any other pup from his or her litter and that of a more calm litter. Best thing about this is you get to sit back and enjoy pups being pups and replicating the bloodlines and or breed!

We have had "hot" litters that all have turned out great,we have also have bred a calmer litter with same results.
When the blood is pure and kept to its breed standard you will see your pup display these traits early on .
I see that these traits can get lost in pup from various breeds when they are bred down thru dawgs that have not been bred or kept to a standard or not allowed to preform that breeds purpose for multiple generations. Those litters lack what that breed is know for as far as some PUPS show traits early! This does not mean they won't click on to be exactly what they are bred on.

[EWO]

It has no bearing or no impact on the dogs later in life.

It is a lot like comparing early starters to late bloomers on show night. So many routes to get there.

The Mims Redboy/Snooty and Snooty/Red Boy dogs on average start early. At least 1 or 2 will have to be separated early. The last litter Hatchett had Star down by the throat with nothing but ill intentions. I had to separate them that day. From that point on Hatchet was a grown dog, or at least in part of his mind he was a grown dog. Star has been the same way, maybe a degree or two short of her brother.

This is just about typical with this family. Then there are the exceptions. DTA/Mims CH Charie, 2XW Joker, 2XW Bo, 2XW Polly, CH Henry, 1XW Preacher, 2XW/1XL Hanky, and Bobby (no teeth but would have ranked real high) all were really slow to start. Charlie was just about 3, the repeat breeding produced Polly who was the same but their sister Holly and Dolly were nut jobs from the get. Henry won his first after 3.

EWO

[No Quarter Kennel]

I did not interpret this thread as one of early or late starting. I took it as will pups be what they show early.

[Thunder98]

I don't think it's a guarantee to win a race.... but you may have racers on hand...chances are if they are hot and active as pups, and brought up health and right,.the hot ones have a chance...not to take anything away from the laid back pups as their chances are the same...at the same time I've seen fight crazy pups stop being fight crazy because of the owner...I say give it time...

[brokeback]

Some of the hottest ones are the quickest to quit. It makes no difference what so ever. Only my opinion, of course.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Some of the earliest starters are aces. Some are curs. Fuck its bulldog 101. The more you know about your blood the more you can bank on certain things. However, early behavior is more times indicative of later behavior more times than not

[BLADE]

There are exceptions to every rule but it is my opinion that pups being hot or not doesn't determine wether or not they will be a Bulldog. I've owned hot pups that acted as good a man could ask for and even though they were sat on ended up nothing more than rank curs. With that being said I've also owned dogs that as pups were hot and ended up being solid adults. In my honest opinion wether a pup is hot or not, all it means is you have a good acting pup or a laid back pup, nothing more. When the time comes the real truth will come out. Cream always rises to the top.

[brokeback]

Some of the earliest starters are aces. Some are curs. Fuck its bulldog 101. The more you know about your blood the more you can bank on certain things. However, early behavior is more times indicative of later behavior more times than not
LOL That's your opinion and you've made that clear. Why get worked up when others have a different opinion? Fuck. LOL

[Thunder98]

If I'm looking at a good or hot litter just give me a pup...lol its left up to me to develop.the pup...I don't understand the unsociable type ..they're bulldogs all in all. Maybe he just has to be separated. For me what I see are the variables in between the time the pup is being developed.

[Thinker]

Hot pups don't mean he or she will have the talent or skills to win.!!!

[BRICKFACE]

I consider anything under 1 year a pup. If they decide at a young age to be separated, well you have to respect the game...and develop the talent!

[EWO]

I refer to them as puppies for much longer. And it is a bonus plan when they will live together for a little extra time. I don't put a lot of stock in it in the long term but it does give the warm fuzzies to see them fire up early on.

The last litter I had was fine til the last two were together. Three and four in the pen all was fine. Down to two and it looked like both were trying to establish themselves. 12 weeks and they were taking hold like grown dogs with bad intentions. Stayed mad for a long time after they were separated. The male has been 'grown' since then, or at least he acts that way.

EWO

[BRICKFACE]

After a year I call them yearlings, still puppies IMO

[Palooka]

regardless of the breed i'm working with , I've always believe in the old adage that " the good ones shine early" ,personally i like early starters, obviously thats not to say they'll turn out any better than others but its nice to know you have one that will work, though of course you need the common sense to hold it back. i kept 3 out of a recent litter at 12 weeks old the most reserved male damaged the other two so severely, that they had to be pts, i'm wasnt very happy about losing two pups but i'm damned pleased to have him.

[Thunder98]

Out of the 6 I have 2 had to be completely taken away from the rest and placed on chain. The female I have gets alone with none of them,she seems to dislike them all after a few seconds... The three males left in the pen get alone so so...the problem now is they double team the black pup...they for some reason all hate him....guess he is the black sheep so to speak...though he is the instigator.. Its time to separate them all...1 o'clock 3 o'clock 6 o'clock they are at it....sleep all day in the heat...i look at them being just pups but getting older.
Its been fun watching them grow I have to admit...I don't know what all this means ...they are just pups right now...

[Thunder98]

Out of the 6 I have 2 had to be completely taken away from the rest and placed on chain. The female I have gets alone with none of them,she seems to dislike them all after a few seconds... The three males left in the pen get alone so so...the problem now is they double team the black pup...they for some reason all hate him....guess he is the black sheep so to speak...though he is the instigator.. Its time to separate them all...1 o'clock 3 o'clock 6 o'clock they are at it....sleep all day in the heat...i look at them being just pups but getting older.
Its been fun watching them grow I have to admit...I don't know what all this means ...they are just pups right now...

[SGC]

Out of the 6 I have 2 had to be completely taken away from the rest and placed on chain. The female I have gets alone with none of them,she seems to dislike them all after a few seconds... The three males left in the pen get alone so so...the problem now is they double team the black pup...they for some reason all hate him....guess he is the black sheep so to speak...though he is the instigator.. Its time to separate them all...1 o'clock 3 o'clock 6 o'clock they are at it....sleep all day in the heat...i look at them being just pups but getting older.
Its been fun watching them grow I have to admit...I don't know what all this means ...they are just pups right now...

Don't wait too long to separate them...

An old terrier man told me a long time ago, "kennel three, bury one..." of course he was talking about working terriers but it is the same idea.

[Del]

Kennel 3 bury one
Never heard that before
Is it open to interpitation or wat does it mean

[SGC]

Kennel 3 bury one
Never heard that before
Is it open to interpitation or wat does it mean

The old fellow meant if you kennel 3 terriers together, they will fight and 2 will kill the 3rd one... he said 2 would not be as apt to fight.

I would not recommend kenneling any 2 or 3 bulldogs together, this was quoted to me about working terriers.

[Thunder98]

Yeah your right SGC it's time to give them there own space. I don't want this to get out of hand.

[lansford101]

It's a pain in the ass takes up way more kennel space when they come out crazy

[CrazyRed]

Buddy of mine had a litter of 6, 4 males and 2 females. Well the 2 females had to be taken out by 6 weeks, the 4 males got along for a very long time they stayed kennel buddies til about 5 months and even up to a 18 months old they could still be around each other playing and not harming each other. After he started peekin at them he never let them be around each other but the one male ended up in the house in which they had a Jack Russell and they were buddies.. Well the 2 females, 1 quit cold turkey in about 22.. The other showed well before being sold in which she caught 1 and then got retired to brood.. The males, were 4 of the gamest dogs I ever seen.. 1 became a 2x before losing his 3rd in over 2 hours in which he was on bottom the entire time but kept scratching and kept coming and my buddy decided when he came back to even it up that he would let him scratch one more time then pick up. He had to make decision, leave him down to win and lose a game dog or pick up and take a game dog home. 2. Lost his 1st time out in a game effort, he didn't make it but that was part of my buddies kennel partner's fault, my buddy was away working when call got made. His KP who we never seen shape the dog took him and shaped him, at 34 he came in at 32.5, and the other came in 35 (well we have a saying that won't no 16oz of water make you lose a show but at same time this ain't 16oz this is almost 3lbs) we begged him to take FF and go home bc his charge wasn't even on weight I attempted to contact my buddy but to no avail. Well from the start we could see H wasn't healthy nor was he in good shape at all, immediately took bottom but worked his tail off til he couldn't make the count at 1:06 but good gracious he sure was trying, they couldn't save him. 3 Won his first with ease, probably was 2nd fave out of the litter, he ran through the comp in 18 and his 2nd he was doing pretty much the same when at 25 a snap on the nose took the whole thing off and pulled his face down, well the boy kept working, my buddy picked up at 30 bc it wasn't pretty.. He courtesy and screamed the whole time. We had a mirror behind us trying to fix his face and he looked and seen it then tried scratching. he healed up pretty good with a new face, too much to hold on the yard so got bred 3x and he was sold. We kept all 17 pups that Bingo produced and he threw very well, out of the 17 I only remember one quitting, rest of them were all good dogs he produced 2 Chs and a host of 1 & 2x.. My buddy wanted to buy him back but soon as we tried locating him we got a call they took him out because he was so crazy and still relatively young being a little over 4 when they did him.. Well he took 3 hours but got it done. 4. The last of the litter was kept in the house til 3 years old, was as friendly as teacup yorkie. We had a young who we wasn't sure if he would start so we let Magic go over and to our shock he went to work. We stopped, came back 2 months later and gave him a real look on a hound that was a 1x we were excited about, pushing 2lb magic dispatched of him. We put him out there, 1st he won easily in 31 and 2nd he went up a weight class from 35 to 38 and took 1:48 but he would not be deterred. He pulled it out on one unbelievable scratch. Was retired and got bred a few times because we liked him and because of success of his brother.. Magic produced pretty good not as high % as his brother of dogs who didn't quit but his offspring definitely had more ability. My buddy went through some tough times with his family and end up falling away from the game for a few years. We kept a few around but Magic was given to me and at the time I just didn't have yard space to breed him much because already had 3 winners on the yard who weren't getting bred enough, he did become my house dog until he passed.

[Thunder98]

Your right landsford101, it is crunk on the yard...that was my whole deal.. I had been placing them out letting them get use to being tied out so that helped with them being use to it ...I keep the female in the house ,she's good with the family. Also I used the crate and rotate to get them crate trained and use to it ...working good so far. Problem now is the heat or bark at each other like crazy.. I place bark collars on the older dogs to tone it down a bit....I just need a good system for feed time...they go nuts at that time..
Great read Crazy Red...sounds like a good group...

[bossman311]

As a breeder do you have high hopes? Or know you might be on the right track when your pups turn on early?

Or is it an indication of future potential? but by no means is it a guarantee?

Is it all of the above? Or pups being pups?

You hear of dumb asses putting pups through the ringer and culling them before they mature. By two years that same pup could have been special in competent hands.

How do you rate hot litters?
I'm New to this site but old to bulldogs.
Been around them for most of my life over 40yrs. I was the 1st inspector, judge & state rep for the AAPBA in the late 90's in Colorado. I wrote an article before in a magazine the ADBA Gazette yrs ago Starting from Scratch based on breeding's.
All of that is to say this.
I am one of those dumb asses you are talking about culling before they mature LOL.
That's what dog men should do if they are responsible & not peddling.
You know when folks get on my level everything you know is different from what others think.
If a pup shows defaults YOU CULL. Why would you hold onto a pup with a birth defect?
But others reasons for culling young dogs are simple. It goes with what I said about my level. It took me well over 2 decades & going thru whole litters to gain the knowledge of my family.
A knowledge that most never seen nor will see. Breeding for specific styles & age of when to see the styles.
So far you'll see my name 12-15 generations in the dogs I feed. That's knowing each dog,belly mate & 1/2 siblings to that dog you see in the pedigree, not just the dog in the pedigree. I went different directions from start to current in breeding with these dogs. Owning dogs for 40yrs in one thing . Breeding dogs is another. You can own only 4 dogs & have seen only 4 generations in 40yrs if you wait until they are 10yrs old to breed. You can have seen 5 times as many if you breed them @ 2 yrs old when they are old enough to compete with. It's up to you but each way gives different knowledge of dogs, breeding's & bloodline.
I have yet to shake hands with some one who has handled more dogs per generation . Not to say they don't exist but to say I haven't met one.
After 4 generations you know the basics of your family. How old to see what in them & what to look for. You just know. After 8 strait generations you can tell long before that dog is 1 which direction it's going. You just can. But once you have personally handled 12-15 generations I could tell you by sex ,color, early behavior & parents what to expect by what age in most cases without needing to see the dog.
This is not something someone with 6 or 7 may try but someone with 12-15 generations knows.
They more you actually see ,hands on, the less you guess .
To do this means to be & stay consistent. 12 generations of head dogs that start up before 1 yr old won't go rear end & late starters over night.
Not every dog turns out, they just don't no matter what or how you breed, but the ones that do, no worries.
If my dogs don't have it in them @ a certain age then it's no wise to waste time on them.
Allot have came off the bitch on fire & stayed like that there whole lives & past it on gen-gen.
I breed working dogs.
Not papers ,not tittles & never names of breeders.
Working dogs.
Hope don't mind me putting up different peds, but once again "NEW" to this site & have far too many dogs to create a ped in a few days.
Example of @ least 12 strait but 14 hands on generations.
The only true knowledge is hands on knowledge.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=574954

[bossman311]

One more thing.
Most I started out with bred for themselves.
Themselves. They kept the peds on how they were bred to themselves.
They only bred to replace what they needed .
If they only needed 2 or 3 that's all they kept yet none left there yards.
Why let your competition get what you feed to beat you with if no one can beat you?
Never leave behind what you have so your enemy can beat you with it type of menatlity.
I would think a little bit more about culling & why people do what they do.

[EWO]

How did the Holland Lady Bird dog produce? I see her top and bottom in that pedigree. Ms. Lady bird?

EWO

[EWO]

Heard this a lot and have seen it often. Two little guys start scrapping and which ever one goes down, male or female, another brother/sister piles on.

The first litter I raised off of Mims Bonnie were fiery little pups. They pretty much had a rule amongst themselves. Fight all you want just do not lay down. If one of those pups 'took the bottom' the brothers and sisters would make him pay. It took a couple three days to figure out the troublemaker/instigator and once she was removed the other four lived well together.

I think with puppies just about any scenario imaginable can become a reality. Puppies being separated early has no direct link to one becoming a show dog. And the puppy that sits over in the corner minding his own business may not always be that way.

Purepower's Skull was the laziest dog that ever lived. From a puppy to three years old. He moved to eat, piss and shit. Any other time he was asleep. Like that from a puppy. He had to be removed because from 5-6 weeks on he was that litter's punching bag. He went to a pet home with a guy who raised a lot of our pups. He was not in the dogs per se, but he loved to work and play with them til they turned on. Then we would get them back. Socialized and a willing worker. He sent this dog back because he would do nothing but sleep. I kept him til he was 2. Zero effort. No interest. I traded him for another. There he showed zero interest and was bred once as a cold dog. He went to another place and was treated miserably. Damn near starved to death, living in shit and filth. His last owner gave that shit head two choices. One, I am taking the dog. Two, I'm beating your ass for what you have done to this dog and then I am taking the dog. He chose the first option.
Skull must have felt some sort of appreciation because as soon as he was healthy he was a monster. He won 4. Beat 2 champs. And he went over 2 hours twice. He was three before his schooling started and won his last match at 5. I m not sure if he were a late bloomer or he just seen the light. In the end he was all bulldog. In the beginning he was huddled in the corner just minding his own.

EWO




Kennel 3 bury one
Never heard that before
Is it open to interpitation or wat does it mean

[bossman311]

Only kept Flame for a little while . She had a lot of heart. Not to smart but heart. Guy who got her from me like her allot & says she's a little more smarter. I seen Lady bird once & what caught my eye was that she was smart for a red boy dog. Gameness still there but smart with a decent mouth.

[Nut]

Good story EWO. I dont have good experience with the hot dogs from litters.

[EWO]

Her brother Bobby was a match quality dog. He could really shut it down. He was rough and bit way harder than his pedigree would suggest. The way he looked, acted and showed he was down out of the Vernon Jackson dogs Mr. Holland had.

I had a female out of her brother Bobby that ended up winning once. She was a game dog with pretty good mouth, really intense and stayed in the face.

We bred her once to her half brother and I have a male out of that. Next litter she got off the chain and the guy lost her.

Saw the name in the pedigree.

good post.

'EWO





Only kept Flame for a little while . She had a lot of heart. Not to smart but heart. Guy who got her from me like her allot & says she's a little more smarter. I seen Lady bird once & what caught my eye was that she was smart for a red boy dog. Gameness still there but smart with a decent mouth.

[bossman311]

Her brother Bobby was a match quality dog. He could really shut it down. He was rough and bit way harder than his pedigree would suggest. The way he looked, acted and showed he was down out of the Vernon Jackson dogs Mr. Holland had.

I had a female out of her brother Bobby that ended up winning once. She was a game dog with pretty good mouth, really intense and stayed in the face.

We bred her once to her half brother and I have a male out of that. Next litter she got off the chain and the guy lost her.

Saw the name in the pedigree.

good post.

'EWO

Good stuff EWO

[Thunder98]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=54274
This litter is around 7 1/2 months ,,,, for a first gen...breeding I'm honestly liking what I see.....
Very pleased so far....

[Frank43]

I don't believe it's guaranteed.
If they are hot young, they are more likely to be hot when older.
If they are shy, skittish and piss themselves when young, they are more likely to be that way when older.
None of the above is a guarantee and there are exceptions and rules and there are rules to the exceptions.

Me personally? I like a laid back pup that has a "calm" about him and a relaxed confident calm in his eyes - along with smarts. I also like some fire. For breeding good bulldogs - I like having both on my yard.


Good to know

[Frank43]

Heard this a lot and have seen it often. Two little guys start scrapping and which ever one goes down, male or female, another brother/sister piles on.

The first litter I raised off of Mims Bonnie were fiery little pups. They pretty much had a rule amongst themselves. Fight all you want just do not lay down. If one of those pups 'took the bottom' the brothers and sisters would make him pay. It took a couple three days to figure out the troublemaker/instigator and once she was removed the other four lived well together.

I think with puppies just about any scenario imaginable can become a reality. Puppies being separated early has no direct link to one becoming a show dog. And the puppy that sits over in the corner minding his own business may not always be that way.

Purepower's Skull was the laziest dog that ever lived. From a puppy to three years old. He moved to eat, piss and shit. Any other time he was asleep. Like that from a puppy. He had to be removed because from 5-6 weeks on he was that litter's punching bag. He went to a pet home with a guy who raised a lot of our pups. He was not in the dogs per se, but he loved to work and play with them til they turned on. Then we would get them back. Socialized and a willing worker. He sent this dog back because he would do nothing but sleep. I kept him til he was 2. Zero effort. No interest. I traded him for another. There he showed zero interest and was bred once as a cold dog. He went to another place and was treated miserably. Damn near starved to death, living in shit and filth. His last owner gave that shit head two choices. One, I am taking the dog. Two, I'm beating your ass for what you have done to this dog and then I am taking the dog. He chose the first option.
Skull must have felt some sort of appreciation because as soon as he was healthy he was a monster. He won 4. Beat 2 champs. And he went over 2 hours twice. He was three before his schooling started and won his last match at 5. I m not sure if he were a late bloomer or he just seen the light. In the end he was all bulldog. In the beginning he was huddled in the corner just minding his own.

EWO

I wonder about stuff like this too. How much can you tell about pups when they are young. I know the balance changes as they age. I know what bossman is saying when he says you raise pups and see them as adults you know your line better. Thats why I don't understand people line hopping so much but to each his own. I like where I am for now.

Most people talk about aggression and hotness in pups. I watch litters to see what pups do. I notice the pup that wanders off by himself and starts working a rug hanging on a rail like a spring pole. I notice the pup that tries to take a bone from his dad and get popped. then goes back to take the bone again. I look a lot at tail position. out of a litter of nine I saw five I wanted. I owed a friend so I gave him what I felt was the second dominant female in the group. I look at tail position a lot. From the parents I had the more reserved on was the killer. I watch and see tail position. One pup I liked was so small compared to his brothers and sisters but his tail was always flagging. his sister was the same way. she was always more athletic. the first to climb the stairs and used to always wander off with her mom one on one and leave the rest of the pups. She could be punishing. Once her brothers were placed I got reports they all came out of their shells. Like they were being suppressed by her and the little male. There was a third pup out that litter. He wasn't shy he used to always be over on his own. His mother was kind of aloof too. This pup would never start problems with the other pups in the litter. I never saw one of the pups in the litter start things with him and come out on the top of the exchange. Maybe this matters and maybe it doesn't. the little pup will follow you naturally and works hard like his dad. he was so unathletic when he was little the sister I kept used to beat him up. He works. He followed naturally and I think hes like his dad where he would try his best to follow you even if he died in the process. We went for a bike ride the other day. about halfway through he starts working hard and running faster like he was getting stronger. when the wrestle now he wears her out with persistence, energy and perseverance. I wonder if in the end he ends up being a really solid dog. because if you look at his puppy characteristics he didn't start shit, didn't take shit and was willing to work. The reserved brother I parked. I think he's a mix of smart and stubborn. He won't walk for shit. he will come to you went he knows you. Hes with my dad now. he will go behind him and steal the tools hes working with. I think its a sign of intelligence and playing. He was never an aggressive dog. something tells me when he turns on he will be a beast. just hard to train how I like to train but he is his mother in a ox strong package. I have limited space and time. I just wonder how many times you have a set of characteristics you value breeding towards. How many times you go with your guy are you wrong and how many are you right. Most of the pups I like never are the ones to just start shit. They usually end up on top if someone else starts it.

[North Strong]

@Frank

Basically, I can say the majority of people who breed and KEEP the litters look for the same things, but we tend to misinterpret what we want with what we think.
One can not be a "little pregnant" so we will see a lot of things in a pups actions BUT make excuses to OURSELVES.
Now I can tell you with certainty that some pups have been real hermits, never barked at a dog and actually played with curs but once placed in the squared circle become a complete beast.
I've seen and owned one that actually would watch with his head on the wall of the box 2 going at it, but not jump in.
When told/asked if he wants to go...as if you are taking him out for a walk he would start to scream and cry .... The best part is he would (at times) jump over the wall in the middle of the box and turn and look at the closet corner, run to the corner and turn without stopping and scratch right back at a dog.... It's as if he knew he must start from the corner and always have to scratch from a corner.
This was not your regular dog but then again, none of these dogs are regular.
Seen one go just over 3 hrs to a draw, stop 17 mins in his next.
Live Love and Learning..... these dogs.

North Strong.