what would you do with this?

[ceasar]

I have a litter of 9 pups that are 4 weeks old. The sire and dame are family bred and the BREEDER has been breeding this family a very long time

where I could use some advise from you gentlemen, and hopefully some of you breeders will chime in. 7 of the pups are representative in their markings and or coloration of what this line has produced over those years. But 2 look just like a dog that is way back in both peds. he is the son of one of the all time greats in the breed,and produced some damn fine animals himself. he was not the original out-cross his famous father was.

the male the pups look like can be found in the sire of my litters ped - 1x in the 5th gen - 2x in the 6th gen-and 1x in the 7th gen. in the dames ped he can be found 4x in the 7th gen.
when I did the ped analysis this dog has a granddaughter at 30% and a daughter at just under 28% in the ped.

The sire of my litter is extremely inbreed around the dog that this family is known for. so much so we wondered if we should do the breeding.( not sure if that helps or not but thought it may need to be included)

After that long winded explanation. My question is this. would you guys consider only the pups that look like what the family has shown over time to produce or would you take a chance on these two pups. I ask because I can only keep 3 of the nine here with me. 2 more will be with family near by, due to the fact I also have other dogs, and the owner of the sire will get pups as well. I know color doesn't matter. but i'm trying to build my yard, and i'm doing all the research i can, to try and not make that one mistake that I will always wind up regretting.

pups that don't stay will be leaving at 6-weeks.

Any and all thoughts are appreciated.

[FrostyPaws]

I wish I could help you with this. The reason I can't help is every breeding we ever did, with the exception of maybe 5, we kept every pup from every litter. I wouldn't base anything around production on pups that look like the family.

[Nut]

Its nothing but colour imo

[bossman311]

To breed for performance you can only pic the best after you have seen each & every one of them perform reguardless of colors.
Period! Anything else is BS & basing on peds & colors.
To pick & base a pup soley on colors only you must understand the Gregor Mendal therory & Punett squares 1st.

Which means that different generations may look like one carry same genes,look like other carry genes & traits,look like one but carry another genes & traits as domninant trait & so on.

The further back in a ped the dog resembles, most of time he may still carry others in front genes.
THESE ARE YOUR HYBREDS.

Dogs take more after grand parents than parents in most cases but the furthre back to the 4th generation, the greater the chance it's a hybred of all not a dupulicate of one.
Read & study putnett Squares & The Monk Gregor Mendal & you'll answer your own questions about that.

[loot]

No way to answer that. I would just pick the one's you like. Good luck

[ceasar]

well, I did say that i'm aware color doesn't matter. no i'm not basing on ped and color. I know what theses dogs background is and they come from some damn fine animals. I also understand there are no guarantees. JACK would say he no doubt could pick the best pups from a litter at an early age. I like most people don't have that ability.

I guess this is what I was trying to get at. since there is no way of knowing for at least another year and a half - to two years which ones were the better dogs. would my safest bet be to keep the pups that at this age look like what the family is known to produce. rather than take a chance on these two dogs that don't look anything like any of the dogs I have seen produced by this line in 20 years. and believe me I have went through a lot of peds and litters, trying to find something that resembles these two.
BOSSMAN your post did help some. the one dog I was speaking of that these two resemble I should have just asked if it was possible, since they look so much like him if they carry more of his genetic make up, since he was a outcross their traits would be different from the family i'm breeding around.
anyway like I said, it's not about picking the best at this early age or what color they are. it's simply what some thought would be the safest route for me at this time.

In the end it probably was not the best idea to ask, other people what they thought about what i'm trying to accomplish.
And I probably could have been a little clearer in what I was asking.
lesson well taught, lesson well learned.
ps. if someone could explain in more detail about the hybreds (hybrids) and if they have a place in a breeding program without being offended that may also be helpful in the future.

[bossman311]

well, I did say that i'm aware color doesn't matter. no i'm not basing on ped and color. I know what theses dogs background is and they come from some damn fine animals. I also understand there are no guarantees. JACK would say he no doubt could pick the best pups from a litter at an early age. I like most people don't have that ability.

I guess this is what I was trying to get at. since there is no way of knowing for at least another year and a half - to two years which ones were the better dogs. would my safest bet be to keep the pups that at this age look like what the family is known to produce. rather than take a chance on these two dogs that don't look anything like any of the dogs I have seen produced by this line in 20 years. and believe me I have went through a lot of peds and litters, trying to find something that resembles these two.
BOSSMAN your post did help some. the one dog I was speaking of that these two resemble I should have just asked if it was possible, since they look so much like him if they carry more of his genetic make up, since he was a outcross their traits would be different from the family i'm breeding around.
anyway like I said, it's not about picking the best at this early age or what color they are. it's simply what some thought would be the safest route for me at this time.

In the end it probably was not the best idea to ask, other people what they thought about what i'm trying to accomplish.
And I probably could have been a little clearer in what I was asking.
lesson well taught, lesson well learned.
ps. if someone could explain in more detail about the hybreds (hybrids) and if they have a place in a breeding program without being offended that may also be helpful in the future.

I have been breeding working dogs for over 40 yrs.
There is not a single person on here with more hands on experience.
I have turned a few dogs into more than one family strain of dogs.
More than most who have wrote books or been written about.
Those that haven't the 16 generation hands on experience as I have.
I have bred over 100 litters in my time & went thru all of them.
Most these days don't even have a clue about Punnett squares or Gregor Mandal.
It does not take 18 months -2 yrs to know a dog .
If you have hands on experienece with each generation for more than 4 generations you should know it like the back of your hand.

Selling the most dogs to the public & actually working the most dogs you feed & breed or two complete different things.
That's what pedigree shows & nothing else.

There are guarentees when if you get on the level oh having hands on with 4-8 strait generations or more. You just have to get on that level.

If someone has that many & still doesn't have a clue about how they will turn out than they are just cluelss period.

If you have actual concern & want actual facts & results then here is you true answer.

Personal hands on experience & can tell you what is what before even breeding pair with more hands on experience per dog ,per generation than any one on here.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=57855

[ceasar]

I have been breeding working dogs for over 40 yrs.
There is not a single person on here with more hands on experience.
I have turned a few dogs into more than one family strain of dogs.
More than most who have wrote books or been written about.
Those that haven't the 16 generation hands on experience as I have.
I have bred over 100 litters in my time & went thru all of them.
Most these days don't even have a clue about Punnett squares or Gregor Mandal.
It does not take 18 months -2 yrs to know a dog .
If you have hands on experienece with each generation for more than 4 generations you should know it like the back of your hand.

Selling the most dogs to the public & actually working the most dogs you feed & breed or two complete different things.
That's what pedigree shows & nothing else.

There are guarentees when if you get on the level oh having hands on with 4-8 strait generations or more. You just have to get on that level.

If someone has that many & still doesn't have a clue about how they will turn out than they are just cluelss period.

If you have actual concern & want actual facts & results then here is you true answer.

Personal hands on experience & can tell you what is what before even breeding pair with more hands on experience per dog ,per generation than any one on here.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=57855
That's a beautiful thing BOSSMAN.
I applaud your accomplishments.
Takes a lot of dedication.
I obviously am not at that level. hence the reason for asking the question. I may never reach that level, but understand this. I am an extremely determined individual.
I try, and learn something about these dogs every day. been a member of the site for almost a year and have only made 11 post. That's because I spend more time reading old threads than running my mouth. When I deem it necessary to ask questions, that's exactly what i'm going to do. some people may be shamed or bashed into giving up,
but I will never go quietly into the night.
I am here to stay. I promise you this... myself and my dogs will eventually be heard from. Anyway can't let the sun shine on my treestand before I get my ass in it.

[EWO]

Twenty years ago I would say color means nothing, and is no indicator of anything. Today however, in the family of dogs I prefer, there has been two constants. 1. If they are born brown/black brindle they will knock their own teeth out by 12 months. 2. And more importantly, they will throw a really high percentage of bulldogs in every litter, bred back toward the family or crossed again. And even a 3rd. The crossed up brindled pups grow up to throw bulldogs.

I do not know why. They pop up and whether they are heavy on the Snooty or heavy on the Red Boy the wreck their hardware but throw bulldogs. I have used this line I swiped from an older fellow, "If bred to a German Shepard I'd bet on one at least one time".

EWO

[ceasar]

Twenty years ago I would say color means nothing, and is no indicator of anything. Today however, in the family of dogs I prefer, there has been two constants. 1. If they are born brown/black brindle they will knock their own teeth out by 12 months. 2. And more importantly, they will throw a really high percentage of bulldogs in every litter, bred back toward the family or crossed again. And even a 3rd. The crossed up brindled pups grow up to throw bulldogs.

I do not know why. They pop up and whether they are heavy on the Snooty or heavy on the Red Boy the wreck their hardware but throw bulldogs. I have used this line I swiped from an older fellow, "If bred to a German Shepard I'd bet on one at least one time".

EWO

Interesting.I'll listen to anyone, put I really prefer the more modern active dogmen.
with all the science that is involved now. no disrespect to old timers, they most times just seem to be stuck in the old ways. thanks, EWO another piece to the puzzle.