Conditioning a dog UP TO WEIGHT??

Anyone have info on conditioning a performance dog up to its ideal match weight instead of the typical ,conditioning downward to match weight.Ive heard Mr.don maloney used to do this but through my research & study I cant find solid proof if anyone has experience please respond.a.Also heard fatbill did this before...would the keep change?etc?

[luvmybulldogs]

A friend of mine always tells me about the Fat Bill video that he had that took you through both... says it was very informative and wishes he could get another one. Im not sure if one of the ones that you can purchase now or not but if it is my buddy swears the information has been edited.

[Bojacc357]

Fat Bill's $100 keep video

[BulldogConnection]

It's called the $100 keep. Some of it is good, a lot is outdated. Not as outdated as some of these keeps from the 60s and 70s but still definitely shows its age.

[bad dog]

doesn't that keep recommend cornflakes in the diet? lol

[BulldogConnection]

doesn't that keep recommend cornflakes in the diet? lol

Yes. Also outdated as its use has been trumped by the supplements available today but it is still being used. The cornflakes was fed as a cheap plentiful supply of glycogen/carbs that was already cooked and easier to be broken down.

[Blackfoot]

Its funny that cornflakes are used in keeps today by top active dogmen. Actually going to try it in my next keep!

[Earl Tudor]

Its funny that cornflakes are used in keeps today by top active dogmen. Actually going to try it in my next keep!
I think you mean USE TO be used by the top active dogmen Most active kennels are using something much lower on the glycemic index for their carb source.

[Blackfoot]

Its funny that cornflakes are used in keeps today by top active dogmen. Actually going to try it in my next keep!
I think you mean USE TO be used by the top active dogmen Most active kennels are using something much lower on the glycemic index for their carb source.

No, I meant that they are STILL being used in todays keeps! Many have suggested to me using brown rice, rolled oats and yams as a better choice and I have tried brown rice and rolled oats. But there are top knls and dogmen that stick to corn flakes for whatever reason and have been successful with corn flakes on the menu.

[Officially Retired]

No, I meant that they are STILL being used in todays keeps! Many have suggested to me using brown rice, rolled oats and yams as a better choice and I have tried brown rice and rolled oats. But there are top knls and dogmen that stick to corn flakes for whatever reason and have been successful with corn flakes on the menu.

You keep confusing two elements, namely: the fact that some people do 'x' in their keeps with the idea that x is 'best' to do.

Just because some people do x does not mean x is 'best' to do.

To show how utterly silly this idea is, consider the fact that I personally know an old man who has been involved with more high-end dog matches than virtually dogman alive today. He has made, or been involved with, more Champions and Grand Champions than Crenshaw, Ozzie Stevens, STP, etc., and he has used dogs that themselves won more matches (8x, 9x, and 10x winners) that anything either of these "famous dogmen" have been involved with, etc. You probably don't know this man, because he has never "reported" one single match since his career began in the mid-60s, but trust me when I tell you he has been more active than those 3 famous dogmen put together. Do you know what this man feeds? Do you want me to reveal all of his "secrets to success?" Here they are:

His secret feed keep is SportsMix kibble, calf's liver, and a can of Veg-All vegetables. That's it.
Do you know what his secret to conditioning is? He pays his toothless nephew M. to handwalk the hell out of the dog and he chains the dog on a 15' heavy chain at the side of a steep hill.
No supplements, no running, no treadmill, no flirt pole, etc.
Oh, and his secret "after care" med bag consists of penicillin and dex.
That is his big 'secret keep'.

Now then, I don't think anyone believes that "Feeding Sports Mix, liver, and vegetables is the best thing to feed a dog in keep!" :rolleyes:
Nor should anyone be so clueless as to believe the goofy idea that, "Paying toothless nephews to walk your dog is the best way to condition!" :lol:
Nor would I ever make the ridiculous claim that "Penicillin and dex are the best things to bring in a med bag!", either ;)

Therefore, a person has to have the basic sense to be able to attribute the right things to a man's success, as well as to be able to clearly see and discard elements that have nothing to do with it. That being said, it is just as silly to attribute the feeding of 'corn flakes' to any man's success in the pit as it is to believe the idea that 'penicillin and dex' are the best drugs a man can fill his med box with :D

The truth is, the old man won so many matches because he selected for THE two most important elements to any match, which are:

1) He brought the better dog, and
2) He knew what the best weight was for that better dog.

And that's pretty much all there is to it,

Jack

[BulldogConnection]

there are top knls and dogmen that stick to corn flakes for whatever reason


cornflakes was fed as a cheap plentiful supply of glycogen/carbs that was already cooked and easier to be broken down.

[kingkong1]

VERY NICELY PUT JACK AND I PRAY ALOT OF US INCLUDING ME CAN LEARN FROM THIS METHODOLOGY!!!!I DEFINITELY SEE YOUR INSIGHT!!!

[OGDOGG]

Anyone have info on conditioning a performance dog up to its ideal match weight instead of the typical ,conditioning downward to match weight.Ive heard Mr.don maloney used to do this but through my research & study I cant find solid proof if anyone has experience please respond.a.Also heard fatbill did this before...would the keep change?etc?
I've done this a few times and yes it works. It beats bringing the dog down a lb a week and sometimes the dog doesn't make weight or lose strength. Have your dog be 2 lb over his best weight, work him down to pit weight within 2 weeks and keep him there. The longer i have him at his best weight the stronger he can develope throughout his keep. I know some people will start out with beef then switch to chicken a couple weeks out but i'll start out with chicken and end with chicken. I won't change his diet and risk running hot. If he does good thoughout his keep, keep it that way to the end is my motto.

[FrostyPaws]

I personally don't understand this premise of bringing a dog down a lb a week. If you're actively trying to get a dog shown, the dog should be, AT MOST, 2 lbs over his agreed upon weight before the show is even set in stone. If a dog doesn't make weight, it's because the owner called the wrong weight. It has nothing to do with the dog as that is strictly human error. If the dog is weak, again, that is strictly human error due to any number of things.

I will say that I agree in that there is zero reason to be changing the diet a couple of weeks out. I personally don't think it's going to make a dog run hot, but I also see zero reasoning in doing so.

[OGDOGG]

Great minds think alike. ;)

[AmberLamps]

Anyone have info on conditioning a performance dog up to its ideal match weight instead of the typical ,conditioning downward to match weight.Ive heard Mr.don maloney used to do this but through my research & study I cant find solid proof if anyone has experience please respond.a.Also heard fatbill did this before...would the keep change?etc?

George Armitage used to condition his dogs this way, I believe his keep is in the book "30 years with fighting dogs".

I'v always wanted to try his method of bringing a dog up in weight, but just never got round to it.

[Officially Retired]

I can't imagine losing the required fat and muscle, to be under weight, being very good for a dog throughout the rigors of its conditioning process.

To me, it makes much more conceptual sense to have the dog right about where he needs to be, just a couple pounds over, and that gradually through conditioning, he is primed to be at his absolute best weight for the day of the show.

Even being @ pit weight isn't good for a dog for a long stretch, it is a brief window that needs to be taken advantage of, and then the dog needs to put on weight again. So I can't imagine it being good for a dog to go through an entire keep UNDER pit weight ... and then to have the fight of his life at pit weight (which weight itself should only be touched on briefly).

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

A dog should be brought down to weight, not under and back up. I agree with Jack.

Here's an important element to consider in terms of conditioning. Danny Burton, one of the greatest conditioners of all time and a understudy to Earl Tudor himself, said it best. You have to believe there are only two things that will stop your dog. Heat and the inability to breath. To get a dog to the cardiovascular level required, you cannot do so properly, or in a healthy manner, with the dog below his best strength levels. You can bring one down and increase cardio capacity, but not the other way around.

It doesn't matter the athlete. The training is done for ONE SINGLE EVENT. It's not done for anything other than that. I point this out to validate Jack's point that optimally, a conditioner is trying to have their athlete at PEAK CONDITION for that day, that time and for the required time needed to win. After that, it's back to a less stressful lifestyle. Training for anything is very stressfull and can only be done for a short period of time because no matter the objective, it is extreme and no one or nothing can live "extreme" every day of it's life.

The old man Jack makes reference to is a great example. The secret to his success is picking a good athlete and OUT WORKING his opponent. Nothing fancy at all. One of the better dogmen in Texas bases his entire keep around hand walking. Burton based his on what he called a "coyote trot". He believed when a dog could get into that "coyote trot" for hours, he was good to go. He used a cat mill more than anything.

Burton told me one time, and I love this b/c so many people have a different perspective on things, but he said, "Hell son. I ain't here to find out how game my dog is. I'm here to see how game your dog is"

[No Quarter Kennel]

To clarify b/f someone jumps on it, I do know there are more than two things that can stop a dog, but as a dogman, believing in his stock, you have to believe, as any coach of any athlete, that the only things that can stop you from winning are the things YOU control. These are the only things we can address anyways. Therefore, it should be a belief system so you yourself are conditioned to train around anything and everything that can beat you, within your control.

This is all one can do anyways. More simply put, don't beat yourself!

[AmberLamps]

Well fellas, these last few posts have just highlighted the reasons why i'v never got round to trying that method, and after reading those posts I most likely never will.

[R2L]

For sure, loosing weight to fast and being at match weight for a long period can never be good. 1 / 1,5 kilo sounds alright to start your keep with. doesnt make sense to loose this weight within 2 weeks.

[FrostyPaws]

I always find it interesting when you see the posts such as "Top 3 Things Needed To Win" that you never see the ability to breathe. That has to be neck and neck with whatever you have at the number 1 position. Without the ability to breathe correctly and efficiently, everything else becomes a moot point.

[Officially Retired]

I always find it interesting when you see the posts such as "Top 3 Things Needed To Win" that you never see the ability to breathe. That has to be neck and neck with whatever you have at the number 1 position. Without the ability to breathe correctly and efficiently, everything else becomes a moot point.

This is why I have always been such a stickler for air :idea:

This is why The Old Man told me, "Jack, if a dog can't give me a good hard hour, right off the chain, then I don't need that fukken dog."

You can last for 2 weeks without food.
You can last for maybe a week without water.
But you can't last more than a couple minutes without air.

The quickest way to test a dog's gameness, is to deprive him of the ability to breathe, and IMO more dogs quit to running hot than they do to pain or any other reason. If you have a dog who's running desperately hot, and who's on the bottom, you have a dog that will 99x out of 100 quit.

This is why super-athletic dogs, who can breathe, will 99x out of 100 beat the rest: they will be on top and they will NOT be running hot.

Jack

[R2L]

Jack and all, what do you think are good legal methods to test whether a dog's natural air is good enough?

[No Quarter Kennel]

Personally, I don't know if it's something that should be tested. What I mean, is I think it is something to develop. I know different dogs have better naturaly wind than others and certain lines are known for a more natural ability here than others. However, I believe the ability to breath through a contest can be developed in any dog.

So to answer your question, I say to "test" a dogs aerobic ability, simply put them to work. It's plenty legal to run a catmill, hand walk, bicycle, etc. and you'll get a good understanding of how your dog can breath. Keep at it and your dog will improve that ability.

[R2L]

Thanks for your response no quarter but what else could the "old man" be meaning then "natural air" when u expect something from a dog right of the chain. i agree its logic that anyone can improve his condition with training, but can you train any bulldog to reach the desired level for top competition if you put enough time in it? For example what i understand from Jack's last post, "super athletic dogs" tend to breath better. What else can influence. Like to read more about it

[Officially Retired]

Jack and all, what do you think are good legal methods to test whether a dog's natural air is good enough?


Unfortunately, there isn't any.

Why? Because while you can see any dog's natural air in exerting itself, by watching it perform various exercises, the fly in the ointment has to do with NERVES and COOL.

For example, my Stormbringer dog was very short-winded when I would run him on a mill, or have him go all-out pulling weights, so you'd figure he'd be short-winded in the pit too, right? WRONG! Why? Because he was unGodly-strong in the pit, and he was cool and confident, and he never wasted any energy. So while he would run hot when going all-out to common exercises, he would never run hot in the pit. It was all any dog could do (at full throttle) to try to match Stormbringer's strength (at half-throttle). Further, Stormy was so confident in there, and so pit savvy, that he was always ahead and never got flustered.

By contrast, a physically-weak dog (that was unschooled and had some shit in him) might do very well air-wise to common exercises ... and yet when put in the box with a powerhouse supreme, pit master, like Stormy that weak-ass dog might have to use every drop of energy he had just to stay even with Stormy at an average pace. Further, if the dog didn't know what he was doing, and took bottom, that shit might start to come out of him (and he might start feeling anxiety), and so his heart rate would increase due to his nervousness at his predicament ... and he will start running hot.

So the whole concept of running hot in the pit is more complicated than merely running hot to exercise. One dog may have economy of movement in the pit also, and conserve his energy, while the other goes apeshit in there and wastes his energy, etc., etc.

Therefore, while you may be able to get an idea as to a dog's tolerance for exercise in general, by having him do exercises in general, there are enough other positive/negative factors that come into play in the pit, that you need to see the dog actually in there to judge his air properly at that capacity. In this regard, schooling an intelligent dog will go a long way toward increasing his air, as the more experience he gets, the more he will learn to pace himself (whereas a stupid/highly-intense dog will never learn to pace himself).

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for your response no quarter but what else could the "old man" be meaning then "natural air" when u expect something from a dog right of the chain. i agree its logic that anyone can improve his condition with training, but can you train any bulldog to reach the desired level for top competition if you put enough time in it? For example what i understand from Jack's last post, "super athletic dogs" tend to breath better. What else can influence. Like to read more about it

Not quite so.

Silverback, for example, is an incredibly-athletic animal ... he's never been off his feet one time in 9 tries, including spotting 4-lb of weight twice. He is quickly and effectively on a down dog, almost immediately, because of his speed, timing, reflexes, and athletic coordination.

He is short-winded, however, and it's not because he's nervous ... or stupid ... but he is just so intensely geeked-up that he comes out like a bat-out-of-hell, looking to close the deal ASAP. To understand what I mean, you could probably run a mile-long race, if you kept a certain easy-going pace, but you would never see the end of that mile if you ran absolutely as hard as you could.

Therefore, again, the pace that any given dog decides to set will also have an effect on how long he can last.

Jack

[R2L]

Well that answer was way better then the answer i expected. Very logic and understandable. Thumbs up!!

[Officially Retired]

:D

[FrostyPaws]

Factoring in the ability to breathe is a dog by dog basis. There are dogs that are nutters before anything happens. Geeked up is a good word for it as that's exactly what they are. They want to put you away quick as was mentioned. The downside to those dogs is that a lot of them put themselves in a position to quit due to expending so much energy early on. You have some dogs with certain styles that lends to the belief they have a great ability to breathe. That may be true, but you will find out if the animal ever has to adapt to a different style due to their opponent. And considering that could never happen, you would never actually know for certain if that was the case or not.

If a person is serious about competition, the ability for the dog to breathe is greater than any amount of mouth or ability. Without O2 your dog is through.

[Officially Retired]

Factoring in the ability to breathe is a dog by dog basis.

True.




There are dogs that are nutters before anything happens. Geeked up is a good word for it as that's exactly what they are. They want to put you away quick as was mentioned. The downside to those dogs is that a lot of them put themselves in a position to quit due to expending so much energy early on.

This is true, which is why I have generally never liked short-winded dogs, and have generally always bred away from that trait. It is an absolute fact that most dogs will quit when they run hot.

However, I have seen some short-winded dogs that remained game to the core, even when so tired they got heat prostration.




You have some dogs with certain styles that lends to the belief they have a great ability to breathe. That may be true, but you will find out if the animal ever has to adapt to a different style due to their opponent. And considering that could never happen, you would never actually know for certain if that was the case or not.

Well, as long as they get the job done, and don't run hot, no matter how long it goes, then they have the required air to do the job.





If a person is serious about competition, the ability for the dog to breathe is greater than any amount of mouth or ability. Without O2 your dog is through.

That is generally true, and my dogs have built a monumental record outlasting the competition by having World Class Staying Power.

However, in some cases, a particular dog's extreme speed, strength, and ability to kill and finish will be the deciding factor in a fight ... and he will overpower and kill a longer-winded dog before "air" has anything to do with the outcome.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

So back to the original question. Since we all agree that AIR is a top, if not THE TOP PRIORITY, then it makes most sense to condition a dog DOWN to his best weight.

[Officially Retired]

So back to the original question. Since we all agree that AIR is a top, if not THE TOP PRIORITY, then it makes most sense to condition a dog DOWN to his best weight.

I agree. A certain healthy degree of muscle mass, and even certain (minimal) amounts of fat, are necessary for optimal health, let alone optimal performance.

So to force a dog to go through the rigors of a hard keep as a "wet noodle," with an insufficient amount of muscle and trace fat ... all so that he can be brought "up" to a peak weight (which itself is too low for a dog to stay at normally) ... simply cannot be "best practice" for the dog.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I agree 100%. Scientifically speaking, it makes no sense. To actually increase the body mass, in any form, while trying to increase aerobic capabilities would call for extreme athlete - coach combination. I would venture to say few, if any, could pull this off effective enough to consistently "out-condition" the opposition.

[FrostyPaws]

Conditioning a dog DOWN to his CORRECT weight opens up an entirely different can of worms also. I've seen a lot of dogs through the years, and most of them aren't at their correct weight. I would say that was the hardest thing for me to learn how to do correctly, and it took a lot of years to get to the point where I understand it all as I should.

It makes it hard for me to understand how people simply don't have the dog's best interest in heart when it comes to that. Whatever weight the person is comfortable making is the one they usually choose, and most of the time, that's not in the best interest of the dog. I remember seeing one animal win at 47 and win convincingly, and yet, the owner still insists the dog is a 48lb dog. The reality of it is the dog isn't even a correct 47, but at 47 he's closer to his weight than he is at 48.

I guess I'm just not designed to understand the fallacy of calling an incorrect weight when proof otherwise has been proven to you, as the owner.

[OGDOGG]

Every one made good points as to how one should condition their dogs. The most logic way to bring in a dog is working them down to pit weight. But like I stated before I've done it a few times bringing them up to weight and it worked perfectly for me. Matter of fact when PonchoBack was going for his first and Ch Buddy for his second, both dogs were on a 8 week keep, and out of those 8 weeks 2 weeks they were 1-2 pounds under and 6 weeks they were on weight or half a pound over. At the show every one there told me how good they looked and when they performed, they basically went in there and did their thing. They were strong, didn't lose mouth, didn't run hot and most importantly barely got touched. Buddy going 40 minutes and destroyed his opponent(picked up) and PonchoBack going over the hour mark. He also destroyed his opponent(picked up). They were clearly the 2 best in show that day and also the best in conditioning. The only reason they weren't picked to be BIS was because we left ASAP.
I believe there is no wrong way to bring in a dog to perform at its peak. The problem is if you don't know what you're doing and dont have a good eye, it doesn't matter how you do it, you're gonna mess it up.

[TopShelfKennels]

Im actually in the process of conditioning up to weight right now, it's a pain in the ass honestly. I still think we are gonna pull out the W, but I do prefer working down to weight over up in weight.

[Officially Retired]

Every one made good points as to how one should condition their dogs. The most logic way to bring in a dog is working them down to pit weight. But like I stated before I've done it a few times bringing them up to weight and it worked perfectly for me. Matter of fact when PonchoBack was going for his first and Ch Buddy for his second, both dogs were on a 8 week keep, and out of those 8 weeks 2 weeks they were 1-2 pounds under and 6 weeks they were on weight or half a pound over. At the show every one there told me how good they looked and when they performed, they basically went in there and did their thing. They were strong, didn't lose mouth, didn't run hot and most importantly barely got touched. Buddy going 40 minutes and destroyed his opponent(picked up) and PonchoBack going over the hour mark. He also destroyed his opponent(picked up). They were clearly the 2 best in show that day and also the best in conditioning. The only reason they weren't picked to be BIS was because we left ASAP.

It sounds like they came in great, but this does not necessarily mean that they couldn't have been better (with the same work, same diet, and against the same dogs) being brought down to weight instead of up. In other words, good dogs worked hard, fed a good diet, and brought in on weight are going to be GOOD, regardless.

I just think it takes more out of a dog NOT to have sufficient muscle/fat while being worked hard. I think it harms them internally in ways that are not readily apparent.





I believe there is no wrong way to bring in a dog to perform at its peak. The problem is if you don't know what you're doing and dont have a good eye, it doesn't matter how you do it, you're gonna mess it up.

I think there are a thousand wrong ways to bring a dog in. I know, I did a lot of them when I was green :embarrassed:

I believe there are also a thousand ways to bring a dog in "pretty good" shape, good enough to win (especially if the dog is real good).

However, IMO there are much fewer ways to bring a dog in optimal shape ...

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Im actually in the process of conditioning up to weight right now, it's a pain in the ass honestly. I still think we are gonna pull out the W, but I do prefer working down to weight over up in weight.
I guess we are in the same boat 100%. I am also doing the same thing right now.

[OGDOGG]

http://i.imgur.com/6WIkD.jpg
5 days out. Started her at 35 half she's right on weight at 37
Screaming IcePick(Screaming Icon/Ch IcePick) bitch

[skipper]

Looks good. Good luck!

[Nash]

Good lookin bitch OGDOGG.

[Officially Retired]

http://i.imgur.com/6WIkD.jpg
5 days out. Started her at 35 half she's right on weight at 37
Screaming IcePick(Screaming Icon/Ch IcePick) bitch


She is a very pretty bitch, beautiful, but to be perfectly honest she looks a little dry/flat/listless to me.

It is hard to tell from a photo though, and the lighting is bad, so maybe she is just real mellow.
The reason I say this is because she's not even at the full end of her chain.
I can't think of too many dogs I have photographed that aren't fully at the end of their chain, leaning into it.
She is supposedly in top form, and yet isn't even enthusiastic enough to get to the full-end of her chain.

Also, shame on you for using a cheap bullsnap and not a swivel; that is how dogs die in kennel wrecks :angry:

Not trying to be over-critical, but you posted a photo as an example of bringing a dog under, and then back up, and to be perfectly honest your bitch is just "standing there" and it looks like she has no pizzazz to her whatsoever, which is what I would expect from that style of conditioning: a flat dog.

Just being perfectly honest with you sir.

Jack

[TopShelfKennels]

Looks good OGDOGG, good luck to ya.

[OGDOGG]

Thanks skipper,Nash, and Top shelf. "She is a very pretty bitch, beautiful, but to be perfectly honest she looks a little dry/flat/listless to me" Thanks; shes a good looking and well structured animal but she is not dry. I would never bring my dogs in dry. Her skin count is half a second. But yes she does look exhausted due to us just got done walking for 3 hours(12 mile walk)then had her on what i call a quicky(cable run) area for my dogs to empty. "It is hard to tell from a photo though, and the lighting is bad, so maybe she is just real mellow" yes she is a very mellow dog some what timid at times when I raise my voice but a beast in the box. Her sister
http://i.imgur.com/1Wii1.jpg is the opposite, outgoing and very vocal and intense."Also, shame on you for using a cheap bullsnap and not a swivel; that is how dogs die in kennel wrecks" That is a quicky as I call it. She is my house dog and stays inside of the house. My outside dogs have set ups like the ones from your book(where I got it from)"Not trying to be over-critical, but you posted a photo as an example of bringing a dog under, and then back up, and to be perfectly honest your bitch is just "standing there" and it looks like she has no pizzazz to her whatsoever, which is what I would expect from that style of conditioning: a flat dog." I don't mind being criticize cause it'll only make me better. Yes she does look a little drained out but 4 days of rest will make her feel a lot better.

[Officially Retired]

Yes, it was definitely just honest opinion, because she was just "standing there." The prime dogs I am used to seeing are usually "eyes-bulging" ready.

All that aside, I sure hope she does well for you :pirate:

Jack

[TopShelfKennels]

Here's the one I'm working now, half pound over go weight with 2wks left. Pic doesn't do him much justice but he's coming along.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/purepit19/eab8ec8d.jpg

[OGDOGG]

He's getting there TSK. Looking good so far and good luck with yours.

[bolero]

i personally beleive that there is nothing wrong with the cornflakes and also they were used as the cheapest most easily digestable form of carbs, which they are, but bill also used fats such as flaw oil and coconut oil and knew that fats not carbs are what animals use for energs but those carbs are used in the first fifteen minutes of the work out then the fats kick in and i still beleive carbs are needed just in low percentages not high like humans need. u also have to understand that bill was putting a keep out there that was cheap and successful and he knew that cornflakes were not the best thing out there for carbs but the cheapest. you also must understand like jack said about the old man bill lnew two things no keep is good without the right weight and the right dog

[bolero]

the only thing you can tell from a photo is is how thin or fat a dog is. that dog appears to look great but i dont feel you can judge his condition from a photo you would have to watch that dog work see his coat in person and pull the skin on the back to see how dry he is. from all oputward appearences he looks awesome. what some dont understand also is that not all dogs are heavily muscled and while there musclesd are not popping like some they are in fact strong as an ox and can have wind for days a ripped dog does not equal and in shape dog you can handwalk a dog and get them to look ripped if u put in the miles

[bolero]

She is a very pretty bitch, beautiful, but to be perfectly honest she looks a little dry/flat/listless to me.

It is hard to tell from a photo though, and the lighting is bad, so maybe she is just real mellow.
The reason I say this is because she's not even at the full end of her chain.
I can't think of too many dogs I have photographed that aren't fully at the end of their chain, leaning into it.
She is supposedly in top form, and yet isn't even enthusiastic enough to get to the full-end of her chain.

Also, shame on you for using a cheap bullsnap and not a swivel; that is how dogs die in kennel wrecks :angry:

Not trying to be over-critical, but you posted a photo as an example of bringing a dog under, and then back up, and to be perfectly honest your bitch is just "standing there" and it looks like she has no pizzazz to her whatsoever, which is what I would expect from that style of conditioning: a flat dog.

Just being perfectly honest with you sir.

Jack
i dont beleive the way a dog stands means all that much and sometimes a dog all tense at the end of a chain makes them look more muscular then they actually are some dogs are calm one i got right now never hits the end of his chain unless a dog is there or i am coming to work him or brim him insidfe he is calm ad doesnt care to much to move on his chain other than to lay down and roll around

[OGDOGG]

This bitch is very mellow and meet my expectations. She is very smart. On the day of the show she came out the car barking and knew exactly what was up. Shes a beast! Too bad I was payed the forfeit.

[OGDOGG]

the only thing you can tell from a photo is is how thin or fat a dog is. that dog appears to look great but i dont feel you can judge his condition from a photo you would have to watch that dog work see his coat in person and pull the skin on the back to see how dry he is. from all oputward appearences he looks awesome. what some dont understand also is that not all dogs are heavily muscled and while there musclesd are not popping like some they are in fact strong as an ox and can have wind for days a ripped dog does not equal and in shape dog you can handwalk a dog and get them to look ripped if u put in the miles
She was in perfect shape, 100% hydrated. Pull her skin up and and it'll come down just as quick. I will never dry out my dogs that's for sure. Thank you for the positive feed back.

[Dogman]

The reason I say this is because she's not even at the full end of her chain.
I can't think of too many dogs I have photographed that aren't fully at the end of their chain, leaning into it.
She is supposedly in top form, and yet isn't even enthusiastic enough to get to the full-end of her chain.

I agree with Bolero a picture is just one dimensional.

Most dogmen are NOT photographers and its hard to get that one perfect shot of the dog leaning into his chain to see his striations in his muscle tones.

[Officially Retired]

i personally beleive that there is nothing wrong with the cornflakes and also they were used as the cheapest most easily digestable form of carbs, which they are, but bill also used fats such as flaw oil and coconut oil and knew that fats not carbs are what animals use for energs but those carbs are used in the first fifteen minutes of the work out then the fats kick in and i still beleive carbs are needed just in low percentages not high like humans need. u also have to understand that bill was putting a keep out there that was cheap and successful and he knew that cornflakes were not the best thing out there for carbs but the cheapest.

I think Bill did the best he could with the knowledge that was available at the time, but today it is pretty much unanimous that cornflakes are NOT "best practice" for a canine endurance fuel.

I am sure he knew cornflakes were not "the best" at the time also, but he still was under the impression that carbs were the primary fuel source for dogs ... when now it is known they are hardly needed at all (animal fats/oils are preferred) ... but no person can be blamed for using the available data of their time.




you also must understand like jack said about the old man bill lnew two things no keep is good without the right weight and the right dog

True enough! I think getting the weight right is the hardest thing to learn how to do ... it certainly used to be a stumbling block for me.




i dont beleive the way a dog stands means all that much and sometimes a dog all tense at the end of a chain makes them look more muscular then they actually are some dogs are calm one i got right now never hits the end of his chain unless a dog is there or i am coming to work him or brim him insidfe he is calm ad doesnt care to much to move on his chain other than to lay down and roll around

True enough.

That said, a person (who only has a photo to look at) can only go by the impressions gained by that photo. I think we can all agree that a photo certainly doesn't offer as much information as actually being there to see the dog move around.

Hell, I have taken two photos of the same dog, during the same shoot, where one photo makes the dog look like a million dollars ... while the other photo makes him look like a POS. (I am sure we all have done this.)

So if OGDogg says his bitch was in top form, then I would go by that over any photo.

Jack

[EWO]

A lot of people will pick ideal pit weight and then add one pound. I have always liked to keep the dog near pit weight throughout the keep, never more than a pound over or a pound under. I like for the days work to start at or about pit weight so at the end of the work he is slightly under pit weight. I am trying to mimic show night conditions. If he is 45 at weigh in and the average show is over in or around the hour mark odds are he is at 44 around the hour mark, if not 43 1/2. If he is worked at 46-47 and then fed down/worked down to a pit weight of 45 then at the hour mark he is light at 44 and expected to deliver everything he did at 45-47 but weighing only 44. It is one thing to give weight at show time but entirely different to be light an hour or so in. I like for my dogs to start work at weight and experience hard work at weight and then learn to work a pound light which mimics the load on show night. Then fed up at the end of the day to be just about on weight for tomorrow. I keep them three to four pounds over during the rest of the year. maybe more if the winter is unusually hard. EWO





I can't imagine losing the required fat and muscle, to be under weight, being very good for a dog throughout the rigors of its conditioning process.

To me, it makes much more conceptual sense to have the dog right about where he needs to be, just a couple pounds over, and that gradually through conditioning, he is primed to be at his absolute best weight for the day of the show.

Even being @ pit weight isn't good for a dog for a long stretch, it is a brief window that needs to be taken advantage of, and then the dog needs to put on weight again. So I can't imagine it being good for a dog to go through an entire keep UNDER pit weight ... and then to have the fight of his life at pit weight (which weight itself should only be touched on briefly).

Jack

[OGDOGG]

A lot of people will pick ideal pit weight and then add one pound. I have always liked to keep the dog near pit weight throughout the keep, never more than a pound over or a pound under. I like for the days work to start at or about pit weight so at the end of the work he is slightly under pit weight. I am trying to mimic show night conditions. If he is 45 at weigh in and the average show is over in or around the hour mark odds are he is at 44 around the hour mark, if not 43 1/2. If he is worked at 46-47 and then fed down/worked down to a pit weight of 45 then at the hour mark he is light at 44 and expected to deliver everything he did at 45-47 but weighing only 44. It is one thing to give weight at show time but entirely different to be light an hour or so in. I like for my dogs to start work at weight and experience hard work at weight and then learn to work a pound light which mimics the load on show night. Then fed up at the end of the day to be just about on weight for tomorrow. I keep them three to four pounds over during the rest of the year. maybe more if the winter
is unusually hard. EWO
Great conditioners think alike:idea:

[OGDOGG]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8046
Same under weight keep..same result 8)