Were them pure Boyles dogs..

[mig]

Were are them pure Boyles dogs..

[AGK]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=287139&myPedigrees=1)

[AGK]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=487&myPedigrees=1)

[heritage]

I call her JJ Fad cause she is supersonic : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=399871 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=399871)

[Pistol]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age.

[Czar]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age. ;)

[AGK]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age.

As it is with any bloodline.

[Officially Retired]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age.

As it is with any bloodline.


True!

[SUNDEVIL]

Im not sure if you would call her a pure boyles dog but very close to it . 8-) http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... edigrees=1 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=327565&myPedigrees=1)

[BulldogConnection]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=85683 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=85683)

[chainyankersknl]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=351729 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=351729)

[TFX]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age.

The linebred Boyles dogs had pretty pathetic percentages of game dogs almost from the inception. They were always rough as hell and athletic, but when your broke through the helacious mouth and offense, they most often would quit. This is a matter of fact, and I have seen the dogs from just about every well known source of these dogs there was in the middle to late 90's, including showing dogs right from Ronald's yard myself. My very good friend wrapped up over $100K in trying to obtain the best of this bloodline and really had nothing to show for it other than a lot of heartache, and a few very special animals from select breedings that were worth feeding and breeding.

[SwampDweller]

The blood is only as good as the man breeding it. You will find a lot of Boyles dogs bred pure on paper, but not many mount to a hill of beans in this day in age.

The linebred Boyles dogs had pretty pathetic percentages of game dogs almost from the inception. They were always rough as hell and athletic, but when your broke through the helacious mouth and offense, they most often would quit. This is a matter of fact, and I have seen the dogs from just about every well known source of these dogs there was in the middle to late 90's, including showing dogs right from Ronald's yard myself. My very good friend wrapped up over $100K in trying to obtain the best of this bloodline and really had nothing to show for it other than a lot of heartache, and a few very special animals from select breedings that were worth feeding and breeding.

I don't know what you've seen big guy, but I beg to differ; as I've seen a very high percentage in this line. You speak of "getting pass the helacious mouth", but very few "that I've seen" were able to do that. And the ones that did, didn't always win either; it went about 50/50. And even a greater percentage of those were lost afterwards. You have good & bad in every line, but from a percentage stand point, I love where I stand with this family of dogs. I started running this line of dogs back in 1989, and did so because I got tired of losing to them. And once I started filling chain spots with them, I gradually started clearing out the other dogs I had on the yard, from various bloodlines, to make more room for them! I guess its all about what you're looking for in your dogs; and of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. But the drive, roughness, ability, crunch, and finish in these dogs far exceed whatever faults they may have. Although, just because I didn't mention gameness, don't take it as if these dogs don't have that. Some have more than others, of course, depending on the angle or arm of this family that the individual dog comes from. The ones down from ANDY CAPP, and the ones with a good percentage of BUCK blood in them, are usually as game as any; at least the ones I've had. And put through the right keep, can run just as fast, and just as long as most. So, when you blend them to the other arms of this same family thats more known to bite a "car motor in half", you get dogs that are as close to the "total package" as one can be!

[Officially Retired]

I don't know what you've seen big guy, but I beg to differ; as I've seen a very high percentage in this line. You speak of "getting pass the helacious mouth", but very few "that I've seen" were able to do that. And the ones that did, didn't always win either; it went about 50/50. And even a greater percentage of those were lost afterwards. You have good & bad in every line, but from a percentage stand point, I love where I stand with this family of dogs. I started running this line of dogs back in 1989, and did so because I got tired of losing to them. And once I started filling chain spots with them, I gradually started clearing out the other dogs I had on the yard, from various bloodlines, to make more room for them! I guess its all about what you're looking for in your dogs; and of course, you are intitled to your own opinion. But the drive, roughness, ability, crunch, and finish in these dogs far exceed whatever faults they may have. Although, just because I didn't mention gameness, don't take it as if these dogs don't have that. Some have more than others, of course, depending on the angle or arm of this family that the individual dog comes from. The ones down from ANDY CAPP, and the ones with a good percentage of BUCK blood in them, are usually as game as any; at least the ones I've had. And put through the right keep, can run just as fast, and just as long as most. So, when you blend them to the other arms of this same family thats more know to bite a "car motor in half", you get dogs that are as close to the "total package" as one can be!


I know TFX and he is probably more brutal and exacting in his expectations of "gameness" than most, and has a family of dogs that you pretty much have to kill to beat. I also know a few other people who have had multiple Boyles dogs, and I have personally evaluated my own dogs against many of the more famous Boyles-type dogs, and I would have to agree that they are a very rough, very competitive, but (ultimately) not a very high-percentage game bloodline. Of course, I can't speak for your experience SwampDweller, and I trust what you're saying, but I can only speak from my own observations and reports. Naturally, I would never say some Boyles' dogs aren't very game, nor am I trying to say that all of mine are game, etc., but the key principle that we're talking about is percentages, not isolated instances (either way).

Now then, what I am going to give here is my honest, opinion on the gameness issue ... as a man who has seen (and whose stock has gone into -- even been crossed with) multiple instances of these dogs. Some of my opinions here are going to be unfavorable, but that is not the same thing as "talking trash." I do not want this thread to degenerate, so let us clear the air of the very important distinction between "talking trash" and giving honest opinions that might not be favorable (in some cases) but which are favorable in other cases. Let us strive to keep this discussion on a mature level, even in areas where we might not always agree, because all of us should be willing to concede the fact that "we have NOT seen them all," so all of us can only talk about what we have personally seen with our own eyes, or of instances we know are proven historical facts.

[center:1gsd0sqr](Note: To open links below in a new tab or window, right-click and then select "New Tab/Window")[/center:1gsd0sqr]
That said, I have seen multiple Ch Emmitt (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=19175) dogs go, and while they are rough (if you're not faster than they are), if you are faster than they are, and can control them, I wouldn't feed a single one that I saw (which says alot, considering I had the standing offer to breed to him for nearly 2 years, but never bothered to, despite the fact he was :15 down the road from me). Why? Every single one that I personally rolled into, was picked up to my inbred Poncho dogs, including 2 in a row brought by Super Cracker himself. Now I did know dogmen that I respected who though the world of the GR CH Sparky (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=21044) dog, who by all accounts was a deeply-game dog, and so I did breed to Sparky one time (with Screamer (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1046)) and the bitch I got out of that (Pantera (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=64226)) was a truly badass bitch. In the meantime, I have also seen plenty of Andy Capp (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=144) dogs, Nevada (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=5448) dogs, Right Hand Man (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=5370) dogs, High Class Red Johnny (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=11938) Dogs, etc. ... and really never thought much of any of them. Some were rough, but most were not very athletic (by my standards) almost none of them were game (by my standards). Of the lot of them, I liked the High Class Red Johnny dogs myself.

Now, just to show that what I am claiming to have seen "in private" is true, let me also point out the fact that my dogs have gone into plenty of Boyles dogs as well, and not just palookas either, but into some of the very best of these animals. Let me use the record of my dogs versus the Andy Capp dogs for example, in high-level shin-digs. Missy's son (and Silverback's half-brother), for instance, Latino Family's Energizer (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1036) went into Wonderboy's Ch Pup Pup (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=56699) (a candidate for Dog of the Year), so the dog I bred didn't just go into just "any" Boyles' dog, he went into one of the premier Boyles' dogs of his day, sired by one of the very best of all time in Andy Capp. Ch Pup Pup had killed Strickly Business' Ch Smokin' Joe in :53 and he waxed a 2xW HOE brought in :32. Yet in going 2:45 with the great Pup Pup, Missy's 20-month-old son went more than twice as long as BOTH of those other dogs did, put together. The young Energizer didn't win that one, but what he DID do was lose 100% DG to one of the very best Boyles dogs of his era. To show the level of gameness "I" am talking about, most people thought Energizer was done by :50 ... and yet by 1:35 he pulled even with Pup Pup, and it went back-and-forth for another hour. Unfortunately, while Energizer was an average dog biting with an average mouth, Pup Pup was an exceptional dog biting with a freak mouth, and despite the incredible toughness Energizer had that was light years better than the other two dogs that lost to Pup Pup ... by ~2:30 Energizer had pretty much bled out. And so, at about 2:45, Energizer couldn't beat the clock ... but he flopped, he rolled, he did basically everything he could possibly do to get there ... but he just couldn't. Yet Energizer displayed such an uncommon level of gameness, I had at least 10 dogmen call me back in 1996 when it happened (Latino Ray, LaFonze, Brooklyn Knights, etc.) and tell me that Missy's son was "the gamest dog they ever saw in their life." (As a matter of fact, there was actually a poll that was done on the old Vietnam Messageboard in the late 1990s, entitled "Gamest Dog of the 90s" and Missy's son Energizer was listed as #1.)

Now then, that is how one of my dogs "lost" to one of the best Boyles dogs of our time ... how about when we WON? ... How did the Boyles dogs handle it when they faced some of my other dogs and couldn't get the best of them? Well, let's take a look. When Poncho's son KB &SSB's Mister (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=52603) faced Breakemdown's Jadakiss (I don't think Jadakiss is on Peds, but he was off a son of Andy Capp out of a daughter of Banjo), Jadakiss trashed Mister on the face: I mean crushed his muzzle, totally controlled the deal for more than an hour straight. SSB's Bobby told me (10 years ago), "Jack I been in dogs 15 years and I've seen a lot of shit, and I would have understood if Mister would have cried it was so bad ... but he didn't make a peep." And so, finally, Mister (who had a devastating mouth of his own) got ahold of Jadakiss by about the hour mark, and broke his shoulder so bad the bone was sticking out ... and by 1:20 Jadakiss didn't seem to like to take what he was dishing out .. and he hung it up and quit. In another instance, another half-brother to Silverback, Ch Vengence (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=285893), faced GDI's Ch Soldier (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=60490), a highly-regarded son of SDJ Cover Dog Ch Comanche, and thought to be a shoe-in to make Grand Champion himself. That is, until he met Ch Vengence. Well, in this case, the dog from me was an ace, and he absolutely decimated the heavy-Boyles-bred Ch Soldier, totally controlling the dog from start to finish, and Ch Soldier had never been done like that before, and when he was on the wrong end of a brutal beating himself, he flat-out quit in :42.

The Gameness Results
If looked at under the microscope, the first dog from me went out 100% DG and could stand being behind for almost 3 hours straight into a devastating dog, all the way until the last bit of blood ran out of him. The second dog from me, Mister, took being behind (to a brutal face chewing that ruined his career) for over an hour ... and he came back to win. Meanwhile the other two Boyles dogs, who lost to my dogs, BOTH QUIT, and if you really want to examine the "gameness" issue closely, the Jadakiss dog was not willing to take being bit by a devastating mouth for more than :20, and the Ch Soldier dog was not willing take a total ass-kicing for :40. And remember, here again, these were all top-level matches into top level Boyles dogs. Therefore, to those who really do have a SEVERE gameness expectation, as I know TFX does too, I am sorry, but that just doesn't cut it IMO. And, remember, this is at the highest level, against some of the very best dogs of one of the very best representatives of the Boyles family. I promise you, at the lower "roll" level, against lesser-bred dogs, the percentages have been even worse for these dogs. This is just my honest opinion, based upon what I have seen, yet I humbly admit I have not seen them all.

With respect, but telling it like it is from my experience,

Jack

[TFX]

Swamp Dweller, there is no need to get your feelings hurt over a differing opinion, especially when that opinion is based on first hand experience with a veritable multitude of animals, with absolutely no expense spared to acquire them.

I have seen dozens upon dozens of the Boyles dogs from just about every notable kennel who bred them in the 1990's, including many from the man himself. The bottom line is they are not in general a line of high percentage game dogs. I remember well a SDJ in the late 80's in the "Rappin With The White Castle Kid" section where he was talking about the various popular lines of the day. About the Boyles dogs he said " Rough cur dogs that are mean as snakes". It would take a few more years until I would see a bunch of them myself, but I never forgot that. It proved to be a deadly accurate assesment from my own experience.

Now, with that said, I realize there are some game pockets of the Boyles dogs, and some game individuals. For example, we showed a Handicapp son (T-Boy stuff) who lost brutally honest in 1:47. He was the pure truth. We had a little Tobacco Road daughter who was real good. Above all, the two sisters by Red Johnny x Rick's Missy were phenomenal animals one of which; Roto, became our premier brood matron. However, I believe Roto and Precious were rock solid in spite of their topside, not because of it. You see, they come from a string of winning and game females themselves in Hollingsworth's Ruby (2X), Garner's Cal Cat (1X), and Rick's Missy. Of those two Missy daughters, only Roto was proven in the brood pen, and she produced game dogs in very high percentages. Likewise, I have seen a number of the Garner dogs direct from Tom. I don't like them much better than the Boyles dogs, they are rough, low percentage dogs. The best of them in y opinion have the ultra-game Hollingsworth blood like Missy, CH Rebel Yell, GR CH Spikey etc. did. The fact that I had a breeding program based around a Garner female and a Boyles sire only serves to show that I am not biased against either line. I recognize the value and contribution that both breeders made to the breed. It was Tom himself who said "I am Wal-Mart". In general, I don't shop for my clothes at Wal-Mart, but they do carry a few quality brands like Dickies. So it is with the "Wal-Mart" dog breeders, it isn't all bad! On the other hand, it damn sure isn't all good either. If a fancier gets something of high quality from a high percentage game pocket out of that type of breeding program, they would do well to stop and begin to breed upon it. Buying dogs out of a low percentage program is a good way to go broke unless you have very deep pockets like my friend who fooled with the blood. Before he got out of dogs in 1998, he ended up getting some traditional old Patrick (Bolio-Clouse-Tombstone) dogs and even some from the Carolina Kitten which were much more satsifactory overall in the gameness department.

[TFX]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=351729

That is a well bred animal. I would beg to differ that this dog falls into the "Pure Boyles Dog" category that spurred this thread however. There is a sprinkling of Boyles blood in the far reaches of the pedigee. From my vantage point, that dog is a DAISY dog, who really should be considered on her own merits this far down the line.

[Officially Retired]

How about this for another side of the coin?

Let's use the original Hollingsworth dogs as an example. They were an exceptionally-high-percentage family of dogs ... but how many multiple-Champion pure Lady In Red dogs were there? The foundation dog, Lady In Red, threw tons of game dogs, but many of them couldn't survive passed the first match?

This sport isn't only about gameness, it is about winning, is it not?

Take a look at this dog right here as an example: Gr Ch Wacko (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=122342).

Okay, so the dog lost and quit his last time out ... but, DAMN!, he was a 6xW and beat 2 Champions 8-)

Surely this has some value, if not MORE value, than a game plug who can barely make it passed 1 show?

In other words, while it may be true that some of these dogs aren't exceptionally game, if pressed hard enough, it is also true that they repeatedly and consistently produce Champions, multiple winning Champions, and you simply have to take your hat off to them for that.

Jack

[bad dog]

some of them walker's tboy dogs are game as hell.

[SwampDweller]

Swamp Dweller, there is no need to get your feelings hurt over a differing opinion, especially when that opinion is based on first hand experience with a veritable multitude of animals, with absolutely no expense spared to acquire them.

I have seen dozens upon dozens of the Boyles dogs from just about every notable kennel who bred them in the 1990's, including many from the man himself. The bottom line is they are not in general a line of high percentage game dogs. I remember well a SDJ in the late 80's in the "Rappin With The White Castle Kid" section where he was talking about the various popular lines of the day. About the Boyles dogs he said " Rough cur dogs that are mean as snakes". It would take a few more years until I would see a bunch of them myself, but I never forgot that. It proved to be a deadly accurate assesment from my own experience.

Now, with that said, I realize there are some game pockets of the Boyles dogs, and some game individuals. For example, we showed a Handicapp son (T-Boy stuff) who lost brutally honest in 1:47. He was the pure truth. We had a little Tobacco Road daughter who was real good. Above all, the two sisters by Red Johnny x Rick's Missy were phenomenal animals one of which; Roto, became our premier brood matron. However, I believe Roto and Precious were rock solid in spite of their topside, not because of it. You see, they come from a string of winning and game females themselves in Hollingsworth's Ruby (2X), Garner's Cal Cat (1X), and Rick's Missy. Of those two Missy daughters, only Roto was proven in the brood pen, and she produced game dogs in very high percentages. Likewise, I have seen a number of the Garner dogs direct from Tom. I don't like them much better than the Boyles dogs, they are rough, low percentage dogs. The best of them in y opinion have the ultra-game Hollingsworth blood like Missy, CH Rebel Yell, GR CH Spikey etc. did. The fact that I had a breeding program based around a Garner female and a Boyles sire only serves to show that I am not biased against either line. I recognize the value and contribution that both breeders made to the breed. It was Tom himself who said "I am Wal-Mart". In general, I don't shop for my clothes at Wal-Mart, but they do carry a few quality brands like Dickies. So it is with the "Wal-Mart" dog breeders, it isn't all bad! On the other hand, it damn sure isn't all good either. If a fancier gets something of high quality from a high percentage game pocket out of that type of breeding program, they would do well to stop and begin to breed upon it. Buying dogs out of a low percentage program is a good way to go broke unless you have very deep pockets like my friend who fooled with the blood. Before he got out of dogs in 1998, he ended up getting some traditional old Patrick (Bolio-Clouse-Tombstone) dogs and even some from the Carolina Kitten which were much more satsifactory overall in the gameness department.

TFX, it takes a lot more than a difference of opinion to get me in my feelings big guy. We're just having a gentlmen's discussion; that's it. Your opinion differs from mine, but I can't argue with what you saw or experienced; no more than you can agrue about my opinion. These dogs are what they are! Most are rough, with above average mouth, although, they are also a good percentage of the ones I have, and others I've seen that are just as game as any; put in the right shape, of course. I'm not saying all of them are, but I doubt if anyone can claim that all of the dogs they bred & raised are "as dead-game as a live one can be". With the mouth that these dogs have, coupled with the drive to finish, most won't ever get their "oil" checked to see. And that suits me just fine, cause honestly, when I was active (years ago) I wasn't trying to be in there all night anyway. However, I did get pushed to the limit with a few; one being my BULL dog, who went to a 2:02 game lose against Nail'Em Down's MAGIC 2xw; but we were awarded GIS honors after completing a courtesy that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up! BULL was a son of the BAM BAM dog that Sand Pitt had years ago, bred to the old RAFFLE bitch that Maywalt had, who was bred down from a Lonzo Pratt/Howard Heinzl bloodline. Then there was our HAMMER dog, that won in 2:31 against The Deacon & Rodgers' charge; also winning GIS honors that night. HAMMER was a son of WILD BILL CODY, bred to a bitch Grave Yard Boyz got from STP. These are dogs I owned & campaigned myself (years ago). There are others that I can list that were "pushed to the limit", and still showed "true to the game". Dogs like, CH. SEEKA, CH. INDIO, CH. PUP PUP (as you mentioned Jack), GR.CH. SPARKY, CH. KING JOKER, etc., etc. And I can go on and on, but there is also a list just as long of those that quit. I have had success with them, and I wouldn't trade them for any other. These dogs will always be the foundation of my yard, however, I have, and will continue to cross into other lines that I think will add to their ability in some way. So TFX & Jack, I do respect both of you, as well as your opinions, but I still beg to differ. I like the ones that win; and if they can go in there and do it, where their gameness is never tested, than thats cool by me! Just as long as they win against first-class competition.....

Swamp

[TFX]

Jack flipped the coin and presented the same basic viewpoint that you are Swamp, and that is "if they win who cares if they are game?" For a sheer performance dog I would agree. However, when breeding, I believe mating dogs who may only be pit game is a tremendous liability. I would take those old game plug Hollingsworth dogs any day as my brood stock over a bunch of dogs who won in :16, :24: 07 etc. I can add the ability to a game dogs, but one will have the challenge of a lifetime adding gameness to a line when it is not ever present to begin with.

For the record, Indio was not really a 3X winner. This is evidenced by the fact that in his owner's own stud ad in the same issue of the SDJ that his CHship certificate was printed, they acknowledge his 2nd was a draw. Now he was a pretty good dog that went something like 2:39 and then the dogs stood to each other in a no contest draw. Shortly thereafter he won another in relatively short order. Apparently, since they were so close to having a Champion they sent in the thing as a win. I guess they forgot they sent in the stud ad with the same show listed as a draw! Oops! Anyhow, by the time Fricchione knew about it the magazine was shut down, and now 10 years later nobody is the wiser- except the people who had a firsthand account of the show and/or read the stud advertisement. With that said, they bred a daughter of his to my old Batters dog and the offspring are simply unreal in ability. Hopefully they are game too, but at least I know on the top side of their pedigree that have a lot of deep gameness in the genetics, and even old Indio went the distance too despite getting counted out. There is hardly anything as sad as being ahead the entire show only to have the dog not make that last scratch. That is where the Boyles dogs left us one too many times. Most of them never even made it past the schooling phase.

Now, in my original post I acknowledged that there were "game pockets", dogs that carry significant Boyles blood and do have consistent deep gameness. That is what you are describing about your own dogs, and that is great.

What it "boils" (pun intended) down to for me is "what does it take to be satisfied?" If a fellow purchased 10 dogs from a breeder, how many of them should be able to pass a reasonable game test for the line to qualify as "high percentage" or even "reasonably game" percentage wise? I think I am being very generous when I say at least 5 or 6 of them should be reasonably game to be deemed acceptable. By that same standard, if a kennel won 50-60% of his shows we certainly would not consider them having a "high win percentage". Generally, that kind of statement is reserved for 70% or greater. So it is with dogs from a breeders yard. Now, what happens when a guy quits 8 or 9 out of 10 dogs in a line all before the 20 minute mark? Certainly they can't be regarded as game despite the amount of wins in the immediate ancestry. It is a real shame to see a high dollar dog who has famous siblings pack it in to a very average dog, but these experiences are the typical results that the Boyles dogs demonstrated out here.

I personally have abandoned the segments of our line that produce below an acceptable level of turnout, and I have always strived to breed from the higher end of the line. Case in point. A well known fancier who has had his hand in many famous dogs approached us 8 or 9 years ago wanting to breed to our Homer III dog. In exchange, he offered his hot shot stud dog of the era in an stud exchange. We were not so keen on doing it, but as a gesture of goodwill we agreed to do so. He got the good end of the deal, with several winners coming from the breeding including one BIS in a 13 card show. We got 6 pups from his sire, 5 that we kept and one that we sold. As my luck historically has been, the one we let go to a fellow for a few hundred bucks made Champion in pretty fast company. All 5 that we kept were very rank curs. Now, while I am pleased that one made Champion, that doesn't tell the whole story does it? At least not from a breeder's perspective. The fellow later sold that CH bitch, and naturally we could have bought her. The fact is that you couldn't pay me to breed to her, as she came out of a very poor litter. Most fanciers don't know the nuances of a line, they only look at the one small nugget in the gold pan, a title like CH or GRCH. The reality of it is when a fellow is mining, the occasional small nuggets will never add up to the weight of lots and lots of flakes in every pan. Consistency is everything!

[Officially Retired]

TFX, it takes a lot more than a difference of opinion to get me in my feelings big guy. We're just having a gentlmen's discussion; that's it. Your opinion differs from mine, but I can't argue with what you saw or experienced; no more than you can agrue about my opinion. These dogs are what they are! Most are rough, with above average mouth, although, they are also a good percentage of the ones I have, and others I've seen that are just as game as any; put in the right shape, of course. I'm not saying all of them are, but I doubt if anyone can claim that all of the dogs they bred & raised are "as dead-game as a live one can be". With the mouth that these dogs have, coupled with the drive to finish, most won't ever get their "oil" checked to see. And that suits me just fine, cause honestly, when I was active (years ago) I wasn't trying to be in there all night anyway. However, I did get pushed to the limit with a few; one being my BULL dog, who went to a 2:02 game lose against Nail'Em Down's MAGIC 2xw; but we were awarded GIS honors after completing a courtesy that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up! BULL was a son of the BAM BAM dog that Sand Pitt had years ago, bred to the old RAFFLE bitch that Maywalt had, who was bred down from a Lonzo Pratt/Howard Heinzl bloodline. Then there was our HAMMER dog, that won in 2:31 against The Deacon & Rodgers' charge; also winning GIS honors that night. HAMMER was a son of WILD BILL CODY, bred to a bitch Grave Yard Boyz got from STP. These are dogs I owned & campaigned myself (years ago). There are others that I can list that were "pushed to the limit", and still showed "true to the game". Dogs like, CH. SEEKA, CH. INDIO, CH. PUP PUP (as you mentioned Jack), GR.CH. SPARKY, CH. KING JOKER, etc., etc. And I can go on and on, but there is also a list just as long of those that quit. I have had success with them, and I wouldn't trade them for any other. These dogs will always be the foundation of my yard, however, I have, and will continue to cross into other lines that I think will add to their ability in some way. So TFX & Jack, I do respect both of you, as well as your opinions, but I still beg to differ. I like the ones that win; and if they can go in there and do it, where their gameness is never tested, than thats cool by me! Just as long as they win against first-class competition.....
Swamp


Great post, Swamp, and I feel you. You can only go by what you personally have experienced.

In a similar example to yours, I myself had all of the "experts" of my day telling me not to breed to Ch Hammer, because (they said) the dog "couldn't produce." I ignored their bad advice, and bred to Hammer anyway, and "the rest (as they say) is history." In hindsight, I have produced more winners, and bona-fide DG dogs, through my Hammer/Trinx dogs than any of the nay-sayers of my day ever have or did by following their own ideas 8-)

As with anything, the successful breeding enterprise depends on selection, and the choice one man makes in his matings will not necessarily yield the same results as the choice another man makes with his matings. Those people who told me "not" to breed to Hammer were trying to give me good advice, and I am sure they were accurately-reflecting their own experiences ... but the simple fact is "their" experiences had nothing to do with my experiences, which turned out to be as good as I could have hoped for. A lot of people attribute my breeding success to Miss Trinx, and try to downplay Hammer's influence, but I think this is an error of judgment. Because I also bred Trinx's brother Truman twice, and to Hollingsworth's Bull once, and yet I had nowhere near the quality dogs (nor the uniformity of litter) that I got by breeding Trinx to Ch Hammer. That breeding just clicked, and it clicked deeply and for real, with a trans-generational and multi-replicating authority that still exists today.

So I don't blame you for ignoring what TFX and I have said, as even though his experiences, and my experiences, are given in earnest goodwill and are true, in the end our experiences still have nothing to do with your own experiences ... using different individual dogs and different segments of the bloodline ... and which you personally have worked with. So, as a man who fully understands how different twists to a line, and different individuals used from that line, can yield vastly different results, I completely respect what you say.

Cheers,

Jack

[TFX]

Let me add to this thread something that one fellow asked me about offline. "What about the Backstreet Truez' blood?" I have heard nothing but good things about that stuff though never got the chance to work with any of it. The record of the family certainly shows them to be much more long distance type of dogs. They certainly have a Boyles base behind them, but this just goes to show how SELECTIVITY can shape a segment of a family. I personally think it is a misnomer to call the Backstreet Truez' type of dogs "Boyles Dogs" at this point in time. They have evolved into their own specific family of dogs....... and here is the key........ because the breeder was smart enough to drop anchor and actually build a family on a few key dogs with his own standards. I have called this for years the FUNNEL EFFECT. By funnelling the dogs through key individuals and line breeding on them, new standards are set and new families are created. The Brake family of dogs are not just Patrick dogs, even though they have a heavy influence of that family behind them. Evolution's dogs are not just Southern Kennels or STP dogs, they have evolved into a family of their own. I have even had people call my dogs "Boyles dogs". I can assure you that even though my dogs have some of that blood behind them, they are nothing like the kind of Boyles dogs I described in the earlier posts of this thread. Over generalizing often leads to misunderstanding one another.

[StoneCity]

I believe that in this sport there are enough facts to prove any point you want to make about any bloodline. If you want to prove a bloodline is Game, there are facts to support it, if you want to prove that same bloodline is a cur, there are facts to support it. Actually, I am certain that all bloodlines have beat every other bloodline at one point in time. Now, If we talk about percentages and probabilities, I will guarantee you that you will be surprise how low percentages are in this sport. People tend to talk about percentages, but no one keeps data records to calculate the percentage, it is more a quick mental examination and come up with a conclusion without any actual figures.

For Example: Note: All Statistics taken from Peds Online which do not represent 100% of population. Let's agree that the numbers are much higher.

Mayday - 738 offsprings

Jeep - 405 offsprings

Frisco - 1,180 (That is insane!!!)

Buck - 128

Note: Calculations based on particular individuals and not the bloodline. At the bloodline level, % are much lower.

So If we were to calculate the production of match quality dogs using just a 10% production rate, Mayday will need to produce 73.8, Jeep 40.5, Frisco 118 and Buck 12.8. Now when you put the actual figures in front of you, you realize how low the percentages are. Obviously, percentages could be lower or higher depending on what is your concept of a match quality dog and also depends on each individual experience with that particular bloodline. Maybe you get all the good ones and everybody else get the bad ones. This means you could have a 35% production rate for the dogs you own, but the overall rate is a lot lower I can guarantee you that.

Having said that, My approach to bloodlines and breeding is to make the best possible effort to get the most complete dog I can. What are the qualities I look in a complete dog:

1- Gameness - This is the core characteristic. If you don't have this, in due time the bloodline will fade out.
2- Intelligence - Needed to beat rough curs.
3- Ability and Athletic
4- Speed
5- Mouth

If I could just put 100% of all these characteristics in one bloodline and consistently reproduce it, I will be the King of the Hill. But since I know the stats are against me, I have to be very careful in my selection process. Key elements to be successful on breeding any bloodline are:

1- Clear Concept of what you are breeding for, Gameness? Hard Mouth? All of the above?
2- SELECT and BREED Only those individuals that show the characteristics you are looking for or that you need to incorporate in your line.

After all this typing, My points are:

Percentages of success on ALL bloodlines are very low.

Not all individuals withing a bloodline are created equal.

Be Selective when breeding.

It takes YEARS to develop a bloodline.

At the end of the day, we can not blame the bloodline itself but the individuals behind them making decisions.


Boyle's Dogs have had their rate of success for years, is it higher or lower than other bloodlines, we will never know until we put the figures together and compare.
Just make sure you are breeding to top individuals and your chances will improve no matter the bloodline.

[TFX]

Excellent input!

[Officially Retired]

Agreed. A truly knowledgeable and great post, from a man with a time-proven, great bloodline to back up his beliefs.

Thank you for the contribution Stone City.

[SHOWBOX]

Truly an impeccable correspondence, among true educated "GENTLEMEN". I hope to find this standard of class among more individuals located here on this forum. If so, I may have found a home. I thank you Jack.

Here is my contribution, though not a pure Boyles dog, they are what I hope to be called the truth and the future. I thank you gentlemen for such an excellent and intriguing read and may the lord continue to bless you all with your continued success and contributions.

Meshack (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2570)x Ms. Luther (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3168)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=371014 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=371014)

Very respectfully,

SHOWBOX

[Czar]

Sometimes I think ppl put to much thought into breeding!..The word "game" means alot of different things to alot of different ppl...it's a very controversial word I must say...let me give a example...queen of hearts was a exceptional dog but mr boyles thought she was just a hard mouth cur because she bit so hard and he sold her because of that...this was truly a bad decision by RB because she became one of if not the baddest bitch in this sport!...qoh can't help she was blessed with a wicked mouth, she couldn't help that no dog could stay with her over the 38 minute mark because she was so gifted!...now heres the kicker for u!..was qoh "game"??...why hell yes!..because she out gamed all of her opp!..and she produced fairly well!..."game" will not win alone in today fastlane so u will need mouth to!...Hollingsworth wasn't a smart man from my understanding I've also heard he didn't test his dogs but they still produced good dogs!...their have been plenty of good boyles dogs that had it all!...it just like any other line of dogs, some will be good and some will not be good...the biggest factor is the man behind the dog/dogs...this is the boyles blood we like to work with where I'm from... http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=24438 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=24438)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=384824 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=384824)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=386840 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=386840)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=88437 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=88437)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=171386 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=171386)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=174530 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=174530)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... g_id=34034 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=34034)

All those dogs have represented the boyles blood to the fullest!

[SwampDweller]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=297015 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015)

She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=405311)

CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!

Swamp

[Czar]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015

She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=405311)

CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!

SwampCh pandi was truly a beast!!..one of the hardest biting bitches ever!!

[Officially Retired]

Truly an impeccable correspondence, among true educated "GENTLEMEN". I hope to find this standard of class among more individuals located here on this forum. If so, I may have found a home. I thank you Jack.
Here is my contribution, though not a pure Boyles dog, they are what I hope to be called the truth and the future. I thank you gentlemen for such an excellent and intriguing read and may the lord continue to bless you all with your continued success and contributions.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=371014 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=371014)
Very respectfully,
SHOWBOX


You're welcome, and I agree the participation and input from all was conducted as the way it should be, with respect, even though people had different opinions. In the end, Stone City clarified the biggest truth, which is all major lines have won/lost to other major lines, and so the key always boils down to careful selection as you proceed forward with your chosen line. In fine, proper breeding selection can create Champions with any good line, and improper breeding selection can create garbage with any otherwise good line.

I will say this, though: that statement was made that we don't have "all the true stats" on all of these different bloodlines to rate them against one another, but I would like to add that you absolutely SHOULD keep stats on your own bloodline. I can promise you, for example, that I absolutely know which are the best ways to go within my own line, by keeping careful track of the only percentages I can really know for sure, which are my own.

The man who pays attention to this can make a success of any reasonably-strong bloodline, while the man who does not can make a mess out of any reasonably-strong bloodline, and I have seen both happen plenty of times :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015
She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=405311)
CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!
Swamp

Superb dogs and record with them, Swamp, I can see why you're proud 8-)

Bravo!

Jack

[SwampDweller]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015
She didn't bite as hard as her dam, but she could still lay ivory with the best of them. Nonetheless, she was the best I've owned, and every dog thereafter has been held to a higher standard because of how she did her thing. Extremely smart, a screamer in the corner, and just an absolute wonder to watch in action! There were some who doubted her ability, but very few who stepped up to the plate with their charge. She won her last against the CH. FOAMIE bitch in full-blow heat! I suspect thats why it took her so long to do away with the game little FOAMIE bitch. I still miss her dearly, and just thought I'd show her off again, for those who haven't heard of "The Queen Bitch Of The South"; arguably one of the best 32lbers ever! She sure did it in true bulldog fashion. Her records speaks for itself, although, there were 2 champions that turned us down (who I won't reveal), and 2 forfeits paid (from a 2xw & 1xw). Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=405311 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=405311)
CUTIE PIE is the "gate-keeper" to the future of our program; one of the meanest little bitches you ever want to see, who lacks nothing! Mouth, Intensity, Drive, Finish, & Style. One of only 3 surviving pups out of her litter, and both her sire & dam are now dead. She gives a new meaning to "Big" things come in "Small" packages... Boyles blood, with a good portion of ELI, and a touch of RED BOY; can't get no closer to perfection IMO!
Swamp

Superb dogs and record with them, Swamp, I can see why you're proud 8-)

Bravo!

Jack

Thanks Jack! And your right, I am definietly proud of the family of dogs we have. And I'm sure, as each generation passes, my admiration for them will increase, greatly!

[TFX]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015
Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!
Swamp

I started out with the Redneck TJ blood that is behind Baby Jones. Those were extremely game dogs on average.

[floridaboy]

i have this male http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=373869 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=373869)

[SwampDweller]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=297015
Boyles' DIRTY MARY & Bell's BABY JONES at it's best!
Swamp

I started out with the Redneck TJ blood that is behind Baby Jones. Those were extremely game dogs on average.


Winn's RED NECK (a.k.a. TJ) definitely put out some game dogs, and those dogs were able to pass that trait on to their propective offspring; and so on and so forth. Bell's BABY JONES did the same, and its his influence in my dogs that I value the most.

[BulldogConnection]

We like the Baby Jones blood coming through Flash alot.

[TFX]

Winn's RED NECK (a.k.a. TJ) definitely put out some game dogs, and those dogs were able to pass that trait on to their propective offspring; and so on and so forth. Bell's BABY JONES did the same, and its his influence in my dogs that I value the most.

My first mentor in the dogs was Carl Winn's long time partner (that owned CH Little Boots ROM), so I know a little something about the old TJ blood. When LB got the TJ dog he did some very nice matings with him. I would venture to say that with kind of stuff behind your dogs they are bound to be much gamer than the standard old CH Reno- CH Mr. Rogers-Ch Comanche type of Boyles blood that was so very disappointing out here.

[drz]

Some great Boyles type dogs being presented this thread.

[SwampDweller]

Winn's RED NECK (a.k.a. TJ) definitely put out some game dogs, and those dogs were able to pass that trait on to their propective offspring; and so on and so forth. Bell's BABY JONES did the same, and its his influence in my dogs that I value the most.

My first mentor in the dogs was Carl Winn's long time partner (that owned CH Little Boots ROM), so I know a little something about the old TJ blood. When LB got the TJ dog he did some very nice matings with him. I would venture to say that with kind of stuff behind your dogs they are bound to be much gamer than the standard old CH Reno- CH Mr. Rogers-Ch Comanche type of Boyles blood that was so very disappointing out here.

Yes, thats the mix; Boyles' DIRTY MARY / Bell's BABY JONES. I love them; and they do have a lot more "bottom" than the average Boyles bred dogs, without losing the destructive crunch! I love the dogs down from CH. PANDI, who was a daughter of 2xw SHEBA (daughter of BABY JONES). And especially love the dogs from 2xw GOTTI, who was off REAPER (SHEBA's litter-mate sister; 4xw CH. BLACK GIRL & 3xw CH. BROWNIE was also in that same litter). I love the dogs down from GR.CH. FLASH equally, but I don't have any of it; still searching out the best way to include it within my program, as well as the best dog down from him available to me. Selective Breeding, True Vision, and a Keen Eye for a Bulldog; using that mindset, one can improve on any bloodline, no matter how good or great they may already be!

Hey TFX, you remember the old TUG BOAT dog? I'm more than sure you do.... One of the gamest to look through a collar!

Take Care & Be Safe,

Swamp

[TFX]

Oh sure, the old Tugboat Willie dog went something like 5:34. As I understand it, they basically laid there in holds for much of that time, but it sure set a record.

There's a fellow up the road who has the Gotti son Chester. He likes him and his offspring. I could perhaps be persuaded by the Gotti blood, but it is the CH Chino/Tippi blood on the bottom of Chester that I avoid at all costs. I stopped CH Chino's brother on top wth a real nothing bulldog, and don't even get me started on all of the CH Comanche dogs that carry the Tippi blood. I am not a fan of that stuff, as it was extremely low percentage blood out here.

[reservoirdogs]

Great posts fellas. Did Chino stop when he lost against Hardcore and GBK ? Why did Pandi and Nine Milli never meet ?
Overhere as well I've been very disappointed by the Reno stuff. Very low percentage stuff. The Bull stuff (Buck x QOH ) is throwing much better percentages. The Ernie blood ( Right Hand Man x Twiggy ) was much gamer as well : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=287606 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=287606). It even helped the Ch Reno blood to be decent and competitive. Thanks for sharing your experience.
TFX what has been your experience with both the Chino blood and the Comanche stuff ?
The Flash blood overhere coming from G. Bell did pretty well and showed some serious bottom end : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=146229 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=146229)

[TFX]

We never had anything from Chino out here, but my good friend bought his belly brother for some pretty good coin. He went for a while having his way the whole time and quit on top. The CH Comanche dogs did not work out so well, and my friend bought at least $20,000 worth of them bred every which way you can think of. PCK had some good stuff come through his Apache bitch who was a Comanche daughter, but her mother Gogo (2X) was an absolutely fantastic animal, so it is really no surprise. My same friend ended up buying Gogo later for $3,500 and we mated her with Homer II. Those were also some excellent dogs. PCK took that Apache blood to Eli and Redboy sires and got some good ones everytime. I think he also bred it back to the Comanche stuff, but I didn't see any of those, so I have no comment. We even tried breeding Homer II and Homer III to the Comanche daughters, and the results were less than satisfying overall, with very low percentages. The Sporty dog (1Xw 1XL-G) was the one exception I can think of. Homer II produced very well to almost everything else he was bred to. I hate to sound like a hater, but my firsthand experience with that stuff 15 years ago was beyond disappointing. Someone may have mined some gold out of it and worked it into a new package today, you just never know. As Stone City basically said, a case can be made for the good and bad attributes of almost any line. Those dozens and dozens of heavy Boyles dogs my friend bought just gave me the real world lesson that A) Spending big money on dogs still doesn't mean you will get good ones, and B) My old home bred dogs were light years better than all of that "popular" Boyles stuff. We were able to infuse the best segment of what he obtained from that bloodline, and thus the Red Johnny influence that is in my dogs still to this day.

[SwampDweller]

We never had anything from Chino out here, but my good friend bought his belly brother for some pretty good coin. He went for a while having his way the whole time and quit on top. The CH Comanche dogs did not work out so well, and my friend bought at least $20,000 worth of them bred every which way you can think of. PCK had some good stuff come through his Apache bitch who was a Comanche daughter, but her mother Gogo (2X) was an absolutely fantastic animal, so it is really no surprise. My same friend ended up buying Gogo later for $3,500 and we mated her with Homer II. Those were also some excellent dogs. PCK took that Apache blood to Eli and Redboy sires and got some good ones everytime. I think he also bred it back to the Comanche stuff, but I didn't see any of those, so I have no comment. We even tried breeding Homer II and Homer III to the Comanche daughters, and the results were less than satisfying overall, with very low percentages. The Sporty dog (1Xw 1XL-G) was the one exception I can think of. Homer II produced very well to almost everything else he was bred to. I hate to sound like a hater, but my firsthand experience with that stuff 15 years ago was beyond disappointing. Someone may have mined some gold out of it and worked it into a new package today, you just never know. As Stone City basically said, a case can be made for the good and bad attributes of almost any line. Those dozens and dozens of heavy Boyles dogs my friend bought just gave me the real world lesson that A) Spending big money on dogs still doesn't mean you will get good ones, and B) My old home bred dogs were light years better than all of that "popular" Boyles stuff. We were able to infuse the best segment of what he obtained from that bloodline, and thus the Red Johnny influence that is in my dogs still to this day.

I do agree with you on the CH. COMANCHE stuff; the percentages I got from it weren't the best, but I did have 2 that were pretty dam good; one was my NASH dog, a 2xw-1xl (lost a brtual, fast pace match-up to CH. ZEUS in :47minutes) and HIT MAN 1xw. NASH was off CH. COMANCHE bred to an ALLIGATOR/MAVERICK bitch, and HIT MAN was off a son of CH. COMANCHE bred to that same ALLIGATOR/MAVERICK bitch. I saw the ROCIO bitch that Backstreet Truez had, and she was decent, but not a match dog; although, she did produce 2-champions, 1-2xw, and 2-1xw's. Her best offspring in my opinion were CH. SPIDER-MAN & CHARLIE MANSON (1xw-1xl-lost to CH. TRACKER).

[SwampDweller]

We never had anything from Chino out here, but my good friend bought his belly brother for some pretty good coin. He went for a while having his way the whole time and quit on top. The CH Comanche dogs did not work out so well, and my friend bought at least $20,000 worth of them bred every which way you can think of. PCK had some good stuff come through his Apache bitch who was a Comanche daughter, but her mother Gogo (2X) was an absolutely fantastic animal, so it is really no surprise. My same friend ended up buying Gogo later for $3,500 and we mated her with Homer II. Those were also some excellent dogs. PCK took that Apache blood to Eli and Redboy sires and got some good ones everytime. I think he also bred it back to the Comanche stuff, but I didn't see any of those, so I have no comment. We even tried breeding Homer II and Homer III to the Comanche daughters, and the results were less than satisfying overall, with very low percentages. The Sporty dog (1Xw 1XL-G) was the one exception I can think of. Homer II produced very well to almost everything else he was bred to. I hate to sound like a hater, but my firsthand experience with that stuff 15 years ago was beyond disappointing. Someone may have mined some gold out of it and worked it into a new package today, you just never know. As Stone City basically said, a case can be made for the good and bad attributes of almost any line. Those dozens and dozens of heavy Boyles dogs my friend bought just gave me the real world lesson that A) Spending big money on dogs still doesn't mean you will get good ones, and B) My old home bred dogs were light years better than all of that "popular" Boyles stuff. We were able to infuse the best segment of what he obtained from that bloodline, and thus the Red Johnny influence that is in my dogs still to this day.

CH. CHINO dogs can get the job done quickly, and in impressive fashion! Thats why I love them, and have quite a few of them. Can't speak on his littermate brother, but the dogs we've had off & down from CH. CHINO worked well. Of course, not all of them will make it to the box, but more will than not. But thats just my take on the line; what I think is an ACE, some may think is a hard mouth cur. Most of the fanciers that run this line of dogs, do so because of their biting ability and intensity; trying to win big.... and fast. CH. CHINO himself, produced a lot more winning dogs than the average; CH. PANDI 4xw, CH. HEFFA 3xw, CH. PIE FACE 4xw, CH. CONRAD 3xw, GOOBER 2xw, MAX 1xw, BULL 1xw, etc., etc. And again, the list is a bit longer than I have time to post; but he did put'em on the ground. And thats not even taking into account of all the winners down from him.

[CitySwamp]

Swampdweller, Rocio is that the bitch that lost twice? I think quit second time? A talented hound but don't think she was right after the one worked on her face. I know I'm told Spiderman had all the heart shame he passed so soon, I think he could of been good producer for that line

[SwampDweller]

Swampdweller, Rocio is that the bitch that lost twice? I think quit second time? A talented hound but don't think she was right after the one worked on her face. I know I'm told Spiderman had all the heart shame he passed so soon, I think he could of been good producer for that line

Yes, ROCIO stopped in 1:41; not twice though..... Also, CH. SPIDER-MAN was a real good dog, to say the least! Tha 504 Boyz had his littermate brother, and he was a good one as well, and produced more of the same, although, most of those dogs were lost during Hurricane Katrina.

[drz]

I have to agree with the thoughts on the stuff down from Comanche. Talented dogs and tough to put behind but they seem to lack heart when they can't have their way. I credited that more with the Mr. Rogers influence than the Tippi but 6 of one half dozen of the other I suppose. That being said I wonder when you all discuss percentages which percentages are you actually discussing? Game dogs in a litter? Show quality dogs in a litter? Winners in a litter? Championship level dogs in a litter? Because not all lines inspire the same type of philosophies from their adherents.

[drz]

Great posts fellas. Did Chino stop when he lost against Hardcore and GBK ? Why did Pandi and Nine Milli never meet ?
Overhere as well I've been very disappointed by the Reno stuff. Very low percentage stuff. The Bull stuff (Buck x QOH ) is throwing much better percentages. The Ernie blood ( Right Hand Man x Twiggy ) was much gamer as well : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=287606 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=287606). It even helped the Ch Reno blood to be decent and competitive. Thanks for sharing your experience.
TFX what has been your experience with both the Chino blood and the Comanche stuff ?
The Flash blood overhere coming from G. Bell did pretty well and showed some serious bottom end : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=146229 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=146229)


Good to see you around Reservoir. Very nice stuff you posted there.



Admin Note: Divergent thread topic moved here (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?684).

[turkd3000]

I'm a fan of the blood and was wandering were there any good stories out there on him?

[turkd3000]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=299635
not pure boyles but the best i ever had

[Officially Retired]

I've only seen two Red Johnny dogs go ... one was named LA Pit Crew's Golden Boy, who won his first in like 2:10, and the other was one of the Old Man's dogs who was a 4xW ... but was done wrong on his 5th and was stopped in like 2:30, but it was by no means a punk stoppage. The dog had babesia and basically fought awfully close to the point of death before he just stood, then collapsed.

Jack

[turkd3000]

good stuff jack...i haven't had alot of experience with different strains of the boyles line but as far as production % outside of a few cold and late starters this guy never did us wrong...http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=330731

[TFX]

1/4 of that Otter's Sweet Pea blood in there could do wonders for staying power.

[SHOWBOX]

Ms. Luther (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3168)

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=424912

SHOWBOX

[Dogman]

Great posts fellas. Did Chino stop when he lost against Hardcore and GBK ? Why did Pandi and Nine Milli never meet ?
Overhere as well I've been very disappointed by the Reno stuff. Very low percentage stuff. The Bull stuff (Buck x QOH ) is throwing much better percentages. The Ernie blood ( Right Hand Man x Twiggy ) was much gamer as well : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=287606 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=287606). It even helped the Ch Reno blood to be decent and competitive. Thanks for sharing your experience.
TFX what has been your experience with both the Chino blood and the Comanche stuff ?
The Flash blood overhere coming from G. Bell did pretty well and showed some serious bottom end : http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=146229 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=146229)

This is all hear say from what I heard so take it like a grain of salt , technically Chino didn't quit because he was picked up, but he was making and showing all kinds of bad signs.

But Chino seems to be producing some good ones.

[TFX]

I would add on the nice pedigree SHOWBOX posted that while there is a Boyles bred base behind that gyp, there is a lot of other breeder influence in there too. Up front it is mostly STP, and ironically they really never classified themselves as breeders.

[FrostyPaws]

I guess I'm late coming to this particular party, but I would have to agree with TFX's opinion regarding Boyles dogs. Some of the first dogs I started with in the early 90s were dogs off Spark Plug, and they were the only quality Boyles dogs I fed with any type of regularity. Everything else I ever ended up with off Champions, Gr. Champions, ROM dogs were low percentage dogs that I wouldn't even think of feeding to this day. I've always loved how those dogs were bred, but there simply wasn't enough bottom end in those dogs for me. I also never saw all the mouth or the ability that people claim to see from these dogs, but that could lead to an entirely different thread on viewpoints on such things. As a whole, they were low percentage, rank dogs on average.

Turk, I could've taken Reed home back in the 90s before he ever went down South. Reed, and his brother Reny, were both 1xw and 1xL. Both lost to dogs that eventually became Grand Champions. Reed lost to Troublesome, and Reny lost to Spanky. They both lost on their opponent's championship matches. All the other dogs from that litter quit. While they weren't all rank, there weren't any others that showed anything promising bottom end wise. I don't know how Reed actually ended up producing when he went South, but I know Reny only produced one quality dog out of the limited breedings down with him once he went back to WCC.

[BLACKDAWGICE]

if indio took the count how was that a draw?

[Officially Retired]

If a scratch to win was a stipulation.

[Moechief]

I know this post is from long ago and I must have missed this but quite an interesting read with some points added that I whole heartedly agree with. Some will be disappointments as such is the case in every line you decide to run but for A line that is so called mean and nasty curs..there are so many great dogs that was simply not mentioned and if I may I would like to mention them...and I ask where did the STP get his Boyles dogs from?

Jersey Boys Ch Sarge

Jersey Boys Ch Black Bumpus

Jersey Boys Gr. Ch. Running Candy

Jersey Boys Ch. Dirty Becky

Jersey Boys Ch. Black Paz

Chambers Ch Black Paz Jr

MCK Kimmie Girl ( proved to to be game as a one could be)

I love what Backstreet was able to do with one phenomenal bitch ..Dirty Jersey...but let's give credit to where she come from...J was a top rate fella I have had the pleasure to meet in person before all the bullshit...

Ch Rolex was a good one...owned by good camp...Strictly Business had plenty of Great Ones of their own but who did they come up under....I believe the line has produced many phenomenal winning athletes and will continue to put winners on the ground. If you ask Ronald, he would say you ain't doing right if you are not breeding them but as he has people around him he can be selective as to what he breeds..isnt that the key to anything?

[HLC219]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=66451

Not pure, but definitely working

[apeman]

Where are the good boyles dogs now?