pedigrees

[bolero]

not sure who keeps erasing my peds but stop please boleros ped is wrong stomper is out of amos but amos is off of rascal this is a fact coming from the man who owned stomper bolero and black rose i changed them so i can get the right inbreeding coefficient so please stop deleting them

[BRICKFACE]

My moderators are erasing them because we do not accept duplicate pedigrees in this database. So if you need changes made you need to post here instead of making duplicate pedigrees and we will assist you.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?1915-gt-gt-gt-PEDIGREES-(DUPLICATES-NAME-CHANGES-etc-)-THAT-NEED-DELETING-OR-FIXING-lt-lt-lt

[S_B]

not sure who keeps erasing my peds but stop please boleros ped is wrong stomper is out of amos but amos is off of rascal this is a fact coming from the man who owned stomper bolero and black rose i changed them so i can get the right inbreeding coefficient so please stop deleting them

Bolero I was the one deleting that garbage you were entering. You're what I'd call a senior member here, hell been here longer than myself. You should know how efficiently we try to run this database. And you should be well aware of the rules here.

As far as Garner's Amos being off of Rascal, while I have heard that story I've also heard he was actually off of Stephenson's Bullet, a son of Rascal.

I'm looking into that as I type, and I'll report my findings. Apeman has already changed Amos' ped to Rascal, but we will get to the bottom of it as best we can.

S_B

[S_B]

So I'm being told Stephenson's Bullet is Amos' original ADBA registered name, he is off of Rascal.

S_B

[apeman]

Is Amos/Bullet's dam Brewers Lady or Stephenson's Clementine?

[CYJ]

All of the internet sites and Garner's kennel site show the Garner's Amos dog's sire as Snooty and Dam is Brewer's Lady. IMHO, Seems that Garner would know best who the Amos dog's sire and dam would be. If Amos had been sired by the J. Crenshaw Rascal dog. Sure Garner would not mind that one bit and would have shown it as so.

Unless one has the original ADBA papers showing other wise, which I would assume Garner has the ADBA papers. No need to change this dog's pedigree. There was a Amos II dog as well. Cheers

[CYJ]

Stephenson had a full sibling brother to Garner's Amos called Stephenson's Little Snooty. That should pretty well solve the mystery of the sire of Garner's Amos. Another male sibling to Garner's Amos was Stephenson's Sam.

It was Stephenson's Bullet whose sire is J. Crenshaw's Rascal and Dam was Brewer's Lady. Making this Bullet dog a half Sibling to Garner's Amos.

Both of these breeding's' were a blending of those (Texas Tea) Tudor's Dibo/Lightner/E.Crenshaw/ Carver dogs to these older N.C. bred dogs of Howard Teal/ Loposay/ Burkette/ and Pratt.

Did not check to see if any half brother to half sister breeding's were made off these two bloodlines. Should have turn out real well. Anyone knows chime in. Cheers

[bolero]

So I'm being told Stephenson's Bullet is Amos' original ADBA registered name, he is off of Rascal.

S_B

that is correct SB

[bolero]

here is what happened amos's mother had a full sister that was bred to snooty and amos's mother was bred to rascal the whole liter of rascal died bsides amos and amos was put with the snooty liter to survive
if you look at amos you will see he resembles rascal not snooty

[bolero]

All of the internet sites and Garner's kennel site show the Garner's Amos dog's sire as Snooty and Dam is Brewer's Lady. IMHO, Seems that Garner would know best who the Amos dog's sire and dam would be. If Amos had been sired by the J. Crenshaw Rascal dog. Sure Garner would not mind that one bit and would have shown it as so.

Unless one has the original ADBA papers showing other wise, which I would assume Garner has the ADBA papers. No need to change this dog's pedigree. There was a Amos II dog as well. Cheers

not to be an asshole but garner has not told the truth on a pedigree he has ever had his hands on and again it may say garners amos but garner did not own amos when amos was bred he bought him later and changed his name to garners amos

[bolero]

i love this site and i you guys are awesome but it is hard for me to use it to its full potential when pedigrees are wrong another wrong pedigree is DLC levi whi is really out of six bits black beauty and not black stret hooker. baby is my dogs mother so i know how her parents are bred they are levi and black street hooker and blask street hooker is out of norm and black sister and levi is out of 6bits and black beauty

[bolero]

would it be possible to get my privelidge back to edit my own dogs

Moderator Notes:
:-bd

Please post a list of the dogs you own that you want to edit.

[BRICKFACE]

i love this site and i you guys are awesome but it is hard for me to use it to its full potential when pedigrees are wrong another wrong pedigree is DLC levi whi is really out of six bits black beauty and not black stret hooker. baby is my dogs mother so i know how her parents are bred they are levi and black street hooker and blask street hooker is out of norm and black sister and levi is out of 6bits and black beautyso if the peds are wrong post the link so we can fix them, it’s very simple. We are a resource so use us to our full potential instead of creating duplicates and wasting our time doing double, triple, or quadruple the work fixing a mess that could have been resolved once if people followed the correct protocol. We are trying to be efficient and guys volunteer hours of their own time to this community, just a thought.

[bolero]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2693
This is Amos i have done the research and talked to the right people. Rascal is his sire and the mother clementine was actually a sister to clementine her name escapes me although it might be the dam CYJ posted

If you are not inclined to change this i will understand i just need it changed so i can properly use the inbreeding coefficient feature

The other pedigree has already been changed thank you and sorry for making your work harder

[bolero]

the only dog i need to edit is eli III But i can also not add bulldogs so therefor can not use the test breeding function which i would like to since i paid thirty dollars like everyone else

[CYJ]

Bolero, who owned and did the most breeding's with the Amos dog. Was it Stephenson? Was he the one that sold Amos to Tom Garner. Do you are Apeman have the UKC or ADBA papers showing this Amos dog's real pedigree? If not who is the person all this info is coming from. Hopefully no one that dislikes Tom.

Tom Garner has been in the dog game a long time. For anyone to accuse him of falsifying papers on a dog he bought and owned. Just on the he said and she said is not the way to correct pedigrees on this site. Stephenson has a pedigree of a sibling brother to Amos named Little Snooty on this site.

I am sure if Tom Garner knew for sure that Amos was out of J. Crenshaw's Rascal. He would have preferred it over Wood's Snooty. J. Crenshaw's Rascal was a far superior dog to Snooty. IMHO, was never that impressed with Snooty and saw Snooty stand the line against a young, sorry, but well conditioned dog named Watkin's OX. On some sites, maybe here, OX is shown as a Champion. Maybe two dog shows after the real dog show.

Brick Face and S_B need to weigh in on this before Amos is left as sired by J. Crenshaw's Rascal. Just because Amos is Black and white like Rascal does not make it so. There are black dogs on the dam's side.

When Cal. Jack let me change Paladin's pedigree. I along with a group of older dog men had took a good long look at Paladin's UKC pedigree. Before Williams had his dog registered with the ADBA. If had not been so, I would never had said anything about it.

If I am missing something in all this let me know. Best not too start changing old pedigrees because of a he or she said this or that years later. It all is messed enough as it is. Yet if a pedigree can be corrected the right way, it should be done. Cheers

[apeman]

Bolero, who owned and did the most breeding's with the Amos dog. Was it Stephenson? Was he the one that sold Amos to Tom Garner. Do you are Apeman have the UKC or ADBA papers showing this Amos dog's real pedigree? If not who is the person all this info is coming from. Hopefully no one that dislikes Tom.

Tom Garner has been in the dog game a long time. For anyone to accuse him of falsifying papers on a dog he bought and owned. Just on the he said and she said is not the way to correct pedigrees on this site. Stephenson has a pedigree of a sibling brother to Amos named Little Snooty on this site.

I am sure if Tom Garner knew for sure that Amos was out of J. Crenshaw's Rascal. He would have preferred it over Wood's Snooty. J. Crenshaw's Rascal was a far superior dog to Snooty. IMHO, was never that impressed with Snooty and saw Snooty stand the line against a young, sorry, but well conditioned dog named Watkin's OX. On some sites, maybe here, OX is shown as a Champion. Maybe two dog shows after the real dog show.

Brick Face and S_B need to weigh in on this before Amos is left as sired by J. Crenshaw's Rascal. Just because Amos is Black and white like Rascal does not make it so. There are black dogs on the dam's side.

When Cal. Jack let me change Paladin's pedigree. I along with a group of older dog men had took a good long look at Paladin's UKC pedigree. Before Williams had his dog registered with the ADBA. If had not been so, I would never had said anything about it.

If I am missing something in all this let me know. Best not too start changing old pedigrees because of a he or she said this or that years later. It all is messed enough as it is. Yet if a pedigree can be corrected the right way, it should be done. Cheers

I agree that no changes should be made on this site based on he say/she say. The ped in question has been a long time dispute with no official evidence to support it.

[CYJ]

If that is the correct facts. Then why has Garner's Amos sire been changed back to J. Crenshaw's Rascal after I put it back to Wood's Snooty. Bolero needs to show some ADBA or UKC proof since he never owned the Garner's Amos dog. Just because the pedigree has been a long time dispute. Is no reason to change that pedigree.

J. Crenshaw's Honey bunch has been disputed for years. Still disputed over even today. Crenshaw and Holcomb says the Honey Bunch pedigree is correct. That has to be the end of it. Fat Bill or some one else taped E. Crenshaw late in his life saying this or that about certain M. Carver dogs. How they were bred off his yard etc. May very well be true.

I have never doubted E. Crenshaw's dogs had a big influence on M. Carver's dogs. So did some of Peggy Harper's Am Staff dogs as well. Mr. E. Crenshaw should have years ago been man enough to call Carver out on those breeding's'. Let the ADBA and the UKC know what was going on. To late now,too many years have gone by, the horse is now long gone out of the barn.

I did a google search besides Tom Garner's site. All pedigree sites show the sire as Wood's Snooty. Was two discrepancy found. One was a (Stephenson's Bullet) besides Garners Amos. Which was a incorrect second name and was no change to the pedigree. Another was Wood's Snooty but the dam was shown as the Clementine dam. Still all had Wood's Snooty as the sire.

Stephenson's Bullet is shown as off J. Crenshaw's Rascal. Until real pedigree proof has been shown or if Mr. Felton Stephenson is still living and in his right mind. Can write or call Brick Face and verify the Garner's Amos dog's pedigree. No more changes should be made.

P.S. on those UKC papers of William's Paladin dog. Paladin at that time was a young dog. It was Jack Carver's Satch Mo or Satch Mo Bully on those UKC papers and not Maurice Carver. When I saw that, I asked Vernon that I had never heard of a Jack Carver but only of a Maurice Carver dog man from Texas. He knew Jack Carver since he had lived in Florida a good while before moving to the Beaufort S.C. Cheers

[EWO]

My pedigrees via Fat Bill's Miss Two Eyes show Snooty.

This is one of those that think we could find some common ground. Since I had better luck with the Snooty dogs over the years I prefer the pedigree as it is listed on this site, as well as other sites. If it is indeed Rascal, then being correct is the weighing factor.

If the pedigree is changed in the database then there are a ton of coeffiecents that will change in turn.

I do not have any of the Garner bred dogs but I have seen a few instances where I truly believe where things are truly not as advertised. The kicker is always I have no proof, and other than what I just typed, I give Mr. Garner his props and choose not to disrespect him.

I am all over the place with this and maybe not helping all that much but I would think it would be better to leave pedigree as it is, and allow a test pedigree to be made with Rascal to see the co-efficients and percentages.

Like the Paladin pedigree if there is indisputable proof that the Rascal version is true, then accuracy in pedigrees should take priority, and should be made true.

For me, I would not know where to start to find that indisputable proof.

EWO

[bolero]

the person who said it was rascal was the man that carried his bitch to rascal and the owner of stomper and bolero. does he hate tom garner no but garner sure hates him. it is not just the color of amos it is all the charecteristics of amos along with his offspring and his off springs offspring. when the wife of the man who bred his bitch to rascal to create amos says that amos is sired by rascal and she has no reason to lie since she is not in the dogs i tend to believe that getting ADBA papers will prove nothing considering many of those are false as well. explain to me why jack can change hammers ped with no proof just because it is the pedigree he likes. i also agree with EWO i have no problem making a test pedigree of AMOS. The man who spent his life with these dogs and put blood sweat and tears into that line to me carries more weight than garner who does not even use amos blood. This is not an i hate garner thread but i do believe the man is less the honest and he is a cause of a lot of controversy regarding pedigrees and more than one pedigree is in dispute with that man. he is a business man and a good one but that is all IMHO. Even chinaman who was not bred used or anything to do with tom some how got changed to garners chinaman through treADBA i could write a book on the false pedigrees put out by the man but i wont. I see nothing wrong with making two peds for amos and let the people choose

[bolero]

i truly just need the ped with rascal to compute the correct inbreeding coefficients because with snooty as the sire it makes some line breedings done look as if they are complete out crosses

[bolero]

i am really not sure how much proof to get. there are numerous people who say rascal is the sire including the man who bred him and only one saying that snooty is the sire. and the man who is saying that it is snooty is notorious for hanging papers

[bolero]

Also since we are fixing pedigrees Nikita was never bred to ripper the breeding never took place

[CYJ]

Hello Bolero. Mr. Stephenson should have like Mr. E. Crenshaw got his paper work corrected way back then. To late now when those like Loposay or Carver are dead. Some wanted to change the Finley's Bo dog or his sire to being off the Loposay's Bullet II dog. Were saying that Loposay told them that information.

Mr. Loposay was dead by then. Was to late for him to contact ADBA or UKC to have the pedigree corrected if he ever even said such.

You have Stephenson's Bullet to do any test breeding etc. with your dogs. Is shown as a half sibling on the dam's side to Garner's Amos. Bullet is shown as being sired by J. Crenshaw's Rascal. Bolero at the end of the day all that really matters is the first four generation of dogs with your name on them. Many times any thing beyond that is a moot point to worry or ponder over too much.

Unless you have in your hand a hard copy of the ADBA or UKC papers on a certain dog. You can only look at all the shown pedigrees on a dog off all the other internet sites. The ones that agree in the majority is the one you have to go with. That is basically how any of the moderators on here do it. You will get your best search info with Google.com. Remember to spell the registered name correctly and do a space and add apbt. Usually two to three or more sites can come up to look at and compare. Cheers

[bolero]

you are correct to a point. Now jack is a very smart men who loves inbreeding and says it is the only way to breed but i can show multiple scientific journal articles that somewhat disagree i recommend everyone go to the site for the institute of canine biology and learn about estimated breeding values and inbreeding coefficients and genetic diversity. no these are not the scientific journal articles i speak of but those can be found on google scholar and some are even about the APBT. now inbreeding coefficients are pretty much useless unless you go back a good number of generations like this site allows.

I will let everyone in on a little secret on why we do not see many inbreeding defects in our working dogs and it has to do with genetic diversity. Now jack is right when he says inbreeding causes nothing but brings out what is already there but he conveniently leaves out that the more you inbreed the less genetic diversity you have when it comes to the genes. now inbreeding/linebreeding is a great tool when used correctly but one cannot inbreed for ever like he says without seeing serious problems.

genetic disorders or traits that are caused by simple recessives can be set or gotten rid of by inbreeding and selecting against or for certain traits but when you have traits good or bad that are polygenetic it is not as easy to rid them from the gene pool or set them if they are good

most animal behaviours are caused by polygenic traits for example hunting traits in hunting dogs such as german shorthaired pointers or as i suspect gameness in our dogs.

inbreeding alone does not cause a loss of genetic diversity but inbreeding combined with what is called popular sire syndrome and using only one or two offspring each generation of that popular sire.

take a producer like jeep for example. let's say for example jeep was a carrier of a genetic trait that was not wanted by breeders. now as a carrier he would not express this trait himself. in fact in order for it to be expressed he would have to be bred to another carrier or another dog that expressed it. say this trait was fairly uncommon. then let's say you breed jeep 40 or 50 times like he was and a fairly uncommon trait becomes widely spread throughout the whole line and is almost near impossible to rid the line of this trait add on top of that that say only a couple sons of his were used to breed it would make it even worse thankfully as breeders of the APBT we all have our favorite lines sires dams offspring and the like and our genetic diversity is actually pretty good.

Another thing to study is heredity. now heredity is not that percentage of a trait being passed down it is the percentage of the varying degrees of a trait in a population. for instance gameness i believe has varying degrees from complete cur to dead game and everywhere inbetween. heredity takes into consideration genetics plus environment or nature vs nurture if you will. the problem with a lot of people is they believe that it has to be one or the other when in reality it is a combination of the two added together. an example is say a trait is moderately heritable which most behavioural traits are then selection for said trait will be successful as long as you breed for it and take into account environment. i say all this to say that if the inbreeding coefficient is skewed in one way or the other it can make a breeding look like an outcross when in reality it is line bred like BOLERO for instance who with AMOS' incorrect pedigree like it is now does not show the true value of BOLERO which in turn screws up all the offspring. so all i ask is to be able to have boleros' pedigree the way i and her breeder know to be true so i can see things more clearly

[bolero]

if you go to stephensons bullet on the other pedigree site you will see the picture of amos that is up here where it shows that rascal is the sire. but i can see that for some reason you are inclined to beleive garner who again had nothing to do with the breeding of amos at all. all garner did was buy him. so if you change it you change it i doubt i will change your mind. i just dont understand how garners word carries more weight than the breeder of amos

[CYJ]

Bolero I did just that and saw a picture of Garner's Amos with beside that a (Stepenson's Bullet). Yet when you scroll down to the pedigree. It show's Wood's Snooty as the sire and not J. Crenshaw's Rascal. I did not base my opinion on just Tom Garner's site. I looked at three or four other sites. The majority agree with Tom Garner's pedigree on His Amos dog. Stephenson's Bullet and Stephenson's Amos (Garner's Amos) are two different sibling dogs with the same Dam but different sires.

With no disrespect toward Tom Garner. I could care less about his pedigrees or dogs. I never understood why some buy dogs from Garner and other breeders and add Garner & Joe's Bill or Carver & Johnson's Bully etc. Why not just their name only since they are the owner of the dog. You have a owner and breeder section to use etc.

I have never owned or bought one of Garner's dogs or puppies. Garner owned some dogs bred down from my dog yard and C. Middleton's dog yard. Was Garner's Dolly, whom he bought from V. Jackson.

In no disrespect, the above thoughts on breeding etc. You need to place that info in paragraphs. Very few are going to take the time to read all of those jumbled up sentences.

IMHO I do not wish to get into a pissing contest with you. But you are starting to sound like that fellow from England that wanted to argue about the birth date of Tudor's Dibo and Boudreaux Blind Billy according to something Don Mayfield told him. Since he owned a lot of those last Don Mayfield dogs. Seemed everything Don said was the gospel period even though it was info from fifty or more years ago.

When we all got tired of arguing with him and told him he was entitled to his on opinion and best move on to somethin else. He got mad took his marbles and went home. While erasing a lot of pedigrees that created havoc on this pedigree system Took a couple of months are longer to fix what he did. Causing Ca. Jack to change some of the more liberal pedigree policy we had at that time.

In closing if you personally want Amos off of J. Crenshaw's Rascal so be it. Write out all of your personal hand pedigrees as such if you have dogs descended from Garner's Amos. Since you seem not to like Tom Garner. Change the name on your personnel pedigrees to Stephenson's Amos. Will not bother any of us one way are the other. Wish you the best with your dogs. How do you have them registered on this site and are there any pictures of your dogs? Would like to see the pedigrees and pictures. Until, Cheers

[bolero]

i agree CYJ i will separate it into paragraphs. also it is what it is i believe rascal is the sire and have my reasons now the only reason that other pedigree sites agree with garner's ped is because they just copied what was already there. that is usually what most sites do. like i said what i believe is not going to change anything. i just think garners word or whatever should not outweigh the man who bred amos and the man who used a son of amos to create a well respected bloodline. there are breeders and there are competitors and then there are those rare few that do both and i guess i respect those few more and take there word to mean more also. again no disrespect to you and as far as that blind billy guy he was nuts and i am not taking anyone's word as gospel i am just going by more than someone's word i am going by what i know about the line and the way they act and look compared to other lines down from snooty and they are worlds apart but whatever i will deal with what i have

[bolero]

as far as it being garner's amos well that is what it is and pretty much the only breeding that amounted to much was the breeding where stomper was born and tom did not make that breeding there are 8 breedings on this site for amos and tom made four of them. snake man made almost as much according to this site. Garner bought the dog when he was older he did not breed him or raise him. just because he has his name attached to the dog does not make what he says mean more than others. he has his name attached to chinaman to but i and a lot of other people think of chinaman as V&B's Chinaman since they were the ones that made him a household name. basically it is semantics he buys the dog sticks his name on there and magically people forget who made the dog which was i believe woods and abernathy and the people who used the dog for his intended purpose which was V&B. you are correct i don't like the man personally i believe he is everything that is wrong with the breed. he lies for one thing and has been caught falsifying peds is he the only one of course not but he still does it then he sells these dogs to anyone with some cash and sells to people who should not own a dog nevermind a purebred APBT. hell just in september alone according to his site he had 23 litters on the ground that is ridiculous. not only that he has the nerve to say he is the best breeder of these dogs 23 litters say they average 6 dogs a litter, that is 138 dogs produced and he will sell everyone of them and keep none for $1,500.00 a piece that is $207,000.00. i would love to see the percentages of good dogs out of 138. let's say 30% work out which is a low percent that is 41 dogs. To me that is the epitome of throw enough shit against the wall something is bound to stick. i just believe the man brings a lot of unwanted attention and somehow walks around free. there are just too many coincidences surrounding him.

[EWO]

Hopefully there can be some common ground.

I am not a breeder but I enjoyed the read above about genetics, diversity and heredity. Another hope is that this gets resolved and all parties are good with the end result.

My Miss Two Eyes pedigrees show Snooty. Based on the dogs I have owned and seen I prefer the Snooty version, not that has any factoring in what is correct.

If there is indisputable proof then the best practice would be to make the database as absolutely accurate as possible. I'm not sure if at this point there is enough proof to use the term indisputable.

If there is a way to make the pedigrees to get the information needed and not change the coefficients of a bunch of other dogs that would serve both parties. I am not a pedigree or database guy so I doubt I could help that much.

To tag the genetic/heredity comments and Jack changing Hammer's pedigree. My comment then and now is that it is not as simple as changing the pedigree as the next guy may have bred a series of dogs down off the Snooty version and then his numbers change and sort of tosses a wrench in his doings. I made the comment when Jack was making the change that if all those VG dogs were bred with Hammer in mind then later it was Rueben the breeding theories get really screwy. Hammer was bred one way but there were other Hollingsworth dogs used that were not exactly Hammer but it was a Hollingsworth blend. I suggested then maybe the line breeding was paper and the actual breeding was an out cross over and over. He told me I was a fuck-tard and had not bred thousands of winners and hundreds of champions. Short story tag this subject and post it in another section. It is a great topic/subject and you have a boat load of things to offer.

I do not own Garner dogs myself. I have seen some really good ones and seen some really bad ones. Like most others. This gets off topic of the original thread but I am his biggest fan. Not dog related though. He should be teaching a class at an Ivy League business school. He identified a desirable product. He made a capital investment. He marketed his product and he then tuned his product, his marketing and his business to a target audience/clientele. Over time he has tested the market with price increases and continued to hit the target audience with not only what they want, but with what they think they want. Over time he has also built a network that readily supplies him with the information he needs to change/adjust to the next wave of customers. He often buys back his successful products to perpetuate the business, again the combination of marketing and networking to ensure there is a return on every dollar spent. Pure business genius. This works selling dogs, cars or hotdogs. Pure genius.

But back to the original post. For the sake of the database I would think the Snooty version is most preferred. If there is indisputable proof then I would like to see it changed as absolute accuracy should be the end goal of this database, or any database for that matter. I personally prefer the Snooty version because a lot of my dogs have carried Snooty along the way. But that is not a factor as my personal preference carries no weight when it comes to accuracy as both Snooty and Rascal were a number of years before my time.

Hopefully there is some common ground that allows all to continue sharing knowledge, insight and personal experience in these dogs.

EWO

[bolero]

At the end of the day your right EWO i am being kind of selfish because it could screw up other people's peds if it is changed. I just know what i have seen and what i was told about this line of dogs. i will copy my post about genetics and post it as a new thread also

[CYJ]

Ditto EWO, you nailed it on the head. If one raises a lot of dogs and advertises them for sale. You got to sell the majority whether good dogs or bad. They are not like hogs or cattle, you can not eat them unless you are Korean etc. LOL Garner is probably the most successful dog man in selling dogs today. His business know how is pure genius.

If I was to start a new yard, I would begin with a dog man that has only fourteen dogs at the present. To improve on the dog keep that I knew how to do, that worked for me. I would spend some personnel time with you. Some things you talked about on this site opened up a whole new idea of doing things to me. Would have worked like a dream with my round table keep. Would have cut out a lot of excessive walking time for me. Cheers

[CYJ]

Hello Bolero. What name or Kennel name are you using on your dog's pedigrees on this site?

[EWO]

I am looking forward to it. I have never bred a lot of dogs as for me it has always been way more trouble than it is worth. But I do like reading about the subject.

I can read the scientific journals and articles with the best of them but they can get boring really quick. They often remind me of the professional Nanny that never raised any children of her own. If that makes sense.

I would rather here it from people who bred the dogs, worked the dogs and made the dogs. I'm CYJ's biggest fan as he put his hands or his eyes on the dogs that land on top of a lot of my dogs.

Same with Bolero. The best male I ever owned, and one of the best I have ever seen was a Bolio cross out of Miss Two Eyes. In a minute I will get up out of this recliner and give my self the daily kick in the ass for selling him. Even after all these years.

So when people post with the history and personal experience I always listen up.

EWO

[EWO]

That road travels both ways. I was truly paying attention to the turn table experiences you mentioned. I like it a lot. As a matter of fact I am about to move it under a shelter. The weather the last two winters has been hard on the old girl.

Like we talked about using the mobile home axle vs. car axle left it a lot more free than I expected. Not expecting the pure speed in which it would turn I did not do a lot of forethought concerning brakes. I had a nut job of a dog on there and he was turning it like a free spinning mill. What is worse is he was a dog that would drive himself into the ground running the anything. I put blisters on my hands trying to stop it that first day. As I was talking to myself I said, "What a frikkin' dumbass I am".

But with your help it worked like a dream.

EWO





Ditto EWO, you nailed it on the head. If one raises a lot of dogs and advertises them for sale. You got to sell the majority whether good dogs or bad. They are not like hogs or cattle, you can not eat them unless you are Korean etc. LOL Garner is probably the most successful dog man in selling dogs today. His business know how is pure genius.

If I was to start a new yard, I would begin with a dog man that has only fourteen dogs at the present. To improve on the dog keep that I knew how to do, that worked for me. I would spend some personnel time with you. Some things you talked about on this site opened up a whole new idea of doing things to me. Would have worked like a dream with my round table keep. Would have cut out a lot of excessive walking time for me. Cheers

[CYJ]

Ditto EWO. I know about that. LOL My table ran knee high sitting in a chair by the dog. I kept a pair of knee pads on my knees and leather gloves on my hands if something went awry. Murphy's law was always around the corner, waiting to pounce on me. LOL

One time I had a young dog get off the chain and run inside my building, while one of my dog was running on the table. I was scrabbling that night, the dog on the table was about to fly off to the moon. Had that table whirling. LOL

Matt White, the (Professor) bought my table and my eighty foot swinging Jenny.. Took it all back to his home and never set it back up. A dog man on here that use to know and visit Matt. Said it was all still there out in the weather. That was some years back.

Year or so after that my life had calmed down some. I wish I had not got rid of my table and my Young's Winchester stud dog and my Young's little twenty nine pound,. Black Betty female. Time to stand up and give myself a kick. LOL Cheers

[EWO]

I never worked with a Jenny as much as I would have liked. I built one once. It had arm about 27-28 foot. No sooner than I built it I decided to build a shop. That spot is the flattest I have so the shop took precedent.

I would have liked to try it a little more.

EWO

[CYJ]

I had no luck with my swinging jenny. The weather in the Pee Dee area is to changing for a outside Jenny. Unless a dog is brought up running one. A lot of dogs will not run one even when bait is in front of them. Or they will get frustrated and attack the mill possibly breaking a tooth. In cold windy weather a dog will not like running a Jenny no more than you will like standing out there in it.

Track gets wet or freezes up not much you can do till it drys out. The Jenny of the larger sizes seem to work best out in more Desert type weather like Texas etc. If one had a huge and wide type Barn or building. That gets you and dog out of the weather will help a lot. Still the dog may not like working it.

Yet even a first time puppy will run a big turn table. Seems a dog or puppy likes them like a Guinea pig likes a Wheel cage. Lot of dogs do not like noisy tread mills either or the strain one can put on their back end if over done.

I still feel that some walking before after and during, along with the table to weight pull and back to the table in sets. After a dog has had a proper pre keep. Is the Cat's Meow way in my part of the country. Cheers

[sam i am]

as far as it being garner's amos well that is what it is and pretty much the only breeding that amounted to much was the breeding where stomper was born and tom did not make that breeding there are 8 breedings on this site for amos and tom made four of them. snake man made almost as much according to this site. Garner bought the dog when he was older he did not breed him or raise him. just because he has his name attached to the dog does not make what he says mean more than others. he has his name attached to chinaman to but i and a lot of other people think of chinaman as V&B's Chinaman since they were the ones that made him a household name. basically it is semantics he buys the dog sticks his name on there and magically people forget who made the dog which was i believe woods and abernathy and the people who used the dog for his intended purpose which was V&B. you are correct i don't like the man personally i believe he is everything that is wrong with the breed. he lies for one thing and has been caught falsifying peds is he the only one of course not but he still does it then he sells these dogs to anyone with some cash and sells to people who should not own a dog nevermind a purebred APBT. hell just in september alone according to his site he had 23 litters on the ground that is ridiculous. not only that he has the nerve to say he is the best breeder of these dogs 23 litters say they average 6 dogs a litter, that is 138 dogs produced and he will sell everyone of them and keep none for $1,500.00 a piece that is $207,000.00. i would love to see the percentages of good dogs out of 138. let's say 30% work out which is a low percent that is 41 dogs. To me that is the epitome of throw enough shit against the wall something is bound to stick. i just believe the man brings a lot of unwanted attention and somehow walks around free. there are just too many coincidences surrounding him.


The man makes some damn good points!

[EWO]

Selfish is a stretch, but the intent is to make things right as you believe them to be, or even know them to be. It is just hard to change things after such a long time.

I have posted this a number of times before. I am not a breeder but I enjoy looking at older pedigrees. With that said, I do enjoy the posts concerning 'how this one was really bred'. They can get from 'just for your information' to 'your mama wears combat boots personal' in a quick minute. Still the same I enjoy reading the posts.

I have one in the back right now that is a good little female. I took a female of mine to be bred to a male that I truly believe is not papered as advertised. There are some things I would consider facts in my mind but I could never prove it without some forensic DNA work on a couple of dead dogs. She is a young female, and maybe she builds the resume of a Snooty, Rascal, Honeybunch, Molly Bee, Red Boy, etc. etc. that some day I can say, "OK, guys this how she was really bred".

This is a topic that has been hot since the dawn of the dogs. Some days it keeps the message boards moving and some days it keep the dogs moving.

On these topics I always quote/paraphrase Mr. Hughes. To know how a dog was truly bred all you have to do is win three or four or produce three or four. There will always be some SOB in the corner that knows 'how a dog is really bred'.

But at the end of the day it is not about being selfish, or which way a pedigree benefits who, it is about getting it right. Getting it right is especially important when it comes to a database, and more so when that database calculates information based on its entries. If it were not for the calculation portion ten pedigrees on the same dog would not really matter. Having a database and using the database makes making changes to older pedigrees a tremendous decision.

I have no viable information either way. Both dogs were way before my time and I do not have the insight of personally knowing the people involved way back then. I like the Snooty version but that is because I have owned a number of Snooty type dogs. That would fall into personal preference not proof one way or the other.

So I am for what is accurate not so much which dog should be on top of Amos. Having enough information to support a change in what has already been accepted is a tough task. If that task is met then I am for making things right.

Hopefully some of the test breeding features will serve the personal preferences and provide the information desired.

EWO






At the end of the day your right EWO i am being kind of selfish because it could screw up other people's peds if it is changed. I just know what i have seen and what i was told about this line of dogs. i will copy my post about genetics and post it as a new thread also

[EWO]

That is very accurate.

I'm his biggest fan as a business man. It is a model any young business person should follow. Forget the product as any product could be plugged in, but it is the model.

I met him once as a young kid. Again at a show some years back. And then at his pig picking year before last. I went to meet CYJ in person. If it were not to meet CYJ I would have been doing something other than baking outside in that wicked heat that day.

He sold two puppies that day. I saw a guy walk from behind the fence with two puppies and we were both headed to the parking area down by the road. I have no idea what he gave or what they were bred from. No idea. I am guessing based on advertisements they were in the $1500 range. (But like great business, it could have been these are the last two left and I need the brood pen so it could have been a two-fer deal) Regardless they bought two puppies and two gallons of water. We get to where the cars are parked. The guy has SC tags so it was good little drive. They put the dogs in the front seat. They lifted the hood. They did not check the oil. They just added a quart so I know they knew they had oil issues. They opened the radiator cap and added just about a gallon of water. One guy walks back up the path and refills the gallon jug and off they went.

I have driven some junk in my day and I an not knocking on that in the least. More than likely I have set out to go further driving worse. But never did I spend well over a thousand dollars on puppies when I was so close to walking back and forth to work.

So forget the dogs. Think about the business and the marketing he has accomplished. Pure genius.

When you plug in dogs the term peddler may apply. Look at the Olsteen fellow in Texas. He sells what people are willing to buy. From the outside in he is a crook but he fills the building every Sunday. Cars. Real estate. Horses. The actual product does not factor.

EWO




The man makes some damn good points!

[IWK]

A lot of people in the dogs hate folks like Tom because they're "peddlers". I couldn't disagree more. I think that, just like any other sport or industry, using the market to drive competition and improvements in these dogs is the best tool we have. Yes, some will have unscrupulous business practices, but in long run, the competitive forces of the market will drive better breeding practices, better health care for the dogs, and ultimately better dogs. Garner puts out a very large number of puppies each year, and maybe his percentages are great or maybe they're not, but if he continues to get good, tested dogs back from his customers for future breeding, they will definitely get better. Meanwhile, he protects his investment in the dogs by making some the greatest whelping and puppy pens out there just to ensure he loses as few pups as possible. It's good for him, and it's good for the puppies. Making these dogs a business is the best thing that could happen to them.

[S_B]

A lot of people in the dogs hate folks like Tom because they're "peddlers". I couldn't disagree more. I think that, just like any other sport or industry, using the market to drive competition and improvements in these dogs is the best tool we have. Yes, some will have unscrupulous business practices, but in long run, the competitive forces of the market will drive better breeding practices, better health care for the dogs, and ultimately better dogs. Garner puts out a very large number of puppies each year, and maybe his percentages are great or maybe they're not, but if he continues to get good, tested dogs back from his customers for future breeding, they will definitely get better. Meanwhile, he protects his investment in the dogs by making some the greatest whelping and puppy pens out there just to ensure he loses as few pups as possible. It's good for him, and it's good for the puppies. Making these dogs a business is the best thing that could happen to them.

I whole heartedly and very STRONGLY disagree. Making these dogs a business is the furthest thing from making them good you can possibly get. A business is about money over quality more often than not.

Take a look at other "working" breeds that have become a business. The German Shepherd, English Bulldog, Bull Terrier, Doberman....etc etc etc. Those dogs are a shell of their former selves, not to mention all of the accepted defects.

As far as your comment on how his customers are bringing him back good tested stock....this is another glaringly obvious reason it is not good to make the APBT a public business.

S_B

[IWK]

Other breeds have been destroyed because the customers demanded a product that had nothing to do with work. They wanted pets, not working dogs. To the extent that there is still a market for working dogs, there are some really great lines of German Shepherds and Malinois that sell for lots of money because the market demands it. The business incentivizes that breeders of those working dogs produce the best quality they can because they compete with each other to gain customers like police and military. Yes, GSDs have non-working kennels that breed crap. So do pit bulls. They cater to a different customer. But as long as there is a demand for working bulldogs, there will be breeders that attempt to supply them. It's a good thing.

Business has only helped Thoroughbreds. It's helped basketball players improve. It's helped every sport and type of athlete to up their game, figure out better fitness programs and better training programs to improve the final product: performance. It can do the same for bulldogs.

[CYJ]

Ditto, I can see both valid points of the argument of selling or not selling these dogs. It was said that Colby was one of the first dog man of his era that sold Pit dogs to the public. Many of the old timers frowned upon it. When the Bloodlines Journal first came out. You saw notable pit bull breeders selling or studding out dogs.

Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner did farm out some of their dogs time to time. But frowned upon selling them out right to the general public. They would have had no dealings with me. Had not my Father owned pit dogs and was active back then. My Father and Uncle knew Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner on a personnel bases. Mr. Teal's uncle was married to one of my great aunts. Anyone got into the dogs back then, you had to have some good references.

Mr.Teal and Mr. Skinner often called Loposay and Pete Sparks dog peddlers since they ran kennels and sold dogs to the general public. Yet they were never disrespectable to either as persons. Mr. Teal gave some advice many years back that helped keep me out of John Q public's eye for a lot of years.

He said these dogs should be bred and used for what they were bred for period. That these dogs were not bred to be Pets even though as a whole these dogs are very man friendly. Even Mr. Colby lost one of his grand children that was killed by one of his dogs.

Some other bits of advice from Mr. Teal. Was not to have compulsive gamblers hanging around you and your dogs. Are any thrill seekers looking for some new thing they have never seen. Lastly a hen pecked man or a man that is abusive to his wife or family.

The gambler can easily do something to your dog and bet against you. The thrill seeker will go back and blab what was seen to who ever will listen , including the law. The hen pecked man more likely will have his wife calling the law on you and him while at some event. The Abusive man is just another type of thug and best to stay away from sorts like that.

For what it is worth, I feel the better stock of dogs will be found on a small dog yard. Were the stock is checked along the way before any future breeding's are made. I have had close to one hundred dogs counting puppies. I thought at the time it would speed up my breeding program and help me know which direction I should go. In the end it was a waste of time by having too many bloodlines with a lot more money being spent.

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to peace and quite. Cheers

[S_B]

Ditto, I can see both valid points of the argument of selling or not selling these dogs. It was said that Colby was one of the first dog man of his era that sold Pit dogs to the public. Many of the old timers frowned upon it. When the Bloodlines Journal first came out. You saw notable pit bull breeders selling or studding out dogs.

Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner did farm out some of their dogs time to time. But frowned upon selling them out right to the general public. They would have had no dealings with me. Had not my Father owned pit dogs and was active back then. My Father and Uncle knew Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner on a personnel bases. Mr. Teal's uncle was married to one of my great aunts. Anyone got into the dogs back then, you had to have some good references.

Good references used to be the key to the good dogs, now a fast dollar and a few Facebook friends gets you access to most.


Mr.Teal and Mr. Skinner often called Loposay and Pete Sparks dog peddlers since they ran kennels and sold dogs to the general public. Yet they were never disrespectable to either as persons. Mr. Teal gave some advice many years back that helped keep me out of John Q public's eye for a lot of years.

He said these dogs should be bred and used for what they were bred for period. That these dogs were not bred to be Pets even though as a whole these dogs are very man friendly. Even Mr. Colby lost one of his grand children that was killed by one of his dogs.

Precisely why these dogs are not for everyone, and explained beautify below by you I might add...


Some other bits of advice from Mr. Teal. Was not to have compulsive gamblers hanging around you and your dogs. Are any thrill seekers looking for some new thing they have never seen. Lastly a hen pecked man or a man that is abusive to his wife or family.

The gambler can easily do something to your dog and bet against you. The thrill seeker will go back and blab what was seen to who ever will listen , including the law. The hen pecked man more likely will have his wife calling the law on you and him while at some event. The Abusive man is just another type of thug and best to stay away from sorts like that.

Bravo!!!!! :appl:

Mr. Teal sounds like my kind of people! He's 100% correct in my book. I look for the bad traits in my people just like my dogs. It is best to cull the ones you know will haunt you later if you don't. We're only human though...it has to be a constant and consistent effort.


For what it is worth, I feel the better stock of dogs will be found on a small dog yard. Were the stock is checked along the way before any future breeding's are made. I have had close to one hundred dogs counting puppies. I thought at the time it would speed up my breeding program and help me know which direction I should go. In the end it was a waste of time by having too many bloodlines with a lot more money being spent.

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to piece and quite. Cheers

Agreed again! CYJ, you never disappoint it is refreshing to read what you write here. I know you've often thought of leaving, but I'm so glad your heart keeps you here. :D

These dogs will eventually be gone, that is my belief. And it will be partly do to the fact that anyone can own them. I don't say that lightly being someone who strongly opposes my right to do as I please infringed upon in today's society.

What I feel is best is for those who do make the decision to own and work these dogs is take the same care in selling them. Be as selective where your dogs as as you are with your dogs.

S_B

[DuckDong82]

Way things are today. I would rather be a very good conditioner and handler having just one dog on my property at a time. Dog show is over dog goes some where else. Win or lose, you go home to piece and quite. Cheers

:idea:

[IWK]

Good stuff CYJ!

S_B, I definitely agree that breeders should be selective regarding who they place puppies with. However, that does not mean that they shouldn't sell the puppy to the selected buyer. A breeder can be both wise and selective and sell his puppies. I realize that not everyone will be wise and selective... but it can be done.

We all know good breeders who refuse to sell a pup. They'll give a few away, but they won't accept money in exchange. This seems silly to me. I think it's great that they're kind enough to give away valuable animals to the right people, but in the long run, I think it hurts they're own program. Unless they have some large source of money from elsewhere, giving away puppies means they have less to spend on improving their own yard. For example, some of these breeders feed low quality kibble because they can't afford higher quality or raw. If they'd sell those pups to good people instead of giving them away to good people, they might be able to feed higher quality.

[EWO]

As with all topics both sides have good points.

I'm not a fan of the mass selling of the dogs. There is no way to sell hundreds of puppies and still be selective. Simply can't be done. Another conversation with Jack on this topic. I never doubted the quality of the dogs, but I doubted the percentages, because it is just about impossible to find that many people that will do right by the dogs.
Placing 23 litters with people that will do right by the dogs is a real stretch.

At the same time I do not take it upon myself to judge those that do sell a lot of puppies.

If I were into selling things and every time I increased the price I continued to sell out I would in turn increase the price again. I would do so until the market told me I had over reached and then I would adjust with some killer two-fer deals.

Money plays a part in these dogs just like anything else. As soon as we talk about the price of puppies that will lead to talk about high dollar matches equating and not equating to high quality dogs.

As far as comparing the bulldogs to other breeds. There a lot of similarities. The biggest difference is stud dogs. Other breeds do not offer up there proven, high quality stud dogs as often as they do in bulldogs. In those groups when they have something that is working the only way to get it is by way of purchasing puppies. Even the top notch kennels committed to world class working dogs do not offer up their best dogs to stud to the general public, or even in private. The best chance is buying a female that works and taking it back. Some do offer them up but not near as much as in bulldogs.

The show breeds even less often.

EWO