Human aggressive pitbull advice

[APBT]

Hello Mr. Koerner,

I bought your book during Christmas time, a few months after I got my dog from a well known game bred apbt kennel. The reason I am writing is because I seem to have gotten a human aggressive pitbull. I bought him when he was 5 months sight unseen over the internet and he was the last of the litter ( whether or not the breeder new is something that is irrelevant at this point). He has attacked my family on various occassions, with a determination I have never seen before. The dog however, is wonderful and I believe he is game however he has that HA flaw. I attribute it to his insecurity around strange people and new situations. My question to you and I probably have many is how to proceed with this matter. I care deeply for the animal and have provided much socialization with the dog and my family and we have made great progress, but I know that I can never leave him alone with them ever again, since my family doesn't have the same amount of dog psychology awareness necessary to approach a dog so insecure as him. I contacted the breeder to get a replacement dog with the option of me keeping the dog (since I have grown attached to him and I will never give up on him) and he has asked for a video of the dog . That is where I stand now. Before I go any further with this matter I decided to ask for your expert advice and I would rather remain anonymous so as to not hurt the breeders and dogs reputation. I hope you understand. My question to you is should I breed this dog in the future from the same line and ask the breeder instead for a discount on a future more stable pup given the fact that I wasn't expecting such a liability? I was thinking of preserving this line and discovering what I have, as you mentioned people should do in your book. However, there is a good chance that the offspring will be HA as well, right? What route do you suggest I take? I can't help but think I was scammed, but I also read in your book that even from the best litters sometimes things go wrong and a recessive gene pops up. I've read that some dogman where tolerant of HA. Should I feel grateful of what I got, after all the dog is bred beautifully on paper? Perhaps I will have to wait and see what he produces and then I will no for sure? And even if his pups come out O.K there is still a chance that if I breed sister/ brother or another combination the HA gene might pop up again, right?


Thank you

[PurePit19]

Although the question is for jack, I have some experience with HA dogs. In my opinion, I think you should cut your loss and get rid of the dog. My reasoning is because your family is worth much more than any game dog, one mistake and your family can be forever altered. In my opinion, dogs that will come into your space in a aggressive mannor, even with those he lives with and raised him is unstable.... Not worth the risk. JMO

[scary]

I use to say that if you owned a pitbull that was like that needed to be shot but that was when i was stupid and still wet behind the ears. I breed an produced a dog that was so game and bread so tight that he wanted to hit anything from a cow to a person even down to a butterfly if it got in his circle. He loved me to death would eat out of my hand lay on the couch and curl up next to me. Now i am not saying i didn't talk to him before walking up on him in the dark. In all reality it was my fault i breed him to tight i also breed his mouth out as well. But once again it was my fault. I had to take serious precautions when i decided to keep him. I knew he be best in my hands cause the last thing i wanted to do was release another people mean pit into public and give them any fuel to the fire. So you hafe to put alot of carefully planning if you decide to keep him. I have breed him since then and have not had that problem yet not saying it won't happen again i just now know how to not BREED TO TIGHT. JMO

[QCKLime]

I, too, would love to see a video of exactly how he "attacks", visuals are always helpful :) Also, if you didn't receive the puppy until five months of age, there's no reason to immediately conclude that his HA behavior is a genetic flaw. There are any number of things his breeder or former owner could've done to sponsor such a temperament in a young dog, and then switching homes halfway through his puppy hood could've simply cemented his already insecure grasp of his environment. Unless his breeder has produced other HA dogs, and other people interbreeding his family have produced HA dogs with a regularity, I wouldn't worry too much about him producing maneaters just yet.

ETA: You need to work on socializing him with your family and other people while he IS still a puppy. If he's left with the impression that he can bully your wife and children and get you all to himself, then he'll take that and run with it. If he's under a year old, there's really no reason that your wife shouldn't be able to help handle this situation with you, he's still a baby and still very impressionable, so the quicker you start to build new, POSITIVE habits with him, the better. Right now, he's figuring out how he relates to everyone else around him, so the WORST thing you can do is just let him get away with his behavior, which is what you'll be doing if you simply remove your family from the situation. If he growls at someone, they should ignore him, not become flustered or intimidated by him, and CONTINUE to do whatever it was they were doing to him or around him. If he bites at someone, give him a nice solid smack and a firm NO. Any behavior that is playful, affectionate, or remotely positive towards a family member should be rewarded. He needs to know that people are to be ENJOYED, not something to be afraid of or aggressive towards.

[dtakennels]

1st problem is you are talking about breeding him already at 5 months old.....2nd is his line known to have man eaters......


3rd....When you say he has attacked your family what does this mean....Has he grabed someone and not let go or his he just wild as hell...

I have seen alot of people confuse high prey-drive and a dog that would bite you....Dogs with high prey-drive are not for green horns....

Last but not least if he has really grabed a family member you should have already culled him.....Get you a nice collie or something.

[Steeldog]

I got one that was raised in the house with my family and kids.. Really calm and good disposition. Only at around six months his mange and yeast infection got really bad and he was just miserable. He would growl at me and my wife when it was time for medication or time to bath. He would growl at the vet tech trying to give him shots. I was ready to literally put this dude down. I got some good advice from my brother who is a vet tech in another city.
He would tell me how grey hounds and labs who were the calmest at home would growl and go haywire at the vets office. Or how injured dogs would snap. These dogs were tired of being poked, proded or were just in pain and I realized my bulldog was the same. These are not human aggressive dogs. My dog is just miserable and trying to make it day to day. Another thing is it would be a different story if he really made a move to bite and grabbed hold.
My wife really insisted we didn't put him down so I agreed to work with him as long as she work with him with me. How old is your pup now? Is he just playing or actually biting limbs and shaking? My bulldog use to grab hold of my childrens pant legs and shake. We put a cease to that. That was when he was eight to ten weeks old. He's nine months now and wouldn't pull that stuff.

[chincheck]

Good luck with whatever you decide. But for me, no dog can be both wonderful and try to attack my family with a passion of which you know its trying to kill or inflict great bodily harm.
Like I said good luck but be careful

[Officially Retired]

Hello Mr. Koerner,
I bought your book during Christmas time, a few months after I got my dog from a well known game bred apbt kennel. The reason I am writing is because I seem to have gotten a human aggressive pitbull. I bought him when he was 5 months sight unseen over the internet and he was the last of the litter ( whether or not the breeder new is something that is irrelevant at this point). He has attacked my family on various occassions, with a determination I have never seen before.

First of all, thank you for your order and welcome to the forum. I think you started things off with a great topic, that is going to be controversial, and yet very important.

To start off with, are you saying this pup has launched a full-blown attack on your family? If this is the case, I personally would kill the dog. If he is just playing rough, then he is just playing rough, and sometimes inexperienced people cannot tell the difference. However, if there truly is hate in his heart toward the people who feed him, then I would put the dog down or ask for a replacement.

Human-aggressiveness can be tolerable (even useful) with strangers, but absolute human-aggression (even towards people he knows) is an intolerable flaw, especially in a family setting! I mean, if you were on 20 acres, and had 60 dogs, and were a competitive dogman and this dog was just one of many on a chain, then maybe see if he's a good one. But if you are in a suburban neighborhood, and are keeping a truly human-aggressive animal in your family's home, then I would consider this to be criminally-irresponsible.



Hello Mr. Koerner,
The dog however, is wonderful and I believe he is game however he has that HA flaw. I attribute it to his insecurity around strange people and new situations. My question to you and I probably have many is how to proceed with this matter. I care deeply for the animal and have provided much socialization with the dog and my family and we have made great progress, but I know that I can never leave him alone with them ever again, since my family doesn't have the same amount of dog psychology awareness necessary to approach a dog so insecure as him.


It doesn't sound like there is anything "wonderful" about the dog; he sounds like a tragedy waiting to happen. You simply don't have enough perspective to see the full picture. You are confusing your "attachment" to him, because he's "yours," with the dog actually having wonderful qualities. Truly wonderful dogs are not so stupid, or reckless/indiscriminate, that they attack their owners. It is as simple as that.



Hello Mr. Koerner,
I contacted the breeder to get a replacement dog with the option of me keeping the dog (since I have grown attached to him and I will never give up on him) and he has asked for a video of the dog . That is where I stand now. Before I go any further with this matter I decided to ask for your expert advice and I would rather remain anonymous so as to not hurt the breeders and dogs reputation. I hope you understand. My question to you is should I breed this dog in the future from the same line and ask the breeder instead for a discount on a future more stable pup given the fact that I wasn't expecting such a liability?


I think you are handling this matter with class, and I understand a beginner's attachment to "his first dog," but my expert advice is that you need to get rid of that dog for the sake of your family (not to mention for the sake of avoiding an inevitable tragedy with a neighbor too). The last thing I would be thinking about was breeding this dog. You only should breed "what you want more of," and the last thing you should be wanting more of is an unstable, problem dog.

There are too many sweet, wonderful, temperamentally-fantastic dog to put up with a nasty, dangerous dog--again, especially in a family situation. Again, if you were a dogman on 20 acres with 60 dogs, and this was just one of many on a chain, then maybe see if he is worth a bet as a match dog. But AS A FAMILY PET this dog is the last thing I would be having around my family.




Hello Mr. Koerner,
I was thinking of preserving this line and discovering what I have, as you mentioned people should do in your book. However, there is a good chance that the offspring will be HA as well, right? What route do you suggest I take? I can't help but think I was scammed, but I also read in your book that even from the best litters sometimes things go wrong and a recessive gene pops up. I've read that some dogman where tolerant of HA. Should I feel grateful of what I got, after all the dog is bred beautifully on paper? Perhaps I will have to wait and see what he produces and then I will no for sure? And even if his pups come out O.K there is still a chance that if I breed sister/ brother or another combination the HA gene might pop up again, right?
Thank you

Again, what in the world are you trying to "preserve" here? Human-aggressiveness?

My honest perspective (based on raising HUNDREDS of pups) is that your pup is not suitable for a family, and (at best) should be in a professional dogman's hands, and (at worst) should be culled altogether, but he certainly is not a wise choice for a house dog in a family situation. The very fact that you fear for your family's safety should be a clue of what you need to do.

Get rid of this dog. Spare yourself (and, more importantly, your family) of a future tragedy. Get a new pup ... a truly suitable, happy pit bull (which is what they're supposed to be), and you will quickly forget all about this one here.

Good luck, and sorry if it isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

PS: I think putting it on video is a good idea, just in case you are confusing "rough play" for an actual attack.

[QCKLime]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.

[Earl Tudor]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.
I have to disagree. I've had 3 puppies that were truly human aggressive over the last 20 years from my personal breedings. Now that being said, mine were raised by and along with my kids, and got ample socialization. These pups were straight man eaters, and had a genetic flaw. If it is a genetic flaw, no amount of structure is going to cure him. In my opinion it is better to error on the side of safety (especially with someone that this appears to be one of their first bulldogs), for your families sake.

[Officially Retired]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.


Your beliefs don't necessarily reflect reality, and I don't think you have enough years in the dogs, nor have owned enough dogs, to have perspective.

Some dogs have minor personality flaws that can be worked on, and some dogs have no personality flaws at all, while some have serious disorders that are simply not worth the time (or risk) to deal with.

I have personally bought 2 dogs, both littermates, from the same breeder, and raised them the same way, and both dogs were 100% dangerous man-eaters genetically ... it was simply "in them" to be like that ... because I have never had any dog I have ever raised, of my own blood (nor of anyone else's) turn out that way.

Given the vast disparity of personality types, I don't see what is so hard to fathom that some dogs are simply man-eaters. Just like some people actually do grow up to be cold-blooded murderers. It happens.

Not saying this pup is a true man-eater (I haven't seen it), but I do know that truly man-aggressive dogs exist, and I do know that they are not suitable as pets. The responsibility any man has is to his family first, not to a dog he just bought. Sure, if the breeder wants him back, get a replacement. Or if he knows a serious, experienced dogman who wants the dog, give him away. Absent that, some dogs really do need to be put down. That is part of being responsible sometimes.

But that dog, if he's a true man-eater, has no business being in a family setting.

Jack


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[QCKLime]

Your beliefs don't necessarily reflect reality, and I don't think you have enough years in the dogs, nor have owned enough dogs, to have perspective.

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.


Some dogs have minor personality flaws that can be worked on, and some dogs have no personality flaws at all, while some have serious disorders that are simply not worth the time (or risk) to deal with.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, however, I don't believe that a PUPPY falls under the category of something not worth working with.


I have personally bought 2 dogs, both littermates, from the same breeder, and raised them the same way, and both dogs were 100% dangerous man-eaters genetically ... it was simply "in them" to be like that ... because I have never had any dog I have ever raised, of my own blood (nor of anyone else's) turn out that way.

Given the vast disparity of personality types, I don't see what is so hard to fathom that some dogs are simply man-eaters. Just like some people actually do grow up to be cold-blooded murderers. It happens.

Yes, some dogs are simply man-eaters, and not worth a person's time. However, this is a what? Nine, ten month old puppy? That he didn't get until he was five months old. It's one thing to raise a puppy, and know that you covered your bases in providing proper socialization, and they still turn out a rotten apple. Then yes, you can blame it on genetics and cut your losses. However, this is a puppy that he seems to not know a lot about it's upbringing, and hasn't given him an awful lot of time in his home, either, before jumping to the conclusion of "man eater." There are tons of people out there who misconstrue a dog's intention any number of ways, especially people who are apparently new to them. Maybe he's a rough playing puppy, maybe he's a puppy that's gotten away with too much and is acting out of being "spoiled" and would back down very quickly if the people he were "attacking" got onto him, maybe he's one of those dogs that "smiles", or one that nips out of excitement. There's an awful lot left up in the air without us seeing him to know what's truly going on, and the dog exhibiting "wonderful" qualities to this guy (assuming those qualities are temperament related and not something he's connecting to "gameness") means that he most likely has the potential to be a nice dog. It's exceedingly rare that puppies of any breed latch onto one person positively at such a young age, and denounce everyone else. It's even less likely in our breed. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's rare enough that I doubt it to be the case in this scenario. If he's a good boy with the original poster, then in all likelihood, he can be a good boy with everyone else as well, with a little discipline.


Not saying this pup is a true man-eater (I haven't seen it), but I do know that truly man-aggressive dogs exist, and I do know that they are not suitable as pets. The responsibility any man has is to his family first, not to a dog he just bought. Sure, if the breeder wants him back, get a replacement. Or if he knows a serious, experienced dogman who wants the dog, give him away. Absent that, some dogs really do need to be put down. That is part of being responsible sometimes.

I agree with this 100%.

[Officially Retired]

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.

With all due respect, owning "doggies" your whole life, and dealing with combat-bred pit dogs that are true man eaters, is not the same thing. Given your age, if you have been professionally-rehabilitating dogs since you were 19, this means you've been rehabilitating dogs for a pretty short amount of time ;)

And, truthfully, of the rehab dogs you work with at your local rehab center, I doubt many (if any) are actually man-eating combat dogs. I am not speaking of growly dogs that will nip or bite, I am talking about a true man-attacker: a true combat dog that will hit a human being with the same zeal and ferocity it will attack and try to dispatch another dog or cat. It is simply insane to talk about keeping a dog like that in a family setting. In fact, because you previously said "you don't believe in them," this pretty much implies you have never seen a true maneater before. Well, I have seen them before. They do exist, just as murderous human beings exist, even though "you" probably haven't seen one of these either. You need to come to terms with the fact that there are personality disorders in these dogs that "you" might not have experienced yet. Hell, I have never experienced one of these either in my own line, ever. But I sure have seen them in certain other lines.

Other than the maneating dogs I personally owned, I also personally knew (and was directly attacked by) the Kitana bitch, who was a straight man-killer. I am talking about she grabbed me by the skull and put about 50 stitches-worth in my head--and tried to go for my guts when I got her off and stood up. It is only because I know what I am doing that I am alive today, as Kitana was a 52-lb bitch. (Ask Mister on this forum about Kitana, because he bought her later in her life, and Mister and his whole crew all had to run and jump up on top of a car to get away from her when they got her out of the crate :lol: ). There was no "abuse" in Kitana's life; she was just a bonafide man-killer. I also know dogmen who have been in dogs longer than you've been alive, myself included, who have certain dogs that are so hardcore they need to be fed with a shovel. Even they as owners can't get near them. No amount of "rehabilitation" is going to make any true mankiller like that safe to be in a family situation. At best, a true man-killer can become a one-person dog. At worst, even their own owners can't get near them.




I agree wholeheartedly with this, however, I don't believe that a PUPPY falls under the category of something not worth working with.


We disagree on our beliefs then.

I strongly believe in genetics. Any dog that (without being mistreated) is so truly genetically-flawed that it would launch a full-blown attack on its owner, or his family, is not worth any kind of time invested trying to make it a house dog. You don't molly-coddle dogs like this, you kill (or get rid of) dogs like this. Trying to make a house dog out of a dog like that is like trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. Wrong material for the job.

I wholeheartedly support your work with abused, or mistreated, dogs ... and I think you are to be commended for doing so ... but I wholeheartedly think your beliefs (though well-intentioned) are utterly misguided and that it would be ultimately catastrophic to try to make a man-eating combat dog into a "pet."




Yes, some dogs are simply man-eaters, and not worth a person's time.

We agree, and this would be an instance of it.




However, this is a what? Nine, ten month old puppy? That he didn't get until he was five months old. It's one thing to raise a puppy, and know that you covered your bases in providing proper socialization, and they still turn out a rotten apple. Then yes, you can blame it on genetics and cut your losses. However, this is a puppy that he seems to not know a lot about it's upbringing, and hasn't given him an awful lot of time in his home, either, before jumping to the conclusion of "man eater."

Cut your losses? Think for a moment about the ramifications of what you just said! What if one of the "losses" you're proposing this man "cuts" turns out to be the loss of a baby or child's life? Or a neighbor's child?

Your error in judgment here is to put "the chance this pup might be okay" AHEAD OF the chance that it might not be okay and hurt this man's family. Surely you're not suggesting that some defective "puppy" is more important than the man's family! Therefore, "the risk" of getting rid of some pup that "might" be okay is flyshit compared to the risk of what might happen to a family member (or neighbor) if the pups grows up not to be okay.




There are tons of people out there who misconstrue a dog's intention any number of ways, especially people who are apparently new to them. Maybe he's a rough playing puppy, maybe he's a puppy that's gotten away with too much and is acting out of being "spoiled" and would back down very quickly if the people he were "attacking" got onto him, maybe he's one of those dogs that "smiles", or one that nips out of excitement. There's an awful lot left up in the air without us seeing him to know what's truly going on, and the dog exhibiting "wonderful" qualities to this guy (assuming those qualities are temperament related and not something he's connecting to "gameness") means that he most likely has the potential to be a nice dog.

I agree with you 100% here. IF the puppy's behavior has simply been misconstrued by this man, and IF the puppy is just a feisty pup rough-housing and not a real threat, then I agree with your sentiments completely.

However, IF the puppy is exhibiting the signs of a true maneater, then I absolutely disagree with you and believe the dog should be put down, or given back to the breeder, but should definitely not be in a family situation.

And I also agree that a video would be very helpful to determine, for sure, what we're talking about so we can all be on the same page.




I agree with this 100%.

Well good :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Jack


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[Officially Retired]

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.
I have to disagree. I've had 3 puppies that were truly human aggressive over the last 20 years from my personal breedings. Now that being said, mine were raised by and along with my kids, and got ample socialization. These pups were straight man eaters, and had a genetic flaw. If it is a genetic flaw, no amount of structure is going to cure him. In my opinion it is better to error on the side of safety (especially with someone that this appears to be one of their first bulldogs), for your families sake.


Exactly right. You canNOT hug and molly-coddle "all doggies."

Some dogs are simply dangerous and not worth the risk, just as some people are simply dangerous and not worth the risk, again (as you said) especially with a family on the line--and with a green owner to boot.

Jack

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[R2L]

good thread, good advice

i didn't read jack's book, but im sure you should re-read it if you think you can tell a 5 month old pup is game. id replace it immediately and let the breeder decide what's best for the pup

[wrknapbt]

I've owned dogs my entire life, Jack, and I work with them daily. I've been fostering "special needs" dogs since I was a teenager, and dealing professionally with rehabilitating them since I started working full time at 19. My career with dogs didn't start with my involvement in game dogs, I have loads of experience and perspective.


This is just my OP but in my years of dealing with this breed of dog and many other breeds I do not think/feel rehabilitating is something a dog needs to go thru. Rehabilitation is something based on HUMAN needs and not animal needs.

I do Schutzhund/IPO with my dogs and I do not deal with HA at all. I deal with clear headed animals that can see a threat and address it. I had a litter a little over 2 years ago and put two young adults down because they had issues. I do not deal with fearbased aggression nor shy dogs and all out aggression to humans.

Fear based aggression is developed when you have a shy dog that oneday growls because someone was about to touch or approach it but instead once the dog growls the person backs off. Kinda like kids ina playground or grown men shit talking/selling wolf tickets to get someone to leave them alone. So this bring them to the point where they have learned that they can give this reaction to keep people away. People asked me "why did you put them down?" Why would I place my problems on someone else is my question to them.

So anyway HA in anyform is not good in and you can put all of the bandaids/rehabilitation on it that you want but as soon as it get's wet it will peel off and show it's ugly head and make headlines again. Then we all suffer.

quick story: Had a friend with two really nice bred males that looked great standing on their chain spots. BUT they showed Human aggression issues. SO me being the bitework guy I look at them in the eyes and say to him they are punks who have learned to back people off with barks and growls . He was hell no thet dog will bite you.

I put on my sleeve and a leg sleeve and walked into the chain spot and the dogs ran into the dog houses. but when I turned my back they would come running out to nip at me. (bitch ass club punch)

He was shocked at what he saw. Yup school yard bullys who had someone stand up to them and they backed down.

[Marooda]

You should have done research on the APBT breed (and the history), the Breeder, and done an Aptitude test on the animal, which can give you a tremendous amout of information about it.

In your post you stated the animal acts insecure towards people and new enviroments which is an indication of one thing, the animal lacks socilization OR the only contact he had was abuse. The breeder could have sold the animal to another person and that person abused it (for one reason or another) then returned it to the breeder and more than likely neglected by the breeder when returned. Which to me is an indication that this breeder is a POS! There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.

A true game bred APBT will not show Civil drive, (the only way this happens is through outcrossing) nor display shyness or insecurity but rather shows confidence and true power and pure loyalty to it's master. I think you purchased this animal from a Backyard Breeder who only breeds to make money instead of making the breed better and could care less who buy his puppies. IMO I do not think you should get rid of the puppy afterall it's really Your Fault for not knowing anything about the APBT (but what you hear and see) not knowing anything about the breeder and falling for the BS that this backyardigan breeder laid on you.

I think this animal should be castrated and rehibilitated through pure socilization and love, given a job like a running partner or weight pulling or something in that arena as Bulldogs thrive on work.

I disagree with you wrknapbt, you said that rehibilitation is the needs of the human which is way inaccurate. If an animal is abused and shows distrust in humans, one of the best ways to correct this problem is through socilization and love AKA rehibilitation.

For the record, it is not my intent to make this post a heated discussion, So I apologize if I did this. I do not own an APBT but rather a fan of it's history, Spirit, Courage, and Tenacity and I do not agree with just anyone owning this breed, because in the wrong hands can be a time bomb waiting to blow.

[Officially Retired]

There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.[/i]

This is flat out untrue.

I guess you missed the part where Earl Tudor and myself have *both* have raised puppies from early-on to adulthood, the same way we've raised countless other happy loving pups, and these particular pups just grew up to be mankillers. It was simply in their nature.

Just because a dog is shy, or aggressive, doesn't mean it was "abused"; that is nothing but ignorant, tree-hugging propaganda. Sometimes it may be true, but not always.

The truth is, some dogs (just like some people) are simply genetic pieces of shit. Not every dog wants to be your friend, not every man wants to help little old ladies across the street. Some dogs want to kill you, and some men will invade homes of the elderly, steal from them, and kill them. This is why, when you have deviants like this, you kill them or get rid of them: they simply can't be trusted because they have malice in their hearts as part of their very nature.

I do agree that sometimes these defects can have to do with upbringing, but the simple fact is sometimes these things happen because the dog/man involved is just a defective, angry individual. The intelligent man would only keep a naturally-friendly, loving dog around his family, friends, and children. The fool is the one who leaves a naturally-angry animal alone with his family, friends, and children.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Just get rid of the animal. In my opinion, the human aggressiveness is an insecurity defense mechanism. They are born that way. More often than not, that dog wont make the cut when the pressure hits. I've seen the most human agressive ones be mild as can be after they STOP. All things being equal, you want a happy go lucky , I want everyone to pet me, I'll die trying to do whatever task you want me to do friendly BULLDOG. NOT TO MENTION..if he gets loose and mauls somebody, then you have made it hard for yourself AND all other responsible breeders and owners.

JUST MY OPINION.

A buddy of mine bought a human agressive littermate sister to a champion. She saw the hour mark and is the exception to the rule as it pertains to being HA and a bulldog. Interestingly enough, I never found out she was human aggressive until she left my house, she was never aggressive with me. I kept her for a week at my house while I bred her to Mr.Machobuck. I found out that she was human aggressiv when her owner picked her up and was terrified of her. At that point I said.. NO sir, I dont want pups. I want the stud fee. However, since I had previously agreed, I let him sell the pup to fund the stud fee. Your opinion may be different AFTER you get bit by a COMBAT bred dog. You may say that the dog deserves re-hab. But when a dog attacks you and is pushing to get in your thighs or groin, you'll reconsider. A 2xer grabbed my ankle pretty good and it was 6 months for me to get back on the tennis court. Weed it out. Cull that trait. Those dogs are NO GOOD. The risk is too high to your personal physical and financial well being, AND that of other responsible owners of the breed who will suffer the legislative consequences of your rehab attempt.

EK

[Marooda]

There is no such thing as a bad dog only irresponsible breeders and bad owners.[/i]

This is flat out untrue.

I guess you missed the part where Earl Tudor and myself have *both* have raised puppies from early-on to adulthood, the same way we've raised countless other happy loving pups, and these particular pups just grew up to be mankillers. It was simply in their nature.

Just because a dog is shy, or aggressive, doesn't mean it was "abused"; that is nothing but ignorant, tree-hugging propaganda.

The truth is, some dogs (just like some people) are simply genetic pieces of shit. Not every dog wants to be your friend, not every man wants to help little old ladies across the street. Some dogs want to kill you, and some men will invade homes of the elderly, steal from them, and kill them. This is why, when you have deviants like this, you kill them or get rid of them: they simply can't be trusted because they have malice in their hearts as part of their very nature.

I do agree that sometimes these defects can have to do with upbringing, but the simple fact is sometimes these things happen because the dog/man involved is just a defective, angry individual. The intelligent man would only keep a naturally-friendly, loving dog around his family, friends, and children. The fool is the one who leaves a naturally-angry animal alone with his family, friends, and children.

Jack
I am not talking about Genetics, I am talking about one animal, and that animal is the dog that the guy made the post about, I am referring to how he was describing the personality of his dog and based on what he said is the base of my conclusion. I understand you been through a lot with this amazing breed Jack and I respect you and your history and your knowledge, but it does not give you the right to title me a "Tree Hugger" or insinuate I am a "Tree Hugger" or accusing me of using "Tree Hugging Propaganda" this is my opinion and what I think based on my experience and based on talking to many 20 plus year dogmen and also using my common sense.
But Since you are referring to genetics, lets talk about that then, you said that "some dogs are genetic peices of shit" I agree with this, however if a one or two dogs out of a litter is a genetically unsound, the only thing that means to me, is that in that bloodline somewere there was heavy inbreeding and wasn't outcrossed before degeneration which greatly effects future litters. In my opinion, only hybrids dogs produce inconsistency in a litter, and one or two or three of those puppies will be bad apples. That is why I stated only true gamebred APBT will NOT show civil drive.

Let's say that one ABPT was indeed a man killer and wanted to kill a human with pure passion and focus and then wanted to eat the carcass afterwards, that also means something to me as well, that, that dog was MADE to be that way through either man made chemicals that altered the dog's brain housing group or pure abuse and yes that dog needs to be put down.

[Officially Retired]

I am not talking about Genetics, I am talking about one animal, and that animal is the dog that the guy made the post about, I am referring to how he was describing the personality of his dog and based on what he said is the base of my conclusion.

And that one animal is comprised of nothing but its genetics and how it responds to the world around it. I don't think either one of us actually has enough information to form a definitive conclusion about this particular dog, which is why I agreed with the sentiment to produce a video of it. What I said in my post was IF the dog truly is a man-eater, then it should be removed ...



I understand you been through a lot with this amazing breed Jack and I respect you and your history and your knowledge, but it does not give you the right to title me a "Tree Hugger" or insinuate I am a "Tree Hugger" or accusing me of using "Tree Hugging Propaganda"

You are mistaking my meaning. I am not accusing you of being a tree-hugger (I honestly don't know if you are or aren't). I am saying that the idea that "there is no such thing as a bad doggie" is FALSE and is the propaganda of tree huggers, who blame all "doggie problems" on owners or breeders, when the truth is some dogs are just happen to come out as pieces of shit. You are clearly are influenced by this thinking. This doesn't mean you're maliciously spreading propaganda, but you clearly believe this nonsense as the truth. As a man who has raised more dogs than 99.9999% of the human population, I can truthfully tell you some dogs are simply worthless, genetically, through no fault of the breeder or owner: they just came out that way. (However, if a breeder deliberately breeds and perpetuates such dogs, then yes he is at fault. But sometimes such dogs just "come out that way" without being selected for.)

Me? I am one of the last guys to want to put a dog down. I have given away tons of curs to good homes, because I don't like killing dogs. I don't want to breed or perpetuate curs, and my line is renowned for gameness, so I don't want to feed and waste my time with a cur either. So, if a dog of mine doesn't make the grade, yet it is a friendly animal, I don't see why it can't live a good life as a pet ... because I put a lot of time into my dogs to make them socialized. My dogs are by nature very friendly and well-trained, and by the time they're adults they are wonderful all-around companions, and I don't see anything wrong with placing a happy, friendly pit bull in a good home if it doesn't have the traits I need to keep my dogs at the top of the food chain. However, a people-mean dog is the last thing I would ever consider "pet" quality, and I have absolutely no misgivings about culling such a dog. People mean dogs are not "domesticated," by definition, and they can't make it in the wild either, and as such they have no place on this earth.



this is my opinion and what I think based on my experience and based on talking to many 20 plus year dogmen and also using my common sense.


Honestly, I seriously doubt any legitimate 20-year dogman, who deals in combat dogs, agrees with you; so I think you are making this up. Further, I don't have to "talk" to 20-year dogmen, I am one. I don't have to "ask someone what they think" either; I've been there, done that, and raised pups that grew up to be bona-fide manfighters ... and have personally been flat-out attacked by one. Further, of the multiple 20+ year dogmen I do know, not a single one would endorse your belief system.

What you are doing is confusing "your imagination" with common sense;
What I am doing is speaking to you from actual experience.




But Since you are referring to genetics, lets talk about that then, you said that "some dogs are genetic peices of shit" I agree with this, however if a one or two dogs out of a litter is a genetically unsound, the only thing that means to me, is that in that bloodline somewere there was heavy inbreeding and wasn't outcrossed before degeneration which greatly effects future litters.

No disrespect, but you simply have no idea what you're talking about. You are again substituting "your imagination" as to what inbreeding does, for actual experience inbreeding a family of dogs.

"Inbreeding" doesn't cause people-mean dogs, if that was the case every dog I have would be people-mean, as my entire line has been nothing but line-and inbred for over 20 years ... and is based on a family that was line- and inbred for another 20-30 years before that. My dogs are as people-friendly as dogs get, and as a matter of fact many can get along with other dogs too, as they generally to have the sense to know when they're supposed to work and when they're supposed to play.

Now, inbreeding on mean dogs, can lock-in mean traits, if mean dogs are kept in the gene pool, because the entire point of inbreeding is to lock-in traits. However, inbreeding can just as easily lock-in a great temperament too ... which is what my dogs have, and always will have, because I select for it (among other key traits).





In my opinion, only hybrids dogs produce inconsistency in a litter, and one or two or three of those puppies will be bad apples. That is why I stated only true gamebred APBT will NOT show civil drive.


These are just false beliefs that you have created in your imagination. While, yes, hybridizing does mix-up the gene pool ... man-fighting can be retained in the tightest of bloodlines, if it was present in the dogs said line was originally founded upon, and outcrossing can produce perfectly friendly dogs. Aside from the fact you just finished attributing man-killing to inbreeding in your last paragraph, thus directly contradicting what you just finished saying above, neither absolute statement is true. The fact is, there are highly line-/inbred dogs that are both mean and nice, and there are straight crosses that are both mean and nice also. Therefore, mankilling can occur in either breeding style, depending on the presence or absence of this trait in the gene pool.

Again, what I believe you are doing here is just "thinking out loud" without any real understanding of what you're talking about.




Let's say that one ABPT was indeed a man killer and wanted to kill a human with pure passion and focus and then wanted to eat the carcass afterwards, that also means something to me as well, that, that dog was MADE to be that way through either man made chemicals that altered the dog's brain housing group or pure abuse and yes that dog needs to be put down.


I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't know how else to respond to this other than to say you are simply making up pure nonsense in your imagination, that has absolutely no basis on fact or the real world.

First of all, being fed man-made chemicals has nothing to do with genetics, and secondly, speaking of "20 year dogmen," you just had three 20+ year dogmen (Earl, Evolution, and myself) directly tell you that this man-eating propensity is just "in" some dogs from birth ... which has nothing to do with chemicals ... so it seems to me like you just are completely disregarding actually-competent, actually-experienced opinions and are simply paying no attention to them if they conflict with your (invented) "beliefs."

I appreciate your passion for this subject, Marooda, I honestly do, but your actual experience dealing with either the results of multi-generational breeding principles, or in raising legitimate mankillers, is non-existent. Sometimes it is best just to sit back and read what people who actually have experience in these subjects have to say ... or at least gain the necessary actual experience yourself to ensure that you're qualified to debate these kinds of subject with those who in fact do have the experience.

Jack


.

[R2L]

time to get real, even healthy pups are getting culled all the time. let's say you got a litter of 9, 5 start up at 6 months, they other 4 are goners. not even speaking of natural culling. those people never sell pups, dont give away curs. hard selection, minimal waste of time and money.

jack tho, is a man with allot of heart for his dogs, i like that allot. but a man agressive dog who's living with and around people should never be mourned about.

[Officially Retired]

time to get real, even healthy pups are getting culled all the time. let's say you got a litter of 9, 5 start up at 6 months, they other 4 are goners. not even speaking of natural culling. those people never sell pups, dont give away curs. hard selection, minimal waste of time and money.

I understand how such hard selection tactics might become necessary, especially in countries that have laws against owning pit bulls at all. Can't give any away there.

However, the only trouble with selecting for "early starters" is the fact sometimes the later-blooming littermate will actually grow up to be the gamer, better dog ... IF given the chance to bloom at his own pace.





jack tho, is a man with allot of heart for his dogs, i like that allot. but a man agressive dog who's living with and around people should never be mourned about.

Thank you for that, and I agree there is nothing to be sad about by ridding the world of a people-mean dog.

Jack

.

[QCKLime]

Jeez, this thread blew up while the site was down....

Anyhow Jack, you and I aren't really at odds in this conversation at all, based on your latter responses. If the original post had come from someone who quite clearly KNEW what a TRUE maneating dog was, and was asking what to do with the one on his yard, the answer would be very clear cut. Everything I got from his post makes it seem that he doesn't have much experience in the way of dogs whatsoever, much less on how to decipher a rambunctious pup from one that is going to grow up and maul someone's child. If he had a puppy that had attacked a family member with the sort of intensity and intent you've mentioned in your replies, surely he would know what to do with a dog such as that without coming to a message board to ask for advice. It's unclear what exactly the pup has done to make him feel that he's HA, and apparently, he isn't HA to the point that this guy wants him gone, which leads me to believe he's a puppy that could be worked with. That still doesn't mean that this is the dog for his family, or that he's the guy to do the work this dog may need.

I've SEEN EVO around dogs, I KNOW he's a skilled dogman in how he handles them and handles himself around dogs. If EVO tells me to watch my ass around a dog, I'm gonna do it, because I know HE knows wtf he's talking about. By the same token, being a person who knows how to handle dogs, in my FULL opinion and experience, lends a big hand to how a dog relates to you -- which is probably why that HA bitch that EVO picked up was a total sweetheart to him, when she had VICIOUSLY attacked every other man she'd EVER come into contact with. Her previous owner once tried to "punk her down" (as workingAPBT mentioned in one of his posts) and she grabbed his leg and shook him off of his feet, he snatched up a shovel to fight her off, and she went straight to attacking that, too. The person matters. EVO's brother could tell me to be wary of a dog, and I'm not going to give it nearly as much thought, like with CH Sam. Apparently he liked to bite people, too, but that dog adored me.

That isn't to say that there aren't simply bad dogs out there, I know that there are -- I just don't agree that there are PUPPIES that far gone -- for instance, DTown told me once about a bitch he had, I think she was Boyles bred, but I can't exactly recall, but according to him, this bitch was BAD NEWS, ended up attacking his daughter and himself, and she had two littermates that turned out exactly the same. Simply bad dogs. And DTown is probably the most impressive human being I've ever seen work with dogs, it's like watching Buck Brannaman work with horses, he just has something. So in rare cases, yes, there are genetically irreparable dogs out there, that have no business being kept around. I just don't think, from this fella's description, that his pup fits that mold.

I'll agree that nine times out of ten, it's the person that needs to work on what they're doing, as opposed to the dog. Dogs respond to us, to everything that we do, they train themselves based off of our actions, and that is true in every case except for the very, very few who are genetically rotten apples who have literally NO desire to work with or please ANY person out there. And I've worked with VARIOUS breeds, with VARYING degrees of aggression, but you can generally tell right off the bat which ones will be okay and which ones won't. I've fostered American Bulldogs that had reached their limit of human attacks before being classified as a "dangerous dog", I've worked with an Akita who attacked a man and opened his stomach from sternum to pelvis (but it was some drunk who'd hopped into his yard), and any number of pit bull/pit bull crosses who would go after you full-frontal if you tried to approach them in a way they deemed threatening. I've had a dozen dogs that couldn't be worked with by anyone BUT me for a month or more, but all but TWO of them eventually came around, and are now in good homes that know about their past troubles (couples who don't want or can't have children, single military men, etc.) And the two I've had to put down were two of the hardest ones, because they both latched onto me almost immediately, and were perfect ANGELS, as long as NO ONE else was around, and no amount of socialization or training helped them get over it. There's always a time to throw in the towel, nine months old, FOR ME, isn't it.

[Officially Retired]

Jeez, this thread blew up while the site was down....
Anyhow Jack, you and I aren't really at odds in this conversation at all, based on your latter responses. If the original post had come from someone who quite clearly KNEW what a TRUE maneating dog was, and was asking what to do with the one on his yard, the answer would be very clear cut. Everything I got from his post makes it seem that he doesn't have much experience in the way of dogs whatsoever, much less on how to decipher a rambunctious pup from one that is going to grow up and maul someone's child. If he had a puppy that had attacked a family member with the sort of intensity and intent you've mentioned in your replies, surely he would know what to do with a dog such as that without coming to a message board to ask for advice. It's unclear what exactly the pup has done to make him feel that he's HA, and apparently, he isn't HA to the point that this guy wants him gone, which leads me to believe he's a puppy that could be worked with. That still doesn't mean that this is the dog for his family, or that he's the guy to do the work this dog may need.
I've SEEN EVO around dogs, I KNOW he's a skilled dogman in how he handles them and handles himself around dogs. If EVO tells me to watch my ass around a dog, I'm gonna do it, because I know HE knows wtf he's talking about. By the same token, being a person who knows how to handle dogs, in my FULL opinion and experience, lends a big hand to how a dog relates to you -- which is probably why that HA bitch that EVO picked up was a total sweetheart to him, when she had VICIOUSLY attacked every other man she'd EVER come into contact with. Her previous owner once tried to "punk her down" (as workingAPBT mentioned in one of his posts) and she grabbed his leg and shook him off of his feet, he snatched up a shovel to fight her off, and she went straight to attacking that, too. The person matters. EVO's brother could tell me to be wary of a dog, and I'm not going to give it nearly as much thought, like with CH Sam. Apparently he liked to bite people, too, but that dog adored me.
That isn't to say that there aren't simply bad dogs out there, I know that there are -- I just don't agree that there are PUPPIES that far gone -- for instance, DTown told me once about a bitch he had, I think she was Boyles bred, but I can't exactly recall, but according to him, this bitch was BAD NEWS, ended up attacking his daughter and himself, and she had two littermates that turned out exactly the same. Simply bad dogs. And DTown is probably the most impressive human being I've ever seen work with dogs, it's like watching Buck Brannaman work with horses, he just has something. So in rare cases, yes, there are genetically irreparable dogs out there, that have no business being kept around. I just don't think, from this fella's description, that his pup fits that mold.
I'll agree that nine times out of ten, it's the person that needs to work on what they're doing, as opposed to the dog. Dogs respond to us, to everything that we do, they train themselves based off of our actions, and that is true in every case except for the very, very few who are genetically rotten apples who have literally NO desire to work with or please ANY person out there. And I've worked with VARIOUS breeds, with VARYING degrees of aggression, but you can generally tell right off the bat which ones will be okay and which ones won't. I've fostered American Bulldogs that had reached their limit of human attacks before being classified as a "dangerous dog",


QCKLime, everything you've said about dogs responding to us is true. The trouble is a HOUSE PET is something that shouldn't require "professional expertise" to always be in control of it "or else."

For example, speaking of a person being good with dogs, I have been asked by 40-50 year dogmen to breed their unruly dogs for them, dogs they themselves couldn't control and get bred. Got it done in minutes, no rape box, no help needed. The Old Man had two of the last of his Robert T dogs that couldn't get bred, but I got it done for him. Music City never could get his Fleetwood dog to tie, I got it tied for him in less than :05.

Regarding people-mean dogs, the Kitana bitch was as savage (and @ 52 lb as big!) as any bitch you want to meet. She took 3-5 men to get bred every time she was bred ... and bit "someone" every time in the process ... including latching onto the forearm of her true owner. And yet, when Kitana was sent to me, I got her out of the crate immediately and bred her by myself. (Much like Evo, I didn't even think she was all that mean, because after a couple of growls she took to me right away.) Dogs just like me and I just like dogs. Admittedly, it was a pain in the arse to breed Kitana, but I got it done after about :30 min of struggling on the side of a hill in the rain, and again I didn't need 3 people to help or a rape box. Kitana did turn on me once, in a full-blown attack when she was with her pups, but I was the only person (other than her original owner) that could be around her--and she latched onto her original owner at one point too. Anyone else, Kitana would flat-out attack on site.

Yet still, even if I put in the work to make Kitana a lap dog with "me" ... is that really the kind of dog that someone wants in their home ... a dog that can ONLY be considered "safe" in professional hands? What happens when I take a quick run to the store, and the old lady and (God forbid) a baby are left behind ... and Kitana gets moody? No thanks!




I've worked with an Akita who attacked a man and opened his stomach from sternum to pelvis (but it was some drunk who'd hopped into his yard), and any number of pit bull/pit bull crosses who would go after you full-frontal if you tried to approach them in a way they deemed threatening. I've had a dozen dogs that couldn't be worked with by anyone BUT me for a month or more, but all but TWO of them eventually came around, and are now in good homes that know about their past troubles (couples who don't want or can't have children, single military men, etc.) And the two I've had to put down were two of the hardest ones, because they both latched onto me almost immediately, and were perfect ANGELS, as long as NO ONE else was around, and no amount of socialization or training helped them get over it.

Exactly, even you have had to kill certain dogs that simply had it "in them" to be dangerous, no amount of training could get it out of them. You may be able to handle dogs well enough on your own to deal with them, but here again do you leave a dog "like that" alone with normal people? Uh ... no.





There's always a time to throw in the towel, nine months old, FOR ME, isn't it.

Actually, I would have the opposite perspective.

From my view, keeping a people mean dog around a family setting ANY LONGER than 9 months becomes progressively more and more dangerous to the family ... the older and older the dog gets. A 5 month old isn't dangerous. A 9 month old dog is getting pretty close to an age where he can hurt and kill someone.

My Icon dog could whip grown match dogs at ll months of age ... hell he got on Phoenix and whipped him at 9 months ... and Tornado won her first match by kill at 14 months of age. So how long do you think it would be "safe" to leave a truly dangerous maneater in the house, with a woman and child, just to "try and see" if this dog can be rehabilitated? Even with an "expert" in the house, this is still terrible judgment, because the "expert" can't be there 24/7. As Evo mentioned, what if the dog gets loose?

I am sorry, but if that "poor doggie" was a threat to my wife and child, it would never have made it to 9 months at my house. There is simply no dog's life that is so valuable as to put my family at risk. It is my view that if I have to work "that hard" to get a pup just to be friendly, then that pup simply is not what I want in an animal. Why should I have to work that hard for some mean pup, when I could spend FAR more quality time simply loving a friendly pup? Why should any friendly pup have to sleep outside, while a mean POS sleeps inside?

It is my opinion that no one should have to "work" at all to make a family house dog friendly; any house dog should be 100% friendly naturally or it has no business being a family house dog.

Jack


.

[Abe]

Let's see if I can say this intelligently!
There is millions of truly great apbt in this world, there are millions of great curs out there.
Why on gods green earth would you put any effort to make a threat safe at the risk of your family? It really should be that simple ! Am I wrong

[Abe]

I sent a loved one to read this thread as a defense to our breed, she has only heard the medias input on our dogs so I've been trying to educated her and one for her biggest hang ups is the breed is aggresive so it will one day eat its owner.
I didn't read the thread just read the title and thought a perfect chance to have some vets tell her man biters are not tolerated.
After she reads the thread she comes back to me and says so a man biter is capable of being rehab or put in the hands of an experienced dog man!
Dam felt like a fool. I will never accept a human aggresive dog in any breed and I learned this from owning this breed!

[Officially Retired]

Let's see if I can say this intelligently!
There is millions of truly great apbt in this world, there are millions of great curs out there.
Why on gods green earth would you put any effort to make a threat safe at the risk of your family? It really should be that simple ! Am I wrong

You may not have the best writing style friend ( :mrgreen: ), but you were able to say all that needs to be said in the fewest words :ugeek:

[evolutionkennels]

Mr.Marooda,
I couldn't agree with you more Jack. KALO , I understand your view. MArooda, I want to in a very respectful way let you know that the bulk of your knowledge as it pertains to the APBT is wrong. I am also trying to get my head around why someone who doesn't even own an APBT is on a message board that is dedicated strictly to them. As a matter of fact, THIS board is dedicated to sub family of APBT's that have been bred selectively for a specific set of traits, all of which make the end result an APBT that is for the most part bred AWAY from being HA. You really should read up on inbreeding, linebreeding and selective breeding. Some of the things you said are just very hard to digest. Anyway, this post has gone on too long. I'll make it easy.

If Gr.Ch.Buck, Gr.Ch.Mayday, Gr.Ch.Yellow, and Gr.Ch.Machobuck were HA, I would be breeding a different line of dogs. As it is, this line that I breed are SO eager to please and people friendly that as 5-6 week old pups ,they actually puupy fight in a very rough manner competing for you to pet them. To ME, those animals turn out to be the loyal happy go lucky i will be there to the end dogs that we strive to preserve. Any HA at 4 months, 6 months, 9 months is just not worth it. Even if the HA dog makes grand champion, what good is he if he has a high propensity to produce the same? One of which may end up killing your baby, mauling your daughter, or killing someone else . This leads to legislation, and in the long run have a negative impact on ALL of us that are responsible with the breed. Lets stick to our happy go lucky dogs.

[APBT]

Thank you Mr. Koerner and to all the advice I received from everyone. I decided It is best to not post a video of the dog in order to protect the breeder’s reputation, my dog’s reputation, and my dog’s ancestors reputation. Everyone has their opinion and there is no way of changing people’s opinion. It is very difficult to convince someone to think a certain way if they do not want to. I have tried before, but it is almost impossible. Having said that I feel I must defend Human aggresive dogs. The words “human aggressive” explain the result but not the catalyst of what caused the human aggression in the first place. A better phrase to identify a dog that exhibits aggression towards humans could be reffered to as an “insecure dog” that when provoked either bites, growls, barks or runs away. In this forum we are talking about the ones that bite when they are provoked. A human can “provoke” an insecure dog in ways that would seem harmless in the human’s eyes, however through the dog’s eyes they are doing something that poses a threat. Something as simple as standing near an insecure dog could provoke them. Having the ability to read an insecure dog’s mind is essential when approaching one. When an insecure dog is born in a litter, my belief is that it is mother nature’s way of reverting back to its wild side. There is a reason deers, birds, wolves, etc. go away when there are humans around. The reason is fear. The fear is due to the fact that different species most of the time don’t understand each other. And as humans we generally fear what we do not understand. If these animals were not afraid then there would be no deers, birds, and wolves left in this world and everybody would have a wolf rug in their living room.

There are some people that have the ability to relate to wild animals. These people were able to set their fears aside and form a trust with mother nature that few people can do. Not everyone has this ability to give 100% of themselves to an insecure animal and establish a relationship of trust and understanding. But why do I compare “insecure dogs” with wild animals? Well, both insecure dogs and wild animals are very similar in that they are not “mans best friend”, they are very selective of who they choose to trust. They are instead a “few mans and womans best friends.” Only people that are genuinely willing to set their fears and prejudices aside and give 100% of themselves will form a bond with these animals. Unfortunately, if there is not a genuine bond then there is a chance of being attacked. For example, has anyone ever tried to “rescue” a stray dog from the street with the best intentions, only to find out the dog didn’t want help and ran away? The dog ran away because it was afraid and chances are if you would have tried to grab it, it would have bitten you.

I have been attacked many times by dogs throughout my life for many reasons. And many times I have felt angry at the dogs. I felt angry because I did not understand that the dog was actually afraid of me at that moment in time for whatever reason. Seven years ago I acquired a dog that was bred to indiscriminately fear everything and attack. If I had known that the dog was going to be fearful I would have never supported the breeder by buying a dog from him. I am not going to say the breed because I can’t stand the “breedism” that exists against dogs. I tried so hard to socialize this dog and try to boost his confidence. Constantly taking him out on walks and exposing him to different scenarios, and trying to make a positive experience out of everything. Seven years later, I am proud to say I have one of the best representatives of my dogs lineage. It was through my time and effort that I was able to help him become a more confident dog. However, I did pass many hard times, where I felt like a failure, because even with all the time I spent on him, his genetics were too strong. I now accept him for who he is and feel content with the more confident dog I have.

Having an insecure dog is like having a special needs child. You must always be one step ahead of your dogs thought process to see how he is feeling or thinking at that very moment. In a way you are forced to do this to avoid getting into trouble with society. For example, if you have an insecure dog and you are walking in the park, if someone approaches you all of a sudden, you must hold on to that leash like your life depended on it to avoid any problems. If you socialized your insecure dog enough then nothing will happen, but the leash will always have to remain short and tight in these instance, just in case.

Since an insecure dog forces the owner to get into that dog’s mind or at least try 100% of the time for obvious safety reasons, the owner starts to think like his dog and learns to see it transparently. This skill could then be used with humans. Many times I have been surprised at how fast I am able to read a person when I first meet them. I know if that person is a hypocrite, crazy, fearful, traumatized, ignorant, special, smart etc.. I owe this skill I have to my insecure dog, who again forced me to get inside of his mind and in a way forced me to change.

Many people advised me in this forum to put the dog to sleep. But in my belief, the “dog” is part of my family and we are all in this together. Society will probably think I am crazy, but I have much respect for mother nature and the greatest teachers in my life were dogs. They have taught me the true meaning of loyalty and love, simplicity, honesty, transparency. For example, a dog will never divorce you. Human relationships are too fragile. Human-dog relationships are forever like stone. We should learn from the dogs and keep it simple.

I truly believe that when my dog attacked my family members it was because they did something that the dog percieved as a threat. Again his threshold of tolerance is much weaker than a stable dog, so what they did to provoke the attack could have been relatively seen as harmless in human eyes but as a threat in his eyes. For the rest of this dog’s life I am prepared to keep everyone around the dog and the dog safe. It is weird, but when you have an insecure dog, you end up protecting the dog from feeling threatened and you become the guardian of the household. Through my experience with living with insecure dogs I can honestly say that they do not enjoy being aggressive. In fact they would rather avoid it at all costs. Therefore, the owner if he cares about the dog ends up protecting the dog from feeling uneasy for the rest of its life.

I have some theories on how insecure dogs can go unnoticed in a kennel. For example: take an potentially insecure dog and put it in a stable environment such as a traditional kennel in a wooded calm area for its entire life. The dog will eventually get used to its surroundings and appear to be confident. However, take that same dog and put it into a more dynamic environment such as a city and you will notice aspects of his temperament no one has ever noticed in its previous kennel home.

Another theory I have on how an insecure dog or its ancestors can go unnoticed in a kennel is the following: For example take an insecure dog and put it into a traditional kennel ( a nice wooded calm area) for its entire life, with an owner that has many other dogs. Lets just say, the owner or breeder is only able to give a limited amount of attention to each dog since he has so many. As a result this insecure dog has never really bonded with anyone and is more open to be petted from a stranger visiting the kennel. Now take that same insecure dog and put it in my hands, someone who spends so much time with the dog in parks etc. that people would say I am crazy and you will have a dog that no longer craves human attention from strangers and becomes over protective of its owner. I think this is what happened in my case. The rest of my family does not have the same passion for dogs that I have and I have spent so much time with the dog compared to them, that the dog never really accepted them in the first place and attacked because they were always strangers in his eyes. This is why I am trying to make my family members spend more time with myself and the dog, so that they will be seen not as strangers, but more as family in the dog’s eyes.

I am not afraid to say I am a beginner to this breed. This is my first dog from this lineage on paper and everything I learned was the hard way. I would like to ask for some advice. My dog seems to be a redirecter. A few months ago, in my ignorance, I had three dogs out in my yard at the same time, including the one this forum is about which I will refer to X. The two adults started fighting and X wanted to join in. I was able to separate the two adults, but since I blocked X from getting close to the other dogs with my arm he started biting at my arm. He grabbed my jacket and shook and tore my jacket. He then rushed towards me like a train wanting to continue to attack. I stretched out my arms locked my elbows and held onto his collar to block him from getting near me. After about ten seconds of me holding him in place he calmed down. I let go of the collar and everything was fine.

Another incident happened twice, in the park. When I walking through the park on two occassions I came across two dogs that were off leash. The dogs got close to me and circled around me. I noticed that X was getting excited and after a short while of this he bit me in the leg. However, he quickly let go. I wanted to ask if this is acceptable behavior? The first incident of the fight was scary as he probably would have done damage if it were not for my jacket.

Thank you again, Mr Koerner and everyone else from the forum for the advi

[HOMEWORK215]

this is the problem if it were just you then i'd say to an extent try to see what happens BUT KEEP IN MIND THIS IS A ANIMAL WHO ALREADY HAS IN IT'S MIND TO BE AGGRESSIVE THIS IS AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN CASE IN POINT I RAISE THIS DOG SINCE IT WAS A PUP BROUGHT THIS DOG FORM THE JAWS OF DEATH THE DOG WAS FLEE INFESTED. AND STARVED i got this dog back to health and trained this dog to the T this dog got attached to brother and you couldn't call my brothers name with out this dog going off but i have to keep in mind this dog loved women and children unless you came at my brother wrong i'm saying this to say if this this dog happens to get loose and decides to let his animal nature get the best of him watch out cause some body might get hurt so ask yourself is this dog worth the possible problem only you know so GOOD LUCK WITH THE DOG AND I HOPE THAT ALL WILL BE WELL ps if this hound is people aggressive and you talking about breeding this future dog what are you going to do with the pups cause in the wrong hand a people aggressive APBT is like a LOADED GUN IN A CHILDS HAND AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN.

[dtakennels]

Thank you Mr. Koerner and to all the advice I received from everyone. I decided It is best to not post a video of the dog in order to protect the breeder’s reputation, my dog’s reputation, and my dog’s ancestors reputation. Everyone has their opinion and there is no way of changing people’s opinion. It is very difficult to convince someone to think a certain way if they do not want to. I have tried before, but it is almost impossible. Having said that I feel I must defend Human aggresive dogs. The words “human aggressive” explain the result but not the catalyst of what caused the human aggression in the first place. A better phrase to identify a dog that exhibits aggression towards humans could be reffered to as an “insecure dog” that when provoked either bites, growls, barks or runs away. In this forum we are talking about the ones that bite when they are provoked. A human can “provoke” an insecure dog in ways that would seem harmless in the human’s eyes, however through the dog’s eyes they are doing something that poses a threat. Something as simple as standing near an insecure dog could provoke them. Having the ability to read an insecure dog’s mind is essential when approaching one. When an insecure dog is born in a litter, my belief is that it is mother nature’s way of reverting back to its wild side. There is a reason deers, birds, wolves, etc. go away when there are humans around. The reason is fear. The fear is due to the fact that different species most of the time don’t understand each other. And as humans we generally fear what we do not understand. If these animals were not afraid then there would be no deers, birds, and wolves left in this world and everybody would have a wolf rug in their living room.

There are some people that have the ability to relate to wild animals. These people were able to set their fears aside and form a trust with mother nature that few people can do. Not everyone has this ability to give 100% of themselves to an insecure animal and establish a relationship of trust and understanding. But why do I compare “insecure dogs” with wild animals? Well, both insecure dogs and wild animals are very similar in that they are not “mans best friend”, they are very selective of who they choose to trust. They are instead a “few mans and womans best friends.” Only people that are genuinely willing to set their fears and prejudices aside and give 100% of themselves will form a bond with these animals. Unfortunately, if there is not a genuine bond then there is a chance of being attacked. For example, has anyone ever tried to “rescue” a stray dog from the street with the best intentions, only to find out the dog didn’t want help and ran away? The dog ran away because it was afraid and chances are if you would have tried to grab it, it would have bitten you.

I have been attacked many times by dogs throughout my life for many reasons. And many times I have felt angry at the dogs. I felt angry because I did not understand that the dog was actually afraid of me at that moment in time for whatever reason. Seven years ago I acquired a dog that was bred to indiscriminately fear everything and attack. If I had known that the dog was going to be fearful I would have never supported the breeder by buying a dog from him. I am not going to say the breed because I can’t stand the “breedism” that exists against dogs. I tried so hard to socialize this dog and try to boost his confidence. Constantly taking him out on walks and exposing him to different scenarios, and trying to make a positive experience out of everything. Seven years later, I am proud to say I have one of the best representatives of my dogs lineage. It was through my time and effort that I was able to help him become a more confident dog. However, I did pass many hard times, where I felt like a failure, because even with all the time I spent on him, his genetics were too strong. I now accept him for who he is and feel content with the more confident dog I have.

Having an insecure dog is like having a special needs child. You must always be one step ahead of your dogs thought process to see how he is feeling or thinking at that very moment. In a way you are forced to do this to avoid getting into trouble with society. For example, if you have an insecure dog and you are walking in the park, if someone approaches you all of a sudden, you must hold on to that leash like your life depended on it to avoid any problems. If you socialized your insecure dog enough then nothing will happen, but the leash will always have to remain short and tight in these instance, just in case.

Since an insecure dog forces the owner to get into that dog’s mind or at least try 100% of the time for obvious safety reasons, the owner starts to think like his dog and learns to see it transparently. This skill could then be used with humans. Many times I have been surprised at how fast I am able to read a person when I first meet them. I know if that person is a hypocrite, crazy, fearful, traumatized, ignorant, special, smart etc.. I owe this skill I have to my insecure dog, who again forced me to get inside of his mind and in a way forced me to change.

Many people advised me in this forum to put the dog to sleep. But in my belief, the “dog” is part of my family and we are all in this together. Society will probably think I am crazy, but I have much respect for mother nature and the greatest teachers in my life were dogs. They have taught me the true meaning of loyalty and love, simplicity, honesty, transparency. For example, a dog will never divorce you. Human relationships are too fragile. Human-dog relationships are forever like stone. We should learn from the dogs and keep it simple.

I truly believe that when my dog attacked my family members it was because they did something that the dog percieved as a threat. Again his threshold of tolerance is much weaker than a stable dog, so what they did to provoke the attack could have been relatively seen as harmless in human eyes but as a threat in his eyes. For the rest of this dog’s life I am prepared to keep everyone around the dog and the dog safe. It is weird, but when you have an insecure dog, you end up protecting the dog from feeling threatened and you become the guardian of the household. Through my experience with living with insecure dogs I can honestly say that they do not enjoy being aggressive. In fact they would rather avoid it at all costs. Therefore, the owner if he cares about the dog ends up protecting the dog from feeling uneasy for the rest of its life.

I have some theories on how insecure dogs can go unnoticed in a kennel. For example: take an potentially insecure dog and put it in a stable environment such as a traditional kennel in a wooded calm area for its entire life. The dog will eventually get used to its surroundings and appear to be confident. However, take that same dog and put it into a more dynamic environment such as a city and you will notice aspects of his temperament no one has ever noticed in its previous kennel home.

Another theory I have on how an insecure dog or its ancestors can go unnoticed in a kennel is the following: For example take an insecure dog and put it into a traditional kennel ( a nice wooded calm area) for its entire life, with an owner that has many other dogs. Lets just say, the owner or breeder is only able to give a limited amount of attention to each dog since he has so many. As a result this insecure dog has never really bonded with anyone and is more open to be petted from a stranger visiting the kennel. Now take that same insecure dog and put it in my hands, someone who spends so much time with the dog in parks etc. that people would say I am crazy and you will have a dog that no longer craves human attention from strangers and becomes over protective of its owner. I think this is what happened in my case. The rest of my family does not have the same passion for dogs that I have and I have spent so much time with the dog compared to them, that the dog never really accepted them in the first place and attacked because they were always strangers in his eyes. This is why I am trying to make my family members spend more time with myself and the dog, so that they will be seen not as strangers, but more as family in the dog’s eyes.

I am not afraid to say I am a beginner to this breed. This is my first dog from this lineage on paper and everything I learned was the hard way. I would like to ask for some advice. My dog seems to be a redirecter. A few months ago, in my ignorance, I had three dogs out in my yard at the same time, including the one this forum is about which I will refer to X. The two adults started fighting and X wanted to join in. I was able to separate the two adults, but since I blocked X from getting close to the other dogs with my arm he started biting at my arm. He grabbed my jacket and shook and tore my jacket. He then rushed towards me like a train wanting to continue to attack. I stretched out my arms locked my elbows and held onto his collar to block him from getting near me. After about ten seconds of me holding him in place he calmed down. I let go of the collar and everything was fine.

Another incident happened twice, in the park. When I walking through the park on two occassions I came across two dogs that were off leash. The dogs got close to me and circled around me. I noticed that X was getting excited and after a short while of this he bit me in the leg. However, he quickly let go. I wanted to ask if this is acceptable behavior? The first incident of the fight was scary as he probably would have done damage if it were not for my jacket.

Thank you again, Mr Koerner and everyone else from the forum for the advi



you sir are the reason I no longer sale dogs....You asked for advice yet you had all the answers the whole time...In 8 to 10 months when that man eater jumps on a kid I hope you enjoy your time in court and I will thank you now for bringing even more bad press for our breed..

[Officially Retired]

Thank you Mr. Koerner and to all the advice I received from everyone. I decided It is best to not post a video of the dog in order to protect the breeder’s reputation, my dog’s reputation, and my dog’s ancestors reputation. Everyone has their opinion and there is no way of changing people’s opinion. It is very difficult to convince someone to think a certain way if they do not want to. I have tried before, but it is almost impossible. Having said that I feel I must defend Human aggresive dogs. The words “human aggressive” explain the result but not the catalyst of what caused the human aggression in the first place. A better phrase to identify a dog that exhibits aggression towards humans could be reffered to as an “insecure dog” that when provoked either bites, growls, barks or runs away. In this forum we are talking about the ones that bite when they are provoked. A human can “provoke” an insecure dog in ways that would seem harmless in the human’s eyes, however through the dog’s eyes they are doing something that poses a threat.

You're welcome for the advice, and I am sorry you paid no attention to the good advice given you. I do not have the time, nor the inclination any longer, to write too much about this topic again, as everything I could possibly say has pretty much already been said.

I will say I agree with your premise that it is impossible to change most people's opinion, as you provide a classic example of this. Where we disagree is on the level of expertise that is in back of different people's opinions, which thereby has to do with the accuracy of two opinions as they differ and relate to a subject. If you think that "you" (as a beginner who doesn't really understand what he's talking about), are going to change "my" opinion (as a man who's been around thousands of these dogs, and who literally "wrote the book" on this breed), that's a pretty high esteem you have for your green opinion. Unfortunately, sticking to your beliefs, even in the face of expert advice, while it may be the sign of a strong will, can also be a will to stupidity.

Your description of a man killer as being "insecure" is way off. What you are describing is a fear-biter, and they are not the same. A true man-killer (as I said, and you ignored) goes after people with the same zeal and intensity as it would another dog. What you described of your puppy is nothing compared to that, and is more akin to a fear biter and a dog that is not very intelligent. The description you gave of your handling of the puppy and the situation is basically beginner dog handling and the kind of thing all new owners go through with this breed. What you described about his lashing out at your family again sounds more like fear-biting, or a moody unpredictable dog, which is still an undesirable trait in an APBT. You simply haven't seen/owned far superior dogs to your pup to be able to see him for the unsuitable, inferior-tempered specimen he is.

However, since you refuse to show an actual video of your pup, there is no further we can go and no qualified "second opinion" can be given. I do not understand your unwillingness to show the video, as there is no way anyone can guess who the breeder is nor "who his ancestors are," neither of which holds any interest to me (nor, I am sure, for anyone else) either. The whole point of this thread being started, I thought, was to help you make a decision; it was originally created by you to get an expert opinion as to "what you should do" with your dog. But since you refuse to provide enough information (namely, a video so we can see), and particularly since it sounds like your mind was actually already made up from the start, there seems no point in prolonging the discussion.

I will say that what you went on and on about, regarding wild animals, has ZERO relevance to a discussion of what it takes to be a "house dog," as dogs are supposed to be domesticated animals, not wild ones, and as such are judged precisely by their suitability as happy, loving domesticated animals. The minor footnote as to "why" your dog lashes out and attacks, is not as important as the fact it does lash out. The very fact your dog does this means it is unsuitable as house dog, and your judgment to keep it anyway (because of some bizarre idea that a dog you got from someone else is "part of your family") is yours and yours alone to make. I personally don't "bond" to anything, unless it proves itself worthy of being bonded with. To form a "bond" with some poorly-tempered dog, just because it is "yours," at the expense of your family's safety (especially when there are thousands of friendlier alternatives) seems a dubious selection at best. The success or failure of any undertaking hinges on selection, and a wiser choice would be to select a better dog to make as part of your family, because there are plenty of "better dogs" to choose from than an insecure fear-biter. The truth is, everything you said about dogs that "haven't been socialized" becoming fearful is only true for lesser dogs, because I have seen (owned, bred, and raised) THOUSANDS of chain dogs that are perfectly friendly the very first time time they come into the house as totally-unsocialized adults, let alone pups, that would NEVER lash-out at a person. Therefore, your beliefs in regards to your pup are simply ignorant and based on no actual experience dealing with HUNDREDS of "unsocialized" bulldogs. Your pup doesn't act like this because he's unsocialized; he acts like this because he has an inferior temperament that may or may not have been socialized.

In the end, what you're doing is "inventing ideas" in your head, and you really aren't looking for "expert advice" at all, since in point of fact you've flatly ignored all the expert advice given, by several different knowledgeable dogmen, as per the first paragraph of your post. The truth is, what you're doing is looking for is everyone here to "agree with what you're doing," and you are hoping for us all to "commend you for what you're deciding," but you're not honestly looking to follow any actual advice if it differs from what you've already decided. I am sorry to say, but you're not going to get that kind of approval here, at least not from me, because I absolutely disagree with anyone selecting a man-biter (or even a fear-biter, as what it sounds like you have) for a house dog. Either temperament disorder represents inferior characteristics of what a true bulldog is supposed to have, in any case, let alone as a house dog. As mentioned, the success or failure of any effort all hinges on selection, and I personally (and anyone truly knowledgeable, not to mention anyone with even a lick of sense) would select a better dog to be around a family, and there are plenty of them to choose from.

Good luck though,

Jack

.

[AGK]

Mathematically it works out like this:

.22 Cal. Bullet = around 7 cents

Fixing the kind of damage surgically that one of these dogs can to to a child in a home environment = $10,000 minimum and that's nip & run. Oh yeah, and again 7 cents for the. 22 Cal. bullet.

The emotional and psychological trauma an actual attack will cause to you and your family you could never put a price to.

Doing the right thing for your family = priceless.

Like Jack said earlier in this thread, a good tempered pup will make you forget all about that
dog that doesn't sound suitable for a family environment.

[Earl Tudor]

I am not afraid to say I am a beginner to this breed. This is my first dog from this lineage on paper and everything I learned was the hard way. I would like to ask for some advice.
No you don't, as you have ignored the advice of multiple 20+ year dogmen. You CHOOSE to believe your theories which AREN'T based with ANY KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERIENCE with this breed. I hope your families welfare doesn't become a byproduct of the poor choices you are making for them.


Thank you again, Mr Koerner and everyone else from the forum for the advi
Thanking people for advice you're clearly not listening to, and then asking them for more advice, is asinine.

[APBT]

Thank you again Mr. Koerner and to everyone else for their opinion and advice. The fact is everything you say about my reasoning may be true and everything I believe in may be true as well. There is no way of knowing who is right and wrong in their beliefs because what is right for some is wrong for others. I just felt it was important to defend insecure dogs and my belief is that they should not be euthanized as some people have suggested in the forum. It is true, insecure dogs are a great responsibility to raise, but raising one is also a very enlightening experience as I have talked about in my previous post. Because they are probably the most difficult to raise then in doing so the owner will learn a level of animal psychology intuition like no other. If there was a way to breed this dog and not have insecure dogs as a result I would, but if the outcome of the breeding will be more insecure dogs then I won’t. As I explained from my previous post, If I could give my insecure dog that I lived with for seven years more confidence I would, and the last thing I would do is produce another insecure dog. Not for the sake of society, but for the well being of the dogs. Whether the dog proceeds to attack with the intensity of a “man killer” or as a “fear biter” is a different story determined by genetics.

However regardless of the intensity of the attack, my belief is that either way the catalyst of the attack was the same, a misunderstanding between two species (in this case human and dog) be it due to insecurity or lack of intelligence or socialization by either one of the species. In my opinion dogs don’t have malice in their brains when they attack like humans tend to do, they only react on instinct. I don’t believe in getting rid of something because it poses a threat. I am not God. If there is something I learned from this young dog is that under certain situations especially when he is happy he knows no fear. Therefore, I must learn from him and face this situation with no fear and much responsibility as well. But I can’t be fearful and run from the situation.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would answer my question on the incidents of when he redirects that I wrote about in the previous post. I want to know if this is acceptable behavior?

Thank you to everyone and I greatly appreciate and respect everyones advice. And just because I may not listen to everyone’s opinion does not mean I should stop asking questions. I feel I should learn as much as I can from other people’s opinion. A greater injustice would be to ask no questions at all for fear of being shunned.

[evolutionkennels]

Good sir,

It is people like YOU that are the reason why PitbullS are banned in some places. You dont LISTEN to experts. THIS DOG IS GOING TO HURT YOU OR YOUR FAMILY! CAN'T YOU SEE THAT? THERE ARE MILLIONS OF SUPER SOUND DOGS WITH SECURE TEMPERAMENTS OUT THERE THAT WOULD MAKE A BETTER COMPANION THAN THE TIMEBOMB THAT YOU HAVE. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT? I was halfway tempted to GIVE you a dog so that you could see what a REAL PITBULL is like , but after seeing how STUBBORN YOU ARE, HOW YOU HAVE COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR YOUR FAMILY, HOW YOU HAVE COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR THE IMAGE OF THIS BREED AS A WHOLE, THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU DESERVE A REAL BULLDOG. IT IS MY SINCERE HOPE THAT YOU DONT END UP IN JAIL FOR NEGLIGENCE, OR THAT ONE OF YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS OR NEIGHBORS ISN'T MAULED BY YOUR DOG. However, seeing your responses.. I think you will end up in a very sad predicament

[Officially Retired]

Thank you to everyone and I greatly appreciate and respect everyones advice.

You cannot respect advice you don't feel is good enough to heed.



And just because I may not listen to everyone’s opinion does not mean I should stop asking questions.

No, but what flat-out not listening to a bit of advice you've been given means (to the people who have painstakingly taken the time to give it and answer your questions) is that these people who previously took the time to help you, might form the belief that it is a is a waste of time to give you any further advice, as you seem to be the type whose mind is made-up already, and so those who actually know better will lose all motivation for continuing to help you, since whatever information they take the time out to give will only be ignored.

You mentioned you "always have to learn the hard way," and I can see how this might be true. As Benjamin Franklin once noted: "The foolish learn sense through misfortune."



I feel I should learn as much as I can from other people’s opinion.

You haven't actually 'learned' anything, because you're in the exact same "mental boat" you were in when you originated the this thread topic. Unfortunately, what you're getting here aren't "opinions," they're facts gained through experience. For whatever reason, you have ignored essentially the UNANIMOUS good advice you've been given, from several experienced dogmen, and are now merely repeating your ignorant beliefs again in each successive post.



A greater injustice would be to ask no questions at all for fear of being shunned.

No, the greatest injustice of all would be for one of your family members (or someone else) to suffer an injury (or worse) from your ill-tempered pet, all because you didn't have the basic horse sense to listen to the expert advice of the very people you asked for it, unanimously imparted by multiple veteran dogmen, who all told you the same thing: get rid of the dog and make a better choice for a pet, before something bad happens.

Now then, since this thread is likely to escalate, because of the sense of frustration I am sure every knowledgeable dogman has over your refusal to listen, I will be closing it now.

Good luck to you,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Thanking people for advice you're clearly not listening to, and then asking them for more advice, is asinine.

Amen!

Time to move on folks ...