OTC

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Do you consider an off the chain W or L a legit contest ?

[EWO]

Personally, I do.

Granted seldom is OTC actually OTC, at least one or sometimes both are somewhat prepared.

A true OTC would take the conditioner/conditioning out of the equation. Tons of dogs have won on conditioning and even more have lost due to poor conditioning.

An OTC should be a tru-er representation of what the dog is.

I also think OTC is a close cousin to doing the dog the first time on the cheap so it counts. Most that do the first one on the cheap don't put an all out keep. it is sort of like the final game test but with a little something riding on it.

I also think the disconnect comes when a roll is later is tagged an OTC win. If the contract match rules are followed then it is a match, worked or not.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Agreed and well put as always. Anyone have an opposing view ?

[Carolina king kennel]

OTC safer in these times but if u roll on a buddy yard for free dat don't count OTC 2me is in da box with rules and bread on da line ref or not but definitely a man that's neutral 2 both party's bc if u take the same 2 hogz and do a keep 9\10 da results would be the same 😢💯👌

[Coach]

No - it's not official

[brasso]

^BOOM

[EWO]

I have never understood why the OTC has been frowned upon.

What is the difference between two dogs showing up on an agreed upon time and participating in a match with Cajun rules who are conditioned and two that do the same but off the chain?

If the OTC is a roll that was later called an OTC then there is some issue there.

But if two people show up, with a referee and it is conducted the same as a match, for me, there is no real difference.


EWO

[brasso]

Perception. One pro, the other not.

[EWO]

Explain.

Why is one more pro than the other?

Two people show up with two dogs. Both dogs are of equal weight, or it is accepted that one weights more than the other, there is a referee and the rules are in place.

Even if the dogs are worked people come in over or under all the time and do the dogs anyway, pushing the weight or getting the weight, and still doing the dogs.

The only difference would be the level of the conditioning.

And if we delve deeper into the subject:

If you are a world class conditioner and a world class handler and when we get tot he show you out handle me, and your dog has more gas int he tank and in turn you win....

does that diminish from the accomplishment of your dog? you?

No it does not.

The set up has been the same since the beginning, you need a weight and a date. Both are agreed upon and then it is a go.

EWO

[brasso]

One is sport that requires skill and the other isn't/doesn't. Also, what are the odds of getting two dogs at equal weights OTC? Setting a date at equal weights is not OTC. Don't you read the Stratton books?! Lol

Anyway, in the US it's a felony and I don't really care, just making convo; Not looking to get into a pissing match with anyone, but you just don't like the answer.

In a few years this country will belong exclusively to vegans and fagotts. So while this is an interesting topic, it deserves limited attention. Let's face it, the only thing most of us are fighting today (if anything) is papers. And some people end up going to jail for that too!

[EWO]

Agreed in the progression of the world in which we live.

Just disagree.

Lots of scenarios. If two dogs show up contracted, and both fully prepped (professional, as it has been said) and one dog is not on weight. If the owner chooses to push the weight anyway is this not not 'professional'?, 'should it be deemed OTC'?

It is not that I dislike the answer I just do not see the difference between the two.

Never have, more than likely never will.

EWO

[brasso]

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules that say a dog has to be put through a keep per se. You just have to show up at weight. Over set weight you pay ff and you can opt to move forward (judgement call); cw you just have to show up.

I think the disconnect here is our individual interpretation of OTC. So here is mine (which may be incorrect): Exactly what is says: "off the chain". No planning, just get together at a moment's notice and may the best one win. No special attention to weight, "about" the same will do.
Do it at a moment's notice= OTC. Set a date= "official" or recognized as "legit" by most.

Seriously, it's pretty much in every book I ever read.

Set weight and date is not OTC to me. See? I even made it rhyme.

[EWO]

You are a poet and don't even know it ( I guess I can rhyme a little too)

I'd call that a roll.

I guess it is perception.

EWO

[BRICKFACE]

As far as I know, there is nothing in the rules that say a dog has to be put through a keep per se. You just have to show up at weight. Over set weight you pay ff and you can opt to move forward (judgement call); cw you just have to show up.

I think the disconnect here is our individual interpretation of OTC. So here is mine (which may be incorrect): Exactly what is says: "off the chain". No planning, just get together at a moment's notice and may the best one win. No special attention to weight, "about" the same will do.
Do it at a moment's notice= OTC. Set a date= "official" or recognized as "legit" by most.

Seriously, it's pretty much in every book I ever read.

Set weight and date is not OTC to me. See? I even made it rhyme.I'd call that a roll

[Osagedogman2015]

Most good dog men will have better OTC events than most others engaged in "Pro" events.

[Coach]

I have never understood why the OTC has been frowned upon.

What is the difference between two dogs showing up on an agreed upon time and participating in a match with Cajun rules who are conditioned and two that do the same but off the chain?

If the OTC is a roll that was later called an OTC then there is some issue there.

But if two people show up, with a referee and it is conducted the same as a match, for me, there is no real difference.


EWO

Who would do this and why?

If you love your dog and believe it's worth proving one way or the other that it's a legit animal, then why would you do this?

You are not giving your dog the best opportunity nor are you facing as good an opponent thus lessening the legitimacy of the win if you were to pull it off.

Supposed to do everything you can to make your dog the best and to do that, it should be in tip top shape, be at it's best weight, on the best feed and come in healthy, fresh, strong and ready vs the same. Otherwise, it just ain't legit.

JMHO

[Coach]

Explain.

Why is one more pro than the other?

Two people show up with two dogs. Both dogs are of equal weight, or it is accepted that one weights more than the other, there is a referee and the rules are in place.

Even if the dogs are worked people come in over or under all the time and do the dogs anyway, pushing the weight or getting the weight, and still doing the dogs.

The only difference would be the level of the conditioning.

And if we delve deeper into the subject:

If you are a world class conditioner and a world class handler and when we get tot he show you out handle me, and your dog has more gas int he tank and in turn you win....

does that diminish from the accomplishment of your dog? you?

No it does not.

The set up has been the same since the beginning, you need a weight and a date. Both are agreed upon and then it is a go.

EWO

If there's a date, you are running a serious risk of taking yours OTC and the other guy showing up with an conditioned dog. And again, YOUR DOG is at a disadvantage.

That's the whole point to doing it RIGHT. If a date is set and agreed upon, that takes out the BS of someone "setting" someone up with and OTC situation while they been working their dog for about 6 weeks.

Here you go....I been working my dog for 4 to 8 weeks. I call you out for an OTC and your dog really is just ON TC. Let's do it 2 weeks from today. Sound good?

You keep debating from a standpoint the MFr's in this line of business can be trusted....LOL

[Coach]

Most good dog men will have better OTC events than most others engaged in "Pro" events.

LOL....you are right
And let that sink in to some folks

[Coach]

EWO - doesn't look like anyone is going to change your mind, but let's back up in time and look at how this sport evolved.

It quite simply evolved by someone in the same neighborhood claiming his dog can whoop any dog in that neighborhood. Some accepts that challenge. They get together and find out. They didn't care about weight, condition or anything of the sort. It was the original OTC situation. Well, as humans do, they start looking for an advantage and realize, given more time and provided a few tweaks here and there, their dog may have an advantage over another dog is certain things are adhered to. This scenario goes back and forth over time and the sport begins to evolved. Size matters, rest, diet, exercise and all of these other things that make a difference are understood by the process of "pressure" to win. Eventually, we get to the Cajun Rules to level the playing field.

You are hung up on one particular point and that is your example of making weight or not and collecting FF. Lots of guys collect and go home and the other side just learned this dude is serious and they won't BS him on weight again, or they will avoid him. WIN WIN for the guy that collected AND HIS DOG.

I'm with Brasso - if there's a date and weight - it's not OTC. His definition is exactly the same as mine.

A roll is a hands on situation that is to benefit the student and rules are not adhered to in a strict manner b/c the student has to learn

[EWO]

If it is a roll and a schooling session then it is just that, a roll/schooling.

If two people agree to do their dogs and there is a referee and it is conducted under a set of rules, I do not see the difference in what the gathering is called, a contract or an OTC.

If two people show up and one is on weight and one is not, there is then a decision to be made. The smart money says collect the forfeit and drive away. That does not happen very often, unless them missed weight is a huge amount, 2-3 pounds over. Less than a pound most go ahead with the show. Most collect the forfeit and do the dogs anyway.

So if a dog is worked for a show, and one misses weight and the show goes on, this is a contract match.

If two people agree to do their dogs, and the weights are not the same, and they made the call on short notice, this is an OTC, which is frowned upon.

And I agree sometimes OTC is not actually OTC. Some will work their dogs prior, and I agree on the weeks of work mentioned above, and then making the call with more work than the next guy. I get all that.

Maybe the disconnect I have is that people think they can be set up in these dogs. That is another thing I have trouble understanding on one can feel he/she can be set up in these dogs.

EWO

[EWO]

Call this one:

Two dogs are hooked at the same time at the same weight for different shows in different places.

The first male gets a forfeit call early on the last week of the keep, three to four days out. His owner feeds him up a little and he is solidly off match weight. 2+ pounds over on Saturday.

On the Saturday morning of the match the 2nd dog collects his forfeit. The first guy gets a call, do you want to do your dog tonight?

His answer is that I just fed the dog so no, not tonight. They say tomorrow night? They agree to do their dogs with the difference in weight.

Is this contracted or is it off the chain?

EWO

[Coach]

I think this conversation has evolved from it's original topic, but that's cool as this is what forums are for.

Your point in that what it is called is right. Or at least, i won't argue your point. However, my point is that a true OTC contest is not as legit as a true contracted out several weeks, conditioned and set terms contest.

It's like watching the two best boxers in the world go at it. What do you want to see and which is more legit? They both show up out of shape at different weights but it's ight cuz they fight in the same weight class when they are conditioned OR do you want to see them go at it at their BEST? And which is more legit in your opinion?

[Coach]

And your last scenario, I don't consider OTC - both dogs are conditioned dogs

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=42272

This was a male I had some years back. he is the dog in the scenario.

On the Sunday I showed up well over 38, maybe closer to 39. They showed up a hair under their contract weight of 37. I did not want to do it and I made a half-hearted attempt to back out. I simply said this is not a dog you should give weight to and I do not see much point in wrecking your dog to prove the point. Of course, I was a chicken shit, my dog was a cur, etc. etc.

I should have walked away but I did not. First ten minutes even, 2nd 10 minutes the combination of simply being a better dog and having two pounds to boot was too much and the last five or six was simply when we could make a handle. I used a towel to clean my dog up and they used a shovel on theirs.

I went a long time and called this dog a 1XW. I considered it a schooling session for the dumbass owner of the other dog. Then some time later when we were hooking another match he went into all the excuses of why things turned out the way they did, other than he was just stupid. From there I tagged it as a win.

That helped me form my opinion, conditioned or not, on weight or not, I won't take a win away from one dog because the other dog owner is a dumb ass.

I fell like when you pull out of the drive way with your dog all of your shit best be in on point, anything less than that, and it is on you. I can't hold that against the other dog.

EWO

[Coach]

I consider your situation a legit win. Both conditioned dogs. Even though your dog put on 2lbs in a few days, his keep and it's affect did not evaporate in that time. 2 conditioned dogs.
I would count that as a win as well.

Neither of these dogs were OTC dogs. They were both conditioned.

I guess the back and forth here is you are classifying a type of contest as OTC and I've classifying the contestants as conditioned or OTC.

[brasso]

@EWO Ozzie was BRED! Any pics of him?

[EWO]

One of the things I have kicked myself for over the years is I did not take pictures.

He was a black male, 37 for the show. One continuous muscle from head to to toe.

Click on his sire's ped, Patrick's Kasai. A hair taller than his sire, slightly more more muscular and shiny black. Best I can do to re-create him.

EWO

[brasso]

I know that feeling, EWO. Not like back then we had cameras on our phones.

Kasai has the "look" I always liked best. I could spot them ugly Bolio dogs a mile away. Mostly what I see of it nowadays just doesn't look right to me.

[EWO]

Kasai stamped his dogs. They all were shaped the same, looked the same, barked the same....Maybe his best attribute he passed is not what most would say when they say "Bolio". Kasai put a ton of mouth in to every thing he bred. He had one male that I can remember that did not have exceptional mouth, and on that was so-so average. The rest exceptional.

The female could change the color but that was about all the input the females had. LOL

EWO