WHAT IS THE BEST WORMER

[BIGFLA73]

WE USE IVOMEC ,BUT I WAS WONDERING IF THERE WAS A MORE ALL INCLUSIVE WORMER ?

[R2L]

i read somewhere jack was working on a big article about worming, would like to read it too

me as well

[mert]

He covers them real well in the bible.

[Officially Retired]

Yes I do ... and when all else fails, a person can always refer to their book (or buy it :) )

That said, I am working on an even more complete piece on the matter, and sorry it isn't ready yet, but I've been real busy of late!

[BIGFLA73]

I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IS A GREAT WORMER AND ITS ALL NATURAL .....

[loot]

I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IS A GREAT WORMER AND ITS ALL NATURAL .....



I'm not sure if it's worth the price since you have to give everyday. Maybe ok for someone with only few dogs. I thought I edited already . I was thinking more of a mind set if it works. Every day seems to be a long time.

[BIGFLA73]

I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IS A GREAT WORMER AND ITS ALL NATURAL .....



I'm not sure if it's worth the price since you have to give everyday. Maybe ok for someone with only few dogs.$12 FOR A 20LB BAG AND YOU GIVE A PUP A 1/4 TEASPOON AND A ADULT DOG 1/2 TO 1 TEASPOON ... DO YOU KNOW HOW LONG THAT WILL LAST ..LOL... IM STILL USEING THE DUST THAT CAME OUT WHEN I OPENED IT .....

[BIGFLA73]

ITS CHEEP TO ME http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-e ... b--1019864 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-earth-reg-diatomaceous-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864)

[loot]

ITS CHEEP TO ME http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-e ... b--1019864 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-earth-reg-diatomaceous-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864)

which worms will it take care of? I'm asking because it will not open for me on TSC web page thanks

[loot]

ITS CHEEP TO ME http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-e ... b--1019864 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-earth-reg-diatomaceous-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864)

which worms will it take care of? I'm asking because it will not open for me on TSC web page thanks


i did some research an got the info. I think I'll give it a try.

[HOGBIZ]

I went to TS and bought 40lbs, this stuff works from what I can tell. My dogs have a new attitude on life. When I have some time to write I'll tell you how I've found is the easiest way to administer. Either way, I think it would be imposable to OD a dog on this stuff.

I say screw conventional wormers and poisoning my dogs to kill worms… this is the stuff here. Been talking to chicken, rabbit, dog and cowmen and they are all swearing by this stuff, it also works in the vegetable garden as well!




ITS CHEEP TO ME http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-e ... b--1019864 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/red-lake-earth-reg-diatomaceous-earth-with-calcium-bentonite-20-lb--1019864)

which worms will it take care of? I'm asking because it will not open for me on TSC web page thanks


i did some research an got the info. I think I'll give it a try.

[HOGBIZ]

Brother, I read my Bible and your script is complicated at best, even for an educated man such as myself, LOL. This stuff seems to be fool proof. From what my friend told me who gardens, it acts like glass shards, slicing up slugs, snails and in the case of dogs, worms that it comes in contact with. There is no resistance that can be built up as compared with conventional poisons.

If I have some time I’m gonna drink a weeks worth myself and report back. I have tasted it and it tastes like… dirt. I've been eating dirt for the past 40 years... I don't see where a little DE will hurt anything.


Yes I do ... and when all else fails, a person can always refer to their book (or buy it :) )

That said, I am working on an even more complete piece on the matter, and sorry it isn't ready yet, but I've been real busy of late!

[Officially Retired]

Brother, I read my Bible and your script is complicated at best, even for an educated man such as myself, LOL. This stuff seems to be fool proof. From what my friend told me who gardens, it acts like glass shards, slicing up slugs, snails and in the case of dogs, worms that it comes in contact with. There is no resistance that can be built up as compared with conventional poisons.
If I have some time I’m gonna drink a weeks worth myself and report back. I have tasted it and it tastes like… dirt. I've been eating dirt for the past 40 years... I don't see where a little DE will hurt anything.



I am not too sure what you found "complicated" about rotating one wormer one month, and another wormer another month, but to each his own. If my understanding of diatomaceous earth use is correct, you have to give it every day, right? Well, to me, it is a lot less complicated to give my medicine once a month, as opposed to giving your preference every day, but that's just me.

Regarding the issue of "chemicals," the reality is there is a HUGE safety margin with both pyrantel, as well as fenbendazole, it is only the ivermectin that is the most toxic of the drugs I recommend ... and the simple fact is even you users of diatomaceous earth still have to give ivermectin (or its equivalent), because DE does nothing for heartworm.

Thus, to my way of looking at things, you give yourself 29 days more work using DE, and yet you still have to give the most toxic wormer of all to your dogs in the form of ivermectin, so I am not really sure what is being accomplished :confused:

But, as with everything, to each his own.

Jack

[FatPimp]

I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IS A GREAT WORMER AND ITS ALL NATURAL .....

How often must you give this?

[BIGFLA73]

I HAVE COME TO FIND OUT THAT DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IS A GREAT WORMER AND ITS ALL NATURAL .....

How often must you give this? I'M GIVING IT EVERY DAY FOR A MONTH THEN ONE WEEK IN THE MONTH

[russian]

we use ivomec,strongi-t,and panacure

week one hlaf cc per 50 lbs(ivomec)
week 2 1 cc per 10 lbs od stronigit
and week 3 1 cc per 10 lbs panacure
week 4 nothing this is every month

not sayin its the best or maybe a better way to do it but im on 10 yrs strong and none have had worms at any vet visit we go to.

[HOGBIZ]

To me, work equates to dealing with a messy paste coming out of a tube that is clearly segmented into doses for equine as opposed to canine. Trying to get it stuff in their mouths, the warmer it gets the messier it is. Residual being left on my finger, having to wipe it on my pants and move on to the next dog and repeat over 20 times for 3 days then having to mark a date to do it all over again in 30 days. Not to mention having to procure about 2 to 3 tubes of each every month and going to the feed store on the weekend only to find they don’t have enough in stock, then having to go into town and try to find the wormer, wasting my time which to me is about $100 per hour during the week and $150 per hour on the weekend. ARRG!

Where as with the DE, measure their feed as I would do everyday anyways in a 4 cup measuring cup, sprinkling about a tablespoon on top out of a spray paint can top (Again the stuff is dirt so I don’t see how an OD can occur), shaking the feed around in the cup so it will cling, and feed it to the dogs as usual. It adds about 10 sec to each dog and if I happen to miss a day, big deal because I do it every day and if it does as it should, it would be impossible for any worm to build up in the dog as with a conventional wormer.

And if BIGFL is right, after the 1st month you can ease up on the dosing. Myself, I hunt every week, in the woods on feral hogs which carry more disease then any creature next to the armadillo, not to mention all the fleas and ticks we encounter on the animals we catch, so I will continue with daily dosing.

To each his own does in fact sum it up.




Brother, I read my Bible and your script is complicated at best, even for an educated man such as myself, LOL. This stuff seems to be fool proof. From what my friend told me who gardens, it acts like glass shards, slicing up slugs, snails and in the case of dogs, worms that it comes in contact with. There is no resistance that can be built up as compared with conventional poisons.
If I have some time I’m gonna drink a weeks worth myself and report back. I have tasted it and it tastes like… dirt. I've been eating dirt for the past 40 years... I don't see where a little DE will hurt anything.



I am not too sure what you found "complicated" about rotating one wormer one month, and another wormer another month, but to each his own. If my understanding of diatomaceous earth use is correct, you have to give it every day, right? Well, to me, it is a lot less complicated to give my medicine once a month, as opposed to giving your preference every day, but that's just me.

Regarding the issue of "chemicals," the reality is there is a HUGE safety margin with both pyrantel, as well as fenbendazole, it is only the ivermectin that is the most toxic of the drugs I recommend ... and the simple fact is even you users of diatomaceous earth still have to give ivermectin (or its equivalent), because DE does nothing for heartworm.

Thus, to my way of looking at things, you give yourself 29 days more work using DE, and yet you still have to give the most toxic wormer of all to your dogs in the form of ivermectin, so I am not really sure what is being accomplished :?

But, as with everything, to each his own.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

To me, work equates to dealing with a messy paste coming out of a tube that is clearly segmented into doses for equine as opposed to canine.

Well, then in point of fact, you're not following my book at all, you're following the bozos on PedsOnline who use Zimectrin Paste, etc., which "catch-all wormers" contain combinations of ingredients that are NOT properly-dosed for a dog, I agree. Which is why I do not use these products at all and have never recommended that anyone else do either.




Not to mention having to procure about 2 to 3 tubes of each every month and going to the feed store on the weekend only to find they don’t have enough in stock, then having to go into town and try to find the wormer, wasting my time which to me is about $100 per hour during the week and $150 per hour on the weekend. ARRG!

Well, here again, you are likewise not following my book at all ... since I recommend not going to a feed store for your products ... but instead I recommend ordering better, cheaper, specific products from vet catalogues directly ... who send these products to your door ... thereby saving yourself the time and expense, not to mention enabling you to control the dosages better.

Furthermore, if your time is so valuable, I don't see how you're "saving" any time by going to a feed store (ignoring my book) ... and then giving DE every single day for a month (which takes still more time) ... whereas doing it my way you only have to dose ONCE a month. So, really, you're not making any sense here at all. You're just falsely-claiming you followed my book (when you clearly did not), and you're falsely-claiming to save time (when clearly you are not) ... all so that you can 'avoid' giving your dogs dog a chemical ... which, here again, you are NOT.

Because this brings us to my other point (that you failed to address at all), namely that the ivermectin is THE harshest chemical of all ... and you still have to give that to your dogs, regardless. So I am not sure how are saving anything at all here ... neither time, nor effort, nor expense, nor avoiding the use of chemical wormers.

What you're doing is fooling yourself, nothing more.

Jack

[HOGBIZ]

Page 160 to 165, read it and calling to order things between the over 100 calls I get a day with people offering me work just doesn't happen. Then there is baseball practice, basketball practice birthday parties, and a host of other things in life you do not have to deal with as a single man who has no children Jack. And 5 pages to tell someone how to worm a dog is ridiculous. My opinion.

I could care less about “Saving Money” which is the main jest of your not going to the feed store, I make plenty of it, it is my Time that is valuable to me, and splashing a little dirt on the food I’m going to give my dogs every day that I can pick up from the same place I but my feed from makes the most sense to my brain Jack, maybe not yours because we’re all different.
No need to try to cut me down because I don’t follow your book verbatim, at least you got my money, isn’t that the whole reason, at least main reason, you created the book, to sell it?

Again and as with everything, to each his own, no hard feelings, no need for red ink because I’m going to do things the way I’ve always done them, MY WAY. I never claimed to have “Followed” your book, I just bought it and read it, as most who have it have done.

Cheers!
David B.



To me, work equates to dealing with a messy paste coming out of a tube that is clearly segmented into doses for equine as opposed to canine.

Well, then in point of fact, you're not following my book at all, you're following the bozos on PedsOnline who use Zimectrin Paste, etc., which "catch-all wormers" contain combinations of ingredients that are NOT properly-dosed for a dog, I agree. Which is why I do not use these products at all and have never recommended that anyone else do either.




Not to mention having to procure about 2 to 3 tubes of each every month and going to the feed store on the weekend only to find they don’t have enough in stock, then having to go into town and try to find the wormer, wasting my time which to me is about $100 per hour during the week and $150 per hour on the weekend. ARRG!

Well, here again, you are likewise not following my book at all ... since I recommend not going to a feed store for your products ... but instead I recommend ordering better, cheaper, specific products from vet catalogues directly ... who send these products to your door ... thereby saving yourself the time and expense, not to mention enabling you to control the dosages better.

Furthermore, if your time is so valuable, I don't see how you're "saving" any time by going to a feed store (ignoring my book) ... and then giving DE every single day for a month (which takes still more time) ... whereas doing it my way you only have to dose ONCE a month. So, really, you're not making any sense here at all. You're just falsely-claiming you followed my book (when you clearly did not), and you're falsely-claiming to save time (when clearly you are not) ... all so that you can 'avoid' giving your dogs dog a chemical ... which, here again, you are NOT.

Because this brings us to my other point (that you failed to address at all), namely that the ivermectin is THE harshest chemical of all ... and you still have to give that to your dogs, regardless. So I am not sure how are saving anything at all here ... neither time, nor effort, nor expense, nor avoiding the use of chemical wormers.

What you're doing is fooling yourself, nothing more.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Page 160 to 165, read it and calling to order things between the over 100 calls I get a day with people offering me work just doesn't happen. Then there is baseball practice, basketball practice birthday parties, and a host of other things in life you do not have to deal with as a single man who has no children Jack. And 5 pages to tell someone how to worm a dog is ridiculous. My opinion.
I could care less about “Saving Money” which is the main jest of your not going to the feed store, I make plenty of it, it is my Time that is valuable to me, and splashing a little dirt on the food I’m going to give my dogs every day that I can pick up from the same place I but my feed from makes the most sense to my brain Jack, maybe not yours because we’re all different.
No need to try to cut me down because I don’t follow your book verbatim, at least you got my money, isn’t that the whole reason, at least main reason, you created the book, to sell it?
Again and as with everything, to each his own, no hard feelings, no need for red ink because I’m going to do things the way I’ve always done them, MY WAY. I never claimed to have “Followed” your book, I just bought it and read it, as most who have it have done.
Cheers!
David B.


David,

It sounds like you're getting angry with me over nothing but your own embarrassment over being absolutely incorrect in everything you've said, nor even truthful for that matter. And now you're making up excuses to cover-up your embarrassment, and trying to downgrade my motives and my book as well.

So let us take a look at one of your excuses/lies under the old microscope: If having baseball games and making a phone call is "too hard" for you to do, just to get a simple wormer, then how do you ever accomplish ordering any DE? You see what I mean? Again, you're not making any sense, and you're just offering empty excuses/downright lies as a response. The simple, unavoidable fact is ... if you have the time to order DE, and give it to your dogs every single day, then it makes no rational sense to say you don't have the time to order wormer and give it once a month. So you're simply making up pure BS just to give "a response" here. Therefore, in the end, sometimes it is just better to admit you have no idea what you're talking about ... than it is to continue lying and making up excuses to carry a dead and defeated point.

Now then, regarding how "ridiculous" it is to write 5 pages about a wormer, it is even more ridiculous to LIE and imply that you understood and followed the instructions, when it is clear as day you did not. The simple fact is, 5 pages devoted to wormers is actually NOT ENOUGH (the Merck Veterinary Manual actually has 13 small-type pages devoted to wormers, and it still is only scratching the surface). Clearly my point is made here by the very fact 5 pages wasn't enough to educate you on the subject, if you're using Zimectrin paste ;)

For simple-minded people, maybe reading 5 pages seems like a lot, but for people who actually want to learn the principles behind it all, so they can really understand what they're doing ... and avoid making the utter blunders that "most people" typically make ... then more than 5 pages are required, which is why I am working on a huge article addressing the matter. By your disposition and attitude, I can tell you won't bother to read it, but I promise you that there are those dogmen who will read it--and appreciate it also.

In the end, you can do what you want to do David, I am well aware of that, but when you come to my board and claim that you followed my advice ... when clearly this is a lie ... I will publicly take you to task on such BS, which is only fair. Next time, it might be advisable just to say, "This is what I do," and leave the utterly false implications and statements out of it.

Jack

[HOGBIZ]

With all due respect to you Sir, I bought the DE at Tractor Supply, OTC, the same place I buy feed for my dogs and hogs.

Warning received and noted.

[Officially Retired]

With all due respect to you Sir, I bought the DE at Tractor Supply, OTC, the same place I buy feed for my dogs and hogs.


Okay, so then if you have time to go to physically go the feed store (not to mention post 3x here today), then the idea that you "don't have time" to make a simple phone call to have wormer shipped to you simply doesn't add-up.

Neither does the idea that you are "too pressed for time" to administer standard wormer once a month; yet do have the time to administer DE every day.

And, finally, because you still have to use ivermectin for heartworm which (along with its equivalents) are the most toxic wormers there are, then you really aren't "avoiding toxic chemicals" either.

What I am trying to get at here, as tactfully as I can put it, is the whole idea of "avoiding chemical use" by using DE doesn't actually happen. And what I also needed to clarify here, in no uncertain terms, is that you never did actually follow my worming protocol at all, so you had no right to mention it here in this post. Factually-speaking, my worming protocol is quicker, it is as/more effective as DE, it is by far less time-consuming, and it is also cheaper. There is no way around these facts.

However, we both agree that you can use what you want, and I can use what I want, which is as it should be.





Warning received and noted.

Good. There is no need to have a factual debate resort to nastiness or lies. In civil debate and dialogue, when the facts don't add-up, the proper response is to concede the point (or at least admit there are no other facts known), it is not the time to digress to insults and false statements.

Just sticking to the facts, without saying anything false or deliberately loaded, is invariably the best way to keep a conversation decent.

Jack

[BIGFLA73]

HOW MUCH IS YOUR WORMER

[Officially Retired]

HOW MUCH IS YOUR WORMER

I don't have a wormer that I produce, what I do is have a worming protocol that I recommend. For example, giving a dose of this wormer (http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Pyrantel_Pamoate_32_oz-P44964.aspx) once a month only costs eleven cents.

To figure out the cost, this wormer is $25.95 for 32 oz., and since there are 30 ml per ounce, this means the above product contains 960 ml of drug for $25.95 (or $0.027/ml).

Since it only take 4ml to treat a 40-lb dog, that means you're only spending $0.108 (just under eleven cents) to treat each dog.

Jack

[BulldogConnection]

I use DE and believe It is one of the easiest most cost effective routes available. I do not know the exact cost per dose but a 20lb bag costs me under $20. With the DE there's no need to purchase multiple multiple wormers or rotate anything simply add a small tblspn to the feed and it's done. If anyone's worried about it taking too much time 1) it doesn't increase feed prep time much at all and 2) when it comes to the health of your animal that shouldn't be a concern anyway.

Now I couple this with Ivermectin and give it every 3 months.

[Officially Retired]

I use DE and believe It is one of the easiest most cost effective routes available. I do not know the exact cost per dose but a 20lb bag costs me under $20. With the DE there's no need to purchase multiple multiple wormers or rotate anything simply add a small tblspn to the feed and it's done. If anyone's worried about it taking too much time 1) it doesn't increase feed prep time much at all and 2) when it comes to the health of your animal that shouldn't be a concern anyway.
Now I couple this with Ivermectin and give it every 3 months.


That is a good rebuttal BC, and it makes perfect sense, but allow me to offer my own:

The trouble for me regarding the DE issue is this: 1) I prepare my dog's food by hand in the kitchen, and I don't need a 20-lb bag of "earth" occupying space there, and 2) when it comes to the health of my animals, 4 ml of common pyrantel wormer 1x a month does not compromise it in any way whatsoever.

There is simply ZERO 'health benefit' to using DE on a daily basis, because using standard wormers on the dogs does not harm them one bit ... thus it simply amounts to TIME and SPACE. Me personally, while tossing an extra tBsp/tsp of the stuff onto the feed every day might not be that big of a deal, I don't want a 20-lb bag of "earth" in my kitchen. Nor do I want to drag it back and forth from the shop to the kitchen. If I were feeding kibble and operating out of my workshop, this might make sense, but I hand-prepare my dog's food in our kitchen (which is A LOT healthier for the dogs than feeding kibble), and do not have the space for a 20-lb sack of dirt. In the end, just taking a bottle of wormer and a syringe around the yard once-a-month is FAR more convenient for me and it is absolutely safe to do.


Safety Facts

The accepted dosage of pyrantel for dogs is 5mg/lb, 1-2x/month, which is trivial. In experiments using up to 100mg/lb (TWENTY TIMES THE NEEDED DOSE), and used daily (not monthly), not a single problem could be attributed to pyrantel, even when given for periods of 19, 30, and 90 days straight (let alone once a month). Clinical studies conducted in a wide variety of geographic locations, using more than 40 different breeds of dog, showed ZERO drug-induced toxic effects. Included in these studies were nursing pups, weaned pups, adults, pregnant bitches, and males at stud.

So where is the "danger" here? There is none! As a matter of fact, speaking of which is safer than which, try giving your dogs 20 tBsp of DE, every day for 90 days, and I'll bet they can't take it ... but they could with pyrantel.

Therefore, the idea that you're "protecting your dog from harm" using DE is an illusion. What you're doing is giving yourself 30 days of worming work a month, rather than just one.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

In doing some research, the question actually boils down to does diatomaceous earth even work on internal roundworms?


Pest control
Diatomite is used as an insecticide, due to its physico-sorptive properties. The fine powder absorbs lipids from the waxy outer layer of insects' exoskeletons, causing them to dehydrate.[9] Arthropods die as a result of the water pressure deficiency, based on Fick's law of diffusion. This also works against gastropods and is commonly employed in gardening to defeat slugs. However, since slugs inhabit humid environments, efficacy is very low. It is sometimes mixed with an attractant or other additives to increase its effectiveness. Medical-grade diatomite is sometimes used to de-worm both animals and humans, with questionable efficacy.[10][11] It is most commonly used in lieu of boric acid, and can be used to help control and eventually eliminate cockroach and flea infestations. This material has wide application for insect control in grain storage.[12] It has also been used to control bedbug infestations, but this method may take weeks to work.[13]
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth)

Alternative Dewormers
Currently, there is a lot of interest in using "natural" products as an alternative to chemical control of parasites. Such products include herbal dewormers and diatomaceous earth. Unfortunately, there is no research to indicate that any of these products have a substantial effect on internal parasites in sheep, only "testimonials." However, this is an area of increasing research interest and hopefully recommendations will be forthcoming in the years ahead.
Sheep 101 (http://www.sheep101.info/201/parasite.html)

Based on the reading I have done, DE's real effectiveness is in DRY conditions where it causes the dehydration of insects/arthropods, by piercing their exoskeletons, but in moist environments and as a supposed remedy for intestinal roundworm, hookworm, whipworm, etc., its value seems to be extremely limited, if it has any value at all. In researching this compound for over two hours, there seem to be no actual studies done to show this "remedy" even works at all for intestinal worms, let alone with 100% effectiveness. At this point, it seems to me the only thing you find in support of DE are the "empty testimonials" of over-zealous laymen, but no actual confirmed studies and documentation from credible sources.

I don't have any more time to devote to this issue right now, but if anyone can show me some actual documented reports, I would be happy to view them.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I finally found a published scientific study on Diatomaceous Earth, and it appears DE has no effect on worms at all (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=714).

However, it appears to have a noticeable affect as a nutrition supplement, and consequently is more properly discussed in the Nutrition Section (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=11).

[BIGFLA73]

http://purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-study.php
http://www.ehow.com/about_6511644_diato ... evels.html (http://www.ehow.com/about_6511644_diatomaceous-earth-cholesterol-levels.html)
http://www.phdproducts.com/main/phdpage.asp?page=141
I think it boils down to what you like and are will to do .... there are good wormers everwhere ,so it really choice.

[Officially Retired]

http://purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-study.php
http://www.ehow.com/about_6511644_diato ... evels.html (http://www.ehow.com/about_6511644_diatomaceous-earth-cholesterol-levels.html)
http://www.phdproducts.com/main/phdpage.asp?page=141
I think it boils down to what you like and are will to do .... there are good wormers everwhere ,so it really choice.


It is clear you don't know the difference between an actual scientific study and a "published opinion."

What is interesting also is that, if you actually read your own links critically, even that "pro DE website" basically never directly states that DE kills intestinal worms. What they do is beat around the bush alot. Their reports on chickens (http://purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-for-chickens.php) didn't breathe a word about "worm control," they just confirmed the report I already posted: namely that chickens fed DE were larger and their eggs were healthier, but it didn't say a single thing about worms, precisely because it doesn't work for worms. So we're all in agreement that DE is a fine food supplement; however what it has NOT been proven to do is kill intestinal worms. Worming your dogs is not a matter of "belief" (or what you "like"); effective worming is a matter of what really does work and avoiding what really does not work.

By the same token, the writers cleverly switched the topic on a Texas A&M Study (http://purepermaguard.com/diatomaceous-earth-study.php) on intestinal parasites, they switched the topic from worms (because DE didn't work) to "healthier occupants," which it has been proven that DE does improve health and reproductive vitality. (I also noticed how neither article did provide the reference link to the actual study, so you could read them for yourself, they just "interpreted it" for you ... and cleverly switched the topic from worming to mere "health and size," without getting into the specifics.

In the end, there still remains ZERO cited scientific evidence that DE really does work for intestinal worms ... yet there does seem to be ample evidence that it is a great supplement for health in other ways.

Cheers,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Regarding Goats (http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Publications/part5.htm)
Diatomaceous Earth
"Diatomaceous earth is fossilized unicellular marine or fresh water algae called diatoms. It is used as a food ingredient (read the labels on processed foods) and in swimming pool filters. There are cautions about using the swimming pool grade for feeding animals in that it can be contaminated with heavy metals whereas the food grade must be proven to have non toxic levels of heavy metals. Diatomaceous earth has been used for many years for control of various pests from grain weevils to houseflies. Goat producers that use it for deworming control often mix it with the mineral supplement or in the feed. Most claims are that it extends the time between dewormings although some claim that it kills worms in goats. There have been 4 or 5 scientific studies and the data consistently show that diatomaceous earth does not kill worms in goats although one study did show that at a very high level (5% of the diet), it had a slight effect. There is speculation that it may help fecal pellets to dry out faster which could reduce the success of eggs developing into infective L3 larvae. Research conducted on this aspect has not been conclusive. It is very difficult to study the claim that diatomaceous earth increases the time between dewormings."

I want to find the links to these studies!

[BIGFLA73]

LIKE I SAID ITS A CHOICE...AND AFTER USEING IT FOR 3 WEEKS AND TAKING 6 DOGS(THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT I TOOK) TO THE VET FOR FECAL EXAMS I WILL KEEP USEING IT ;) .... AND AFTER SEEING THE LACK OF "SCIENTIFIC" RESEARCH ON THE EFFECTS OF DE AS A WORMER IN A "DOG" I WILL JUST TAKE THE TESTIMONIALS OF THE VETS AND OTHERS INCLUDING MYSELF AS "MY" PROOF. AND THANKS FOR MAKING ME READ UP ON IT BECAUSE IT HAS MANY MORE BENEFICIAL EFFECTS FOR MY ANIMALS AND YARD .......

[Officially Retired]

LOL, I do agree on the "many more good effects" part, which is why I am going to use it too ... I just won't be using it for worms as there has been no published documentation proving it works in that capacity :mrgreen:

But there is plenty of research to support its use as a food supplement.

Jack

[BIGFLA73]

A little better info. http://www.thebestcontrol.com/DE/Chapter40.pdf

[Officially Retired]

That is not a valid scientific study, it is a website for a book and to sell products. Posting links to mere commercial websites is not scientific proof.

The scientific study the author referred to was not identified completely, nor even by name. The only actual governmental letter simply indicated that DE does not harm the internal organs of the animals, but mentioned nothing of any health benefits at all, let alone confirmed that DE was even wormer at all.

The difference between what you're posing and what I am posing is I have posted actual studies by accredited universities directly stating that their actual research showed DE does not kill worms.
You keep posting links to commercial enterprises "claiming" that alleged studies "showed" DE work, but no links to the actual studies themselves have yet been provided, thus making them empty claims.

You need to recognize the difference between the actual published scientific study itself ... and some guy trying to sell a book and a products "saying" he read one.

Jack

[BIGFLA73]

Like I said before this is "better info" I'm not trying to prove anything nor did I state that this is a study ... I know what I have experienced and I am cool with that ;)

[Officially Retired]

Unfortunately, it really is not any "better" ... it is exactly the same thing: a claim from a commercial website, a bunch of "testimonials," yet with zero actual scientific reference documents to back it up.

[Officially Retired]

Actual study from the Cambridge Journal (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6950272):

"On day 0, the average count for all calves was over 70 eggs per g faeces (epg) for trichostrongyle type eggs; counts for Nematodirus sp., Strongyloides sp., Trichuris sp. and Capillaria sp. were negligible. CTRL and DE steers had higher parasite levels than CONV steers during the 1st (P < 0·01) and 2nd months (P < 0·05) after treatment."

CTRL = No wormer at all
DE = Cows treated with DE
CONV = Standard Wormer (Albendazole)


Jack

[Marooda]

This is not blowing sushine in no one ass, but the PBB is the shit bottom line, as a student of this hobby I am more intelligent in caring and breeding my animals. Even if I do not follow everything 100%, the book has given me a path to walk on were I can modify to my yard while still following the guidelines. Prior to the book I was getting ripped off by vets, and petstores......I didn't know that feedstores or Tractor Supply existed prior to this book, I didn't know that the same shit you give to livestock stock you can give to dogs, hell I didn't know that a form of cancer can be rectified buy two simple tools DID YOU!? I thought that kibble was the way to go and big amounts of poop was a good sign ........So anyone who has purchased the book, more than likely, didn't know that majority of what vets do, can be done by you (with a little common sense of course) at home, or a somewhat experienced person purchased this book to get further ahead or to get different or better ideas to care for their animals.

Are their other ways to do something, of coure no one should be all out clueless, but I almost 100% Louisiana Guarantee that you will refer back to your Little Black Book!

like I said, I am not blowing sunshine in no one ass, but I am a better person/handler because of this book and I can't believe someone will give up their secrets like this. And not to mention this Board that provides a plethora of information on caring for your dogs. And lastly if you feel that your ideas are better, write your own book! :lol:

Respectfully,
Marooda

[BIGFLA73]

This is not blowing sushine in no one ass, but the PBB is the shit bottom line, as a student of this hobby I am more intelligent in caring and breeding my animals. Even if I do not follow everything 100%, the book has given me a path to walk on were I can modify to my yard while still following the guidelines. Prior to the book I was getting ripped off by vets, and petstores......I didn't know that feedstores or Tractor Supply existed prior to this book, I didn't know that the same shit you give to livestock stock you can give to dogs, hell I didn't know that a form of cancer can be rectified buy two simple tools DID YOU!? I thought that kibble was the way to go and big amounts of poop was a good sign ........So anyone who has purchased the book, more than likely, didn't know that majority of what vets do, can be done by you (with a little common sense of course) at home, or a somewhat experienced person purchased this book to get further ahead or to get different or better ideas to care for their animals.

Are their other ways to do something, of coure no one should be all out clueless, but I almost 100% Louisiana Guarantee that you will refer back to your Little Black Book!

like I said, I am not blowing sunshine in no one ass, but I am a better person/handler because of this book and I can't believe someone will give up their secrets like this. And not to mention this Board that provides a plethora of information on caring for your dogs. And lastly if you feel that your ideas are better, write your own book! :lol:

Respectfully,
Marooda
WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING "JACK" IS NOT THE END ALL ....A INTELLIGENT PERSON STRIVES TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ALL SUBJECTS NOT JUST EXCEPT WHAT SOMEONE SAYS .... OH P.S. JACK IS GOING TO USE IT NOW (NOT FOR WORMER BUT USE IT NONE THE LESS) ..I THINK BY THE DEBATES ON THIS AND OTHER BOARDS ABOUT DE HE MYSELF AND OTHERS HAVE FOUND THE THE PRODUCT HAS HELP USES (OUTSIDE IF A WORMER) .....

[Officially Retired]

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING "JACK" IS NOT THE END ALL ....A INTELLIGENT PERSON STRIVES TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ALL SUBJECTS NOT JUST EXCEPT WHAT SOMEONE SAYS .... OH P.S. JACK IS GOING TO USE IT NOW (NOT FOR WORMER BUT USE IT NONE THE LESS) ..I THINK BY THE DEBATES ON THIS AND OTHER BOARDS ABOUT DE HE MYSELF AND OTHERS HAVE FOUND THE THE PRODUCT HAS HELP USES (OUTSIDE IF A WORMER) .....


I certainly agree I am not the "end all," but I think the reason most people buy my book and trust what I say is that, unlike so many who post their claims online, I really do try to back-up my claims with actual facts. The products I sell, for example, are backed by published, scientific research which shows the effectiveness of sulfur (for example) on skin problems, turpentine (as another example) as an antiseptic, etc.

Therefore, before I go to singing the praises of DE, I am not going to do so because I read a post ... nor am I even going to do so because my dogs "look good" while using it ... I am going to read the published research (not quack websites) and make sure I am on firm, factual ground before I go to making bold claims. That said, here are some more actual, scientific findings which shows that DE does not eradicate intestinal parasites:

"3.1. Fecal egg count in goats following treatment
Figure 1 shows the effect of DE on the number of eggs per gram (EPG) of feces in goats. Haemonchus contortus, Eimeria, and Trichostrongylus spp. were the predominant species of nematodes present throughout the trial. There were highly significant differences among treatment groups (P < 0.0001). Variations in fecal egg counts for weekly measurements also proved to be highly significant (P < 0.0001). Group 2 showed the lowest mean fecal egg count increase while Group 3 showed the highest after the administration of DE. The results of this study coincide with previous experiments involving DE which confirmed no significant reductions of fecal egg counts in sheep [8]. Despite the promoted useof DE as an effective anthelmintic [6,8], the evidence presented in this study does not support DE as an effective alternative de-worming drench for goats."
My Source Material (http://www.science.org.ge/3-1/Bernard.pdf)
Diatomaceous Earth simply is NOT a first-line-defense wormer. It simply is not. There is no (ZERO) scientifically-published documentation that can support any belief system to the contrary. At best, there have been scientific studies showing "some" lowering of the worm burden, but no published study has shown DE to be more effective than conventional wormers. None. Zero.

However, I do concur that there does appear to be actual, measurable scientific evidence that supports the use of DE as a food supplement, which aids in both appetite, body mass, and fitness of offspring. However, a lot of these kinds of statements have been with regard to chickens. With regard to mammals, a lot of the findings have been divided, with some showing an increase of fitness while other studies showing that DE does not have this same effect in goats or cows. I still am working on finding any scientific documentation as it pertains to dogs.

Jack

[BIGFLA73]

MY COMMENT WAS DIRECTED AT THIS STATMENT
And lastly if you feel that your ideas are better, write your own book! :lol:

Respectfully,
Marooda
I AM HERE FOR KNOWLEDGE AND I HAVE ASK FOR YOUR INSIGHT(JACK) SO IT WAS NOT DIRECTING IT AT YOU ,BUT I STILL STAND BY WHAT I SAID ......SOMETIME PEOPLE JUST NEED TO SIT BACK AND BE QUITE ... THE TREAD IS ABOUT WORMER. I DIDNT NEED THE SAMRT ASS REMARK .......

[Officially Retired]

I AM HERE FOR KNOWLEDGE AND I HAVE ASK FOR YOUR INSIGHT(JACK) SO IT WAS NOT DIRECTING IT AT YOU ,BUT I STILL STAND BY WHAT I SAID ......SOMETIME PEOPLE JUST NEED TO SIT BACK AND BE QUITE ... THE TREAD IS ABOUT WORMER. I DIDNT NEED THE SAMRT ASS REMARK .......


I agree with you, no need for wise-cracks. I apologize for the remark, though I appreciate his passion for what he learned in a book. The truth is, book-writers can be wrong too and/or their material can become out-dated.

Honestly, BigFL I am not too proud to admit when I don't know something, and if I don't I will try to look-up the facts so that I try to have a leg to stand on when I speak about a subject. I simply don't know the facts about many things in life ... and I am still learning here as I go along ... so I am here to gain knowledge also. We never stop learning!

If, through my research, I would have learned that DE is positively a better wormer than conventional means, then I would be in the process of re-writing the worming section of my book. Believe that! Instead, what I have learned here is that DE *is* a beneficial product, and without your guys' input I would never have researched it this hard. In doing so, I myself have become more educated on the subject, and I hope so too have others. What is good to do is try to be rational and civil, and I thank you very much for having done so here. We may not agree on everything, but I hope we can both always remain courteous and realize we have BOTH learned some new things by way of this debate.

And, actually, that is the purpose of intelligent debate: for both parties to discuss their differences, in order to discover the truth, so that BOTH parties come away the better-off for it. So, in the end, I may be re-writing my book after all, but it won't be in the worming section, it will be in the nutrition section.

Cheers,

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

"A INTELLIGENT PERSON STRIVES TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ALL SUBJECTS NOT JUST EXCEPT WHAT SOMEONE SAYS"

"SOMEONE" applies to yourself as well. Not merely "other people".

Don't merely accept what YOU say either. Be open minded and accept TRUTH/FACTS! You'll be better off for it.

I won't use DE. Nothing positive for worming and no scientific proof of any kind supporting health benefits for dogs.

I'm glad you guys did all this. One less thing for me!