Young brood female

[dance all night rece]

Just for descussion purposes if u have a female thats only used for breeding , how yound is too young to bred?

[OIK]

under 2 years old is too young to me, of course that's just my personal preference.

[Officially Retired]

Factually-speaking, "too young to breed" can only mean one thing: she hasn't matured enough to come into her first heat yet.

The rest is just opinion and personal preference.

Jack

PS: I have bred many outstanding bulldogs (Champions, producers of Champions, etc.) using first-heat bitches. Gr CH Zukill (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=7554) came out of Zsa Zsa's first heat at 11 months. I believe Waccamaw's Ch Big John (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=15905) came out of Sabre's first heat as well. Eli Jr. (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=23)/Bullyson (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=382123) came out of a 10-month old Spook. Ch Mr. Serious ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=77496) came out of LuLu's first heat. Gr Ch Awesome Beast ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=303923) came out of a first-heat gyp bred by a woman who never rolled a dog before.

Conclusion: Breeding young bitches can produce every bit as good, or better, dogs as breeding "hard-checked" or even Champion-level bitches ... IF you have a truly well-bred bitch ... and IF you know enough about the dogs in the genetic background to breed them correctly. If you don't, then you shouldn't breed any gyp at all until you know enough about what's behind your gyp. (PS: Best practice, though, is to evaluate your bitches before you breed them, just to see if they have the traits you desire. You can only take shortcuts for so long before they'll catch up to you!)

[STONEWALL]

Biologically speaking they are old enough when they come into heat. But they are too young to test at that point.

Don't wait to long. Test them as soon as they are ready.

It has been my experience with breeding animals of different breeds including APBTs that animals generally produce their best offspring at a younger age. Of course there are always exceptions the rules.

[skipper]

A dog will produce what it's gonna produce no matter their age or accomplishments. I have a small yard with very limited space. Therefore I like to fully check my dogs before i consider breeding them.

[Officially Retired]

Biologically speaking they are old enough when they come into heat. But they are too young to test at that point.
Don't wait to long. Test them as soon as they are ready.
It has been my experience with breeding animals of different breeds including APBTs that animals generally produce their best offspring at a younger age. Of course there are always exceptions the rules.

This would be a whole interesting topic unto itself, whether there is any truth to the matter of bitches producing their best offspring when young.

I know for a fact that Silverback is the most talented son ever out of Missy ... and she gave him to me when she was 10 years old ... but whether he was the "exception" to the rule or not (or whether the "rule" is not factually-sound) I just don't know.

Jack

[Nash]

Interesting topic, and interesting statement by Stonewall.

I will try and let you all know the thoughts in general over here, the KC has certain rules to get a registered pedigree to a dog. The organisations name is FCI. Under them i believe each country is entitled to make rules which fall under theirs. If you would be so kind to address the next points.

1. Here we always think that a bitch is not mature enough until a year or two. Altough it is known that the younger the animal is the better she'll probably recover from the wear of giving birth and taking care of a litter, the general thought is based on the dam being able to support the litter as well as being mentally full grown. Or grown enough to evaluate. This said, it's like here we judge a dog on the behaviour and soundness around a year or two. It says in the rules no younger than 16 months to get a registered pedigree.

2. No older than 8 years old to do a litter with registry. Meaning the day the gyp turns 8 it is not allowed to breed her to get the litter registered.

3. No first breeding after the bitch turned 6...?

I now learn/read a whole lot on bitches being bred earlier than 2 yo. and after the age of 8. To me it makes no sense not breeding a bitch you can get a good litter from after she turned 8. Except for if she already got bred to time and time again. What is the max number of times to breed a bitch ?

Sorry if i went off topic a bit.

[R2L]

I don't see why dogs are labeled "brood female" when they aren't even matured enough to show what they got. Is it because all that's cared about is breeding the pedigree or do i have a wrong interpretation of the word "brood female"?

[apeman]

Bump up for 2020...

[CLUTCH]

Great topic...:-bd It all depends on the female. I typically like to wait three heat cycles before breeding any bitch. Only because some bitches might only have two cycles in the span of eighteen month's. This also allow's me time to figure out what trait's she brings to the table. JMO8)

[Frank43]

Factually-speaking, "too young to breed" can only mean one thing: she hasn't matured enough to come into her first heat yet.

The rest is just opinion and personal preference.

Jack

PS: I have bred many outstanding bulldogs (Champions, producers of Champions, etc.) using first-heat bitches. Gr CH Zukill (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=7554) came out of Zsa Zsa's first heat at 11 months. I believe Waccamaw's Ch Big John (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=15905) came out of Sabre's first heat as well. Eli Jr. (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=23)/Bullyson (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=382123) came out of a 10-month old Spook. Ch Mr. Serious ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=77496) came out of LuLu's first heat. Gr Ch Awesome Beast ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=303923) came out of a first-heat gyp bred by a woman who never rolled a dog before.

Conclusion: Breeding young bitches can produce every bit as good, or better, dogs as breeding "hard-checked" or even Champion-level bitches ... IF you have a truly well-bred bitch ... and IF you know enough about the dogs in the genetic background to breed them correctly. If you don't, then you shouldn't breed any gyp at all until you know enough about what's behind your gyp. (PS: Best practice, though, is to evaluate your bitches before you breed them, just to see if they have the traits you desire. You can only take shortcuts for so long before they'll catch up to you!)

Did anyone know the rationale of these breedings. Were they bred early because they were all that was available and were the best bred. Were they the stand out female in a early litter. I just wonder. Sometimes I feel if you are lucky enough to get a well bred female from a good kennel you breed it. It’s not like you have a deep roster to work with. I’m in a position like this. A good breeder set me up with a breeding pair. The litter so far has been really good. Out of the three females there were two I liked. One a mirror image of the father one looked like a blend of the two. They are still you. The one that looked like a blend clicked on and is a little monster. My gut says go with her. I get to work with them a lot I see her.

Did the breeding that made big john ever get repeated? I wonder how many times they do. Is it human nature to try to find a better combination.

[EWO]

One of the stranger things to me is why repeat breedings seldom duplicate themselves.

We never bred a lot of dogs but when did this one:

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=46881

The entire litter was game, and all were show quality with the exception of Doorstop. He was maybe the best from the litter but he knocked out his teeth.

With such a good litter we repeated it. One good dog out of seven and a few curs and a couple three game plugs.

Even though we got one show dog and a couple three game dogs from a litter of 7 I was disappointed. 7 show dogs to 1 show dog was a let down.

S

[CYJ]

Ditto Stonewall you may be right. I was told that the more successful Game Cock breeders will not breed old Cocks or old hens. Believing that within a certain age, the Cock's sperm or Hen's eggs are not as virulent. Producing weaker type birds.

Whether true or false could apply to our dog's as well. I do not know how some of the last litters bred off Red Boy turned out. Red Boy lived to be around fourteen years old if I remember correctly. EWO may know. Cheers

[EWO]

No real idea. I have known several guys in the birds that refused to use and did not believe in incubators. They said it ended up with a weaker bird.

I think, for no more than I know, the bird game evolves faster than the dogs. They will breed or get roosters off what is winning now. If they are breeding something that is linked to long ago, it has a direct link and a continual string of winners from yesteryear til today.

Dog people will use a set of papers to chase dead dogs and make futile attempts to re-create a dog from 30 years ago. Chickens not so much.

From that aspect I would say the chickens are bred earlier.

Secondly no one is doing the hens so they serve no other purpose but to breed. So that makes the younger ones more appealing.

That is about the jist of what I know.
'
'EWO

[Frank43]

To me with dogs we know how the older ones produced. I may do the nostalgia thing a little. Plus dogs change a lot with age. Do you really want to breed a female or male really early and have a yard based on them and they stop. Patrick said he valued ability in the female and male equally. Cold females may be more valuable in lines where females are known for eating their young.

[CYJ]

Frank43, the good ones are just where you find them. AS EWO said about making a same breeding of proven worth dogs. Yet that next litter with the same Stud x Dam end up a over all flop.

I am not advocating to breed quiting dogs or cold dogs. Up to the individual,it's their kennel and their money. If a litter of dogs show good and one is a cold dog. Maybe put the dog aside for awhile longer. Check it out later, particularly if a female. See if the bitch can throw some good dogs. An example would be the full sister to Patrick's Tombstone. Another would be V. Jackson's Hank. If V.J. had shot Hank at two years old. Would be no Jocko/Red Boy dogs of today. It takes some experience to tell the difference in a cold dog and a rank cur. Some still will use that as a excuse to keep and breed a rank well bred cur. A lot of our pedigrees will have some.


Jones of Rebel Kennels did just that and won some serious show matches. I am sure he did not continue down that format. Some of those dogs he used from J. Crenshaw were still one generation from some proven dogs.

Do not fool yourself that all of Patrick's dogs were deep game. Just because his name was on the pedigree. Nor that all his dogs were bred like he said. Back when I was in the game he was well known for stealing good dogs and changing papers etc. He was smart enough to steal good tested and bred dogs. LOL Just a matter of days before Patrick left the state of Oregon. Him and some side kicks of his, visited Mr. Orbie Coplin, who was now up in age.

Brought some dogs to roll and test. Mr. Coplin got the best of Patrick and stopped at least one of Patrick's pride and joy. Mr Coplin made the mistake of showing them his dog yard and where the dogs were located. By the next evening three of his best dogs, two that showed really good in the rolls. Were gone and never seen or heard of again.

There is no exact science or monopoly on the game dog. Being a higher genetic form of animal is always hard to tell how the results will play out. Knowing what I know today and was still in the game. Would rather be a sought after conditioner than a breeder.

To spend countless days/hours feeding a large yard of dogs. Takes a lot of money and over time keeps you from your family. Can suck the life out of you. LOL Cheers

[EWO]

Well said.

I came along with a guy who culled hard. he kept 8-10-12 dogs that were open 24/7/365. To get there a lot of dogs were only a notch off, or needed a little more time, or was a really good dog themselves, but ran into one better. He looks back now and says, "What if?" because he put some dogs down that could have very well changed the game. But we will never know.

The best all around dog I was ever around was well over two before he got the picture. He had litter mates that thought they were grown at 10-11-12 months. Fortunately there was some patience involved. Ch. Charlie 4XW may have very well never been. His 2XW sister either.

The owner of Ch. Caballo picked him up in every roll as soon as he got in the least bit of trouble. Most would think Caballo was not getting schooled. For whatever reason, he learned to get in, destroy and get out before someone stopped his fun. It was said Caballo so smart that if he could count money and drive, he would have went out solo.

A lot say Mountain Man's Bandit quit. I know two older fellows who saw him way back when and they would damn near fist fight over what they both saw. He was bred to get to Two Eyes, who was bred to a TarHeel Matt female and then that to a Patrick dog, down from those same stolen dogs and I ended up with Chloe and Cornbread. Chloe won once and Cornbread is one of the best I have ever seen.

Babbling, but the point is that there is a ton of ways to get to a good dog and there is no monopoly on the path to a good dog. When you get one, you got one, and how you got there really does not matter. How you choose to get there or perpetuate from there is completely up to the person feeding the dogs.

What I think or do does not factor with the guy down the road. And the opposite is true as well.

EWO

[Frank43]

Would rather be a sought after conditioner than a breed

That is a very interesting statement. I enjoy both. I like conditioning. Breeding is a way to give me what I like to work. I don't know how I feel about the match part. I feel a dog needs to proved himself. It would probably be a necessary evil or a way to shut up a loud mouth.

I like spending time and working a dog. Watching the work and now what I am feeding sculpt his body. It is crazy to me how much the athleticism in an already athletic dog improves by feeing high quality high protein feed and working them. Its like the power to weight ratio improves their body is lighter and they get stronger. It really excites me. I do aim to do most of my work in legal endeavors. Confirmation shows etc maybe weight pull. I guess to me ADBA confirmation show means you should have one shaped like it was show night.

[EWO]

I enjoy talking about breeding and all that it entails but could care less about participating. It is far too demanding for me, just not my cup of tea.

The conditioning of a dog is by far the most intriguing, most interesting, best effort to return, and most enjoyable part of the dogs.

It is the part of the dogs that can't be bought or substituted or faked. I can't say it is the only honest part of the game but it is close to being the only honest part of the game.

Late on a Saturday night, in that cool night air it does not matter if a person lies about a pedigree, it does not matter who thinks what. it is a simple is or is not question. Is he right? or is he not?

Like horse shoes and hand grenades, sometimes close wins, but for me getting past 'close' to 'right' is what the dogs have always been about.

Since I was so keyed on that part of the game the breeding part sort of passed me by, or better said, I did not pay enough attention along the way.

EWO

[Frank43]

I don't know how to explain it. I like competition. I like management and utilizing resources. In a way thats how I look at a yard. I probably spend to much time with the dogs to be completely objective with them. If the legal and social situation were like 1930 where winning stud dogs could be advertised in the sports illustrated of the day. I would be a more active dogman. Maybe there are places and people in the woods that you can still do things, but the heat seems to be more. There have been people doing this stuff on an industrial scale today and I don't know how they are still doing it. Some were in my birth state with large yards.

This person was independently wealthy. Like super wealthy. Had a large yard with the most expensive stud dogs. I would have a yard of 10 to 12. A largely closed population of related blood. My dogs would be fed and kept to the highest standard. They would stay worked and fed within a pound or two of their active weights. I wouldn't be able to call but a few weighs and I wouldn't push my prospects far in either direction.

I breed what I like to work. The dogs that work how I like I kept. The ones that haven't I got rid of and will keep getting rid of. I may pay a stud fee to a proven producer and cross or something that I saw if the owner would let me. What I wouldn't' do is have a yard of 50 dogs from lines that produce either phenoms, cold dogs or wall jumpers.

Just from my athletic days I know the greatest percentage of people don't do basics right in whatever you do. In dogs. Are they fed right, worked right, wormed, schooled in a way that doesn't break them mentally, is the weight right. I know from the way that were work and I feed I would be pound for pound strong and athletic compared to most near me. One person was feeding his dog rice, "to make em big." So you put on a bunch of simple carbs with no muscle. My worst dog would chew through them it doesn't matter what hard biting dog he was bred down from.

The dogs would be more of a side passion. Recent history shows me that the people who have gotten too successful or visible do not have good outcomes. Wildside, Tant, (a recent friend with some issues), STP, West Penn got robbed and killed the list goes on. A low profile. A dog here and there. Small circle of competitors. Until then I stay on workout and Ill breed as mental activity.

I like raising pups. Its labor intensive. I enjoy it. I spent a lot of time with the pups handling them and following this article about working dogs. During that time I knew their personalities. I could see who was smart and who wasn't. I think those things matter when making brood choices. My ideal dog would be a combination of these three

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=23387
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=735
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=181

I have to know enough about breeding to make the dogs with gameness and wind, brains and finish, strength and durability. Can you ever get there? Maybe. Maybe not. its something to work towards. i like the whole game. Now i just limit myself to breeding and conditioning. Im not a puppy peddler. One or two litters a year and I make sure they are placed before the bitch gets stuck.

Hope that makes sense and doesn't ramble. I made myself slow down some. CYJ