View Full Version : Who is Hughes and Holcomb?
Frank43
09-02-2022, 01:27 PM
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2891
I always wonder who these guys were. Did this family die off? Ch yellow John before the cross to jocko. It seems like crews was the only one to keep it going and separate. He combined it with the cottingham Sheba blood. He still has yellow/cottingham blood. Keep wondering if there is a cabin somewhere in the Carolina's with dogs off this out there.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2277
Ch yellow John and triple ott red were out that same breeding.
I only know one other person with this that has it crossed into cottingham buck blood.
North Strong
05-08-2023, 12:42 AM
Holcomb was from Florida but he mostly used Eli, Boomerang, Bullyson dogs. Big Carver dog fan.
Some of the dogs from these type dogs ended up in the Whitley family and then another route was the breedings to the Medlin Outlaw family via Schnatterly's Rabbit/and the doubled up dogs from Medlin's George.
This blend was rough and game and for the most part bred true. The kicker is that this family was not peddled hardly at all. It is not all that popular and there is not much of it left because it was mostly bred to fill chain spots vs. breeding to sell puppies.
EWO
Frank43
05-09-2023, 07:24 PM
You can tell. I lucked up in to getting some.
Interested in the pedigree.
EWO
J. Holcomb was the one that had the Carver dogs. He bought some of the first dogs that M. Carver started selling. I did meet him down in Florida not long before he got started in the Carver line of dogs. V. Jackson's Hank beat J. Holcomb's Red Eye for Hank's second win. J. Holcomb's Red Eye was one hell of a dog and dead game. Probably one of the best Carver dogs he ever owned. Was an excellent looking black & white dog. The Ace, V.J.'s Hank dog was the sire of Rast's (Chavis' Jocko etc.) I first met J. Holcomb down in Florida he was friends with B. Davis Combine.
I believe J. Holcomb was from Georgia or later moved there. The last time I saw him was upper state S.C. I had given a young dog man C.M. a little dog off my yard called Young's Hot Boy. I believe the young dog man had won one with Hot Boy and later hooked up a show with J. Holcomb. Hot Boy was a hard charging hard biting head and mouth dog. C.M. won the show. I got to talk awhile with Jerry and that was the last time I saw him. I believe he may still be in prison but not sure about all that.
Frank43, The Holcomb person that is in your pedigree was D. Holcomb. I knew him as well. He was good friends with V. Jackson/Powell and S. McNeil. I believe D. Holcomb had also some of the Jim Williams' Paladin dogs. D. Holcomb was quite the character and could keep you laughing. Yet at show time he was dead serious. Always showed a excellent dog and in top shape. V. J was one along with others, that helped him with how to condition/feed etc.
There is a notable dog man R. or D. Carter up in N.C. that shows in the pedigree of F. Jacob's Assassin I dogs. Carter also had years back dogs off the Cotton's Bullet line. D. Holcomb and R. Carter had a show were both dogs went around three hours or so and scratched about thirty-six or more times apiece. For as I know D. Holcomb lived in S.C. Do not know if he ever moved to Florida. Hope some of this old, dog history helps.
P.S. EWO, if you read this, I know you know of this dog man Carter. His son faced booked me some few years back. At that time, he was still living. I called him Ray. Some of the pedigrees on his dogs of old yore show D. Carter as breeder. Unless there two Carters also. Which I doubt as he and F. Jacobs were good friends and had similar are same bred dogs. He may have worked some of Franks dogs. Cheers
Yes. I heard of him but never met him personally. I believe those dogs were toward the mountains but not exactly sure.
The Jacob's Assassin dog was one of the breedings where the Red Boy/Jocko-Red Boy dogs truly clicked with the Bullet blood, especially that up close Bullet blow from Bullet II.
The Assassin dog bred true, and like all did really well when bred by Mr. Jacobs and those close to him but as it got further from the source people started selling puppies.
In the late 90's early 2000's a guy from Florida bought some of the old Assassinator blood, did some crosses, and made some really good dogs. I have not heard anything from him in 10+ years I guess.
The Carter dogs from back then were the Red Boy versions that could really bite. I am not sure if he chose that as a trait but way back then, it was like a calling card. His type of Red Boy dogs were sort of the ones that made people think there was a direct link between Red Boy and Cotton's Bullet. If nothing else you can count on a Bullet dog to bite. When I first came along the Bullet dogs were known for mouth and had pretty good percentages for game dogs. I think due to selection, the Bullet family has retained the mouth over the years but gameness is not exactly their calling card.
The man, Howard C., that turned me onto the dogs as a kid in the late 70's was friends with Mr. Carter, or better said, he had a lot of respect for his dogs. Not many people truly liked HC. He was good for the dogs and good for the game, but he said things that pissed a lot of people off. DP helped me with the dogs more than anybody and he said he had been places with HC where people told him he could come back any time he wanted, but not to bring that gray headed SOB (HC) with him. That happened to me as well.
I believe one of the Bullet bred Carter dogs was bred to HC's JR dog (Red Boy son). I will have to think back and maybe even ask someone else,. but I believe the Carter version of the Bullet dogs was bred to HC's son of Red Boy, JR, maybe in the very early 80's. None of the litter worked out as the ones who were game could not bite and the biters would not scratch. Thinking back I believe that was a Carter bred female under JR.
A few years later one of those males that scratched but could not bite was bred to a female down from the Snooty/Pool Hall Red family. He was the runt male and I got him from HC for raking crap, walking dogs and hauling water. That dog never had a chance. If the match dog ran the mill at night for 30 minutes I would hang him on there for an hour when no one was around. No matter if he had ate or not, no matter the temperature. If one pulled a chain for twenty minutes mine would pull a tire for an hour. People would be happy to get as many miles out of their car or truck as I put on that dog tied to a bicycle.
Started to look back and babble.
EWO
Frank43, I do not know who the Hughes dog man is. May have been someone that knew Crews/Tant and Mr. Burns etc. Is not Mr. Lester Hughes aka Mountain Man. Someone else may know this person. Check the pedigree on other sites, may be a clue there. Will check when I get the time. Cheers
Frank43
05-17-2023, 01:27 AM
I asked crews. All he said was that he got jammed up and had to get rid of the dogs before doing time. Pure redboy dogs were hard to come by. Crews ended up with a small yard. Where he got rocky. I'm kind of a history buff. I just wonder why the dusty dog was so tight on yellow John.
That is easy to answer on Yellow John in the Dusty dog's pedigree. First in that Yellow John being tight in the Red Boy line and being a four-time winner. Made this dog desirable to continue breeding into the Chavis' Jocko line. Chavis did own this dog. S. McNeil may have handled all, or I believe at least one time the shows that Yellow John was in. Chavis was letting McNeil handle most of his shows till he pulled that crap on Apples vs Molly Bee. Molly Bee probably would have won anyhow. But what McNeil did to Apples did not help Apples at all. Apples was holding her own and may have made Molly Bee go a longer distance than Molly Bee had went before.
McNeil was high on the Yellow John dog and said the dog was a very good dog. Another reason along with a strong prey drive, Yellow John evidently had mouth to boot. I never saw Yellow John in a show. Going on common sense and what McNeil told me about Yellow John. McNeil was a excellent dog person and a excellent conditioner. V.J. and others helped him in the beginning of his time in the dogs. He knew a very good dog when he saw one. Sadly, the desire to make too much money the fast lane way. Sent him in a downward spiral and caused problems to other dog persons etc. Johnny Law had him in a big bind, which could have put his wife and young children in the street. Was many years ago, all is forgiven. Today he raises and hunts top of the line Walker Coon Hounds. I wish him the best. Cheers
ery well said.
The Yellow John dog was one of the Red Boy dogs that could bite, really bite. He had a littermate brother that is was said that his dry food had to be soaked to mush so he could eat it. "Cotton mouth/couldn't bust an egg" were the references used for JR.
During that bad time there were a number of things that happened that had a number of people shaking in their boots. I was a young kid and only heard the stories. But this is how things stick. I was lucky enough to come in under the wing of someone who did not let me make the mistakes most young guys in the dogs make. I did not have to ruin two or three or more good dogs in order to learn a particular lesson. I was lucky for that edge. Back then dog men clicked up with their local counterparts as the internet and social media didn't put each other in each other's backyards with the click of a key. The two guys that helped me most laid down some rules early on and most of them were how and who I chose to be associated with in the dogs.
There was always a 'banned list'. I could run in our circle and go out with our circle how I pleased. The above guy made that list when I was a young kid and a friend of his in NC made that list as well. I remember having a nice male in the early 90's and a weight popped up. When the owner's name popped up I was told not to pick it up, nor have mine picked up. It was sort of said, it is 'them or us'. I always chose 'us'.
They used to tell me that every time you pull out of your driveway with a dog you have to be extremely lucky to come back home that night. Every single time. Johnny Law only has to be lucky once and your life takes a major blow. So, doing multiple bad things, or doing things with people who do multiple bad things really lessens your odds of getting back home that night.
The Yellow John dog was one of the better Red Boy dogs ever. The 3/4 Red Boy dogs when Yellow John was bred to his daughters and to daughters of red Boy were nice, as they were winning and then producing. The triple bred dogs is where the wheels started to come off. The inbreeding became popular as half were selling puppies and others were trying to recreate times past and neither lead to good things, much less great things.
From those earliest tripled up breedings the 'today's Red Boy' started to pop up. Length and height remained but girth and bone faded. The over time the dogs got smaller and smaller as the inbreeding took effect. Those dogs back then were 'hoss-type'. For me, based on opinion alone, the RBJ breedings thru Tant and Waccamaw and Chavis did more Red Boy preservation than the tripled up Yellow John breedings. I don't think many give credit to the making of the Jocko dog and not many give the credit to what the Jocko family brought, maybe even less is given to Chavis and his peers who kept going back to that well when the pure Red Boy dogs became the craze.
Babbling on. Back then, anything that won four, in that area, in that time, was worth breeding. And if those dogs fend well in that same way, sometimes a 'star' is born.
EWO
Frank43
05-18-2023, 01:20 AM
What do you know about this stud to Cottingham Sheba dog. She was supposed to be cold but made good dogs. These dogs don’t seem like dumb red boy dogs to me.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2866
Frank43
05-18-2023, 05:04 PM
That is easy to answer on Yellow John in the Dusty dog's pedigree. First in that Yellow John being tight in the Red Boy line and being a four-time winner. Made this dog desirable to continue breeding into the Chavis' Jocko line. Chavis did own this dog. S. McNeil may have handled all, or I believe at least one time the shows that Yellow John was in. Chavis was letting McNeil handle most of his shows till he pulled that crap on Apples vs Molly Bee. Molly Bee probably would have won anyhow. But what McNeil did to Apples did not help Apples at all. Apples was holding her own and may have made Molly Bee go a longer distance than Molly Bee had went before.
McNeil was high on the Yellow John dog and said the dog was a very good dog. Another reason along with a strong prey drive, Yellow John evidently had mouth to boot. I never saw Yellow John in a show. Going on common sense and what McNeil told me about Yellow John. McNeil was a excellent dog person and a excellent conditioner. V.J. and others helped him in the beginning of his time in the dogs. He knew a very good dog when he saw one. Sadly, the desire to make too much money the fast lane way. Sent him in a downward spiral and caused problems to other dog persons etc. Johnny Law had him in a big bind, which could have put his wife and young children in the street. Was many years ago, all is forgiven. Today he raises and hunts top of the line Walker Coon Hounds. I wish him the best. Cheers
I hear you on the Jocko cross. I’m interested in keeping it without jocko. If I cross it would you Bolio tombstone dogs. Any opinions on yellow john/Cottingham crosses
Frank43
05-18-2023, 05:09 PM
ery well said.
The Yellow John dog was one of the Red Boy dogs that could bite, really bite. He had a littermate brother that is was said that his dry food had to be soaked to mush so he could eat it. "Cotton mouth/couldn't bust an egg" were the references used for JR.
During that bad time there were a number of things that happened that had a number of people shaking in their boots. I was a young kid and only heard the stories. But this is how things stick. I was lucky enough to come in under the wing of someone who did not let me make the mistakes most young guys in the dogs make. I did not have to ruin two or three or more good dogs in order to learn a particular lesson. I was lucky for that edge. Back then dog men clicked up with their local counterparts as the internet and social media didn't put each other in each other's backyards with the click of a key. The two guys that helped me most laid down some rules early on and most of them were how and who I chose to be associated with in the dogs.
There was always a 'banned list'. I could run in our circle and go out with our circle how I pleased. The above guy made that list when I was a young kid and a friend of his in NC made that list as well. I remember having a nice male in the early 90's and a weight popped up. When the owner's name popped up I was told not to pick it up, nor have mine picked up. It was sort of said, it is 'them or us'. I always chose 'us'.
They used to tell me that every time you pull out of your driveway with a dog you have to be extremely lucky to come back home that night. Every single time. Johnny Law only has to be lucky once and your life takes a major blow. So, doing multiple bad things, or doing things with people who do multiple bad things really lessens your odds of getting back home that night.
The Yellow John dog was one of the better Red Boy dogs ever. The 3/4 Red Boy dogs when Yellow John was bred to his daughters and to daughters of red Boy were nice, as they were winning and then producing. The triple bred dogs is where the wheels started to come off. The inbreeding became popular as half were selling puppies and others were trying to recreate times past and neither lead to good things, much less great things.
From those earliest tripled up breedings the 'today's Red Boy' started to pop up. Length and height remained but girth and bone faded. The over time the dogs got smaller and smaller as the inbreeding took effect. Those dogs back then were 'hoss-type'. For me, based on opinion alone, the RBJ breedings thru Tant and Waccamaw and Chavis did more Red Boy preservation than the tripled up Yellow John breedings. I don't think many give credit to the making of the Jocko dog and not many give the credit to what the Jocko family brought, maybe even less is given to Chavis and his peers who kept going back to that well when the pure Red Boy dogs became the craze.
Babbling on. Back then, anything that won four, in that area, in that time, was worth breeding. And if those dogs fend well in that same way, sometimes a 'star' is born.
EWO
Very good post about watching associations. I hear you on continued inbreeding. You can ruin a line. Some breeders have worked with it. You need a compatible out and come back to the line.
I'm no breeder by any stretch of the imagination.
I have used the Mims and Mims crosses for years because the source was just a few minutes down the road. Secondly, and maybe even better, when the prices of puppies skyrocketed the Mims puppies were cheap in comparison. For $300 I could get a dog I felt pretty sure would scratch (maybe the highest percentage of game dogs produced than any other) and then I had to wait for either him to knock hos own teeth out or have enough mouth to defend himself.
This blend crosses with just about anything.
I am going on twenty years now with the same corps group of dogs. Mims in then Mims out then Mims in. This has kept the percentage of game dogs pretty high. On average the mouth went up a bit but most of the time traded one type of crazy for another.
The in and out plan will work.
EWO
Powell who owned the 4X winner Termite. Had probably the last of those dogs more bred to the Jocko side. I do not know how much of that stock was preserved. He is back home now and did do an interview awhile back on the You Tube. Only he would know if any of his line was still intact. That's been a lot of years ago. Cheers
My brain does not work like it once did, and for the life of me I can't remember if HC bred to Dusty or Lanier's/Triplett's Rex Boy.
The female was down from some Snooty/Pool Hall Red stuff. So, there is always a story. He lined up a weekend trip once for a show and a visit with Katie Marlowe, to Georgia for the Snooty/Pool Hall Red females. The cost of the dogs were minimal, even for the time. Gas was relatively cheap as well. But what cost was the phone bill lining up being at the show and making the two stops along the way. When you pay $300 or so dollars for dogs and then to make that happen get a $300 phone bill someone has to pay. In today's world we can pick up a phone and call over everywhere as many times and for as long as we like for the same flat rate phone bill. Back then you paid long distance rates to call into the next county. Sort of flashed back.
I will have to ask whether the 'litter of black dogs' as they were always referred to were off Dusty or Rex Boy. There were six or 7 in the litter and they all went to the show and all won matches.
Years later HC said the Dusty II was the beginning to the end of the Red Boy dogs as stand alone type dogs, if it had not already happened. The statement had nothing to with Dusty II himself, just the fact by then, hindsight was quite revealing. By the time he said that Red Boy dogs were the most popular bulldogs on the planet. They were somewhat easy to obtain and very easy to sell.
The rule of thumb was the easier are they are to find and obtain the more likely the dog would be a flop. The smaller, less know guys who didn't breed a lot of dogs and sold even less was the place to shop if you were looking for a Red Boy dog who had a good chance of being a bulldog. The Whitley dogs, the older Cottingham dogs, the older Medlin's Outlaw dogs, etc. These dogs were links to the original Red Boy family, mostly because they had to earn their spot based on their actions not their lineage. The actual preservation was being done on a much lesser level/lesser known yet more effective.
The mass producers sent the family into a downward spiral.
EWO
Frank43
05-20-2023, 04:48 PM
How do you explain rocky. The line maintained some fire. Rocky made bullet and rom. Rocky was still pure red boy. Bullet was yellow Cottingham over a rbj female. You don’t think much of storing prepotency by inbreeding if the right breeders do it. Seems the line was prepotent.
I am no breeder so I can't offer much of an explanation.
Based on personal experience I would say Rocky's bottom half is more impactful than his top half. The Medlin's Outlaw dog, the Whaley dog, Swinson's Carolina Rose, Rex Boy. These were all dogs that rode up and down the road with different people. I am sure those four liked a lot of the same things but still they were different. Even tho it is the same family it is a form of selection, and that selection can provide some hybrid vigor.
It looks pure, or mostly pure, but Rocky is a pretty good blend. If a dog like that performs and then produces, I am not all that surprised.
EWO
Frank43
05-21-2023, 07:28 AM
I don’t know why but I have always been interested in that subfamily. There’s a balance between outcrossing and inbreeding. Maintaining vigor. Crews maintained that line a long time. Very skillful breeding to me. For some reason people like Colby that maintain good lines of dogs for long periods of time interest me
Frank43
05-21-2023, 05:44 PM
Ewo. I hear you some on the Cottingham Sheba side. She did produce some good dogs. People don’t like tight bred dogs. Sometimes they are worth the risk. This dog is tight bred. I really like him. He is smaller from being triple bred,but he is stronger that his father. I think more dog even though he is tighter. He is structurally sound. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=86638. If dusty 2 was tight bred right. Not just inbred but really inbred and selected. He had some prepotency stored. Chop and gameness. Sheba was a cold dog from what they say. I have my theories on truly cold dogs. Both sides probably contributed equally.
Frank43. How about the dogs off of Brook's Apache? Lot of good well-bred dogs there. I found all of this dog Apache's ancestors and added them to your pedigree. Ken Allen was a top competitor in his day. He may have passed; I am not sure though.
What is missing in the pedigree, is Ken Allen's Fang's sire and Ken Allen's Goldie's sire. Anyone on here that were familiar of Ken's breeding's and the sire of these two dogs mentioned. Let me know and I will add and finish out this pedigree. The Shady Hill's Devil Zack and Dann's Billy appear to be one and the same dog. I went with the one that had a picture of this dog. Pedigrees were the same. Cheers
Frank43
05-24-2023, 05:50 AM
I am interested in those too. The triple ott and yellow John dogs. My other question was about the ways some people approach breeding and culling dogs. That's why I asked does it take all that. I'm not stupid or unable to accept some don't maybe it. My way was start with hopefully good dogs then asses what is missing or needs improving. If possible find it in something related. Inbreed on ones I wanted to fix traits. Line breed etc. my point is. I think some people do random best to best breedings then end up with litters of junk. Does it take all that. I recently did a breeding i think could be a corner stone of a family. I'm building up to it sequentially.
So now I have this guy and a sister. One is sold.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=91581
They are pups but the little male feels stout to me. I call him monster. I'm excited. The out hopefully gives room to back cross to other dogs in his history.
Frank43, EWO gave you the right answer. The real question you have to ask yourself. Are you in the dog game to participate and breed dogs from your own winning dogs. Ones you have bred, that you have used. Are just to sell pups off their nice pedigrees. Tell buyers how much prey drive they have when chasing a ball or grabbing big ropes etc. hanging from trees. Shutz hound or show dog wins.
Grady Cummings was one of the tops for selling these dogs to anyone and everybody. He made his name off Boudreaux. He got various Boudreaux dogs and bitches from various dog men. He had about twenty brood pens and females along with about four or five stud dogs. He sold dogs around the world. I saw his so called four-time winner Dutch Boy many times. He never said Dutch Boy was a four-time winner. I started seeing that on the on lines pedigree site etc. Not questioning the dog's pedigree but saw no marks on the dog anywhere. Just a pretty white-headed brindle marked dog.
Only way a deep game no talent dog could win in today's real competition is to be big boned, long bodied, could be pulled tight and showed in July and August weather with high humidity where I live. K. Marlowe got some dogmen from the mountains to come to her back yard at that time of the year. She won due to knowing they were bringing barn stormers. Saw some of those dogs they were gasping for air before their show started. LOL
How do you think Don Mayfield whipped Bully Son. Got Bobby Hall to show Bully Son in that desert dry/dead heat of Texas. Bully Son had other factors against it as well before the show started. Tombstone weathered the early storm and won.
Said all this to say this. You are the manager of your dogs like a fight manager is of his team of Boxers. He knows what each fighter is capable of. The manager would know nothing of their boxing talents if he just let them play soccer or punt footballs and run up and down a basketball court. He would have to properly train them for their type of sport and to set up matches of comparable like competition. You are right back to the A, B, C, fighter. Yet sometimes in the dog game a B or C dog may be sacrificed to an A or B dog if the odds and money are in that managers favor. Just the nature of many men.
When it comes to very deep game dogs with no talent. One could consider a female for brood. Since the old timers believed that most of the gameness came from the female side. Bitch dog would still need to be big boned well put together and a calm dog. Cheers
Frank43
05-24-2023, 03:52 PM
I don’t believe in puppy peddling. I don’t know the best way to put dogs all the way out there. There are people that test and breed or run in limited circles. Patrick ran a line for years. I don’t know if I ever want to sell that many dogs. I want to form a family of dogs that are game, structurally sound, strong. I like certain styles. generally go forward, take a hold and work. Close the show when the opportunity presents. I have some studs I like. My Chris Kyle dog, abner and another. they are made how I like. Trustworthy and work hard. I think monster mash will hopefully be one of those. His mother is probably the best female I bred. Quiet and smart and can send you to see elizabeth. I’m hoping the George dog throws the things that made ch. bullet. If that combines with hanna it should be something.
For some reason it always bothers me when people are bragging about how many dogs they cull. There’s a voice in my head that says you can’t breed worth a shit. I have one dog that is not super talented. Any there has been an accident she has been the hardest to get out a hold and always ready to go back. She isn’t a phenom. She’s the type I would bet would put pressure and wear one down. After 20-30 minutes she’s getting stronger. I hear you. It’s something to think about. The two dogs I got from Crews should help. I bought one and paid stud fee for one and may try to get another. I guess there is this dog in my head I am chasing trying to create.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=23387
Like him with bt brains
I can agree with you on the bragging about culling dogs. My opinion is that if you go in search of curs, they are really easy to find. I think they will all quit. I also believe dead game dogs just die before they see enough to quit.
I also think so many curs were game dogs if given the right opportunity or better said, landed in the right place.
Forever I was in the camp of there is only one way to know if you own a game dog. Maybe I have softened later in life, I don't know. I watched an APBT/American Bulldog cross get gutted by a hog. As the old folks say, 'from asshole to appetite'. The cut started just under the chin and went damn near to her cootchie. She rolled over and I thought she was dead or would be shortly. In the bloody mess she slipped out the owner's hand and went after the hog as fast as she did prior to being cut. She took caught and the it was a blood batch. After this I knew she would die. These guys provided after care like nothing I had ever seen, all on the tailgate of a truck. I still thought she would die. When they pulled her off the tailgate the bitch popped the lead when she seen where the hog was caged, actually busting some staples. I would consider that bitch game. In my early, probably not so much.
Me personally, I never really game checked many dogs. I was sort of schooled by old guys and was lucky enough not to ruin a lot of dogs learning. I learned to roll tired dogs. I would run a dog on a mill til he was just about spent and then take him to the barn with a fresh one waiting. Similar to believing they will all quit, I also believe when they do quit it is from fatigue and frustration and the thought of not being able to get it done. Those things visit upon a tired dog sooner than on a fresh dog. I was never able to brag about rolling dogs for hours on end. If the tired dogs did things I liked in a couple three rolls that lasted 20 minutes or so, I then rolled the dice. I was betting on what I thought I was seeing. From there his game check and his first match were one in the same.
With the shorter rolls the dog does not get beat up as bad and can be rolled again in a shorter period of time. And if he proves himself in that first match all is well. The bonus is that he didn't get beat up for nothing in a game check.
After that babbling, those tired short rolls showed traits and I in turn bet on those traits.
That was the plan I was taught and that is the way I did things for a long time. The missing variable is that I never bred many dogs. The guys that taught me about dogs never bred many dogs. All three of us look back and wished we had bred this one and that one. Some of those were actually culled because they could not win.
When I was like 9-10-11 years old I can remember looking up at the old guys and the highest praises always landed on the dogs that won and the guy that worked him. I just don't remember the breeders getting a lot of love. I fell in love with winners and conditioning.
EWO
Frank43
05-24-2023, 08:45 PM
I hear you. Breeders don’t get a lot. I don’t think there are a lot of people that can consistently build a family that produces well. I think it’s a rare skill. they have to understand the box. Stp as good as he was in the box he stuck some dogs but never really had a line that I saw. Just dogs from this breeder and that breeder that he put together. I think you need it all. If I could have it like I wanted. It would be to roll my own pies. And show my own dogs. I’m not in a situation where I really the situation around me. If that changes one day where I find people with things to lose and common sense to keep things low that may change. I think I will breed a litter or two a year with some breeding goal and find some people to sell to like a closed loop. I don’t want my dogs in a lot of hands. I don’t know why there isn’t more mutual respect.
EWO, excellent remarks on the schooling etc. When I had all those books years back. I read somewhere maybe the Armitage book about a walking pre keep getting fat off dog first. Then get the dog tired and take a look at the dog in the schooling. I did it very similar to that. I even had a bitch, a Green Bay Packer line back that had no teeth. That would slam em and gum um, was easy to break her off. LOL
Earl Tudor did not believe in schooling the life out of a dog to test for gaminess. I saw dogs in schooling go through something that was more severe than a show. Turn around next month and do it again to the dog. When the dog was finally shown. Quit because there was nothing left in the dog. I to believe there is a stopping point for any of them.
How a dog is fed from the time it is conceived in the brood bitch till two years old and kept in good health plays an important factor to winning. My brother was an excellent Game Cocker. He had Field Marsh Butchers not really sure about the name breed. Took excellent care of all his Chickens. Got a simple conditioning keep from R. Morris. He won way more than he lost.
You are right on about breeders getting little recognition. Many times, good dog men get certain dogs and do not wish to let anyone know where they got their dogs. Some forty years now, my strain of dogs is still out there, and some are still showing well. Way things are now. Not to wise to want any recognition on anything. Cheers
Frank43, I knew Crews, he had some good to great dogs along with partner Tant. No doubt you take good care of your dogs. From their breeding, some should turn out well. Cheers
One of the things I learned as a kid form the 'old guys' was that the keep didn't last 6 or 8 or ten weeks. The 'keep' started 63 days before they were born when the two dogs were chosen to be bred and it lasted until the dog was no longed 'working toward the next show'.
It pretty much translated to anything and every thing can matter. Maybe not every detail affects every dog but every dog is affected by details.
I guess the object is to do the best you can in as many situations as possible. No one person nor one plan will be perfect for every dog.
My two favorite subjects in the dogs are working and feeding. I have fed just about every way possible over the years and these dogs are amazing because they seem to well regardless of feed. They will all survive on just about anything and will thrive when being fed any number of ways.
In the late 80's I was in the service and rented a farmhouse in the Pungo community near Chesapeake, VA. He was a butcher by trade and did some meat processing at home as well during their deer season. I fed whatever he brought home in a five gallon bucket. There was no rhyme nor reason to how I fed the dogs other than it came out of the bucket in the reverse order in which it went in the bucket. I won some matches back then with that being the staple of the dog's diet. It was almost feeding RAW before I knew anything about feeding RAW.
It was one of those details that did not register with me early on and it took a number of years for that light bulb to go off. Feeding raw leaves a dog leaner and does not carry big dumps around while toting a chain. When it was time to go to work and switch to a keep feed the dog was already pre-fueled with good food and from there it was adjusting supplements.
This detail didn't land on me til years later when I had a ton of dogs and I didn't have access to free raw meat daily. I went to bag food. The dogs seem to carry weight a little more on dry feed and when it was time for work I bet I said 'he really took to the keep around week 6/7/8. It took years for me to understand that after switching to keep feed the dog was actually being fueled at 8+ weeks after the switch.
Those details can also be considered lessons learned but I do believe everything matters.
EWO
Even tho those dogs were bred by different people back then, whether it was Crews or Chavis or Tant or Waccamaw, the Jocko-Red Boy dogs seemed to be cookie cutter consistent.
You could look across a field or yard full of dogs and pick out a Jocko Red Boy dog.
One of the best threads ever on this board was the battle between Sonny and Jack. Sonny's quote that sparked the debate was that "RBJ dogs had made more dead game dogs than any other".
Or in so many words. It could be read as the RBK family created it within themselves or they RIP the other game dogs.
Solid family of dogs.
S
Frank43, I knew Crews, he had some good to great dogs along with partner Tant. No doubt you take good care of your dogs. From their breeding, some should turn out well. Cheers
Frank43
05-27-2023, 06:43 PM
I agree with you that the keep isn't 6-8 weeks. This is why I hate the large yard dog people. I think it's counter productive. The dogs receive minimal attention. They aren't worked out. Any high level athlete has no offseason. There's a basic level of physical fitness that needs to be maintained. These large dog yards don't get that. Just random breeding and the hope there is a phenom in there. A pile of dead dogs. Someone bragging how hard they are on the dogs.
I hear you on the consistency of red boy jocko dogs. It starts with how they were bred. My interest isn't in redboy jocko dogs per se but yellow John cottingham dogs no jocko.
If you pursue Yellow John and those first Cottingham dogs the Jocko is already there just not papered that way.
Big boned, dumb as a stump, and the majority would scratch all night. The ones that did those things but could bite are the ones we talk about still today.
An older fellow once told me when a Red Boy dog could bite that was Mr. Krebbs coming thru and when they could not bite it was Mr. Teal coming to the front.
EWO
Frank43
05-28-2023, 08:29 AM
the crews dogs I have been exposed to, seem smarter than the average red boy dog. they are intense but seem smarter than the average redboy dog.
That can be based on selection as well. Along the way if someone chose the smarter dogs from the bunch then the smarter dogs should perpetuate.
The kicker is that the original Red Boy dogs were not known to be smart dogs. They were called dumb ol' Red Boy dogs, even tagged those first RBJ dogs as dumb ol' Jocko-Red Boy dogs.
Back then they were singularly focused and whatever they grabbed is where they stayed and usually took more than they gave. In the beginning the crosses were made to either add mouth to a Red Boy dog or add depth to hard charging/hard mouth to another family.
From there some smart ones popped up. The Red Boy dogs I dealt with never really had 'smart' as a calling card. We felt we were scratching a high percentage of the time.
We concentrated on looking for mouth. The dogs that could bite were matched and sometimes bred.
Every now and then we had some smart ones but they were usually a cross of some sort.
I am no breeder but I do believe if you select certain traits and breed for those you will in time get those traits. If you do not do anything to remove certain traits, again, thru selection, you will get those traits too.
EWO
Frank43
05-28-2023, 11:09 AM
It is all selection. I just wonder how redboy himself was. Did Cottingham Sheba throw some brains. I was talking to someone yesterday. I told the bolio tombstone dogs I have been around seem to have an iq of 130 -140. While the crews yellow Cottingham/rocky dogs. They seem to have the redboy intensity but more brains. Like their iq is 120. I just wonder if that is one thing that they selected for. Dumb scratch all day.
CYJ can answer to what Red Boy was back then. He is one of the last 'first hand knowledge' people left in the dogs.
I can only attest to what I seen off Red Boy (as a kid). Thise dogs were big, slow and dumb but they were super intense and would scratch to a sign post. For the most part they would take far more than they would give. There were very few that separated themselves with brains. The percentage of game dogs was pretty high but the ones that stood out were the ones that could bite.
What I grew up in never looked at gameness as a factor as it would be better said it was considered a 'given'. It was sort of understood.
From there mouth became the primary factor in whether as dog had a chance or was given a chance to show. The Red Boy dogs I remember being on the yard for more than a couple years were the ones that could bite.
Later on people bred 'smart' dogs to the family and in turn got some smart dogs here and there.
From there, and not saying it is fact or just how things are remembered, it seemed like people went to Red Boy to fix everything bulldog. Almost like Red Boy could make game dogs out of Cocker Spaniels. Every now and then a a really good one would pop out from those early crosses. The myths of Red Boy being the 'be all-end all' of game dogs really started to grow and spread.
The popularity started to rise and soon it was skyrocketing. Those early on third, fourth and fifth generation Red Boy dogs were 'bred back and forth to be pure' and from there the prices went up and the ability to stand alone went down.
I am no expert on Red Boy dogs and I don't have personal experience with every family nor every strain. I think back to those dogs I was around as a kid and when one of the dogs bred heavier on the Red Boy popped up that looked, acted and performed like those childhood Red Boy dogs I try to latch on to them.
From there I landed on the Mims family and the Mims strain of Red Boy dogs. His dogs were basically three-way crosses. The better ones that I had were 50% Red Boy and then a blend of Snooty and Bolio for the other half. It was some Vindicator and Paladin blood in the back but for the most part it was Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio.
We had a bunch of high percentage game dogs over the years from the Mims family. A lot of these dogs were super smart, slick as glass and were offensively minded head dogs. For a family, mouth was average to above average but every now and then there some freak mouthed dogs in the mix.
Even at 50% or 3/4, every now and then we would get a big, slow and dumb dog that reminded me of the dogs I first known as Red Boy dogs. Almost like Red Boy had navigated his way thru 30-40 years of breeding, crosses included.
I am not sure what Sheba threw. The Cottingham dogs were known to be game. The Cottinghams matched a lot of dogs, and they came out with a lot of dogs that came out, won by outlasting the other and did not come back out afterwards. They had a number of picked up game dogs. They were not known for being super biters nor being super smart. But just like the Red Boy dogs I knew as a kid they would make scratch.
The really heavy Red Boy dogs that I have seen do good things and almost look like stand alone dogs is when someone using different strains of Red Boy dogs together. One of the better ones I have seen was a dog called Bubba who was bred down from Hardcore Kennels Chance to some of the Pee Dee Kennels Red Boy dogs. That family was bred to a Mims/Cottingham/Medlin's Outlaw blood. This dog was maybe 3/4 or better but won a ton of matches. His owner would pull him off the chain anytime something close to his chain weight was open. The dog was big, slow and had a ton of mouth. I would not say he was super smart but I will say he would not trade and swap being happy getting the short end of the stick just to have one end of the stick.
EWO
Frank43
05-30-2023, 04:13 PM
I hear you. I have been blending some bolio tombstone with redboy. I like the family. How much Redboy is the question snd can you find redboy that doesn't destroy the mouth and the brains. Basically you're looking for the ones with the structure and wind that Redboy brings. It doesn't seem like you need a lot. I have had 1/4 redboy and some still scream. I like ones that get on your head control the action snd close the show. I lost a good dog the other day off a dumb mistake. I have two kids off her. I wanted to build around that dog. Her mom and dad are still there so I guess you can try the breeding again. Wait for this son to grow and go back to the grandmother hoping the out keeps some vigor. I have my one crews female that I can breed when she comes in. Well built and intense. Seems to have some mouth. These losses hurt. I have some sisters I farmed out. One is in a pet home. That sister was like the dog I lost. Maybe stick her to the dog I was going to breed the dog I lost to.
As to redboy. I like my mix. I think you need it. How much and how many pure dogs do you need.
To be honest theirs is something about that cross when you get the redboy wind with the fast twitch muscle the bolio dogs bring.
The Bolio-Red Boy combination is age old.
When Patrick's Kasai was crossed onto the Mims family the heavier the Red Boy on the Mims side the better. Somewhere the shot of Snooty gave it some boost as well.
Kasai thru freak strong pound for pound dogs. 37-40lbs on the lead felt like a 60-70lb dog dragging you down the road.
They cut weight better than any family of dog I have ever seen. They could be pulled to nothing and maintained that type of pound for pound strength.
The funniest, and maybe the oddest, is that Patrick's Kasai threw a boat load of mouth. If the female could bite a little bit, the offspring could flat shut it down.
Crossed to the Mims females the dogs could bite and breathe with the best of them and muscle their way in if their talent did not get them there.
Nice families.
EWO
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41369
This is one of the couple three dogs off Kasai that did not get the mouth. Double bred Medlin's Charlie on the bottom, and of the Red Boy/Medlin type strains these dogs could bite. All the dogs in this litter but one made it to the show. One female was deemed a brood dog from the git go. Another collected a forfeit and paid a forfeit then won one off the chain.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=42272
This dog made the gamest scratch I have ever seen. He won one legit and I was talked into counting the 1st one.
He was hooked at 37 and the guy paid the forfeit on the Monday or Tuesday before the show. I fed him back up over the next couple of days. On Friday another 37 show got cancelled and I got a call. I had just fed him and he was well over the 37 mark. I told them I would weigh him on Saturday morning and see how much he weighed. He was a hair under 40 and then took two pretty good dumps. I weighed him that afternoon and he was 39 even, maybe an ounce over. They wanted to do it anyway and I did not. I did not see the point of getting the two pounds and then listen to that as the excuse afterwards.
We ended up doing it and I got nearly 2 pounds. It was over early but took about 20 more minutes for it to be officially over.
I never intended to count it as a W but in time I considered it a W nonetheless.
Just a couple of the Bolio-Red Boy we played with some years back.
EWO
Frank43
06-04-2023, 12:20 PM
The Bolio-Red Boy combination is age old.
When Patrick's Kasai was crossed onto the Mims family the heavier the Red Boy on the Mims side the better. Somewhere the shot of Snooty gave it some boost as well.
Kasai thru freak strong pound for pound dogs. 37-40lbs on the lead felt like a 60-70lb dog dragging you down the road.
They cut weight better than any family of dog I have ever seen. They could be pulled to nothing and maintained that type of pound for pound strength.
The funniest, and maybe the oddest, is that Patrick's Kasai threw a boat load of mouth. If the female could bite a little bit, the offspring could flat shut it down.
Crossed to the Mims females the dogs could bite and breathe with the best of them and muscle their way in if their talent did not get them there.
Nice families.
EWO
I was talking the other day to someone about this. I don’t know if you get kennel blind. Or you see a certain portion of dogs a kennel has that you want to focus on and mix to your taste. I have someone I discuss breeding theories with. I would rather not name them. I had a female that sounds like Kasai. She was pound for pound strong. Her mother was too. She approached things with a plan. Like a boxer working off a jab. Get control. Manage the distantance. Close the show. Due to some unfortunate events maybe stupidity I lost her. I still have her mother and brothers. Hopefully I can bring her back. I think there is a mix within the family. It’s bringing out the body style and plan of action I like. I feel like these Redboy family bolio tombstone crosses are a universe. Within it is a subfamily than can be built off dogs that I like to work how I like.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=46881
Sometimes re-creating something from the past is really hard to do. This is the first breeding between Damien and Holly.
Damien was owned by a guy who would not have a Red Boy dog, not have one period. He had a yard full of rough ass game Eli bred type dogs and they could all bite. He was hard on the dogs and although I think he put some good ones down along the way...if it was on his yard and two years old it was just as good and as known game as any other. Tough place to hold down a spot.
Holly had a brother Ch Charlie (4XW). He was maybe the best dog I had ever seen. The owner of Damien saw him and was really impressed, even if he was 50% Red Boy. Then he saw the sister Polly (2XW) and she was not as talented as Charlie but she was all the more determined. I felt like she got the short end of the stick on show night. We all pooled together, everyone had a vote, but the actual owner made the final call. I voted to move on to a better situation. The owner went with it and she proved she had the heart to overcome.
Holly had the heart of a champion as well and the decision was made to cross the two families.
There were 7 pups in the litter and six went to the show with a 1st time out record of 6-0 for the six. Doorstop was #7 but he ended his career early with bad habits. He was flat teethed by 16-18 months and was down to the gums by 2 years old. All being said, he may have been the best in the litter except he did nothing of record but stop other dogs. No W's.
The owners of the other six asked for a repeat breeding as the first litter was doing really well at the time. Holly came in heat, the breeding was done and I think it was four or maybe five.
Average run of the mill later. I think there was one winner, a couple three curs and a couple three game plugs.
I think you have to pick some traits from the past and add them to the new dog-going forward.
If picturing the new dog as the old dog in hoped of recreating-I think there is a lot of room for disappointment.
Good luck.
EWO