View Full Version : Protein ?
TrailerTrash
09-27-2022, 02:16 PM
How much protein does a dog need while working ? ie. 1 gram per pound etc. Have been told a couple different numbers just curious .
TrailerTrash
09-28-2022, 02:42 AM
Mr.Garner stated studies show 3 grams per pound dogs body weight . A friend of mine who even Schoolboy stated his dogs never ran hot regardless of temperature or altitude told me 1 gram per pound dogs body weight . So just curious what or if any of you gave it a thought before . Just been getting in to the how and why of everything as of late . Thanks for any insight .
IMHO and the way my partner did it. You are first going to pre keep your dog and reduce your dog during the pre-keep. Using a high-quality kibble of say 30 percent protein/30 percent fat is best in cold weather. A 22 percent protein/12 percent fat in warm weather or hot summer.
Once you get your dog, down to four ribs and just the tip of the hip bone showing. Use only that amount of kibble through rest of keep. You are going to build the dog back up with the Chicken Backs/Necks. Generally, you have for a few weeks before the pre keep have gotten the dog adjusted to the new kibble. You reduce that amount of kibble that had the dog at its chain weight by 1/4 to 1/2 to one cup/two cups starting into the pre keep. Depending on size of dog. Big dog one to two cups/little dog 1/2 to 1/4 cup.
The very best meat and Protein wise is Chicken meat. V.J. started out with one pressure cooked Chicken back and neck. Has your meat protein/bone protein/ and fat altogether with broth.
Taking a dog down to its lowest weight while still keeping its strength using light work and hand walking. This pre keep tones the dog up, toughens feet pads etc. and works the gut fat out. During that time any additives/worming schedule are to be introduced. Now, Garner has as I understand an excellent additive that meets all of that sort of thing except the worming. Helps to keep it simple.
As you are building the dog back up to its show weight. You add a Chicken Back, neck with only the kibble amount you used in the pre keep no more. Once you get the dog up to its show pulling weight that you feel is right. You use the amount of Chicken Backs and necks and the broth to keep said dog on weight.
You will be getting enough protein/fat and natural bone and bone marrow. The wrong kind and too high a protein and type fat can run a dog hot.
You have also got to consider where you live. Very cold region may have to add some fish meal for added heat to the dog's body to stay warm, if kenneled outside. Showing and pulling a dog in a hot/humid or desert type weather in summertime. Dog has got to be shown leaner and kibble Protein/Fat needs to be lower. The Chicken meat /Chicken fat still works best in this type of environment.
Unless in extreme cold conditions. Chicken meat/ Chicken bone/Chicken fat is the over best way to feed a working type of dog. Do it this way you will not have to worry about how much protein etc. Too much and wrong type of protein will be hard on a dog's kidneys when under conditioning stress. You have to learn to keep it as simple as possible.
Start weighing this amount or adding how much of this and that. If something goes wrong, you will not know or even have enough time to fix the problem. Why it is best to do pre keeps on every promising show dog you are going to pull and take a look at. Do your experiments during that time of learning. Not on a main show dog event. LOL
Now here is the kicker. James Crenshaw did the opposite. He used a certain amount of pressure-cooked Chicken meat and leg bone and no extra added. Kept dog on weight with a good quality Kibble. Results were the same either way.
The secret was when using any kibble and your main workouts gradually get into three to five hours past the normal twenty-four-hour daily feeding. Those last four days including the three rest days. You do not put that dog back on a twenty-four- hour feeding cycle. Stay with the 28 to 30 hour feeding time. If not, the dog will not be fully cleaned out at weigh in and show time.
Can still run hot and all the hard work can be for naught. Cheers
TrailerTrash
10-24-2022, 05:49 AM
Appreciate you taking the time and effort to offer your insight , greatly appreciated . I have been using a 30/20 kibble and using Garners RF1 when shaping one and have to say it works very well . The stools are alot smaller and the dogs are always ready to work . I do build it up slowly to the full dosage and do not begin till after pre keep which is very similiar to what you have advised . I have a pup that has been on Orijen since birth and is responding extremly well . Will see how he responds to that when I really start putting the miles to him etc ... Now my friend has been drilling into me the importance of weighing the dog multiple times , feeding exact same times , measuring time between stools etc so the dog is empty and at true weight for the event . So he is with you on that . I'm really debating going raw . Been doing my research but still dragging my feet . Wanna give the best I can as they give so much to me and for me . Thanks again for all your help and insight sir .
I have no knowledge on raw feeding. Probably the best source of info on that will be from California Jack's books or any article he has written on that subject. Would keep using Garner's supplement. He probably has good knowledge on raw keep feeds.
Since this type feeding will clear the dog's system faster and more completely. The last fourth day feeding, and workout is to base the rest of three-day feeding amounts before weighing in. You probably can get by around a 26-hour feeding. You may have to do some pre keeps on upcoming dogs you wish to see how well they pull/show. How many hours the dog takes to clean out on a raw feed keep. Doing this several times will give you a good timeline base. Long as you do not start changing raw feed ingredients.
I can see where raw feeding would work well in hot weather and high humidity locations. Not so sure in cold to very cold weather locations and dog is kenneled outside. Might need the kibble for support and have a full feed feeling. Example, after eating eggs/bacon/steak etc. The way Oatmeal with extra butter/walnuts and some black strap molasses makes a person feel while working in cold weather. The old saying it sticks to your ribs. LOL
For as weighing a dog, best to have a weigh apparatus that is accurate, and dog can stand on it. Hanging up on a scale all the time could hurt a shoulder. (P.S. never let a dog jump up on or down off any type of mill). Can easily hurt the back end are bruise the kidneys.
While working a dog through a pre keep. You just watch ribs and tip of back bone. Get there then weigh dog. If still strong, bright eyed, wagging tail, and kicking dirt. That is its bottom weight. You will have to look at your weather environment and other factors I have mentioned to determine how much you wish to come back up to. Doing lots of pre keeps overtime helps a lot in learning all this. It is that last week and last four days that you need to weigh daily as you are pointing and peaking the dog. The last 24 to 30 hours before show time is very important. Working dog through the main keep. Weighing every two to three days usually is enough. Watching those foot pads daily is very important.
Based on the thirty hours before weighing in and show time. Reintroduce the water at the twenty-four-hour mark with a broth or electrolyte etc. added if needed. At twelve-hour mark after walking/rub down etc. Dog is weighing light, add the number of fluid ounces dog is light. Some let dog drink till lifts head at the twelve-hour mark. At six-hour mark before weigh in time. Walk dog/rub down then weigh. Still light either give the number of fluid ounces of water the dog is light or allow to drink till lifts head. My veterinarian said all fluids in stomach/ kidneys clear in six hours. Now James Crenshaw stated I believe in his book if dog is still light, he gave fluids at up to the three-hour mark before weigh in.
If you attend a muti dog weight pulling/showing show. Not on the billet to be the first one to show. End up two or three hours later down the line, till your show comes up. Your dog and all that hard work may well be for naught. A dog in that situation can pass its peak, dehydrate and become stale. If your competitors', you pull against like to show up late etc. You should have a stake holder holding X amount of money from both parties to break that bad habit or do no pulling/showing with them. Weigh in time should be exactly as stated on said day and said hour. Both parties should fully understand to show up on time. Cheers
I never got to prove the raw feeding out. Since there was really no top-of-the-line supplements like Garner is putting out. He has been a pioneer in that field. When that day arrives, hope Tom has sold his business to a well-trained family person or persons that will keep his supplements quality up to his standards and best prices.
I felt that using a proper high quality kibbled feed with said supplements could get the job done if feeding on the twenty-eight-to-thirty-hour cycle and pointing your dog the last four days counting back from weigh in time.
Seems you have already done this with very good results. Why change and go through all those other added headaches. LOL
Feeding the way, you are now. All you have to learn is the difference from your cold weather type performing dog and a hot weather performing type dog, and the overall type of weather you deal with the most year-round. Simply adjust the protein to fat ratio of the quality kibble feed you are using. More Protein/Fat kibble in cold weather and less in the hot weather. The feed company you use should make both.
Many years back I paid Rowell a unannounced visit. He was pulling a dog on his round table. Right close by he had some cans of at that time. Top of the line Alpo canned dog food. He started quickly removing the dog food cans and then took the dog off the mill. I figured he was using the canned and kibbled feed. LOL
Back then where we lived there was a dog food kibble making company. Was a local Animal Stock market nearby. This dog food feed Company bought all that animal stock markets old horses/cows and any dead large animals off the local farmers etc. The kibble was only cooked corn and loaded with meat/bone pellets etc. The hunting dogs performed very well on their feed. Believe it was called Jim Dandy. The Kibbled dog foods went way down in quality after the Humane Society got a bill passed that dog food companies could not buy Horses etc., from Animal Stock markets or all those wild mustangs running loose today.
I saw a dog Mr. Teal was working. He came outside with the feed in a large pan. It had x amount cups of that Jim Dandy feed some cooked greens/ Liver and big boiled Turkey egg. His dog looked great. First time I worked a dog. I used that Jim Daddy Kibble/ cooked fat back collard greens/ some cow liver/ and a couple of boiled eggs with shells included. Added one of my wife's corn bread Hoe cakes. My dogs would about take your arm off when offered one of her hoe cakes. LOL That dog looked great and was nice and shiny. Did all its work with no problems and did well in the dog show.
Was later when I tried to start trying all sorts of things and adding this and that. Trying to make things ten times better. Things got worse and worse. LOL
If you have already gotten your own way of skinning your cats. Everything is working well for you. Stick to it and let someone else do all that crazy stuff like I did, when I first started with the dogs. If you see that your competitors are doing stupid stuff. Let them roll on. You need something to practice on before the real competition shows up. LOL
TrailerTrash
10-24-2022, 09:51 PM
You know what , I'm gonna stick with the 30/20 kibble and RF1 ... it has given me great results , I should just really try and dial it in to near perfection . Just always thinking I can do better , but if this is working I can redirect that energy to other areas of my stewardship that I feel are lacking . I really like the idea of a standing scale as opposed to hanging . Saw Fat Bill did that too in a video of him working a dog . Had a crate on a floor scale to weight the dog . Gonna go that route in the near future for sure .
You are starting to sound like a well-seasoned dog man. Using your good ole common sense. Your dogs are not running hot. It's all good.
One thing I would like to have tried, using Garner's RF1 supplement through the pre-keep and the keep. Especially in cold weather.
Reduce the dog through the pre-condition/pre keep with the high-grade kibble 30/20. Once on the best bottom weight that would be all of the Kibble I would use. Like I said in previous remarks above.
Then gradually build dog back up to show weight. Starting with 1/2 to one can of high-grade chicken meat canned dog food. Which usually yields around four hundred calories total per can. With your break down of protein/fats/carbs and around 78% moisture per can.
The moisture content is not a bad thing. A working dog that has access to clean drinking water. Can increase its endurance by seventy five percent with proper ratio of good fats in the diet. A hard-working dog has to have access to a proper amount of daily water to burn fat calories efficiently.
Using one heaping tablespoon of Desiccated liver and one tablespoon of Non-Fortified Nutrional Yeast. One time daily in main feed will increase stress stability during the work and in the show. Helps with building a higher blood count as well. I still like some salt free greens mixed in and a small clove of garlic.
Well, enough I am starting to get into might have, could have etc. Something V.J. time to time would have to do for me. Reel me back in. LOL Never try anything new in an upcoming show. That is what pre keeps are for. Hope some of these IMHO thoughts helps someone. Cheers
It takes a lot a lot of protein to fuel and recover a dog when there is not a lot of fat in his diet.
Dogs will 'learn' to use energy from the foods they are fed. It takes as many as 8-10 weeks for a dog to acclimate to a change in feed.
The 24/20 and 30/20 dog foods out there are a bit much on protein and not enough fat.
Dogs do good on these type diets but they also did good on the dog foods of the 60's and 70's when it was not much more than gravy flavored cardboard.
If the fat content of the diet is raised to a much higher percentage of say, 30%-40% of his daily meal and after 8-10 weeks of acclimation his need for protein will be greatly decreased. Instead of using protein for fuel and then trying to use the remainder for recovery will often leave the dog 'not recovered' and the next day can't be as efficient or as productive as it should/could have been,
The worstt part is the kidney issues lead to the demise of as many dogs as any thing out there. Most proteins, especially dried bag foods are hard for the kidneys to process. The extra proteins put a load on the kidneys and most dogs when they need their kidneys the most have been pulled down tight to the fine line between hydrated and dehydrated. This is not the time to doing anything that places load on the kidneys.
Proteins burn hotter and create less water per calorie burned than fat. With a high fat dies the dog will run cooler thru the work and then use said proteins for recovery. The recovery times will decrease as the amount of proteins are used the kidney function is not affected by the dry food proteins.
RAW food has been proven to be the best means feeding a performance animal but it can be done with bag food. The digestibility and assimilation is by far the biggest advantage. A dog with a high animal fat diet with actual animal meat as protein sources will work cooler and recover quicker than his dry bag counterpart, all things being equal.
As far as the RF-1 and similar products, read the ingredients. Most of what is int he bottle is fillers. You can buy all the ingredients to make your own "RF-1" for the same thing you are paying for the actual advertised product, but then make 10-15 times more from your bulk ingredients. You can save hundreds.
But with all that said, the old adage of 'if a guy is winning feeding corn flakes and cabbage' you will be hard pressed to change his mind. When it is working, it is working, but to get better there has to be room for change.
Good luck.
EWO II
Ditto EWO II. Once again you have nailed it. Why we liked the Chicken necks and backs. Use only the amount of Kibble that was used to reduce the dog in the pre keep. Those necks and backs had plenty of good bone and the right balance of protein and plenty of fat.
Dog was kept on weight by not adding more kibble but more chicken necks and backs. I feel with enough greens/ one tablespoon of non-fortified nutritional yeast/one tablespoon of desiccated liver. Maybe a few other items for raw feeding. May need no kibble feed period.
I am guessing a dog feed the raw way would shape up faster. Probably the feed cycle on the last three days would change from 30 hours to 26 hours. Never got to do this so really do not know.
I will always wonder when I saw Rowell hiding that Alpo Chicken meat canned dog food. When I walked out in his back yard that day. He had a dog working his table. He stopped everything until my visit was over. I probably need to call him if his # has not changed.
I remember that Maffie fellow that wrote two very good novel books on Pit dogs. He conditioned his dogs on some sort of vegetable feed keep. He did well in competition. Had some well-bred dogs.
I knew a successful dog person that fed only corn flakes or some type cereal with the Chicken meat that last three days. Cheers
The first dog i worked who was a totally raw fed dog prior to startign work threw me for a loop. With dry food there is a certain amount of poop involved, even with the high end brands. On RAW the food is assimilated much more efficiently and there is much less waste. The daily dumps were smaller and harder to read.
The last three days worried me because I was accustomed to a fairly honking size pile which helped me indicate when he was empty. On RAW the piles are consistently smaller and my first time I was worried that I was on target weight but that weight included a dump, which in theory is off weight, plus all the issues with the kidneys of running a dog with dumps remaining.
Plus on RAW the dog is typically leaner and comes to weight quicker and I am not a fan of rapid weight reduction.
Also to the Alpo, or any other feed actually works. These dogs are amazing and a good dog is a good dog whether he is fed premium RAW or corn flakes and cabbage. Sometimes the most important part about feeding a dog is that we feel good about/get the warm fuzzies from what we are feeding the dog. Funny how that works.
A couple three years ago a well-respected guy I knew as a kid 'came out of retirement' and worked a dog the exact same way he did in the 70's. The actual dry food is more than likely a higher quality but he use dry food, brown rice, chicken necks, mustard greens, and an assortment of jack cheeses. He used a half can of jack mackeral it mixes all the food together to make a blended much. He boiled some of the chicken necks to make a broth. He used that broth after the work session to mix in supplements like Red Cell for horses or Clovite horse conditioner. He worked the dog in the mornings after work and fed him the brothy solution. He believed the rub down was as important as the work and went as far as to say without the rub down half the work was wasted. He hand walked the dog for miles on end and used an old school carpet mill. Jute backed, 70's style carpet sliding on sanded plywood and end rollers made of stationery PVC pipe. If he had an 8-track player with an assortment of 70's 8-track tapes we would have been back in time.
He worked his dogs just over weight, stopped supplementation ten days out, stopped work five days out and cut feed on days five and four to draw the dog to weight. The last three days he was on a 30 hour cycle to get the dog empty.
On show night he was as well prepared as any dog I have ever seen.
He had taught me the lesson many years before but he reminded me, "Son, it is always about the dog and always make it about the dog".
Corn flakes and bran cereal were a must once upon a time. There was never any real nutritional value but it did help make stools and many a dog has been read by the stool it leaves. With that, there is some value. Plus it corn/bran flakes are a hard digest for the dog so if it is a dog that is outside in the cold the harder digestive work will create some warmth in the body and the shivering weight loss will not be as impactful.
I am a big fan of the chicken backs and chicken necks to this day. Mr. James Edwards (of Molly Bee fame) once told us that the spinal fluids in the backs and necks had regenerative powers that were not available in other parts of the chicken. I went with, 'Molly Bee won eight times and nothing ever scratched back to her so obviously chicken necks are the way to go'. That is not exactly science but when a guy is winning with corn flakes and cabbage it will be hard to convince him otherwise and he will be able to convince others with each win he attains. It just works that way,.
CYJ, glad to see you post. I tell the board(s) all the time you are one of the last links to the real dogs of yesteryear. Your thoughts, memories and writing are golden.
I wish that day under Tom's tree had not been a 102 degrees and I could have monopolized all of your time (and maybe wished for a shot of air conditioning) but it was July in the Carolinas. That is how we have to roll.
EWO II
One of the main reasons for lower fat and moisture content in Kibble dog foods. Is the shorter shelf life and kibble becoming rancid. California Jack did an excellent review on the best dog food kibble brands. Still, he also said raw feeding is still superior which is so true. Cheers
Ditto EWO II. Thanks for the compliment. Was very hot that day at Tom's place. Might try to catch the next get together this coming year. I learned there is an easier way to get there. Last time I came down on that interstate. Was running three lanes abreast. I felt like I was on that North Carolina stock car racing track called the Brick Yard. LOL Cheers
Very true. When I buy dry feed I use a 24-20 brand. It is cheap(er) and nothing to write home about.
I add raw meats but there is no rhyme nor reasoning to what I add. Basically, whatever I can get on the cheap (and nothing seems to be cheap anymore).
I use a lot of eggs. The chickens go on a laying spree, and we don't eat them at the rate they are laying at times.
I have always been interested in how people feed these dogs. Couple that with people are wildly successful feeding in just about every way.
I met an older fellow once down in the Pee Dee area of SC. He worked at a chicken house, and they pretty much gave him the eggs that were not fertile. He brought home by the five-gallon bucket. He had a big wash tub where he boiled rice and whatever scraps be he had from the house. Just as the rice was just about cooked he dumped in the five-gallon bucket of eggs. When it was just about cool, he added a scoop of dried goat's milk. He stirred it all together with a boat paddle. He fed bulldogs and coon dogs and beagles. I only heard the stroies of his rabbit dogs, but his coon dogs were top notch. His bulldogs were solid. They all looked healthy and performed well.
It is really easy to knock holes all thru his feed plan based on science and the advances in canine nutrition and supplementation. He was getting to the same place I was getting but for pennies on the dollar.
Always interested in other's approach.
EWO II
One of the main reasons for lower fat and moisture content in Kibble dog foods. Is the shorter shelf life and kibble becoming rancid. California Jack did an excellent review on the best dog food kibble brands. Still, he also said raw feeding is still superior which is so true. Cheers