View Full Version : Bert Sorrells' Stuff
Were those sorrell dogs any gud ?................and what about the gr ch yellow stuff?
STONEWALL
02-25-2012, 12:07 AM
The Bert Sorrell dogs were good once upon a time. I can't speak on the GR.CH. Yellow stuff.
STORMY
02-25-2012, 01:21 PM
in early 90's sorrell dog were on the up and running bloodline to have seems.yellow 2 blood last one that i know of that runs it tight would be get down knls pure yellow (waccamaw knls)he's on here often.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pictures/324353.jpg (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=324353)
the only dog in the world who won against 3gr ch and 1 ch, how good do you want them
Article pulled from SK and originated in Zinetti's book Best of the Best
It's time to set the record straight and clean up anything and everything around the greatest dog that ever crossed the Pit, history "from the womb to the tomb"
The main Character of this story is CH Silver, the true legend from Serbia, his name should be written in the "hall of fame" right beside other great dogs such as: Dibo, CH Jeep R.O.M, CH Homer R.O.M CH Honeybunch R.O.M CH Chinaman R.O.M Bullyson and others, but as close as possible to Double GR CH Tornado.
His owner Pera King from Golden king kennels also deserves by his results that his name standing proud right beside other great dogmen such as Earl Tudor, Mourice Carver, Don Mayfield, Andre Giroux, etc. But lets go right to the beginning when CH Silver arrived into Pera King's yard..
GR CH King was part of Pera's family, he lived with them in thier apartment and when Pera travelled for business king was usually following him wherever. Pera loved that dog to the core and achieved great results with him. King was matched 8 times and was
considered by most dogmen to be a top dog. Pera made a big mistake when he brought him out for his last time when he was almost 9 years old. GR CH King was not properly peaked out, old... and he lost his title very Game into Atila kennels GR CH Dendy, King died on his way home.
But to go back to Silver, while GR CH King was alive pera wanted to breed him to the best females around and as pera liked B. Sorrells bred dogs very much he decided to take a Bitch from that bloodline, he bought a 7 month old pure Sorrells female from croatia, from Loren kennels. She was very hot and a few weeks after even if just a puppy Pera rolled her to see that she was really good. Pera named her Vidra and decided to buy a few more dogs from Loren kennels, he purchased 3 belly brothers and 2 belly sisters of Vidra, One of the males was named Silver.
That litter was whelped on 14th June 1998 it was a large litter of 12 pups, the sire was a pure sorrells dog from Germany, called Lone star, the dam of the litter was Zivkovic's Nera aka Loren's Sherry, a pure Sorells bred bitch.
Quite soon Silver showed to have great potential, he was getting better and better after each roll, showing to be smart as any dog should be, a dog that had the ability to stay out of trouble never taking any serious beating.
Pera liked him and rolled him more and more, so Silver had 12 rolls before his 1st contracted Match. It looked obvious that Silver was an Ace caliber dog, born to be a winner, a once in a lifetime dog. Years ago an old timer said: "you need lots of hard work to make a champion" but pera thought that a true Champion is just born that way, an Ace dog likes to win no matter who conditions him. Pera understood that Silver was damn Game and had attitude, wind and power and since his pet CH King was dead and there was a room in his apartment, Silver moved there to be part of pera's family, to live with them 24 hours a day.
Silver is a very friendly dog and that year (1999) also pera's daughter Angela was born, she spent with her pet Silver all her life until today.
Pera King is known to always go into top competion and like big bets, so he called Alen from Montenegro kennels and challenged his GR CH Jocker the best dog pera could find at Silver's weight. Jocker beat pera before and pera knew it was time for payback, he said that his Silver was only 20 months old and Alan thought it would be an easy one for his Grand Champion. Contest was hooked up that day, Jocker was dog of the year 1998 in Gameness magazine and these are his victories:
Won over Djindja's GR CH Jeep 6xw in 0:13
Won over Bagdala boys CH Lucky 4xw in 0:49
Won over Golden King's (Ch) Krokodil in 1:10
Won over Novica's Demon in 0:27
Won over Ganac's Gipsy 1xw in 0:45
GR CH Jocker won 5 in the fast lane and was known to be a hard mothed dog with a tremendous back end finish. Nobody gave any chance to Silver against the famous Jocker dog, but they did'nt know how far they were from the truth.
Pera and Silver travelled to GR CH Jocker's town, bet was high on each side, over 200 people to witness Jocker and Silver Match. The show went on and Silver was on Jockers head dancing with long deep holds, Silver managed to out-manouver every Jocker's attempt to make his way. At 40 min mark Silver Started working on a tired and frustrated Jocker, hitting hard into the shoulders and legs. At 1 hour and 7 mins it was all over, Silver was smarter, faster, and stronger and it was obvious that the Game Jocker could'nt win, so Alen picked him up at 1 hour and 10 min.
Of course as always many rumers got Started among "true dogmen", they said that "Jocker was not in good shape" or "Silver was just lucky"..
But what matters is that Pera had Silver open for anybody again he wanted to show him again, not talk about him.
Silver was open for a long time until Lazica challenged Pera with his Carlos dog. Lazica had the same ambitions for Carlos as Pera had for Silver, to make them famous. Unfortunately for Silver he got a cold a few days before the Match and Pera thought it was nothing serious. That time Pera was far from the truth, Silver lost that Match, Pera picked him up at 1 hour and 24 mins in very bad shape, anyway Silver completed a Game courtesy scratch.
Pera and his vet spent the whole night saving Silver's life and finally in the morning he pulled through. Pera knew he had got it wrong and he learnt from that loss. Of course the same dogmen now saying that Silver beat Jocker by pure luck since he lost.
For his next Lazica matched Carlos into the "killing machine" CH Black Mup who was a 4xw at that time. Black Mup silenced 3 of his 4 previous opponents, only Buffy 2xw from Hungary survived, the same Buffy later became a Champion.
To go on, this brutal killer Black Mup silenced Carlos in half an hour and won his GR CH title and was voted "dog of the year 1999" by Gameness magazine
His accomplishments are:
Won over Seki & Ljuban's Tito in 0:28 (r.i.p)
Won over Palir's Zoraja in 0:10 (r.i.p)
Won over Roland's Buffy 2xw in 0:30
Won over Atila kennels Pepito in 0:27 (r.i.p)
Won over Lazica's Carlos 1xw in 0:38 (r.i.p)
Everybody who knew Pera enough could imagine that he would have gone into GR CH Black Mup... and he did it, the contest was hooked up.
Once again Silver was forecast the loser by most against that black beast. I believe that this was one of the most crowded matches ever, 300 - 400 spectators came from all over Europe to see the show. Bets were called out between spectators, mostly on Black Mup, some people offered 2:1 and 3:1 odds against Silver, 99% of people believed there was no chance to beat a dog as good as GR CH Black Mup! And the contest was on...... Silver's toughest.
Both came out hard but Silver soon took it over by head holds keeping Black Mup away from him, Black Mup was persistently chasing for the Chest but Silver did not allow anything, after a while Silver slowed down a bit and finally Black Mup could get a chance to put some pressure on him. Silver took it all and did a strong comeback to go on ruling as before.
After 1 hour Black Mup was down and around 1 hour and a half it was his Turn to Scratch, his head was swollen and as big as a basketball, his eyes closed but he scratched back! It's apity he went one meter left from Silver and he did'nt get a hold within the count time. His Handler decided to try Black Mup once more right after that and he scratched into Silver!
Black Mup lost his GR CH title but was open again after that one with no takers.
Finally Silver got the credit he deserved after he beat the second Grand Champion in his career, everybody realised that Silver was a great Match dog.
After that sensationel win Pera decided to rest Silver for a long time before his next contest, most were frightened to meet him, only true dogfighters who lived for big challenges wanted to go into Silver. Next call Pera got was from Zinetti from Croatia who wanted to see his Mr Redbull 1xw against Silver. Mr Redbull had a high reputation after he beat the killing machine Atila kennels Altar in 1 hour 10 min. Later on Altar won B.I.S title on a 5 card convention. Zinetti knew if he won he had won alot, if he lost it had not been a shame to lose against a famous dog as Silver was.
Match was contracted for big money, unfortunately for Silver 2 weeks before the contest Zinetti called Pera and said that his dog had an accident and was badly injured, forfeit was paid and Match was off.
Some time after at Zelenovic show in Bijeljina Pera met Gladiator kennels from czech republic and they challenged Silver with their CH Bony. Pera accepted and the contract was done.
Peter from Gladiator kennels thought CH Bony with his head style and hard mouth would have been an uneasy oppenent for Silver. Editor of Yu Arena magazine named CH Bony to be Mohammed Ali because of the same defensive style.
On the show day CH Bony came in 250 grams (1/2 lbs) over the agreed weight and Pera took the forfiet. Anyway Match was on, also this one was a heavy crowded contest, lots of spectators arrived again to see Silver in action.
Silver acted the same as a computer, a robot, he got the better of it right away never allowing Bony to make his way. Silver rode Bony by the head for about 55 min when CH Bony stood the line in his corner. Silver completed his courtesy for his championship title.
CH Silver beat two Grand champions and one Champion on his way, there are only a few dog in the world with results like these. After that Pera decided it was time for Silver's retirement, there were a few reasons to do that:
1. His unique achievement in the arena
2. He was 5 years old
3. Most important, CH Silver was producing good
The litter Silver sired out of Pera's Tornado produced 4 Match dogs. Silver jr lost toZiks 1xw but everyone that saw him could appreciate that Silver jr was a Dead Game specimen. Nikita won in great fashion over Djurika from Hungary, Gary and Karmen won over Andrej from Slovakia.
After some months spent in the luxury of retirement Pera wished to Match CH Silver again because in Montenegro there was a new Grand Champion at Silver's weight and dogmen talked alot about him.. It was GR CH Sheyn.
GR CH Sheyn's results:
Won over K&G's Pancho in 1:25
Won over Knezevic's Vasja in 2:00
Won over Kocani & Bedem kennels Jocko 2xw in 2:37
Won over Ercegovic's Sarko in 0:57
Won over Francuz's Zip 2xw in 2:04
GR CH Sheyn was a dog blessed with the same style as CH Silver, plus he showed to be a deep Game dog in his long matches. Pera and Floyd contracted the Match for february 2004, but CH Silver got sick and Pera paid the forfeit. As soon as CH Silver was totally healed up a new date for the contest was set, 30 October 2004. Both handlers were nervous, only one would have been the winner and remembered as a winner.
As in all his matches very soon CH Silver took the lead by his known style and strengh, GR CH Sheyn did'nt get any chance and at 1 hour and 02 min Floyd picked him up. Sheyn proved that his Gameness was as big as any believed. CH Silver won over the third Grand Champion he met in his career!
What else is there to say about CH Silver ? He beat 3 GR CH and 1 CH, i dont think there is any other dog in the world with same quality of record. CH Silver is the best of the best !
Most breeders dream to have a dog with achievements as CH Silver has.
Finally now at 6 years of age CH Silver is retired to the love hotel...........
Officially Retired
02-26-2012, 01:49 PM
This is a sensational write-up R2L. I appreciate you sharing some of Europe's great Champions here. (Kinda pisses me off they got him killed at 9 years old--they did the same thing with Gr Ch Robert T here.)
Anyway, he sounds like a helluva head dog, wish I couldda seen him go :)
He sure was, and big credits to golden king for going against the greatest
Here's another one, sorrel/hammonds http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=103561 whp went against gr ch beka 6xw last month
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww135/ramamargarin/KID.jpg
bad dog
02-26-2012, 02:11 PM
dude do you guys dock your dogs' tails over there?
No, but maybe pera likes it.
Officially Retired
02-26-2012, 02:41 PM
No, but maybe pera likes it.
Wow, looking at it, it does seem like his tail is docked.
Curious, R2L, if you ever saw the Dendy dog go (or Silver for that matter)?
BTW, Gr Ch Robert T (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9965) had the same kind of record as Silver ... he beat two Grand Champions and two 4xWs (winning 9x total) ... and he, like Silver, finally lost to another Champion when he was matched at 9 years old.
Jack
Only on video Jack.
I think its a shame when they let dogs/legends! go at that age
Robert T's record is very impressive as well!
Officially Retired
02-26-2012, 03:02 PM
I don't know why people run them into the ground either. I can understand "trying" with a dog that age ... maybe ... but to let them go all the way out is wrong IMO.
Jack
dude do you guys dock your dogs' tails over there?
iv asked for you. all dogs born on his yard are docked and ears are cropped for match dogs. it seems to be his image, maybe some kind of superstition
some do it (not pera) because the weight difference of 200 gr,lol.
but it's not normal to do it around here, maybe a very few people from the balkan area.
skipper
02-27-2012, 07:02 AM
Anyway, he sounds like a helluva head dog, wish I couldda seen him go :)
Silvers battles where all filmed and I'm pretty sure they are on the net. He was an excellent ear dog, who was damn near unbeatable.
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 07:12 AM
Silvers battles where all filmed and I'm pretty sure they are on the net. He was an excellent ear dog, who was damn near unbeatable.
What is absolutely fascinating to me, as I am sure you know, but so too was Robert T an ear dog ... as well as his son Ch Robert T Jr. (who stopped four 4x winners from making Gr Ch) :grin:
I know a lot of people "hate" an ear dog, but I personally think a good ear dog is the single hardest dog to beat that there is ... and history has shown this by the nearly-identical "best records" of these dogs.
Jack
skipper
02-27-2012, 07:21 AM
I prefer Face/ear dogs over any other styles myself. Have seen many "mediocre" facedogs outpull and stop multiwinnig dogs in short order. Many dogs can't handle the stress and frustration having a nasty fucker in the head making it impossible to get things done. If you have a decent head dog it takes one helluva dog just to bear him.
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 07:35 AM
I prefer Face/ear dogs over any other styles myself. Have seen many "mediocre" facedogs outpull and stop multiwinnig dogs in short order. Many dogs can't handle the stress and frustration having a nasty fucker in the head making it impossible to get things done. If you have a decent head dog it takes one helluva dog just to bear him.
I agree with this 100%.
Just from a combat strategy alone, if a person thinks about it, "the head" of the other dog is where the weapons are. The dog that totally controls the head therefore totally controls the fight. And the dog whose head is being controlled is likewise utterly ineffective in what he's trying to do. Time and again I have seen what you've seen ... namely, some so-called "monster" of a biting dog run into a slick head dog ... and find himself not be able to do what he wants ... get frustrated ... and eventually stand the line suckin' air at some point.
And this story of Ch Silver that R2L posted is basically history repeating itself again :cool:
Jack
PS: You wouldn't happen to have a link to any of Ch Silver's deals would you?
skipper
02-27-2012, 07:41 AM
Found 2 links. One was password protected and the other was deleted. I will look some more, give you a pm if I find something. Maybe there are others on this board who has a link? Would be appreciated. As this dog is worth seeing more than once.
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 07:45 AM
Okay thanks.
http://video.mail.ru/mail/smart_knl/10/24.html
What is absolutely fascinating to me, as I am sure you know, but so too was Robert T an ear dog ... as well as his son Ch Robert T Jr. (who stopped four 4x winners from making Gr Ch) :grin:
I know a lot of people "hate" an ear dog, but I personally think a good ear dog is the single hardest dog to beat that there is ... and history has shown this by the nearly-identical "best records" of these dogs.
Jack
What happens when an ear dog faces a cropped dog. Would he still be interested that much on the same spot and are there any disadvantages for the cropped dogs when they face an ear dog. I remember something about the nerves or vessel being more exposed. Sorry for the off topic man, lol.
Indeed all video of Silver are recorded, they can be ordered at dvd but im trying to get some uploaded.
evolutionkennels
02-27-2012, 10:39 AM
I'll take a throat dog over an ear dog. Machobuck would purposely give that ear up so he could whip around, do a roll, and come up in the throat. This was not a lucky move, it was something he did in every roll and every contest. Needless to say.. He had HUGE ears and a HUGE head , along with the ability of Roger Federer on a tennis court, that would allow him to pull this move. I 100% believe that if he had his ears cut.. it would have been a huge detriment for him and his style. If your in the throat, there is NOTHING the other dog can do. NOTHING. Like a head dog, a throat dog controls the head, but he also takes away the hog's air. This is a genetic trait. Machobuck's dad 357 was a throat dog, his mom Macha was a throat dog, Machobuck was a throat dog. He is throwing the same thing
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 10:58 AM
What happens when an ear dog faces a cropped dog. Would he still be interested that much on the same spot and are there any disadvantages for the cropped dogs when they face an ear dog. I remember something about the nerves or vessel being more exposed. Sorry for the off topic man, lol.
Indeed all video of Silver are recorded, they can be ordered at dvd but im trying to get some uploaded.
What you are saying is true for the average ear dog ... who just grabs the ear itself and/or who stands directly in front of the other dog.
However a good ear dog doesn't just grab the ear, and he damned sure doesn't stand directly infront of a dog. Instead, he grabs the whole side of the head, from about 3" above the ear, to about 3" below it, and he absolutely clamps it all together like a vise, getting deep into the flesh of the head. When you face a dog like that, who is athletic and intelligent ... and who places himself perpendicular to the opponent ... especially if he has a HUGE, STRONG neck ... that opponent is never going to get there. I have watched it happen too many times to count.
Please understand that I make a distinction between "a dog on the ear" and a true Ear Specialist :idea:
Just think about the fact that a truly good ear dog can control a 200 lb animal with an ear hold, how easy it is for him to control something his own weight.
However, against an average dog "on the ear" I completely understand what you're getting at.
Jack
skipper
02-27-2012, 11:08 AM
I'll take a throat dog over an ear dog. Machobuck would purposely give that ear up so he could whip around, do a roll, and come up in the throat. This was not a lucky move, it was something he did in every roll and every contest. Needless to say.. He had HUGE ears and a HUGE head , along with the ability of Roger Federer on a tennis court, that would allow him to pull this move. I 100% believe that if he had his ears cut.. it would have been a huge detriment for him and his style. If your in the throat, there is NOTHING the other dog can do. NOTHING. Like a head dog, a throat dog controls the head, but he also takes away the hog's air. This is a genetic trait. Machobuck's dad 357 was a throat dog, his mom Macha was a throat dog, Machobuck was a throat dog. He is throwing the same thing
Machobuck was something out of the ordinary. With a dog of his caliber I'm not sure any style would have mattered. What I meant was in general. Most dogs aren't as good as ex Machobuck. This is purely out of my experience. In general a decent facedog will beat a decent throat dog 8 out of 10 times. Not letting him in the throat to begin with. The throat dog needs to use so much more of his energy chasing his special place. When a facedog is given his favorite spot more or less without effort. In a perfect world I like me a facedog that has the ability to finish in the throat when opportunity is given. But I agree with you. When the throat dog get in there, it's very hard to get him out. This is out of personal experience only. And i have not near as much as you have, maybe it's a pattern I have yet to discover.
Edited post: I see now that you talked specifically about ear dogs. What are your thought about a dog that goes for the muzzle?
I see what you're saying Jack, i was just asking myself whether they would miss the "lure" :D
That's very nice evo, actually using the ear to beat an ear dog. But after reading Jack's post that would only aply against an average ear dog>?
Did ya'll catch the link on page 2 ? ;)
skipper
02-27-2012, 11:42 AM
Did ya'll catch the link on page 2 ? ;)
Yes, thnx!
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 11:45 AM
I'll take a throat dog over an ear dog. Machobuck would purposely give that ear up so he could whip around, do a roll, and come up in the throat. This was not a lucky move, it was something he did in every roll and every contest. Needless to say.. He had HUGE ears and a HUGE head , along with the ability of Roger Federer on a tennis court, that would allow him to pull this move. I 100% believe that if he had his ears cut.. it would have been a huge detriment for him and his style. If your in the throat, there is NOTHING the other dog can do. NOTHING. Like a head dog, a throat dog controls the head, but he also takes away the hog's air. This is a genetic trait. Machobuck's dad 357 was a throat dog, his mom Macha was a throat dog, Machobuck was a throat dog. He is throwing the same thing
I agree with Skipper in the sense that an ace throat dog like Machobuck will beat an average (or even excellent) ear dog, for the reasons you just mentioned. As a matter of fact, that is what my own Poncho (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1033) lost to, was a throat dog in Ch Leonard (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=34195). In hindsight,this was for 3 reasons: 1) a throat dog is a tough style for any dog to whip, and the most dangerous style for an ear dog; 2) Poncho had never faced a truly killing throat dog before so he was unschooled against a style where you can't afford to make mistakes; and 3) Poncho was 4-lb under his best weight. Normally Poncho had a huge, thick neck and even at a fat 52 lb he had clopped-onto the heads of dogs he spotted up to 7 lbs of weight and never get bit ... but on that day, and at that low weight, he just was a wet noodle and couldn't hold Leonard out.
Anyway, later on in his life though, I used Poncho to school a devastating grandson of his ... with a heavy Boyles/Eli influence ... that had killed two, in :08 and :12 respectively, in the throat ... and Poncho was 7 years old and hadn't seen a pit in longer than this dog had been alive (2 years). Anyway, after a rough 4 minutes trying to extract this extremely fast young gun out of his throat, Poncho got on his ear ... the same way he used to in his prime and at his best weight (taking the whole site of that dog's head in his mouth, and getting perpendicular to him) ... and that dog never touched Poncho again. Poncho kept that dog's head jammed into the pit wall, and just casually walked the struggling young gun around the pit. It was in the hot California summer and the killer throat dog just kept driving and wasting his energy ... was picked up running hot (and not looking too happy) in a mere :20 ... with his owner mumbling, "Damn, nobody ever did Bucky (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=24017) like that ..." :lol: (That same Bucky dog later went on to stop a huge, rough Alligator dog owned by Desert Kennels in :58.)
But what you're saying is true, Evo, an extremely intelligent acrobatic throat dog like Machobuck is the most dangerous dog for an ear dog (or any other dog). The outcome all depends on the speed, style, aptitude, and experience of the dogs in question. For example, my own Silverback dog is a true finisher in the throat. Maybe he is not at the level of Machobuck, but he is at a good enough level so he's never been off his feet once in 9x down (including twice spotting 4 lb of weight) and every dog his weight has had to be rescued in under :10 or be DOA. He's a pretty good dog in that respect.
However, to show the reverse, good as Silverback is at DOAing a dog in the throat, his own roughest time was against an ear dog that I didn't think much of ... for five minutes Silverback literally couldn't do shit. It was when he was young and being schooled, but still he was temporarily at that dog's mercy. Of course, when he did get out the other side picked up 4 min later with Silverback (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=57819) in deep and their dog shitting in the [], but had Silverback been on an ACE ear dog (like Icon (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=98065)), I am not sure he could deal with it. Regarding my Icon dog, the old man who was part of the camp that controlled Gr Ch Robert T (who defeated 2 Grand Champions and two 4xWs on the ear), and who was the sole owner of Ch Robert T Jr. (who stopped four 4xWs from making Gr Ch on the ear) ... personally called my little Icon dog "Baby Robert T" ... which is about the highest compliment the little dog could have got, from the man who campained these dogs himself :cool:
Anyway, I am not sure (if they were at the same weight) that Silverback could do to Icon what he did to other dogs. But, by the same token, I am not sure Icon could hold out as fast, strong, and killing a throat dog as what Silverback is either. I think a truly ace throat dog versus a truly ace ear dog is the classic "match of all matches" ... with an outcome that could go either way, depending on the dogs involved, who had the most experience facing the other style, who was faster on the draw, physically stronger, etc.
In closing (and also in agreement with Skipper again), my own "Dream Dog" was my Stormbringer (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1041) dog, who was an ace ear dog with a tremendously-thick and strong neck and who was a straight killer in the throat. He would achieve absolute control of that head, with a freak body strength that was out of this world, and when he got in that throat it was Goodnight Irene :shocked:
Cheers & Great Topic!
Jack
Officially Retired
02-27-2012, 12:03 PM
http://video.mail.ru/mail/smart_knl/10/24.html
Thank you for this!
I will look at it when I get in the city, as out here in the country my service is too slow to watch streaming video.
Jack
AmberLamps
02-29-2012, 09:55 AM
Thank you for this!
I will look at it when I get in the city, as out here in the country my service is too slow to watch streaming video.
Jack
To appreciate just how good a dog Ch Silver was I think it's important to understand how truly badass Ch Blackmup was, if it's possible try to watch one of Ch Blackmups matches before you watch that Silver vs Blackmup video.
I remember when Ch Silver was alive and after seeing his matches on video, I was so impressed with his intelligence, athleticism and controlling head style, that I wanted to base my yard on Ch Silver... I contacted kennels that ran that blood, Shumadija kennels (and others that I can't remember the name of right now), with a view to buying dogs from this bloodline. However, the more research I did the less impressed I became, the dogs of this bloodline have to be the slowest scratching dogs i'v ever seen in my life. I personally would not feel confidant showing a dog from this bloodline under cajun rules.
Officially Retired
02-29-2012, 01:44 PM
To appreciate just how good a dog Ch Silver was I think it's important to understand how truly badass Ch Blackmup was, if it's possible try to watch one of Ch Blackmups matches before you watch that Silver vs Blackmup video.
I remember when Ch Silver was alive and after seeing his matches on video, I was so impressed with his intelligence, athleticism and controlling head style, that I wanted to base my yard on Ch Silver... I contacted kennels that ran that blood, Shumadija kennels (and others that I can't remember the name of right now), with a view to buying dogs from this bloodline. However, the more research I did the less impressed I became, the dogs of this bloodline have to be the slowest scratching dogs i'v ever seen in my life. I personally would not feel confidant showing a dog from this bloodline under cajun rules.
Interesting commentary MTK.
The Silver/Blackmup match sounds a lot like when the old man and his crew took the Robert T dog to face the Ch Gomez dog. A spectator there (who was friends with the old man) took him aside and said, "This is the baddest, killingest dog I've ever seen. If he bites you twice, you die. Don't bet too much." The old man thanked the guy for sincerely trying to warn him of this ace, and then asked him, "I have an extra ten thousand left to bet on Robert T, are you interested?"
Well, it was a helluva match, and pretty much everyone there thought the Gomez dog would have beat any dog alive ... except the greatest head dog ever known (in the USA anyway) ... and Robert T finally stopped Gomez in 3:10, on the ear. Gomez almost got his shot once, as he hit Robert T in the backend one time, and blood hit the ref, and it crippled Robert T, but he got Gomez out and never let him back in there again.
In the end, Gomez' entire head was swollen like a watermelon, and he staggered out at 3:10 and took the count, which was a shame because all the veterans I talk to said RARELY is a dog who bites that damned hard that damned game. True, he wasn't dead game, but to go 3:10 with a the Ace of all Ace Head dogs was something no other dog had ever done. When Gomez faced regular dogs they were rendered dead or disabled in minutes.
Anyway, just rambling on about this because what you said about Silver/Blackmup match reminded me of it :mrgreen:
Jack
AmberLamps
02-29-2012, 02:08 PM
Thanks for sharing that Jack, that made for some interesting reading.
Funny what you said about Gomez' head being swollen like a watermelon, as this is exactly what happened to Ch Blackmup, if I remember correctly when he's asked to scratch he scratches into a bulldog logo on the pit wall because he cant see Ch Silver.
It would be nice to hear your assessment of Ch Silver once you've seen the video, especially seeing as you've got a lifetimes experience of breeding intelligent, athletic head/ear dogs... Cheers
I believe black mup was 7 when he went in that match, must look it again cause for all i know he stopped.
i do would like to have some of that old sorrel blood, but im full :D
would go for some red jerry!!
AmberLamps
02-29-2012, 03:22 PM
He didn't stop, he made an attempt to scratch but couldn't find Ch Silver, he was given another chance to scratch, a courtesy, after he was cleaned up a little more and he went straight over to Silver. Blackmup was also open after that deal with nobody willing to go into him. There's no doubt Ch Silver beat a hell of a badass dog in Ch Blackmup.
R2L: I have to commend you on giving proper reference to where you got that story on Ch Silver, and for deleting the name of dino_cg. I'm the one who copied that story word for word out of Zinetti's book and put it on the net, when I did it I gave full reference and credit to Zinetti, his book, page numbers, the lot. Only to see someone going by Dino_cg remove those references, copy and paste it all over the net and add "........... by dino_cg"
Therefor taking all the credit as if he wrote the story himself, the prick!
Well done you :appl:
Never noticed that 2nd scratch, you're right he didnt see where he was heading to lmao
There is still some good black mup blood around in the balkan.
AmberLamps
02-29-2012, 03:44 PM
I haven't seen that video in a few years, think it's about time I sat back and watched it again.
CCCSleeper
04-19-2012, 02:29 PM
Here you go.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=34419 although only bottom side Sorrell.
No Quarter Kennel
04-20-2012, 06:56 PM
He sure was, and big credits to golden king for going against the greatest
Here's another one, sorrel/hammonds http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=103561 whp went against gr ch beka 6xw last month
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww135/ramamargarin/KID.jpg
The AC/DC's Diablo POR is one of the pups from the Park Son x Zackitha breeding that I'm currently basing everything around. Jack has done a great job of selling everyone on the idea of basing blood on litters, when you can, over individuals. I agree with him 100%. I bred this litter. I kept 3 and the other 3 were placed where I knew about them. Calley, the only female, I kept. Along with Skeeter and Scabber. Scabber and Skeeter were evaluated straight up. I kept what I considered the best dog in the litter, in Skeeter. I sold Scabber to Dmitry of AC/DC Kennels. He informed me after about a month, "I don't know about this Scabber." I did inquire and he informed me that the hog he was on had hit a bleeder so they ended it. I assured him, he payed for a good dog. He came back a month after that to inform me that Scabber had DOA'd "the best hog I've ever owned in 7 minutes". He renamed him Diablo and built an entire kennel and reputation off of that single dog. Worked great with the Limey stuff as well as many other lines. Just some more history of a dog in the pedigree of a great dog.
Officially Retired
04-21-2012, 05:00 PM
The AC/DC's Diablo POR is one of the pups from the Park Son x Zackitha breeding that I'm currently basing everything around. Jack has done a great job of selling everyone on the idea of basing blood on litters, when you can, over individuals. I agree with him 100%. I bred this litter. I kept 3 and the other 3 were placed where I knew about them. Calley, the only female, I kept. Along with Skeeter and Scabber. Scabber and Skeeter were evaluated straight up. I kept what I considered the best dog in the litter, in Skeeter. I sold Scabber to Dmitry of AC/DC Kennels. He informed me after about a month, "I don't know about this Scabber." I did inquire and he informed me that the hog he was on had hit a bleeder so they ended it. I assured him, he payed for a good dog. He came back a month after that to inform me that Scabber had DOA'd "the best hog I've ever owned in 7 minutes". He renamed him Diablo and built an entire kennel and reputation off of that single dog. Worked great with the Limey stuff as well as many other lines. Just some more history of a dog in the pedigree of a great dog.
That is what it's all about: seeing something that really hits the bullseye and then basing everything you do on "making more of it" :)
No Quarter Kennel
04-22-2012, 07:37 PM
I agree with you whole heartedly Jack. I wish I had known these things years ago. I haven't bred any dogs in around 6 years. That's actually real good. I was simply copying proven formulas and trying to repeat things already done. Now that I have a much better understanding of creating dogs and have the best I've fed left, although old, that's exactly what I intend to do. The litter that produced AC/DC's Diablo is the litter I am hanging my hat on. I guess in around 18-24 months, we'll know exactly how that pans out. ;)
Officially Retired
04-23-2012, 03:58 AM
I agree with you whole heartedly Jack. I wish I had known these things years ago. I haven't bred any dogs in around 6 years. That's actually real good. I was simply copying proven formulas and trying to repeat things already done. Now that I have a much better understanding of creating dogs and have the best I've fed left, although old, that's exactly what I intend to do. The litter that produced AC/DC's Diablo is the litter I am hanging my hat on. I guess in around 18-24 months, we'll know exactly how that pans out. ;)
You can't fail by following the extreme credo of "breed for whole litter quality/uniformity."
In fact, I would go so far as to say that (if there were two 10-pup litters) I would rather breed to the 1 dud out of a litter of 9 very good dogs than I would to breed to the 1 very good dog whose 9 other littermates were duds :idea:
If it is a breeding fact (and it is) that "you get what the average of your line is," mostly, then the key to breeding dogs is you have to keep your averages better than the next guy's. To do this, you cannot only look at "individuals," you have to look at the whole quotient.
To see how easy this is to prove true, just imagine the extreme reverse: if you bred to a rank cur individual dog (like a pomeranian), who had all rank cur littermates, and came from two rank cur parents (who themselves came out of all rank cur littermates) ... and if it played out like that as far back as the pedigree can go ... then how could you possibly get a game dog out of an animal with such 100% pure rank cur lineage? You can't. It is genetically-impossible because there simply are no genetics for gameness in that dog.
No go back to the positive side: if you breed to a legitimately-game, talented dog ... who comes from a whole litterful of game, talented dogs ... who came from two legitimately-game and talented parents (who themselves came from two litters UNIFORMLY-FULL of game/talented dogs) ... and if it played-out like that as far back as you can go in the pedigree ... and these dogs were from the same family ... AND you're breeding this dog to its close relative who comes from a similar background of uniform across-the-board genetic excellence, then you could have an accidental kennel breeding in your sleep and produce good dogs 8)
Because, if those are the true genetic realities behind them, how could they not produce uniform gameness? That is what they are genetically-programmed to do!
You always get what you breed for, and so those people who breed to "a" good dog (who comes from a so-so litter) are always dooming themselves to produce this in their own litters. They will always produce a lot of lousy dogs, with the "occasional good one," because that is what they're breeding to ... and so that is what they're breeding for: the occasional good dog out of a basically lousy litter. And so that is what they are going to get themselves.
Thus it only makes sense to be selective when you choose to breed, and to pass-up those "occasional good dogs," out of mostly-lousy litters, and instead breed to the good dogs out of truly good overall litters ... and then to stack the deck even more in your favor by breeding such dogs to their close relatives, who likewise come out of uniformly-excellent litters.
Jack
blastfrompast
05-21-2012, 08:32 PM
WOW!!! what a great thread thanks to everybody who took part in it, jack you really put the cherry on top (so to speak) with your last post.
NO Quarter Kennel good luck in your breedings
Officially Retired
05-22-2012, 06:08 AM
Glad to hear you enjoyed it :)
Enjoyed it too, and enjoyed it earlier after reading hard culling or genetic re direction. But after topic #1001 on game-dog.com (named "would you breed to a well bred curr") about culling where at least 90 % of the people says they would NEVER bred to a curr yet they would breed to that one good dog out of a whole shit litter, i wonder.. where are all of those people here?
No Quarter Kennel
05-22-2012, 10:18 AM
I think the very nature that led to the structure of this board dictates a more intelligent clientel and a greater degree of understanding. Kudos to Jack for that and Kudos to all board members who strive to adhere to the standard that has been established.
STORMY
05-22-2012, 04:21 PM
in early 90's sorrell dog were on the up and running bloodline to have seems.yellow 2 blood last one that i know of that runs it tight would be get down knls pure yellow (waccamaw knls)he's on here often.
Stonewall get down got his blood from me stormy i still have some of the tightest
yellow 2 blood to be had i don't sell i usually give them to close buddys
when i do breed
Officially Retired
05-22-2012, 06:00 PM
Enjoyed it too, and enjoyed it earlier after reading hard culling or genetic re direction. But after topic #1001 on game-dog.com (named "would you breed to a well bred curr") about culling where at least 90 % of the people says they would NEVER bred to a curr yet they would breed to that one good dog out of a whole shit litter, i wonder.. where are all of those people here?
I think the very nature that led to the structure of this board dictates a more intelligent clientel and a greater degree of understanding. Kudos to Jack for that and Kudos to all board members who strive to adhere to the standard that has been established.
Thanks R2L and No Quarter.
I think the whole idea of "game or cur" is an insane idea. Like saying "mouth or no mouth," or "air or no air." The truth is, dogs have degrees of gameness, degrees of mouth, degrees of stamina, etc., and all we as breeders try to do is to breed to dogs who have a HIGH degree of all these things.
Most dogs we breed to do NOT have "100% killer mouth," or "100% tireless stamina," or "100% dead gameness" under any and all circumstances ... and yet most of the dogs we breed to DO have a high degree of all of these things when compared to other dogs. It's the same thing with ability. There are almost zero "100% perfect athletes," but hopefully we're all breeding to dogs with a high degree of athleticism.
I agree with most people that gameness is the #1 trait to breed for, and I don't want to breed to any dog that looks or acts like it's going to quit (let alone to any dog that has quit), but if some dog had a HUGE degree of ability, stamina, and enough gameness to go down to the very bitter end against world class opposition ... and it wasn't quite 100% game ... I sure would still think a lot of that dog, because most dogs people are breeding to at home would not have gone that far.
Sure, maybe in some ways it's better to breed to the dog that whipped him ... but (take the original Ch Nico for example) not always. Gr Ch IBM may have outlasted Ch Nico, and Ch Nico might not have been 100% DG, but looking at their production records, I would rather breed to Ch Nico any day than Gr Ch IBM.
So there is a lot more to it than just "game or cur" ...
Jack
FrostyPaws
05-22-2012, 07:42 PM
There is only one way I'd breed to a dog that quit, and it is if that dog came from a litter of what I call honest dogs. Since that term means different things for all of us, I just leave it at that. And if those honest dogs are from an honest family of dogs, then yes, I'd breed to that dog that quit as opposed to the super game dog from, lets say, a Zebo family of dogs. Now, some things have to be taken into context. If the dog that quit was a rank dog, then I'm still not going to do that breeding. The dog that quit is going to have to have a reason why it quit; it can't just quit on top like a junky jalopy.
One must always remember there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.
Officially Retired
05-22-2012, 07:51 PM
That is a good point: absolutely, percentages of good dogs in the litter (as well as how deep the offending dog was willing to go before he had enough) are definitely deciding factors.
For example, Hollingsworth's Bodine (after repeated ass drubbings and multiple hard tests) finally did quit, FAT, off the chain ... in nearly 2 hours when put uphill against a better dog in the summer ... but he had shown so game, so many times before, as had his littermates ... and he was in such poor shape when he was done ... that he was put back on the chain by his owner (Butch Davis), who bet a guy that "no one" could make Bodine quit.
The simple truth is no dog can overcome enough human stupidity leveled against it ...
Jack
pig mad
10-04-2012, 03:46 AM
Is there any winning over there anymore or anyone working them anymore?
pera is still active with the sorrel blood in the balkan.
http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=103561
contracted vs mak's ch mrki
this line is still winning in europe too
http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=183657
Officially Retired
10-04-2012, 06:56 AM
Is there any winning over there anymore or anyone working them anymore?
Thought I would merge your thread with this one, Pig Mad, as there was quite a bit written here :)
Jack
Milky
10-04-2012, 07:51 AM
pera is still active with the sorrel blood in the balkan.
http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=103561
contracted vs mak's ch mrki
That will be a intresting one for sure. Those MAK-dogs seem to be very hard biting and rough dogs.
prairiedog
10-04-2012, 09:49 AM
Just a bit of trivia for you fellas: In Silver's second show it took the Carlos dog 1:04 to win, later Black Mup faced Carlos and finished him in :30. I've also heard that Pera conditioned Silver for upwards of six months for the show, and that Toske was so confident in Black Mup that he only put two weeks of work in the dog. Could be excuses after the fact, I'm just intimating details that were shared with me.
pig mad
10-04-2012, 11:49 AM
Thought I would merge your thread with this one, Pig Mad, as there was quite a bit written here :)
Jack
Thanks...
http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=103561
DabridgePit
03-17-2013, 06:08 PM
Love the Sorrell blood that i run, have it outcrossed an not.. We just bred to realy good dogs on the sorrell blood an cant wait