Brood stock

[RFK]

Historically bro x sis breedings are regarded as brood stock which is understandable nething how only ch 357 turned out to be any good in that department my question is I see Alot of Pple once they do that type of breeding to create their brood stock than they go and outcross it to some complete other bloodline. What's the point I like to tighten up on what I have and than hit it with a cousin for instance I hit my machobuck blood with my shybaby Gaston blood it all goes back to buck x dasiey next I want to hit my yard with some queen of hearts bull blood if I can get my hands on it. I feel by staying within the same family but different strains allows me to breed tight and still get show dogs

[Officially Retired]

Historically bro x sis breedings are regarded as brood stock which is understandable nething how only ch 357 turned out to be any good in that department my question is I see Alot of Pple once they do that type of breeding to create their brood stock than they go and outcross it to some complete other bloodline. What's the point I like to tighten up on what I have and than hit it with a cousin for instance I hit my machobuck blood with my shybaby Gaston blood it all goes back to buck x dasiey next I want to hit my yard with some queen of hearts bull blood if I can get my hands on it. I feel by staying within the same family but different strains allows me to breed tight and still get show dogs

Excellent post and thread topic.

This is a subject that's bigger than Texas, speaking of which ol' Maurice Carver himself said this about brother/sister breedings: "They'll take ya 3 steps forward and 2 steps back," so even Maurice Carver didn't like them too much. But yet, as you mention, here we have dogs like Ch 357 ROM who is both a performance dog as well as a Register of Merit producer, right out of a brother/sister breeding.

The question thus becomes, was 357 just "an exception" ... and are brother/sister breedings basically lousy breedings (with "a few exceptions")? I can give you my experience with brother/sister breedings, which is this: I bred Poncho to Missy in 1997, and that was the only time I ever did a brother/sister breeding ... and I got very mixed results: Phoenix was a dud male (durable, but stupid and no ability). Primo was a rough, game, durable male with so-so ability. Little Kim was a beautiful, but cold bitch. Misty was never touched, but had bad eyes, and a bad knee. While Diamond (not to be confused with Diamond Girl) was an A-caliber head dog, with great ability, stamina, lightning-quick reflexes, and super-smart. (There were 3 other puppies who died, so I don't know how they'd turn out.)

That was the only time I made a brother/sister breeding ... with my best two dogs ... but I personally didn't like the overall yield ... though there was 1 truly excellent dog in the litter. In hindsight, I should have kept that 1 truly excellent bitch and gone forward with her. Moreover, there are other brother/sister breedings I wish I would have made (U-Nhan-Rha/Twilight & Icon/BrickHouse head that list). In other words, as I have had the benefit of many years of hindsight, I think people "cut bait" too quickly on the idea of inbreedings, in 3 ways:

1) They assume the dogs won't be able to brawl, but some inbred dogs can absolutely kick ass;
2) They assume because there are some duds, that this means they should not do the breeding again, when the truth is they should cull the weak and proceed forward with the purified, super-clean animals;
3) They assume that, because one inbreeding didn't work that this means "they all" won't work, when nothing could be further from the truth!
Regarding the way you tend to breed, which I term "loose linebreeding" (Stone City dogs to Gaston dogs, etc.) is a very effective way to both keep some genetic uniformity (and, in this case, overall 'pattern' uniformity also), while still benefitting from the vigor of "difference" in the two respective lines. Just realize that you can also get fully-capable match dogs through highly-inbred animals, if the right selection is made.

For example, Ch Red Bull (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=210878) was one of the very tightest-bred dogs I have ever put together in my life. So, as someone who has "bred tight" for many years, I can tell you for sure that (yes) some of them come out unable to compete ... but when you make good selections (and/or select the best from the litters) ... you can get dogs that are as good or better than any outcrossed dog.

Don't forget that devastating dogs like Gr Ch Zebo ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=7), Gr Ch Banjo (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=90)/Gr Ch BB Red (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=5358), etc. were all highly line-/inbred animals :mrgreen:

Jack


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[AL Clown]

I really do not see a point in doing a bro x sis breeding unless they are they only two left to continue a line. However, if said dogs start as a cross, I do not see that breeding as brood stock or tightening a line as the result pups would still be 50/50 or whatever precentage cross they sire and dam were intially.

Linebreeding on related dogs and occasional inbreeding seems to be the better choice. But as with anything else there is always factors involved and maybe a bro x sis breeding would be necessary as stated above.

[Officially Retired]

I really do not see a point in doing a bro x sis breeding unless they are they only two left to continue a line. However, if said dogs start as a cross, I do not see that breeding as brood stock or tightening a line as the result pups would still be 50/50 or whatever precentage cross they sire and dam were intially.
Linebreeding on related dogs and occasional inbreeding seems to be the better choice. But as with anything else there is always factors involved and maybe a bro x sis breeding would be necessary as stated above.

I agree with you Al Clown. In fact, I agree with you so much that (as I mentioned) I only did this myself once in 23 years breeding dogs. And, even with the benefit of hindsight, I still only have maybe 2-4 other pairs of siblings (out of all the dogs I have had over the years), to where I wished I would have done made other bro/sis breedings. The rest I am glad I didn't.

So your point is well taken: brother/sister breedins are NOT a normal way to breed, and are rarely the best way to breed; brother/sister breedings should be done on a very limited basis, if at all, and then only because the dogs involved are so strong genetically that they might actually produce match dogs by doing so.

I agree that too many people breed brother/sister for no other reason than because they "bought the pair" as pups, and are too lazy to go make better choices, so they breed two duds that are in their back yards.

Jack



.

[AL Clown]

To piggy-back on your last statement...I think people in general breed dogs for the wrong reason and more often excessively to much. I have own these dogs since 1983 and I did not make my 1st breeding until the late 90s. The reason being I did not feel I had enough knowledge about the breed to properly breed these animals. Now that I feel I have some knowledge of the breed and have had a chance to be involved in every aspect of this breed, I still feel unless you are solely a breeder and producing quality animals on a consistent basis then you should only breed when it is necessary to your program.

Alot of times I see people with 4 or more breedings available forsale every 6 months. I sit back and shake my head, because when you call and talk to these breeders they can barely tell you the name of the dogs that make up the 1st two gen. It is very rare they can tell you anything about any of the dogs that make up these great pups pedigree.

[Officially Retired]

To piggy-back on your last statement...I think people in general breed dogs for the wrong reason and more often excessively to much. I have own these dogs since 1983 and I did not make my 1st breeding until the late 90s. The reason being I did not feel I had enough knowledge about the breed to properly breed these animals. Now that I feel I have some knowledge of the breed and have had a chance to be involved in every aspect of this breed, I still feel unless you are solely a breeder and producing quality animals on a consistent basis then you should only breed when it is necessary to your program.

Alot of times I see people with 4 or more breedings available forsale every 6 months. I sit back and shake my head, because when you call and talk to these breeders they can barely tell you the name of the dogs that make up the 1st two gen. It is very rare they can tell you anything about any of the dogs that make up these great pups pedigree.

Who can argue with that? It's true.


.

[sam i am]

WOW GREAT STUFF

[HOMEWORK215]

people do breeding just because they have these dogs it's because of that reason why the breed is under the microscope now you have guy putting these dogs in the wrong peoples hands they in turn do (WELL) you know. I've had my dogs for a little bit but I've only done 4 breeding my mistake was in thanking that people would appriate good dog. (WRONG) but i love tight breed stock i have a bitch that off of a bro/sis breeding her first breeding was line breed back to her uncle the result from this was 4 pups that were acting like full grown hounds i keep 3 out of the 4 but lost one but it can work if you have the time to wait to see what you have

[STONEWALL]

Great topic. I've bred brother/sister on several occaisions. It's not something that the casual breeder should undertake. I've made every kind of inbreeding imaginable. I've had good and bad results with both. When I wanted to preserve and purify my line I inbred. Now all of my dogs are inbred and related to one another so no matter which dogs I pair up they are inbred and related. I have no need to cross them and I dred the day that I do. Hopefully I will never have to.

[Officially Retired]

I have experimented with outcrosses ... and certain inbred dogs I have bred have "needed" an outcross ... but the overall best dogs I have ever fed were (and are) always the high end of my line- and inbred animals.

Jack

[gilamonster]

I was told by L.D that the only time you should do a bro/sis breeding is if both the parents are no longer around, and ONLY if the Whole litter was game. Again it comes down to ones own experiences and results of said breedings. We all know that one of the main purposes of inbreeding is to keep or capture the quality caricture we are seeking to preserve. So I could see why L said what he said. What the late great Mr. Carver was trying to touch on I THINK with his statement is you will always get both the good and bad traits in lightning fast speed. If you are not extremely carefull, brutaly honest, and ruthless you can dig yoursellf a hole by locking in the bad traits just as easy as the good. This is were the study of genetics is imperative.JMO

[Officially Retired]

Good post, which pretty much sums it up: inbreeding is merely genetic magnification.

And, in using this magnification tool we call "inbreeding," you will increase whatever traits you have noticeably. The trouble with using this tool is oftentimes this means you magnify the bad traits! For example, using slightly cow-hocked (related) parents, who are still competitive, might produce an absolutely bowl-legged undershot offspring that can't whip a puppy. Or, in another example, using slightly short-winded parents inbred together might produce an offspring that can't run around its chain spot without getting heat stroke. Therefore, since most people use dogs that aren't really very good to begin with, when they inbreed on them that get "all crap" ... and so they blame "the inbreeding" rather than their poor selection of "which dogs" to plug-into the formula!

Because, so too can you inbreed one super-athletic, structurally-wonderful dog back to its equally-wonderful, athletically-exceptional relative and get just a fantastic litter of all-wonderful, fast, super-athletic animals ... IF you plug the right dogs into the inbreeding equation ;)

It all boils down to SELECTION.

Jack

PS: If you make a super-tight inbreeding off of two excellent dogs, and some of them come out lousy, while most of them come out excellent ... the excellent dogs have essentially been "purified" of the bad traits and are what you carry your line forward with.

[STONEWALL]

"It all boils down to SELECTION.

Jack"

Bottom line.

[apeman]

bump up for 2020...

[Frank43]

good post. Let me see if I can use spacing and punctuation as was recommended with me.

I’m considering a brother sister for the following reason. To lock in traits. The dogs I’m thinking about are still young. Like 357 similar cross different dogs. Rbj bt.

These are the reasons I would do it. One little female out of the litter has the rbj fire, work ethic, athleticism from somewhere, brains, she uses her head when some loose it. She even looks like Butkus to me. She has a brother I have mentioned earlier. Super smart, a little later starter, early indications that he can close his jaws, he keeps his head when it’s rough, he has the rbj wind. His problem is a more narrow backend. Maybe the backend improves with age. I’m expecting it to be one of the things that presents in the pups. It’s something I would be looking to sort through early. I found out another sister with a better backend may also be able to close it. I still swear I hear her wheezing when she was born. I haven’t worked her so I don’t know what her exercise tolerance is All three got some bolio tombstone smarts. These are some things to consider. Hopefully I could get brood female out of this.

Time will tell. I’m waiting awhile. One of the common threads of people that get jammed up is they end up with too many dogs not fed and cared for correctly.

I look at gaston’s foundation and 357 what he produced. Trying to lock in the positives of both bloodlines seems like it’s worth the risk. Then as you mentioned. Cross to a related dog. Machobear semen, little john junior, puma, rocky redman. There are some pockets of Gaston blood out there.

[Devildog5811]

I completely agree, successful inbreeding is all about rigorous selection, and starting with the best possible genetic material. I always remember the story of Cleopatra when it comes to inbreeding. In genetics you can't breed out unwanted traits you can only suppress them(make them recessive) , sooner or later if you don't select properly they will come out .Cleopatra was supposedly the most beautiful woman in the world, she was a product of incest, her brother was the complete opposite he was born with physical deformities. Great read .

[ROCK-MACHINE]

A great little thread, I recommend reading Animal Breeding Plans by Jay Laurence Lush, it can be a bit heavy at times but is a fascinating read just the same.

https://ia801602.us.archive.org/24/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.207427/2015.207427.Animal-Breeding.pdf

[Frank43]

That’s some damn good reading. It’s crazy how stuff like that was written 100 years ago and it’s still true.

Here’s a judgement question. I had a foundation male get lost unexpectedly. He was a solid dog. He threw some of the traits he had with consistency to the litter he had. The breeding was basically an outcross breeding. My plan was to breed towards the middle of the two and towards the mother. He threw strength, work ethic, gameness.

Here is the management decision. I have his daughters and sons. One daughter is like him with some brains of his mother. One son seemed to be dumb game like him. Another fiery and has some talent. The other I kept is more towards the mother. I can do some brother sister breedings with some of sons. Pull offspring that were like him.

I could try to recreate him. He was 1/4 Hollingsworth bull 1/4 tant 1/2 Waccamaw. He has a brother I could breed to. Half Hollingsworth bull half tant. Use him straight. Or what I’m leaning towards doing. Get a cottingham female. Breed her to his uncle. Hopefully get the work ethic drive and strength get some more athleticism and smaller dogs. Try to buy the mom and breed to the uncle or make a deal to breed the uncle back to him. He threw some well built strong af kids. He couldn’t keep teeth in his mouth and could be stupid hot. The female he bred is half cold and smart with finish so they worked well.

Breeders what would you do. This is the stuff that isn’t in the books. I had some breeding plans. Honestly I was planning to back cross into kids of his kids to put fire in them.

[Frank43]

I go back and re-read these things a lot. There is a lot of wisdom in them. Its hard to find people to talk to about some of this. On the topic of brother sister. ch 357 was a brother sister breeding . It was off an outcross of 100% unrelated animals. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=329

Brother and sister in types of inbreedings is the highest.

Why did it work in this case and so so in the poncho/missy litter. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=224

the coefficients are I think around 9 percent on the inbreeding calculator. I wonder if functionally its higher because most of them go back to Patrick breedings of bolio and tombstone. Ch Butkus had a coefficient of .56% at 10 generations. If I was trying to lock in traits in two different lines that found their way into individuals your highest chance to get one in an individual is a brother sister.

Opinons?

[bossman311]

The Dogs will tell you which ones to breed to based on performance even when sticking within your own family of dogs.

But even with that being said there are age old breeding schemes and patterns that will allow you to know without a doubt how to keep certain traits while introducing new ones.

Brother and sister's breeding IMO lose more than 1/2 brother and sisters.
You may double the good but you will tripple the bad.
That's a given.

It's more to getting a brood dog just becuase you bred a brother and sister or any other inbred type.
People use the term brood over foundation these dyas it seems .

It's keeping your foundation with vigor that will keep them going more than jamming them up to try and take short cuts.

A well bred line bred dog using the 1/2 brother and sister method over and over aka using a pattern, can and will give you better results than just brother and sister for the sake of brother and sister.

Years ago a well known dogman and I had a convo and both agreed in most cases allot or just too lazy to take the time needed to put it together and just do the brother and sister than line breeding the 1/2 brother and sister.
Those take more planing and time to see what 1/2 sibling worhs the best with each other.
What's and top and what's on bottom makes a big difference even with 1/2 siblings.

Breedings are trial and erra but that still does not mean just breed 2 dogs together because the are related.
I bred plenty of dogs to know it's better in the long run to keep the hybred vigor from line breeding than it is just to assume the traits will be .

It's maintaining the base /foundation that will keep them going more than just trying short cuts and breeding brother and sister.

It does not matter what few full brother and sisters breeding did good it's more that did not.
don't need to have lesser dogs as broods.

It's about keeping you good key dog on both top and bottom of each dog in each generation when breeding with vigor as much as possible.

It's and easy to read pedigree with a clear and distinct breeding scheeme(pattern) and in all of these generations on 1 full brother and sister (Hicks Mason) was done in this dogs history becuase his grand parents were not bred tight .

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=88556

[Frank43]

I'm happy with where I am. So far dogs have produced are doing well. I'm never really satisfied. But when people have peeped at dogs you gave them and they are tucked away for safe keeping. That means something. If they sucked they would say. I picked up two brood dogs this past week. Went to a name in the business. I said I was going to stay away From Eli dogs. You go to the yard you talk to the man. You think. He has produced more champions than anyone else. You do like his breeding strategies even though you would do it with another blood line. He shows you this dog that is 17 years old. Coefficient of inbreeding is prob 40 on him. 17. You see a son of his. He looks you in the eye and you're like. "That's a mf man right there I need to work him in. Hanna is a damn dog. Indian sonny did some shit with Eli bolio. This is more Eli Hollingsworth with a bolio style and finish. That could make some mf dogs. I guess I lied. I'm buying an eli dog. To take to Hanna. Gr ch vengeance was damn dog. Eli bolio Indian sonny blood. I guess there is about to be a new wing to the sledge dog family. Some black, seal, red chocolate murdering mf. Came back with some titere blood. I liked that little pup out the litter. He acted like he had some sense in tractor supply. Then went back to acting crazy when I put him in the grass. That doesn't mean much to people. It means something to me. Start playing with him. I notice something with him.

There's something called a wet blanket in Jiu jitsu. I used to do it. You fight for a important position. Once you get there you find a way to lean on whoever. I used to pass guard. Get to side control. Plus or minus slide to mount. The whole time they are occupied dodge submission attempts. You get mount. Start fishing for collar chokes. He fights and turns into you. You take his back. Mata Leon "kill the lion" naked choke. Back and forth he runs. Until at some point he tires physically or breaks. He wants you to kill him. Wet shirt. All the white you aren't really working or straining. Taking what he's giving you and waiting to finish.

That titere pup is a wet blanket. Titere prob was. I can fell how he wrestles against my arm. His weight is there then it isn't. The pup is triple bred on titere.

Plan for those two pups is to take to Hanna. Hanna is my strongest athlete, smart, bolio killer. Named the titere pup Solomon. Solomon x Hanna prob make me some smart talented killers.

Martel x Hanna prob me more power less cat and mouse.

I gotta call him and go back for the female littermate. Be good for my abner dog. He's a young monster.

[Frank43]

I guess I look at it like music or something. Are you memorizing licks or using notes to speak what needs to come out. I haven't done a brother sister. I would do any breeding at any time depending on what I need. When you do them you need to know why snd what the downsides are. I could do a brother sister off my stoic dog to his sister lyudmila. They are outcross dogs. They share Hollingsworth bull as a common ancestor. I think the brother sister worked with 357 because they were an outcross off two completely unrelated lines. Vice grip did one. Said he had good dogs and some genetic problems.

The tight breedings I did exposed some palate issues. Gap over and underbite. My line was traditionally best to best loose line breeding. There are probably a lot of deleterious recessives in there. Gap under and over bites are natures way of culling. If a female can't cut the cord the pup may die maybe her.

I don't know what the next styles of breeding I'll do. I tightened up on a few individuals snd they are vigorous. I have been looking for complimentary outcrosses. Next phase will be rolling these back in mother son father daughter. Half brother sister.

I would still like to thank titan and garner for the dogs they gave me. The shit you go through with these dogs. It's like giving your kids to someone. Crews too but I have to go back and replace a pup. I hear you on the dogs letting toy know what breedings you. Need. It's crazy how one will make you rearrange your long term plan.

As for the brother sister thing. You do them for a reason. I guess you have to do it like a man and deal with the consequences. When I triple bred Abner. I needed a male Clo. Plus I wanted more machobuck Hollingsworth. I needed it to throw. I triple crossed it. Sound dogs. Good temperaments. Good maternal characteristics out of the mom. She had six pups. I watched the birth number go from 11 or 13 to six. She laid on three. One had a gap underbite. Abner was outstanding to me and so damn dominant. Caleb was a good dog. I had to get him away from Abner. When you weigh a stud that produces vs cold or pup that don't make grade. I would rather breed to higher percentages. I know that Abner has less chance to throw bad underbites and his structure and Temprament is solid.

For me the garners titere cross is needed. New genes and vigor. Garner has triple bred pups out of titere and they are dropping 13 still. Titere was damn near scatterbred. He's bringing some uniformity to it. I'm good with 6-8 well bred uniform pups.

So for me. 50/50 Hollingsworth titere are prob up. Maybe some father son mother daughter after that. I can post the peds. Damn I'm not wanting to post them as much much now. I'm in the lab. Maybe a rational strategy being put out is better for the breed. I have to tell myself. You can't control everything and hopefully it will come back to you.

I'll post some of those peds later.

[CYJ]

There was a dog man that started out with individual proven dogs. Had some Truett Red Boy/Joe Beal-Red Boy-Jocko- Garner's Chinaman and my Face and my Winchester-Truett's Missy (Creel/ Mayfield/Davis's Boomerang bloodline and a good bit of Boudreaux stock as well.

After some heavy culling and certain dogs that had won proven dog shows etc. He started blending these dogs and culling as he went. These dogs over time were well built/big boned and long bodies.

He could brother/sister breed these dogs and dogs remained well built/powerful dogs with no physical faults and no barrel and root chewers etc. Solid calm dogs. He brother/sister bred on more than one occasion and then would line bred off best stud dog for a while.

Was a very successful dog man and was hard to beat. So, IMHO however you start out. Start with good bloodlines and use only proven dogs. Dogs well-built and calm. To me it is a waste of money to try and build a yard around buying puppies.

Try to find an older well-built or proven or proven producer, calm female dog that can still have pups. Then study its pedigree really well. Especially with the pedigree tools we have on this site. Pick a well-built proven stud dog that has at least a third of the pedigree of dogs as the female has.

Breed them and in a year or so. You will see how well it is going. With that said. If you get that certain feeling about breeding that female to a certain stud dog, you like. Go for it, gut feelings can be right.

Another dog man I knew long ago. Had some dogs bred off my Winchester x Sally female and His Loposay's Bullet II female. Later years I visited him, and he had some nice dogs.

I saw two dogs that he said one had got off the chain being an eight pound or so bigger dog and got on the smaller dog that was on its chain. Both dogs got wreaked and both dogs got veterinarian care.

The smaller dog was really well bred and was jet black. I asked him, you are telling me that little fellow on the chain did all that to that bigger dog. He said yes. The bigger dog was well bred and no slouch.

I looked at that well-built little man, solid black/black eyes. I told him I got a real gut feeling about that dog. While you can, breed him to your best bitches as they come in heat. He did and overtime got some good dogs. Get a powerful gut feeling sometimes. Go for it, might get some show time winners. LOL Cheers

[EWO]

First and foremost, I am not a breeder.

I think before one looks at the relationship between two dogs is to look at the traits of the two and move forward from there.

I have never done a breeding with preservation in mind or looking to make dogs to make dogs.

The closest relationship I have done is half-brother-half-sister breeding.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=47590

This male Hatchet is a pretty good dog. When he peaked I got sick and got rid of just about all the dogs. I kept him and one or two more. If I had not gotten sick he would have went to the show. I feel like he had just as good chance as any to post some W's.

Mims Bonnie was off Jiggs and Lucky. The percentage of game dogs produced by Lucky is out of this world. Jiggs was a straight Red Boy male but threw rough, durable hard mouthed head dogs. Bonnie had multiple winners in her litter. Her brother People's Joker was a heck of a dog. She had a winning sister in CoalField Kennels Mercy. When bred to Spiffy, Lucky threw Mims/DTA's CH Charlie (4XW). Charlie is the best, most complete dog I have ever seen. The above dog is Spiffy/Lucky and Jiggs/Lucky both top and bottom.

On the top Holly (Spiffy-Lucky) was outcrossed to a Garner/Kronos male. Both dogs were offensive minded head dogs. On the bottom Holly was bred to Chingaling, which was a Mims Snooty (Red Boy) to some of the old Molly Bee-Snooty blood back to Holly. (Snooty being the binder).

The best male from the cross on the top was Doorstop. Six out of seven in this litter were matched. Doorstop was not because he wrecked his teeth early. (Hard to say he was the best when others were matched but he was rougher and harder mouthed). Doorstop was bred to Bonnie.

On the bottom Purepower's CH. Skull (4XW) who went over 2 hours twice, both times due to poor preparation. He did it on his own with heart and desire. Skull was bred to Bonnie to get Pancake.

From there, Stump was bred to Pancake. Stump had a winning brother. I would have bred to him but he went far away. Pancake looked like Bonnie had spit her out and carried every trait Bonnie had from a puppy to an adult. When Pancake was a pretty good female and when she was ready to ride Mims Bonnie passed on. Her owner decided to keep her for breeding. Stump was born without a back foot and was placed as a pet. He was not pet material and when looked at he was a very talented dog. With traction, he could have rode up and down the road.

Thus Hatchet is the result of 1/2 bro-sis breeding when our group owned or seen just about all the dogs in the six generation pedigree.

Most every dog was offensive minded head dogs so even when the outcrosses happened, the litters had a lot of offensive minded head dogs.

We bred for those traits, even on the out crosses, the traits were the same.

I think it is more about selection than relation.

But again, I am no breeder.

EWO

[brightlight168]

First and foremost, I am not a breeder.

I think before one looks at the relationship between two dogs is to look at the traits of the two and move forward from there.

I have never done a breeding with preservation in mind or looking to make dogs to make dogs.

The closest relationship I have done is half-brother-half-sister breeding.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=47590

This male Hatchet is a pretty good dog. When he peaked I got sick and got rid of just about all the dogs. I kept him and one or two more. If I had not gotten sick he would have went to the show. I feel like he had just as good chance as any to post some W's.

Mims Bonnie was off Jiggs and Lucky. The percentage of game dogs produced by Lucky is out of this world. Jiggs was a straight Red Boy male but threw rough, durable hard mouthed head dogs. Bonnie had multiple winners in her litter. Her brother People's Joker was a heck of a dog. She had a winning sister in CoalField Kennels Mercy. When bred to Spiffy, Lucky threw Mims/DTA's CH Charlie (4XW). Charlie is the best, most complete dog I have ever seen. The above dog is Spiffy/Lucky and Jiggs/Lucky both top and bottom.

On the top Holly (Spiffy-Lucky) was outcrossed to a Garner/Kronos male. Both dogs were offensive minded head dogs. On the bottom Holly was bred to Chingaling, which was a Mims Snooty (Red Boy) to some of the old Molly Bee-Snooty blood back to Holly. (Snooty being the binder).

The best male from the cross on the top was Doorstop. Six out of seven in this litter were matched. Doorstop was not because he wrecked his teeth early. (Hard to say he was the best when others were matched but he was rougher and harder mouthed). Doorstop was bred to Bonnie.

On the bottom Purepower's CH. Skull (4XW) who went over 2 hours twice, both times due to poor preparation. He did it on his own with heart and desire. Skull was bred to Bonnie to get Pancake.

From there, Stump was bred to Pancake. Stump had a winning brother. I would have bred to him but he went far away. Pancake looked like Bonnie had spit her out and carried every trait Bonnie had from a puppy to an adult. When Pancake was a pretty good female and when she was ready to ride Mims Bonnie passed on. Her owner decided to keep her for breeding. Stump was born without a back foot and was placed as a pet. He was not pet material and when looked at he was a very talented dog. With traction, he could have rode up and down the road.

Thus Hatchet is the result of 1/2 bro-sis breeding when our group owned or seen just about all the dogs in the six generation pedigree.

Most every dog was offensive minded head dogs so even when the outcrosses happened, the litters had a lot of offensive minded head dogs.

We bred for those traits, even on the out crosses, the traits were the same.

I think it is more about selection than relation.

But again, I am no breeder.

EWO

Did you plan to have head dogs that is why you bred them? (did you prefer head dogs?)

[EWO]

Yes.

Game dogs are hard to come by and game dogs with a ton of mouth are even more scarce. A offensive minded head dog does not have to have a ton of mouth to find the cur in another dog, especially the dog that stays in the face.

From there usually two things happen. One, with minimal mouth a head/face dog can take the mouth from another. A offensive minded head dog plays defense by playing offense and does not receive a lot of punishment.

A offensive minded head dog can be a lesser dog and get in and get out with a W.

These do not have to be all out freaks just dogs who are willing to stay 50-55 minutes and have average to slightly above average mouth.

EWO/EWO II

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41369

This dog could not bust an egg. He was a ways away from having average mouth.

He was absolutely relentless. He scratched like a rocket and went right between the eyes and stayed there. He could dance like none other. He didn't have enough mouth to defend himself but once he landed there was no letting go.

He beat two dogs that all in all were better than him, or at least has more winning quailities.

EWO

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=42272

This dog was a chest and brisket dog. He had a boat load of mouth and could really deliver.

When he won he actaully looked like he lost.

EWO/EWO II

[brightlight168]

Yes.

Game dogs are hard to come by and game dogs with a ton of mouth are even more scarce. A offensive minded head dog does not have to have a ton of mouth to find the cur in another dog, especially the dog that stays in the face.

From there usually two things happen. One, with minimal mouth a head/face dog can take the mouth from another. A offensive minded head dog plays defense by playing offense and does not receive a lot of punishment.

A offensive minded head dog can be a lesser dog and get in and get out with a W.

These do not have to be all out freaks just dogs who are willing to stay 50-55 minutes and have average to slightly above average mouth.

EWO/EWO II

Very good read. I always asks headdog lovers Why?
This is the best explanation.
I've seen Captain Ben, brough a head/face female in the Philippines, a long time ago, it was like not devastating but sticks in the face and wont let go.

[Frank43]

Head face seems like a jab to me. Not ear sucking. To me it’s about the plan. A bolio type that gets a first grab face hold. Then works to flip and get in the throat and finish. Priceless. It’s like mayweather with some Tyson finish. Or Ali staying out of trouble against Liston then ending him with the pullback right.

https://youtu.be/Hb2WFHhXDyw

Something about head dog screams control pace and distance. Brains.

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41359

This is the best all-around dog I have ever seen. He scratched to the side of the head. It almost looked like he opened his mouth and took the ear to the adam's apple and pulled it all together. he did not have devastating mouth but he could bite well above average. He punished the side of the head and the jaw muscle. Once he go there he as freak strong at 45-46 pounds but moved like he was 35-36. He could not be touched from where he landed. At any point there was let up in the o ther he dropped in the throat with extreme finish.

He planted three and curred out 1 in 4 trips out on the road.

Locally there was a lot of debate about this dog on his first time out. His half-brother People's Joker (Jiggs X Lucky) was a 1XW and was in keep for his 2nd. Joker was worked, rubbed, fed and put up for the night looking as good as any dog could being two weeks out. The next morning, he was graveyard dead.

Charlie was a replacement dog. He had been looked at a couple three times and pretty much just needed to be checked. It was decided to walk to bring him in on two weeks and use that as his check. One of the most special things about Charlie was he worked himself into better condition than most conditioners could do with the best laid plan. Whoever was working Charlie simply grabbed a bucket and took a seat inside the chain space of the dog next to him. Charlie then turned his chain into a flying Jenny. He sprinted in one direction as fast as he could go, so much so the chains hardly touched the ground. Every three-four-five minutes or so he would stop, bark a couple times and then go in the other direction as fast as he could go. he would do this as long as someone sat with another dog. So when Charlie cane OTC he was truly OTC in the truest sense of the word.

His first outing was into a 2XW-2XW OTC dog from Harry Hargrove. From the onset Charlie was bombarded as he had never seen that much dog. The handler kept taking his hat off and waving it in the dog's faces. Our side made complaint after complaint to the ref and he would not ask for it to be stopped. Charlie had his face destroyed, and so much so I thought his eyes were no more. After the pounding in the face and eyes on the first scratch he was screaming and pulling so we knew he was going to scratch. Just before he was released a guy from the other camp standing outside the box took off his hat and lowere dit into the box and waved it back and forth. Charlie who was struggling to see scratched to the movement. He made a hard right turn and went for the hat. When the guy snatched it up and away Charlie followed it, airborne, over the wall and into the garage door. The dent almost looks cartoon like as it is an impression of Charlie going splat. He his the foor like a sack of potatoes.

We cried foul they screamed cur. It got loud, there was pushing, shoving and posturing. We were in a neighborhood and 'noise' would be all of our downfalls. We conceded the fight to stop the fight. Charlie was picked up, brought back in the box and when he got his shit together he was screaming and pulling. Charlie was let go and scratched like a rocket. Charlie hit him on top of his face, and the fight resumed. Dogs on the inside and people on the outside. 10 minutes or so passed and order was somewhat restored. We conceded the match.

A really knowledgeable 'old guy' stepped in the box and told the other camp there dog had quit and out of posturing asked for a scratch to win. He laid a $100 bill on the floor and says it is yours if he scratches. The handler knew what he was holding, and we could see he was not pulling or leaning forward. He scooped up his dog as a 3XW-2XW and said 'they didn't have to prove shit to anyone' (which is absolutely true). They took the money, and they took what they called a win but they dug a whole after the ride home. Charlie came back out three more times. And each time we made sure that camp knew he was available and taking money from a wall jumping cur should be a piece of cake. They never bothered.

His next outing the two dog shit in the middle and literally bounced off one another and in the scrum Charlie came up in his ass, a place he had never been. In a handful of minutes it was over. When the dog laid back some Charlie went in his threat and the RBJ (Hot Dog/Humdinger bred) dog was called it quits.

His third time out he wnet into one of the gamest dogs I have ever seen. He was Buck-Red Boy bred and he made scratches the overwhelming majority would not have made. Charlie put something on his head that was brutal and never ending. The Buck bred dog never flinched til he finally collapsed. On his last scratch all he coiuld do was push with one leg and slide himself on the carpet. We took Charlie to the truck and the split second we knew he was good, we grabbed out medical bag and both camps worked on this dog for the next 6 or seven hours trying to save him. I have never seen anything anymore game than this dog. That does not come along every day.

We called Charlie a CH from that point on. Some disagreed then and some disagree now. On his first time out, we lost a lot of money, but he won the show.

Back to the topic, Lucky threw a number of dogs like this. They were methodical in their breakdown work and then throat checked at the end. Most of their breakdown work was on the head-in the face-between the eyes with an offensive mindset. He had a littermate brother, Bobby, who had every skill Charlie had, but with more mouth, but knocked out all his teeth by the time he was 20 months old. Three sisters, Holly, Polly and Dolly, that were equally as talented in the box, but none had the chain running habit like Charlie.

Some call it selection, some call it in-breeding and line breeding and there is a lot of science to both but sometimes it is as simple as stacking the things you like to see from good dogs that do the things you like. That sort of dumbs things down a bit.

EWO

[EWO]

I guess it can be like a jab and then the degree of the impact starts separating one job from another.

There were a couple Larry Hoomes fights where he wins if he never throws the right hand. Some of the jabs Douglas landed on Tyson were really impactful.

Some of Ali's were nothing more than 'distance makers' for something else.

Some jabs set things up and some jabs sting, and some jabs actually hurt and some jabs are just there to keep someone away.

Charlie's jabs were the hurting kind.

EWO II








Head face seems like a jab to me. Not ear sucking. To me it’s about the plan. A bolio type that gets a first grab face hold. Then works to flip and get in the throat and finish. Priceless. It’s like mayweather with some Tyson finish. Or Ali staying out of trouble against Liston then ending him with the pullback right.

https://youtu.be/Hb2WFHhXDyw

Something about head dog screams control pace and distance. Brains.

[Frank43]

I guess it can be like a jab and then the degree of the impact starts separating one job from another.

There were a couple Larry Hoomes fights where he wins if he never throws the right hand. Some of the jabs Douglas landed on Tyson were really impactful.

Some of Ali's were nothing more than 'distance makers' for something else.

Some jabs set things up and some jabs sting, and some jabs actually hurt and some jabs are just there to keep someone away.

Charlie's jabs were the hurting kind.

EWO II

I can’t find that picture. There was a dog glued at a 90 degree angle to the other dog solid face hold. In Mma and Jiu Jitsu there are dominant holds and angles. It has to be one of the most dominant holds possible. I guess that’s where you have to really watch and see if the is a plan. Like watching that Ali fight. He knew Liston had power but he controlled the distance. Ali had speed and power in his hands but not like Liston or foreman. The whole fight he’s back pedaling hitting him with jabs and baiting him for that pull back counter. It’s beautiful. Like the a team. I love it when a plan comes together.

[EWO]

The same. It is hard to compare people sports and canine sports but in s stretch. Ali back peddling and controlling the distance with footwork and hand speed and the 'eventual/continual' beat down comes and then there is a knockout is sort of similar to Charlie's approach. He controlled everything with location and controlling everything with his constant push and pressure. Then at the least sign of fading, bam, it is a KO.

With that said I have been really happy with a few that simply led with their face and said let's trade. LOL

S

[Frank43]

That’s the ward gotti types.