Mind of the breeder vs Mind of the competitor

[wildchild]

Which one do you have?
Which one is right?
Mr. Breeder gets it hard from the competitor and is labled soft on the dogs and a peddler.
Mr. Competitor gets it hard from the breeder and is labled a gambler and a dog user/butcher.
How did those two minds come to confliction?
A breeder has many reasons not to compete.
A competitor has many reasons not 2 breed.
What would a breeder do with all those dogs if there weren't any competitors & where would the competitors get their dogs from if there weren't any breeders?
I've read and heard for years that only a rare special few can do both and now I think i understand why. Because trying to do both can earn you a trip to the psyc ward. How do you who do both maintain sanity? Two minds, one body, and conflict between the 2.

wildchild

[scary]

I may be wrong but i will give my input on it. I think a truly GOOD breeder undestands the as you would say the game aspect of it. How will any breeders TURELY know what good traits his dogs have and witch one has it if he has not tested them to see for his self. Sure he can take dog a and breed to dog b and have a cute piece of paper. Now that's fine if that your thing but why guess what you have when you can KNOW. say they get luck and produce a champ. Ok that's one what happens when your champ dies or is unable to reproduce now what. So you have put blood sweat into breeding and finally produce IF your lucky then what. How could you go collect a bunch of guns or cars and not know witch one is the fastest or witch gun shoots better. Not only that are you gonna just collect them? A good breeder again jmo understands the sporting aspect of the business so for any breeder to not like that you are doing exactly what he breeds for is strange and i am young. But i think you need to think business when it comes down to business and care and intelligence when it comes down to breeding. Hope it makes since but what i am trying to get at is a competitor and breeder combined the only conflict you should face combining the two mind frames is not wanting to let the wrong one get one of your pups and that dog later is the one that standing across the line from you. JMO

[Officially Retired]

Which one do you have?
Which one is right?
Mr. Breeder gets it hard from the competitor and is labled soft on the dogs and a peddler.
Mr. Competitor gets it hard from the breeder and is labled a gambler and a dog user/butcher.
How did those two minds come to confliction?
A breeder has many reasons not to compete.
A competitor has many reasons not 2 breed.
What would a breeder do with all those dogs if there weren't any competitors & where would the competitors get their dogs from if there weren't any breeders?
I've read and heard for years that only a rare special few can do both and now I think i understand why. Because trying to do both can earn you a trip to the psyc ward. How do you who do both maintain sanity? Two minds, one body, and conflict between the 2.
wildchild


Well, first of all, I am sorry about the back-to-back losses of your 3 best males, amigo, I know that has got to be rough. As I told you on the phone, "Welcome to the dogs!": meaning, the kind of heartache that is a game test of its own. What you are articulating is called The Paradox of Truth: for the simple fact is all truths contain paradox. If you love your dogs, it sucks to lose them; but if you don't risk your dogs, you'll never know how high they can rise. On and on it goes. Total breeders could be viewed as those who are committed just to "making more dogs," which can come under criticism, true enough. Total matchers who only run dogs into the ground, without regard to their long-term genetic value, come under the opposite form of criticism, namely "dog wasters" who can't see beyond the immediate thrill of the hunt.

You are right, it does take a special kind of dogman to balance them both well, to build something worthwhile up, and then to put his years of toil out there to be risked ... to know when to stay in it, to know when to pick up, and to have all of the right medical supplies onhand ...and know-how to use them ... all of which are necessary to save any man's best dogs for posterity. Making mistakes in this game can cost you your dreams, it can cost you a decades-worth of breeding potential, even a whole new potential bloodline. And, worst of all, making mistakes in this game can cost you the life of your little friend in there, who's trying his hardest for you, but who just didn't have enough to pull it off that day. At the risk of sounding sappy, I will quote the best poem ever, IMO, one that my own father shared with me many years ago:

If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowances for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream---and not make dreams your master;
If you can think---and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same.
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings---nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And---which is more---you'll be a Man, my son!
~ Rudyard Kipling

Hang in there amigo ... it's something we all go through.

Jack

[Nash]

Nice one Jack.

Wish you strength Wildchild.

[STONEWALL]

I'm assuming the Mr. Breeder you're talking about is a commercial breeder, and Mr. Competitor dosen't breed his own.

Many doggers don't have the yard space to take on breeding projects. They might have room for 10 dogs at best. They need a reliable source to get replacements. Thats probably why many competitors don't breed.

Commercial breeders might not compete because of the risk envolved with thew law.

[Da District]

I would consider myself one of the special ones previously mentioned. I started as competitor and stayed there for many a year. Then after some tuff losses, mainly my dough, I decided to start baking my own pies! after years of doing such, I find myself doing the balancing thing bcuz now use what I've baked in my oven. The risk and reward do not often balance out. You may risk everything (time, money etc) waiting in most cases, a year or 2 ( or longer for u keepers of the late starters.. Lol!)just to see if it worked out. It's great when your work pays off and not so great when it doesnt. I've grown to the point where if it works I merely smile and if it doesnt I smile all the same, then its back to the drawing board. I'm still just as fond and definately more caring for my homies and homettes (dogs) as I've ever been but i have gained a far greater understanding as to how this thing works. At the end of the day like good needs bad and vice versa, breeders and competitors are eternally bound at the hip....Although.............. u may run across the rare Hybrid ;) .............
YIS Da District

PS Jack that Kipling piece was right the hell on my man! Keep em comin'!

[wildchild]

Thanks fellas :)
Jack thats a great poem bro thanks 4 sharing it with me, & ur right on the money on what inspired this topic.


stonewall, I started out beliving, what I was taught, that I should only buy dogs from working kennels. I realized that was the wrong thing to do. Especially when your shopping with the locals. Too many times I brought a dog that I saw with my own eyes only to end up with a $750 collar :evil:
A few times those said culls where hyped to be the baddest, and it did appear that way, but the cull was turned loose in the woods with a bum and had to be stopped quickly. It would make me feel like i had something special when i would load up the new bad ass cull I just purchased. I learned real quick to belive none of what you hear and only half of what you see. I went on and on with the competitor approch but never had any consistant sucess.

da district, I started with a new approach when I met Jack. He was in my ear with his ingreidents and how much better the quality was than the average outlet. I also saw and talked to people who said jack was a liar, a theif, a conartist, you name it they called him it. The truth is even when I had other peoples mutts Jack still helped me with different situations. So I got rid of those other ingreidents and went to Tenn to experiance the Poncho diffrence. and what a diffrence it was :P .
but still I only wanted to compete, but the more and more I delt with & talked to jack the more and more I wanted to breed dogs. in the last instance I ruined a dog that Im now looking back on as a aspiring breeder and kickin the competitor part of me. my question to you is, How do you know who to be on any given day? Every day I awake im a care giver, but im having trouble being who i need to be @ the time I need to be him.

wildchild

[Da District]

To be honest with u, it's one of those things that just came to me eventually. I found that when I was 100% honest with what I saw these decisions became easy for me. As for what jack did for u it's nothing special when u r confident in what you've put together. He didn't have to tell how superior he felt his dogs were, all he had to do was teach u the rite way to do this thing and u would see for yourself. U r on the rite path my man bcuz u aren't afraid to ask questions. The day we think we know it all is more than likely the beginning to the end.
Yis

[Da District]

As far as breeding one or dancing with it, I took on to account what would happen if something happened to the one in question. Like could I repeat the breeding or recreate the dog. If not I'd breed em, if so I'd take em as far as they tell me they could go. Really it's to much to put into perspective on here which is why I commend jack for having the time and patience to write his book.

[Da District]

One last thing... Lol.. Remember that we are human therefore we are prone to error. When u mess up just be sure to learn from it.. Now that u know, what do u do to not repeat those mishaps. Knowing is half the battle..what u do with what u know is the other half. And last but not least.. The definition of insanity is doing the same things but expecting different results.
Yis

[Officially Retired]

Thanks fellas :)
Jack thats a great poem bro thanks 4 sharing it with me, & ur right on the money on what inspired this topic.


Glad I was on the money. As my favorite philosopher, Nietzsche, once said: "If you can't hit the nail on the head, please, don't pick up the hammer." :lol:




Thanks fellas :)
stonewall, I started out beliving, what I was taught, that I should only buy dogs from working kennels. I realized that was the wrong thing to do. Especially when your shopping with the locals. Too many times I brought a dog that I saw with my own eyes only to end up with a $750 collar :evil:
A few times those said culls where hyped to be the baddest, and it did appear that way, but the cull was turned loose in the woods with a bum and had to be stopped quickly. It would make me feel like i had something special when i would load up the new bad ass cull I just purchased. I learned real quick to belive none of what you hear and only half of what you see. I went on and on with the competitor approch but never had any consistant sucess.


Amazing what happens to a "local badass" when he steps up in class ;)





da district, I started with a new approach when I met Jack. He was in my ear with his ingreidents and how much better the quality was than the average outlet. I also saw and talked to people who said jack was a liar, a theif, a conartist, you name it they called him it. The truth is even when I had other peoples mutts Jack still helped me with different situations. So I got rid of those other ingreidents and went to Tenn to experiance the Poncho diffrence. and what a diffrence it was :P .

Do people really say meanly things about me? :cry: :lol:





but still I only wanted to compete, but the more and more I delt with & talked to jack the more and more I wanted to breed dogs. in the last instance I ruined a dog that Im now looking back on as a aspiring breeder and kickin the competitor part of me. my question to you is, How do you know who to be on any given day? Every day I awake im a care giver, but im having trouble being who i need to be @ the time I need to be him.
wildchild

Well, it sucks to see what you care about die, or get stolen, or get bit by a rattlesnake, etc. You begin to realize that your "gold" is only temporary ... and, unless you preserve it, it can disappear altogether someday. This is why it is so valuable to learn correct breeding principles and to establish a solid breeding program based on solid stock and solid breeding principles, because without it, your gold will one day disappear. However, with it, you can keep producing your gold forever. However, the threat of loss is also why you never let anyone but the most trusted, and competent, people know where your dogs are or handle your dogs. Just because you "like" someone, or just because they're "related to you" does not mean they're qualified to handle/care for your key dogs.

What complicates things too, if you lose a good dog, is the simple fact that you form emotional attachments to them--and so it's a lot rougher losing a truly good one than losing a mere gold nugget. In the end, you're not really having any trouble at all ... other than mere bad luck. Your dogs are winning, and when they can't win they are losing DG. You simply can't ask for anything more than that. What you need to do is keep doing what you're doing, and maybe (if you have a snake problem) keep your best, proven dogs in above-ground pens. If you have a "circle" problem, maybe cull some friends/associates, etc. And, if you have an aftercare problem when you're going hunting, maybe get some more drugs (like solu-delta, instead of dex), which has better anti-shock properties--and/or hire an expert to come with you to the next shin-dig, if you can't be there for a full week after the deal. In other words, adapt and overcome.

To quote another great thinker, Benjamin Franklin: "Those things that hurt, instruct."

Jack

[Da District]

"Those things that hurt, instruct."

Jack if I would have thought of that I could've saved myself a lot time typing! Lmao

[Officially Retired]

LOL, well, I understand "typing a lot" ... as my book is over 200,000 words :lol:

Glad you enjoyed it though :mrgreen:

[STONEWALL]

wildchild,

Learn from mistakes, and successes. Never stop striving for improvement. Learn to evaluate each dog. If it has something to offer that the rest of the yard doesn't have, but lacks some of the other traits that the rest yard has it still might be worth a breeding to try and blend the best of both. Test all of your breedings. Just because a breeder doesn't compete doesn't mean he/she isin't testing his/her stock.

[Pistol]

Only a select few kennels still breed and show their own stock these days, an art that has long been forgotten. Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation. Dogmen these days are too hard-headed and carry around that know-it-attitude, yet they are still always "looking" for new blood or dogs to show because the ones they are selling aren't worth the collars they are wearing. This is no ones fault but your own. Choose a line, learn it, and pull the good from it and you will have bulldogs for a lifetime.

Here is an example: You know a guy with a yard full of Boyles type dogs and they are all junk, so you being the cocky young know-it-all you are run and tell the world that Boyles dogs are junk because you have seen 5 quit on your pal's yard. Next thing you know you are in an arguement with a man who has a yard full of bulldogs from that same line because he had patience and was able to study, breed, raise, cull, and pull the best possible dogs he could from that strain of bulldogs. Like the famous quote from the movie "Colors" when the 2 bull were on a hill watching the cows graze in the pasture, and the baby bull said to his dad "Hey dad, lets run down the hill and f*#k one of those cows" and the dad says "No son, lets walk down and f*@k em all". I have much respect to the kennels who are still showing animals that they have bred and were able to continue with the same blood they have ran for years. Anyone can breed 2 animals together and come up with a bulldog, and some dogs can flat out just produce, but it takes a special person to consistanly produce bulldogs year after year using different dogs from the same blood. When I see a man with a good producing dog I tell him "this is great that you are able to show all your dog's sons and daughters, but will you still be able to show dogs when that same stud dog is dead and gone?"

Pistol,

[apeman]

Bump up for 2020...

[Frank43]

I’m glad this got bumped. I think the two are separate skills. Sometimes they are present in one person. Honestly only now am I starting to see that you have to have some kind of team. I think like a breeder. For some reason some high level people allowed me to get high quality dogs even when I couldn’t afford them. I think they knew that the dogs would have a good life. Now fortuitously a good kennel gave me access to his dogs. They were actually a breeding pair. I spent so much time living with and working with the pair. I know them. I know who has brains, who is skittish. Who is super aggressive and likely to run through a brick wall if I asked him. I read this board and thought of a dog ha my name what would I want them to be known for. I read pat Patrick’s article and thought for weeks about the dogs I wanted. And what i valued. Gameness, work ethic, durability. I say work ethic. I believe a man with a small yard that has two or three brood males and females and 3-4 prospects should keep his dogs in shape at all times. I think you can beat most people by feeding and dog right, exercising him so he’s always strong at his weight, smart etc. I found a male that threw a 230 dog. I still think this stud was under appreciated and he was lost. I have a dog off him bred to a waccamaw dog. From rumors wacc doesn’t tolerate game plugs and wants some Dibo traits in his dogs. Bred him to the female that has more prey drive and smarts only works one way. Got the litter and raised it in the house. I know temperaments of the pups. I selected away from shy traits. I found hardest worker with a stable temperament. And a smart fast athletic female. I think the female is the mother and father in one dog. The brothers and sisters are around me. Maybe it isn’t true but I think you can see parts of a pups personality and the adult may not stray far from it. I’m planning a father daughter and a brother sister. They would say don’t inbreed. I disagree. The coefficient of inbreeding was 4%. Breeding the father to daughter hopefully would have a high percentage of starters, her smaller size and brains and work ethic. Good confirmation on both. Good lungs. They should have a good chance. The brother sister has the potential for more culls. We don’t breed for confirmation, but as we talked before confirmation and structure relates to performance. Rthe male is a little narrow in the backend. He can really close his jaws at a young age, he’s more the slow starter and smart. He’s the quiet guy at the table bully regrets picking on. “ Damn he snapped and put him in the hospital.” I prepared for the brother sister to make the backend worse in some pups. If I have to cull then I’ll pray over them and give them a good send off. I have a dog in my mind I’m trying to build. I see him. I know his traits. I have to keep mixing and matching ingredients in a soup until I can mass produce him. I think this way of thought is opposite to the matcher. For instance people around me do like the foundation I have. They were looking at buying a pup with more of the same blood. Me I think like yard genetics. “Now I’m planning the brother and sister and father daughter. I think we have some run through walls types. I need to find some talent to add to the mix. Maybe breed back to that stud at a later date. Most marchers think like that. I can think like the matcher too. One of the first pups is a straight ahead bulldog. I’m like I wouldn’t train him like my new foundation female. I lean towards the breeder mindset but I think like I’m training my warrior for battle and what skills they need and how I like to train. I still need to see if we can get that talent and bring it into my hard dogs. Two different mindsets.


Only a select few kennels still breed and show their own stock these days, an art that has long been forgotten. Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation. Dogmen these days are too hard-headed and carry around that know-it-attitude, yet they are still always "looking" for new blood or dogs to show because the ones they are selling aren't worth the collars they are wearing. This is no ones fault but your own. Choose a line, learn it, and pull the good from it and you will have bulldogs for a lifetime.

Here is an example: You know a guy with a yard full of Boyles type dogs and they are all junk, so you being the cocky young know-it-all you are run and tell the world that Boyles dogs are junk because you have seen 5 quit on your pal's yard. Next thing you know you are in an arguement with a man who has a yard full of bulldogs from that same line because he had patience and was able to study, breed, raise, cull, and pull the best possible dogs he could from that strain of bulldogs. Like the famous quote from the movie "Colors" when the 2 bull were on a hill watching the cows graze in the pasture, and the baby bull said to his dad "Hey dad, lets run down the hill and f*#k one of those cows" and the dad says "No son, lets walk down and f*@k em all". I have much respect to the kennels who are still showing animals that they have bred and were able to continue with the same blood they have ran for years. Anyone can breed 2 animals together and come up with a bulldog, and some dogs can flat out just produce, but it takes a special person to consistanly produce bulldogs year after year using different dogs from the same blood. When I see a man with a good producing dog I tell him "this is great that you are able to show all your dog's sons and daughters, but will you still be able to show dogs when that same stud dog is dead and gone?"

Pistol,

[Frank43]

Only a select few kennels still breed and show their own stock these days, an art that has long been forgotten. Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation. Dogmen these days are too hard-headed and carry around that know-it-attitude, yet they are still always "looking" for new blood or dogs to show because the ones they are selling aren't worth the collars they are wearing. This is no ones fault but your own. Choose a line, learn it, and pull the good from it and you will have bulldogs for a lifetime.

Here is an example: You know a guy with a yard full of Boyles type dogs and they are all junk, so you being the cocky young know-it-all you are run and tell the world that Boyles dogs are junk because you have seen 5 quit on your pal's yard. Next thing you know you are in an arguement with a man who has a yard full of bulldogs from that same line because he had patience and was able to study, breed, raise, cull, and pull the best possible dogs he could from that strain of bulldogs. Like the famous quote from the movie "Colors" when the 2 bull were on a hill watching the cows graze in the pasture, and the baby bull said to his dad "Hey dad, lets run down the hill and f*#k one of those cows" and the dad says "No son, lets walk down and f*@k em all". I have much respect to the kennels who are still showing animals that they have bred and were able to continue with the same blood they have ran for years. Anyone can breed 2 animals together and come up with a bulldog, and some dogs can flat out just produce, but it takes a special person to consistanly produce bulldogs year after year using different dogs from the same blood. When I see a man with a good producing dog I tell him "this is great that you are able to show all your dog's sons and daughters, but will you still be able to show dogs when that same stud dog is dead and gone?"

Pistol,

Bump

[Frank43]

Only a select few kennels still breed and show their own stock these days, an art that has long been forgotten. Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation. Dogmen these days are too hard-headed and carry around that know-it-attitude, yet they are still always "looking" for new blood or dogs to show because the ones they are selling aren't worth the collars they are wearing. This is no ones fault but your own. Choose a line, learn it, and pull the good from it and you will have bulldogs for a lifetime.

Here is an example: You know a guy with a yard full of Boyles type dogs and they are all junk, so you being the cocky young know-it-all you are run and tell the world that Boyles dogs are junk because you have seen 5 quit on your pal's yard. Next thing you know you are in an arguement with a man who has a yard full of bulldogs from that same line because he had patience and was able to study, breed, raise, cull, and pull the best possible dogs he could from that strain of bulldogs. Like the famous quote from the movie "Colors" when the 2 bull were on a hill watching the cows graze in the pasture, and the baby bull said to his dad "Hey dad, lets run down the hill and f*#k one of those cows" and the dad says "No son, lets walk down and f*@k em all". I have much respect to the kennels who are still showing animals that they have bred and were able to continue with the same blood they have ran for years. Anyone can breed 2 animals together and come up with a bulldog, and some dogs can flat out just produce, but it takes a special person to consistanly produce bulldogs year after year using different dogs from the same blood. When I see a man with a good producing dog I tell him "this is great that you are able to show all your dog's sons and daughters, but will you still be able to show dogs when that same stud dog is dead and gone?"

Pistol,

Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation.

Facts

[UrbanDogman]

Most of today's dogmen are hit & miss because they are unable to focus on one group of foundation stock, study their backgrounds, and then pull the best from it. Today's dogmen want a good dog NOW over having many good dogs later. They will buy, sell, and trade dogs in hopes of that good one landing in their lap that will earn them some respect; but then what? That dog loses, dies, or produces like crap and your back where you started from, and that's looking for another dog. Stick to a line and study the traits of the animals behind the ones you keep, know what to look for in your animals so you know what dogs you are throwing back on in hopes of recreation.

Facts

I would bet the house you have never met a true dogman. Your a hobby breeder, an armchair pet bull enthusast who may...may have a couple of pet pulls in his backyard.

You're also a real life Stephen from D'Jango :lol:

https://youtu.be/VPTVF3r2yB8

[Frank43]

Stephen from jango. That's actually funny. I appreciate a good joke. I guess this is where I'm supposed to name drop. I have known plenty. With a better record than you. Thanks for the joke. It's good when trolls come out. This is you. https://youtu.be/98nQ_m8013M

[Frank43]

https://youtu.be/5IWVUdG5OXM