E MILL KEEPS

[southend]

I HEAR THERE IS ALOT OF DOGMEN AROUND THE WORLD SOLEY USING THE EMILL TO CONDITION THERE DOGS ,WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK THE WEAK AND STRONG POINTS OF A KEEP LIKE THIS WOULD BE ?

[R2L]

fat bill chats about it a little on the art of victory

i dont see any preferences over a free spinning slat, or maybe if you want to simulate some slow pace hand walking?

[BulldogConnection]

Emill for the most part is identical to a hand walking keep. It definitely shouldn't be the sole form of exercise but works great as a part. 4-5.5mph clip at an incline for 1-2hrs works for us.

[Crofab]

Emill can be any part of the keep a person desires. The emill can be the main focus of a keep if a person chooses it to be. Why run a dog at 4.5-5mph clip at an incline when you can work the dog up to running close to 10mph or over for 1-2hrs? I can think of a few men over the years that have used the emill as a sole form of exercise with great success. It is the same premise as individuals using slatmills, carpetmills, or catmills as the sole form of exercise. I do agree that a person should use a variety of exercise apparatus, but we all know any of the aforementioned devices can be the sole form of exercise with great results.

[PurePit19]

I used a emill for years in the past, in conjunction with other exercise equipment. I havent had use for it at all in the past few years. I believe there a couple tools to use that are far superior than a emill. JMO

[Princerover]

I agree with R2L, Im using mine just to warm the the dogs before placing them on the slatmill.

[BulldogConnection]

Emill can be any part of the keep a person desires. The emill can be the main focus of a keep if a person chooses it to be. Why run a dog at 4.5-5mph clip at an incline when you can work the dog up to running close to 10mph or over for 1-2hrs? I can think of a few men over the years that have used the emill as a sole form of exercise with great success. It is the same premise as individuals using slatmills, carpetmills, or catmills as the sole form of exercise. I do agree that a person should use a variety of exercise apparatus, but we all know any of the aforementioned devices can be the sole form of exercise with great results.

Running a dog at that speed on a Emill just isn't worth it IMO. Sure someone can if they want, they can condition a dig whichever way they like there's just a much better way of going about it. Flat out running on a slat, carpet or Jenny is a far better alternative to jacking up an Emill to WOT. But to each his own.

[Crofab]

I thought the idea of conditioning a dog for a show was to get the dog in the best possible shape? If that is the objective, and a person can do such a thing without any harm to the dog, exactly how is it not worth it? If a person is there with the dog the entire time it's on the mill, and they are monitoring the dog's progress, to me it seems it's exactly worth it.

A dog that's able to run at 10mp for 1 hour or 2 hours even is going to be in better shape than one that can't. I think the onus is on the conditioner to prove that there are better ways to condition dogs simply because a man doesn't agree with it. I personally don't believe flat out running a slat or a carpet mill is better than an emill. While the dog does control the speed at which they run, they're not the conditioner whose sole job is to have the dog in the best possible condition for the upcoming event. So in that aspect, if the dog feels like slowing down or stopping when it's not to the dog's advantage to do so, it can. With an emill, a person can work their dog up higher and higher speeds for longer amounts of time if they have the brain power to do so.

I don't own an emill. I definitely see the benefit of having one for a variety of reasons. In the end, if the dog that was worked on the emill is in better shape than his opponent that was worked a variety of ways, I'd say it was worth it. Ultimately, the choices of one's conditioning methods will be tested within the squared walls of truth. However a person chooses to condition their animals, I hope they're doing it right, emill or not.

[dtakennels]

If you are running a dog at 10mph for 1 or 2 hours at a time on a mill you are messing him up bottom line.

[BulldogConnection]

I thought the idea of conditioning a dog for a show was to get the dog in the best possible shape? If that is the objective, and a person can do such a thing without any harm to the dog, exactly how is it not worth it? If a person is there with the dog the entire time it's on the mill, and they are monitoring the dog's progress, to me it seems it's exactly worth it.

A dog that's able to run at 10mp for 1 hour or 2 hours even is going to be in better shape than one that can't. I think the onus is on the conditioner to prove that there are better ways to condition dogs simply because a man doesn't agree with it. I personally don't believe flat out running a slat or a carpet mill is better than an emill. While the dog does control the speed at which they run, they're not the conditioner whose sole job is to have the dog in the best possible condition for the upcoming event. So in that aspect, if the dog feels like slowing down or stopping when it's not to the dog's advantage to do so, it can. With an emill, a person can work their dog up higher and higher speeds for longer amounts of time if they have the brain power to do so.

I don't own an emill. I definitely see the benefit of having one for a variety of reasons. In the end, if the dog that was worked on the emill is in better shape than his opponent that was worked a variety of ways, I'd say it was worth it. Ultimately, the choices of one's conditioning methods will be tested within the squared walls of truth. However a person chooses to condition their animals, I hope they're doing it right, emill or not.

Simply because the gait would be much more unnatural and a chance for an accident much higher with an emill ripping away at that speed. Have you ever conditioned a dog using this method?

[PurePit19]

Having a dog run 10mph will not be in better shape, he will have better endurance but that's about it. Running on a mill is easier than jogging on the street, so in all actuality road work is the best form of running you can do, the pads on the dog usually don't allow for extreme distances... But they're easy ways around it. As in MMA, the more well rounded the competitor, the harder to beat. With that said, a emill may give you wind, but you will sacrifice in other areas, this I am certain.

[DROPZONE]

Are you doing 10mph for one or two hours non stop? Thats a pretty fast pace in my opinion and to be able to keep that up with out breaking stride. Great topic. Definately want to hear more on this. Btw i have been told by my mentor that using a mill is just a lazy mans way of conditioning .

[Crofab]

DTA, how is a dog being messed up working him that way when he wins in 2 hours, never coming off his feet or taking a deep breath?

Bulldog Connection, yes I have conditioned a dog in such a way, minus the incline.

Purepit, I don't know what aspect of conditioning you think is most vital, but cardio/endurance is the most vital part of any keep. So running a dog at that speed for that time will make the dog in better shape for the most important aspect of the keep. Running on a mill isn't easier than running on the street as running is running. Running the mill is different, of that there is no doubt.

In actuality, whichever form of running allows a man to get his dog in the best possible shape to win consistently is the best form of running. The pads on a dog don't allow for extreme distances because people don't condition them to be such a thing. They just start working the dog, in whichever way, and never stop to consider the pads are like a dog's tires. There are ways to condition a dog's pads for alot more distances than most think, and if that's not good enough, then buy some boots for the feet like sled dog mushers use on their animals.

I'm not sure on sacrificing as a dog isn't going to become weaker due to an emill. It's not going to lose it's natural ability nor it's mouth (if it has any to begin with). An emill is a tool to use, nothing more and nothing less. Some men's understanding are ahead of others, and that allows them to do things others simply can't fathom.

[R2L]

a dog can recover whilst walking, on a free spinning mill when it chooses to. not if at a constant fast pace for 2 houres on an e mill
that's how you overwork a dog.

[Buck E. Owens]

Id like to see some examples of a few emill keeps. I use one for keeping them in shapeand to increase wind. Great tool in the winter. When everythings all frozen up. R

[Crofab]

A man can overwork his dog by having it work 5 or 6 days in a row without any significant rest period. Overworking a dog is corrected by rest. It's not corrected by allowing a dog to recover while working. Your dog isn't going to be allowed a chance to recover while in a show as his opponent isn't going to allow that to happen. The animal has plenty of time to recover once the work is over for the day.

[R2L]

A man can overwork his dog by having it work 5 or 6 days in a row without any significant rest period. Overworking a dog is corrected by rest. It's not corrected by allowing a dog to recover while working. Your dog isn't going to be allowed a chance to recover while in a show as his opponent isn't going to allow that to happen. The animal has plenty of time to recover once the work is over for the day.

You're on of them players who turns "fatigue" off on pro evolution soccer. :mrgreen:

[Crofab]

My soccer playing skills were always minimal at best. ;)

I honestly just believe I've seen plenty of dogs, and not just from this breed, do things that people just can't believe are possible. I am no one on the grand scale of people in bulldogs, but about fifteen years ago, I came up with a goal I wanted to reach in regards to conditioning dogs. I've worked a dog every way that most everyone has in an attempt to determine which way is the "best". That goes from the emill, slat mill, carpet mill, road work, cat mill, weight pulling, spring pole; you name it and I'm almost sure I've done it. What I found is that there is no "best" way to get a dog in shape. Each tool has it's pros and cons, and it is up to us, as the conditioner, to get that particular tool to work to our advantage. Some tools I appreciated more than others due to the intensity at which the dog approached the work with that particular apparatus.

I do know that most conditioners barely scratch the surface of the working capability of our dogs. These dogs are able to work at a very high rate and still be able to perform as desired. To me, following the status quo simply isn't something I subscribe to.

[southend]

Some great replys guys great food for taught thanks much appreciated, I may have to move house soon so ill have to say bye bye to my jenny ,I always liked my emill for warm ups and cool downs and pre keeping dogs, but always wonder how effective it would be soley used from start to finish ,Its something ill have to come to grips with as a move is inivitable with the state of the economy poxy bankers ,Anyway thank god we have these great dogs to consume the space in our brain that would other wise be used for worrying LOL, If anyone has some emill keeps that the would like to post or pm id love to study them and try them out THANKS IN ADVANCE

[Officially Retired]

It is my view that anything that makes your dog "get tired" works him, and anything that does not, does not.

I disagree with the idea that "all exercises are equal," and I further disagree with the idea that any "one" exercise method is all that's needed.

Of the available conditioning options, if I had to select "one" it would be a toss-up be the flirt-pole and the jenny, it sure wouldn't be an emill. To those who believe an emill (or even a slat mill) is "the same" as running, I totally disagree. For one thing, in an emill, the dog isn't using ANY strength at at all, he is just "moving his legs" so he can keep from falling. In a slat mill, the dog is at least moving the belt with his legs, thereby accomplishing some strength conditioning in the process.

By contrast, with free running or jenny work, the dog actually has to propel his whole body weight off the ground ... as the ground is neither "moving for him" (like the belt of an emill), nor can the dog "move the ground" (like he can move a mere belt in a slat mill). Because a dog actually has to carry and propel his own weight, in true running on the ground, I believe this kind of running to have more overall value to a dog ... but less overall "convenience" for the owner. I believe this is why many natural conditioners believe indoor mills to be "the lazy man's way," because in a way it is true. As with feeding kibbled dogfood, instead of feeding raw, it is simply easier for the human to do, but in the same fashion is not as good for the dog to have it done.

Sure, dogs "can survive" on kibble ... and, sure again, dogs "can get in shape" on mills ... but neither practice is OPTIMAL for the dog.

In the end, feeding raw is the OPTIMAL way to feed a dog ... and free/natural conditioning out on the open earth in the outdoors is likewise the OPTIMAL way to condition him ... the rest are just "more convenient" (for people) alternatives ... but they, likewise, are not as good. And anyone who has ever actually run a cross-country marathon, and compared that level of difficulty to just "running on a mill" in a gym, will be in unanimous agreement with this position :idea:

Jack

[Crofab]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same. As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.

I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing. I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal. Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal. I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.

[southend]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same. As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.

I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing. I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal. Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal. I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.
Good post i dont supose you,d like to share what your other contraption is :mrgreen:

[Officially Retired]

I agree in that an emill isn't building any type of strength. The act of running, whether it's on a jenny or a mill, is still the same act of running. It is definitely different in what it accomplishes with each tool, but the act is just the same.

Not so. By the very admission that an emill "isn't building muscle," and that actual running is "definitely different" in what it accomplishes, you are thereby admitting they are not "the same."

Your error here is in confusing "moving your legs" with actually running. With an emill, you're just "moving your legs" while a belt is moving underneath you. By contrast, out in the hills you are actually running, which means propelling your whole body forward against the inertia of gravity. This absolute difference in what is actually happening between the two exercises is precisely why true running is ultimately superior to emilling.




As a runner, I can attest to the differences in running on a stationary treadmill as opposed to running on trails throughout acreage or on a track. I can also tell the difference in dogs when running a treadmill as opposed to running a jenny or something along those lines.

If you can tell "the difference," then basic logic holds that they are, in fact, not the same ;)





I personally would never suggest using just one tool to get a dog in shape. I have used just one tool to do so over the years just for my own satisfaction to see if it could be done successfully. In that regard, most all of them can be used singularly and still have the animal come out a winner.


Neither would I. But because dogs can "come out winners" placed under a wide variety of keeps, what this shows is that there are other factors to winning than "what keep" the dog is placed on ... the most important of which is what dog is being used, and at what weight?






I think that any way of conditioning a dog can be labeled as the "lazy man's" way as the man isn't doing any work aside from keeping an eye on his charge to make sure all goes smoothly. The man isn't doing any of the strenuous work that his animal is performing.

That is not true. Bicycling a dog, or weight pulling a dog, involves human effort and constant attention. Even flirtpoling and ATVing a dog require more effort than putting a dog on a mill and just standing there, and (what's more) they're ultimately better for the dog too.





I personally believe that whatever the dog does the best is the optimal way to condition the animal.

Disagree again. What some lazy dogs "do best" is just stand there :lol:

I do get your point though.





Regardless of my own personal feelings, if a dog will not work a jenny but will work a mill like a madman, then the mill is the optimal way for that particular animal.

This is true for that animal, but that doesn't mean the emill is the best way to condition in general ... it is just all that particular dog can be coaxed to do.






I personally feel that the flirtpole, jenny, and another contraption I use are the best ways to condition a dog. Unfortunately for me, not all of my dogs share the same mindset.

Yep. The flirtpole, the jenny, and two other contraptions are what comprise my own keep, and dogs that don't want to work these devices will be at an exercise disadvantage compared to the ones that do.

Jack

[southend]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill :lol:

[R2L]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill :lol:

But who wants to buy it :lol: Maybe some chihuahua owner. GL

[southend]

Some great points of view from both sides ,But for some reason i feel like selling my e mill :lol:

But who wants to buy it :lol: Maybe some chihuahua owner. GL
For sure in the words of homer simpson D,oh :lol: :lol:

[Crofab]

Not so. By the very admission that an emill "isn't building muscle," and that actual running is "definitely different" in what it accomplishes, you are thereby admitting they are not "the same."

Your error here is in confusing "moving your legs" with actually running. With an emill, you're just "moving your legs" while a belt is moving underneath you. By contrast, out in the hills you are actually running, which means propelling your whole body forward against the inertia of gravity. This absolute difference in what is actually happening between the two exercises is precisely why true running is ultimately superior to emilling.

Moving your legs at a slow pace is walking, while moving your legs at a fast pace is running. I'm not disputing what's best for the animal. The physical act of running is still the same whether it's on an emill, a slatmill, a carpetmill, jenny, etc. Yes, there is more work involved with some as opposed to the others. No one is disputing that fact.





Neither would I. But because dogs can "come out winners" placed under a wide variety of keeps, what this shows is that there are other factors to winning than "what keep" the dog is placed on ... the most important of which is what dog is being used, and at what weight?

Agreed. There are other variables and factors that come into play when dogs are matched as most winners are simply better than others. I believe it shows all of the things you mentioned along with the keep.







That is not true. Bicycling a dog, or weight pulling a dog, involves human effort and constant attention. Even flirtpoling and ATVing a dog require more effort than putting a dog on a mill and just standing there, and (what's more) they're ultimately better for the dog too.

In reference to weight pulling, I guess that would depend on how a person goes about doing such a task. There is no work involved in flirtpoling aside from me laughing and snickering at dogs! ATV requires effort in driving and watching the dog, neither of which is forcing the individual to do any work. Either way, it's all a "lazy man's" way of working the dog unless the man is truly working strenuously alongside the animal every step of the way.





This is true for that animal, but that doesn't mean the emill is the best way to condition in general ... it is just all that particular dog can be coaxed to do.

I never said the emill was the best way to condition in general. I was simply pointing out that the ideas revolving around emills and keeps simply aren't all the same. That, in fact, it can be used as a tool to get a dog in shape to win as opposed to just walking which is what seems to be the prevailing idea on how to use an emill for many people.




Yep. The flirtpole, the jenny, and two other contraptions are what comprise my own keep, and dogs that don't want to work these devices will be at an exercise disadvantage compared to the ones that do.

Jack

110% agreement!

[BulldogConnection]

Bulldog Connection, yes I have conditioned a dog in such a way, minus the incline.


Well thats definitely interesting. A dog working an emill at a 4.5-5mph isn't simply your run of the mill (pun not intended) hand walking exercise. Especially at an incline. Its a sharp paced trot which is honestly what most dogs spend most of their time doing on a free turning slat mill or jenny. Very rarely will one run full clip for an entire 2 hours.

Now I agree it can be the main focus of a keep if someone so wishes, ANYTHING can be the main focus of a keep if thats what the conditioner wants. My recommendation was not to make it the sole exercise in a keep however again thats anyone's prerogative as well. What works for us is a consistent trot with the incline to involve more work for the canine. When level it doesn't accomplish much more than giving a warm up and a chance to empty out.

Each apparatus has its benefits, I prefer to make use of as many as possible rather than try to make one fit all.

[Officially Retired]

Moving your legs at a slow pace is walking, while moving your legs at a fast pace is running. I'm not disputing what's best for the animal. The physical act of running is still the same whether it's on an emill, a slatmill, a carpetmill, jenny, etc. Yes, there is more work involved with some as opposed to the others. No one is disputing that fact.


Well I guess it is time to pull-out the ol' microscope again and examine the concept of running. The original concept of running had to do with going somewhere ... of (as you say) "moving your legs fast" ... but along with this effort came the reality of actually going from Point A to Point B at a fast pace. This involves propelling your full bodyweight forward over the earth against the inertia of gravity.

Treadmill "running" isn't really traveling; therefore it isn't really running. You're "moving your legs" but not like you have to do to run. I suppose it is more properly called "running in place" rather than true running (traveling). The slat mill allows "running in place" to happen when the dog moves the belt; however, when a dog is on an emill the belt moves itself ... so the dog really isn't doing much besides trying to keep his "moving legs" in pace with the moving belt. Of the two exercises, I would say the standard mill more closely replicates true running, doubly-so if the belt doesn't move too freely, but in neither case is the dog actually propelling his full bodyweight forward and traveling.

For these reasons, I think we both agree that neither one provides the overall benefit of legitimate running, which involves more overall effort at maintaining balance, thereby bringing in stabilizer muscles, coordination, etc.





Agreed. There are other variables and factors that come into play when dogs are matched as most winners are simply better than others. I believe it shows all of the things you mentioned along with the keep.


Yep.





In reference to weight pulling, I guess that would depend on how a person goes about doing such a task. There is no work involved in flirtpoling aside from me laughing and snickering at dogs! ATV requires effort in driving and watching the dog, neither of which is forcing the individual to do any work. Either way, it's all a "lazy man's" way of working the dog unless the man is truly working strenuously alongside the animal every step of the way.


Well obviously a man cannot keep pace with a dog, but that doesn't mean the man does absolutely no work at all. In peddling a bike, a man is working. By flirtpoling, sure it is fun, but it is also participation and constant attention in the work. Weightpulling is most definitely the most work (as I prescribe it), consisting of one man behind the dog controlling him and adding/removing weights ... with another running ahead of the dog baiting him with a hide/flirtpole.

All of these require much more effort and commitment than plopping a dog on an emill and setting your watch.





I never said the emill was the best way to condition in general. I was simply pointing out that the ideas revolving around emills and keeps simply aren't all the same. That, in fact, it can be used as a tool to get a dog in shape to win as opposed to just walking which is what seems to be the prevailing idea on how to use an emill for many people.


I didn't mean to imply you thought an emill was best.

However, I personally don't think it is as good as even walking a dog, provided the dog is pulling good in the harness. I guess it would depend on the line/kind of dog, but a naturally long-winded head dog will not benefit at all on an emill compared to other kinds of device.





110% agreement!

Yep.


Jack

[BulldogConnection]

Working at an incline involves more than just keeping up with belt speed or maintaining balance. There is much more effort being exerted due to having to work up hill.

As far as being a "lazy man's" way to work a dog I wouldn't go as far to call mill work or any sort of work lazy simply because it is a cheap way to discredit one persons method while touting your own. Each can be as involved and disassociated as the person wishes. Its simple to strap a dog to a jenny and just there drinking a beer while listening to music. Someone can also put a dog on an emill and stay with it giving encouragement along the way. Neither is any better than the other, different strokes.

Personally I find the emill far more effective and a much safer alternative to handwalking and no longer perform any road work aside from a bit of weight pull/chain drag.

With an emill I can get 4-10 miles of constant walking uphill out of a dog without any interruptions or risks of the animal stepping on or ingesting foreign objects, being hassled by strange animals or running into any nosey people.

[DROPZONE]

With mill or no mill , they will both get the job done . But i like the fact that with a flirt pole you can get one hot faster than you can witg a mill jmho. And its also not just flurting the dog and putting him up, and the same goes for the mill. You have to know what you are doing in order for uou to be in descent shape . Theres a purpose for everything from the food to the workout and even the schooling, it all plays a part . This is one of my favorite topics on hounds . Alot of you have posted great information. Btw i learned the hardway on conditioning. Its a bad feeling when they do their part and you came up short on your end.

[STORMY]

true NOSEY PEOPLE are those worst especially if you on a daily schedule .

[OGDOGG]

http://i.imgur.com/THv5z.jpgDon't ever use an emill as the main way to work your dog. It doesn't work his body whatsoever but only his legs, as he is only moving those parts when the belt is turned on. I just don't see any reason for an
Emill except to turn it on and let your house dog do some light jogging on his own.
At the recent BBQ I went to, the dog who was worked on the Emill keep ran hot in :20 minutes and never recover til he was DOA at the :50 mark. The other dog was on a natural keep with a slat mill/road work and he looked like he wasn't even breathing. I spent some time with the c/h and the losing dog during his keep and he sure does work the s*** out of that dog going hella fast and for long periods of time during each workout. He said his dog could run the emill for hours and that his dog will never run hot in the box.

[FrostyPaws]

When a dog is running any type of mill, it is only using it's legs whether it's a slat or an emill. Using a slat requires the dog to pull the belt around, but it is still using the legs/shoulders to run. I can't comment on what "hella fast" and "long periods of time" are to that c/h. All I can say is that if the dog ran hot in 20 minutes, it has little to do with the equipment and plenty to do with the c/h.

Equipment has never failed to get a dog in shape. The only thing that can do that is the man conditioning the dog.

[OGDOGG]

http://i.imgur.com/xQlt9.jpgWorking on the Emill is strictly for the legs which include the shoulders cause the belt turns by itself. Working on the slat works the whole body except for the head.
It could also depend on how hard or how free spinning you want the slat to be. The one pictured above is a hard turning slat cause it's got a huge belt. I could slightly tap the brake and they'll be weight pulling. I also have another mill where it's flat and free spinning where they simulate running and walking out side. I just think anytime a dog has to turn a belt with its own strength, they're using more than just their legs. But if they were hung like the dog on the e mill, then they're not really building any body strength.
You're right about the dog running hot has nothing to do with the equipment. It has everything to do with the man working the dog. The way he chose to work the dog(e mill) and along with whatever feed he uses has everything to do with the dog running hot in :20.
He could've done more than just running the dog on the E mill but he chose not to walk the dog or do any other type of workout. Just strictly the E mill. I done told him not to be cheap on his keep cause its a big pot. But I guess some people are just hard headed.

[Officially Retired]

Wild Red Rose's brother Turbo was a thick, slow, ponderous dog ... with a devastating mouth ... and he was like a rock wall.

Other dogs would be all over him, but by about :15 to :20 Turbo would get his mouth on the other dog, and within :05 to :15 more minutes the other dog would be crippled, with arteries gushing blood out of its muzzle, armpits, and legs. It was the same story in every roll and every match ... until he was kept on an emill.

The genius who kept him on an emill did so to "put air" in Turbo, but the idiot failed to realize Turbo had great natural stamina and didn't need any help in getting more air. He fought slowly, ponderously, and economically ... and all the guy did was rail Turbo down (taking away his natural power, mouth, and body strength) and turned Turbo into a useless, weak, wet noodle ... who wobbled when you pet him he was so scrawny ... and (you guessed) Turbo lost that time around and was NOTHING compared to how he looked coming in from a slat mill and weight pulling.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Wow what a way to lose a good dog. Dogs with mouth like that is hard to come by. So far in 18 years I only had 1 dog (Amos1xw1xldg)with a freak mouth like that and campaign another one
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pictures/242785.jpg (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=242785)
Who belonged to a friend of mine. I remember for Chicos first I used an E mill cause it was so hard to work him. Luckily I also realized the E mill wasn't doing much and he was a better road worker. The only problem with road work was that he would work the heck out of whoever that was walking him. He was strong as an ox and no matter how hot he got, he's not stopping til we get home.
Some people just don't realize with a hard biting dog, that dog actually need to be at their highest peak weight.

[FrostyPaws]

What constitutes a dog's highest peak weight? And why does a hard biting dog need to be there?

While the two incidents that are given seem to be a good reason as to why a person shouldn't use an e-mill, in the end, if the person doing the conditioning doesn't have the proper know how on how to use the equipment or in conditioning in general, you can expect such results from ANY conditioning device.

[Dogman]

On a E-mill the belt moves the dogs feet, while on a slat or carpet mill the dogs feet move the belt.

I agree with FrostyPaws as its not the equipments fault, but the H/C who did not know how to properly use that particular equipment and not knowing how to utilize it to its maximum benefits.

[ragedog10]

Always thought this was a great debate!

[EWO]

Me too. Two trains of thought here.

I knew a guy once who used the e-mill as the staple of his keep. He used variable speeds over different lengths of time. He still did some weight pulling (chains) for distance and time as well as a tire for shorter pulls. He used a flirt pole that was like 20ft. long. He could get the dog to burst back and forth going from zero to wide open for 20-30 feet and then reverse. Every day started with the emill and everyday ended with the emill. I seen several of his shows and his dogs were always in great shape. I gave the credit to the flirt pole but he put it on the emill. He 'believed' it was the emill so for him it was the emill.

2nd was the guy that turned me onto the dogs as a kid. He had a mill with an expanded wire cage built around it and a locking back door. No hook ups, no collars and no harness. He would turn it on really slow and it would roll the dog to the back of the cage. Within seconds he figured out he had to walk. He bumped the speed here and there. Within a couple of sessions the dog really had the idea.
After two, possibly three sessions it was the last time the dog ever saw the emill. The next session was on the slat mill and dog hit it running. He said the only thing the emill was good for was to teach a young dog to run on an off the ground surface. I can remember every 8-10 month old dog came off the chain to get his turns on the emill. Some of my best memories were the dogs just zinging the shit out of that slat mill. For that he gave credit to the emill.

EWO

[Nut]

Wild Red Rose's brother Turbo was a thick, slow, ponderous dog ... with a devastating mouth ... and he was like a rock wall.

Other dogs would be all over him, but by about :15 to :20 Turbo would get his mouth on the other dog, and within :05 to :15 more minutes the other dog would be crippled, with arteries gushing blood out of its muzzle, armpits, and legs. It was the same story in every roll and every match ... until he was kept on an emill.

The genius who kept him on an emill did so to "put air" in Turbo, but the idiot failed to realize Turbo had great natural stamina and didn't need any help in getting more air. He fought slowly, ponderously, and economically ... and all the guy did was rail Turbo down (taking away his natural power, mouth, and body strength) and turned Turbo into a useless, weak, wet noodle ... who wobbled when you pet him he was so scrawny ... and (you guessed) Turbo lost that time around and was NOTHING compared to how he looked coming in from a slat mill and weight pulling.

Jack


Wonder how he trained him. I used e mill for a strong hard mouth bitch for up to 100 minutes, after 1,5 hour walk. She didnt lose any of her mouth or strength

[EWO]

On the grand scheme of things all the conditioning tools are inanimate useless objects taking up space. The next part is whether the guy knows how to not only use that particular piece of equipment but also how it is best applied to the individual dog being worked.

Ch. (4XW) Mims/DTA's Charlie just about peaked himself on the chain. He would turn his 12' to 14' chain into a flying jenny. He made lap after lap at a blistering pace. Our job was to sit in the chain spot of the next dog and rub him and in turn Charlie put in the hard laps. We hand walked and pulled chains as well.

After each of the wins, "How did you work him?". "Hand walking is the only thing we took him off the chain for". An accurate statement but one that does not tell the whole truth.

Used correctly and fitted to the dog, all of them work exceptionally well.

EWO

[Frank43]

Ewo

I just read through what you wrote. Especially this.

I knew a guy once who used the e-mill as the staple of his keep. He used variable speeds over different lengths of time. He still did some weight pulling (chains) for distance and time as well as a tire for shorter pulls. He used a flirt pole that was like 20ft. long. He could get the dog to burst back and forth going from zero to wide open for 20-30 feet and then reverse. Every day started with the emill and everyday ended with the emill. I seen several of his shows and his dogs were always in great shape. I gave the credit to the flirt pole but he put it on the emill. He 'believed' it was the emill so for him it was the emill.

2nd was the guy that turned me onto the dogs as a kid. He had a mill with an expanded wire cage built around it and a locking back door. No hook ups, no collars and no harness. He would turn it on really slow and it would roll the dog to the back of the cage. Within seconds he figured out he had to walk. He bumped the speed here and there. Within a couple of sessions the dog really had the idea.
After two, possibly three sessions it was the last time the dog ever saw the emill. The next session was on the slat mill and dog hit it running. He said the only thing the emill was good for was to teach a young dog to run on an off the ground surface. I can remember every 8-10 month old dog came off the chain to get his turns on the emill. Some of my best memories were the dogs just zinging the shit out of that slat mill. For that he gave credit to the emill.

EWO

I have started to work the Emil in to my a program to keep my dogs in shape. I don't think it is a complete tool at all. From what I remember from athletics it can't really train the complete athlete. Handwalking and roadwork is probably always the gold standard. I like walking in the woods with my dogs. Probably the best work. They are walking running jumping following scents. jumping over logs up and down river beds etc. during this time you get a lot of off axis loading. the difference between a weight lifter who bench presses and squats vs. one of the strongmen types that is throwing boulders or some other complex activity.

To me there are a couple of problems with this. There is a lot of wear and tear on the body and joints. I think the e-mill is better for training heart and lungs. None of my dogs have had the problems with pads they had biking or walking on the road. its easier to be consistent. I can give them three miles on there without worrying about getting hit by a car. You an control the rate to get them at a fast pace and then bring them to a slower pace and let them recover moving.

Its probably a form of work that is best for a slow twitch muscle type dog. Someone talked about a dog running hot within twenty minutes. it probably was running hot as much as it was muscular fatigue. Its like taking a marathon runner and putting him in a Mma contest. He's going to get killed. he won't be explosive or Strongs and his muscles aren't used to contracting against weight.

To me the mill is more like the boxer or Mma guy doing roadwork. He's doing Roadwork to build his underlying cardiac capacity. you can't work if you can't breathe and your heart isn't used to pumping at higher rates for prolonged periods of time. Once there is a cardiac reserve its good to think about other athletic requirements for your activity and how and where to get them.

as for your other dogs that ran the chain and put himself into shape all dogs are different. the dogman knows how to get each one what he needs

[Mordy]

The Emill could be a substitute for long hand walks for someone who doesn't have the time go for 2 to 4 hours walks daily. It's going to build an aerobic base same as a hand walk, good for fat loss. It's not going to replace the anaerobic work that a slatmill or jenny provide