View Full Version : W.I.C
CountryPete
02-10-2012, 04:45 PM
Jack and those who know. What program online is good to figure out this percentage? How is this ratio used to aid breeding? Thanks.
I would type the equation for you but on the android its not possible.
Really you got two types of wic:
STANDARD INBREEDING COEFFICIENT - includes only the subject's inbreeding in the first five generations
CUMULATIVE INBREEDING COEFFICIENT - includes all inbreeding in the subject's pedigree back as far as records allow (ten generations is perfect. IMO) (C.I.C is better than the S.I.C it gives a bigger picture!)
This might help you.
http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/
There is also Hardimans C.O.I calculated to two decimals (usually the difference between wrights and hardimans is .02 to point .03)
Wright's Equation and Hardiman's Method are both based on the principle that the inbreeding of an individual is one half the relationship of its sire and dam, however the calculations involve different data and so the inbreeding coefficients produced by them are not interchangeable and should not be compared with each other. Wright's Equation is haphazardly calculated to any number of generations, whereas Hardiman's Method is always calculated to five generations. Wright's Equation considers duplicated ancestors only if they are common to both sire and dam, whereas Hardiman's Method considers all duplicated ancestors. Wrights Equation considers inbred ancestors only if they are duplicated ancestors, whereas Hardiman's Method considers all inbred ancestors.
An inbreeding coefficient calculated using Wright's Equation is neither an estimation of the number of genes put into the homozygous state nor an estimation of the percentage of inbreeding. It is merely the probability that identical alleles will be inherited from ancestors common to both sire and dam.
Hope this helps a bit!
CountryPete
02-11-2012, 02:33 AM
@IPK, thank you for taking the time to explain that info. Especially on your phone.
Officially Retired
02-12-2012, 07:21 AM
Jack and those who know. What program online is good to figure out this percentage? How is this ratio used to aid breeding? Thanks.
Hi Pete;
This is the explanation I used to use on my old kennel website, back when I had it up. I think it explains the values (and limitations) of this calculation method pretty clearly:
The Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient can best be defined as "the probability that both genes of a pair in an individual are identical by descent," i.e., homozygous (the same). In other words a Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient of 20% means that a given dog has a 20% likelihood of having the identical genes as his parents. This probability must be VIEWED as a "probabilily," not a certainty. The genes your dog actually get, in the real world, might be totally different from this computer-projected "probability."
This calculated inbreeding coefficient is simply a function of the number (and location) of the common ancestors in a pedigree. It is not a function, except indirectly, of the inbreeding of the parents, per se, but of the relatedness of the whole background. Thus, one can mate two highly inbred individuals who share little common ancestry with each other and produce a litter with a very low Inbreeding Coefficient. (An example of this would be Diablo Rojo (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=69486), whose parents are both highly-inbred individuals themselves, but who are nonetheless totally unrelated to each other. Thus Diablo Rojo is almost a 100% straight outcross and thus his W.I.C. is very low.)
Conversely, it is possible to mate two dogs who, though not directly off of common parents, share a such similar genetic background in their ancestry, that (although both of the individuals themselves have low Inbreeding Coefficients), combining them together in a mating boosts the Inbreeding Coefficient of their pups substantially. An example of this would be Thunder (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=1040). His sire Poncho had a 16.54% W.I.C. ... and his mother Red Sonja had a 19.26% W.I.C. ... and neither had any common parents. But the relatedness of their entire genetic whole, when combined, boosted the W.I.C. of Thunder above both of his parents to 24.95%.
Like many other genetic calculations, the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient is based on probabilities, not certainties. An individual may actually be more (or less!) highly inbred than the number computed in the formula suggests, simply by the random genetic intangibles that no program can accurately duplicate. The Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient is to give you an idea of the relatedness of the TOTAL WHOLE of the genetic background, not a certainty. There is a difference between how "tight" a breeding is off a particular individual dog than there is as to how "tight" a breeding is in its entire genetic aggregate. The Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient is a more encompassing view of the tightness of "the whole genetic aggregate" than it is a mere glimpse of a percentage-breeding off of "an individual dog." To show what I mean by this, Misty Red (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=62198) and Space Man (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=67960) were both "75% Poncho dogs" ... meaning each animal was produced by Poncho being bred to one of his daughters. However, there was a 25% outcross in Misty Red's background, and so her Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient was only 29.40%. By contrast, Space Man was a 100% linebred individual, across the board, so his Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient was a much-higher 44.49%. Yet each dog was a product of a father/daughter Poncho breeding.
Thus the depth of value of the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient can be seen in its best light, as it encompasses more than just the tightness of a breeding on an "individual dog" (in this example, Poncho), but instead the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient focuses on the tightness of the GENETIC WHOLE.
Like any tool, the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient has very good practical use, but it should not be misused or misunderstood. Two dogs out of the same litter may share the same theoretical W.I.C. "on paper" ... but IN THE REAL WORLD one dog may happen to carry with it a substantially-greater "pull" from one side of its pedigree than its littermate brother or sister. For instance, Laguna Sunrise (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=118395) and Jezebel (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=25329) were littermates out of the same litter of Poncho to Screamer. Therefore, "on paper" these two sisters have "an identical" W.I.C. However, the physical reality is Laguna Sunrise carries a much greater "Hollingsworth" (or even Red Baby) GENETIC PULL AND EXPRESSION than did her sister Jezebel, who carried a much stronger "Poncho" pull in her actual physical expression and characteristics. So, again, use the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient as a tool, but do not be blinded by this tool; use your eyes in conjuntion with it.
In closing, as a general rule, a coefficient of 10% (or less) is a scatter-bred dog (or possibly a 100% straight outcross), where there is little relatedness in common amongst the entirety of BOTH parents' ancestries. A 10%-20% Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient is a somewhat linebred dog. Coefficients of 20%-35% are getting into some solid linebreeding in the genetic background, and anything with over a 35% W.I.C. is an intensely inbred/linebred animal.
Hope this provides some clarity!
Jack
CountryPete
02-13-2012, 04:04 PM
Jack,
Thank you for that explaination. I had heard the I.C. before but never knew exactly what and how it was used as an aid to breeding. I know your time explaining it will benefit others.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=48130 So this is scatter red, or out tossed?
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=48130 So this is scatter red, or out tossed?
I wouldn't click it that! :lol: I would call it very nice!
S_B
Lol... Not out tossed. Freaking thumbs too big for the phone keyboard... Meant out crossed.
Obviously mine are too because I meant to say I wouldn't CALL it that. lol
Looks like a miniature of his grandsire on his dam's side.
Infidel77
05-22-2015, 06:53 AM
In closing, as a general rule, a coefficient of 10% (or less) is a scatter-bred dog (or possibly a 100% straight outcross), where there is little relatedness in common amongst the entirety of BOTH parents' ancestries. A 10%-20% Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient is a somewhat linebred dog. Coefficients of 20%-35% are getting into some solid linebreeding in the genetic background, and anything with over a 35% W.I.C. is an intensely inbred/linebred animal.[/list]
Hope this provides some clarity!
Jack
SZ82, as Jack said, here is the general rule on whether a dog is scatter-bred or linebred. If you look in the lower right column, directly under the pedigree statistics of the dog you listed, http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=48130 , you'll see you have a coefficient of 9.375%, a scatter-bred dog.
Dang... Oh, well... We'll see what he does anyway.
Officially Retired
05-22-2015, 02:49 PM
SZ82, as Jack said, here is the general rule on whether a dog is scatter-bred or linebred. If you look in the lower right column, directly under the pedigree statistics of the dog you listed, http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=48130 , you'll see you have a coefficient of 9.375%, a scatter-bred dog.
That's at 4-generations.
When using the WIC, it's important to use the full function of the database and drop down 10- 15-generations.
In this particular case, the WIC doesn't jump much higher (13%+), but I've seen it go from negligible to highly-inbred once the full relatedness of the background is taken into account by the deeper search.
Jack
He's a beautiful pup in any case. See what he'll be as an adult, and go from there. Just wasn't sure since he has the triple bred top and bottom what he'd be considered.
I'm no guru....but I'm not seeing this dog (SZ82's) as a scatter bred dog at all. To hell with what the WIC says. To me this is a heavy ELI, BOLIO (several strains) dog with some influences from Jeep (more ELI), RB, Jocko & CHINAMAN ( more ELI).
So I'd call it a family cross or JETHRO dog, or whatever other fancy name ya'll would label that type of breeding.
S_B
That's what I thought, too, S_B. That's why I was curious as to what percentages would be considered scattered. And looking at him, I can clearly see the Jethro and Buck (from the dam's side) so if you can see where the genes are coming from, how's it scattered? But I didn't want to argue the point, because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the W.I.C says, long as I have an idea where I'd go from here, if he works out.