View Full Version : Breaking down a pedigree
Ok I know this is a site for game dogs and this a show line but I come here for a much better chance of learning every aspect of these dogs. So I'm looking at this breeding and I'm ape shit crazy for the female but just not as happy about the male. I like him but I'm hoping for more of the females drive and structure. So I'm asking for the pedigree experts to help me break this pedigree down and tell me what you would expect from such a tight line breeding with a small out.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=283497
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=393042
As much as it shouldn't matter I hate a dalutie color but he is correct and well driven Thanks everyone for the help
for you, hopefully another good show dog. when you break it down there's show dogs and more show dogs, lot of them go back to ofrn(hemphill/wilders), but i doubt they are much like them, not much to predict really.. maybe someone else can fill u in.
not saying shows dogs cant be, if you're looking for a very driven dog, imo best go for a more like working stock apbt.
Officially Retired
03-03-2012, 05:07 PM
I would love to help, but unfortunately there is simply no way for me to break down a pedigree involving a collection of dogs I have never laid eyes on. I haven't even read about the dogs involved, nor do I know anyone who has them.
One thing I can tell you, though, it there is no "one" result that obtains from "tight breedings with a small out."
Everything (literally, everything) is all dependent upon selection. One such breeding may yield common results, another may yield horrible results, while still another may yield exemplary results. Thus, again, it all boils down to selection ... meaning which dog's you're using.
I wish I knew more about the dogs involved to provide better feedback, but I simply do not.
Jack
Jack thanks again once again you put things in away anyone can understand.
QCKLime
03-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Dilute
A recessive mutation in the melanophilin (MLPH) gene was identified as the cause of color dilution phenotypes in the dog. Two alleles (variants) are described: the dominant full color (D) and the recessive dilute (d). Two copies of dilute are needed to lighten black pigment to grey (often called blue) and red pigment to cream (also called buff). A diagnostic DNA test identifies the specific variants of the MLPH gene.
Results from the DILUTE test are reported as:
D/D Full color, no dilute gene present
D/d Full color, carries 1 copy of the dilute gene
d/d Dilute, 2 copies of the dilute gene
Reference:
Drögemüller C, U. Philipp, B. Haase, A-R Günzel-Apel & T Leeb. A noncoding melanophilin gene (MLPH) SNP at the splice donor of exon 1 represents a candidate causal mutation for coat color dilution in dogs. Journal of Heredity 98(5):468-473 (2007).
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According to the previous, it's unlikely that your litter should have any dilute colored puppies, especially given the fact that it doesn't appear that he threw any dilute colored dogs out of a breeding to a similarly colored bitch. I didn't see any immediate relatives of the mother that LOOK to carry a dilute gene, so you're likely to get a lot of Chocolate colored babies. And, if the X Factor theory that's been discussed on here before holds water, puppies inherit many phyiscal characteristics from their mother rather than their father, so you may be in luck in that area as well -- though I think both of the parents are built beautifully.
As far as personality or drive, Jack covered all of that in his post. There's simply no way to know from looking at a pedigree.
scratchin dog
03-04-2012, 10:27 PM
Since selection is so important, perhaps you can find a similar bred stud with more of the qualities you are looking for.
wrknapbt
03-05-2012, 02:11 AM
Ok I know this is a site for game dogs and this a show line but I come here for a much better chance of learning every aspect of these dogs. So I'm looking at this breeding and I'm ape shit crazy for the female but just not as happy about the male. I like him but I'm hoping for more of the females drive and structure. So I'm asking for the pedigree experts to help me break this pedigree down and tell me what you would expect from such a tight line breeding with a small out.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=283497
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=393042
As much as it shouldn't matter I hate a dalutie color but he is correct and well driven Thanks everyone for the help
I know this family of dogs pretty good and can tell you that you will get show dogs only not go dogs. The drive will be low and they really do make good all around pets type dogs that you can do some ob, agility and some light weight pull. But that is not to say you will not have a chance at getting a drivy one once in a while. To better you chances get the first pick puppy and do your best to get it as soon as possible so that you can build the drive early and try and keep it going. If you have any questions PM me
Thank you I see what ur saying.
Dilute
A recessive mutation in the melanophilin (MLPH) gene was identified as the cause of color dilution phenotypes in the dog. Two alleles (variants) are described: the dominant full color (D) and the recessive dilute (d). Two copies of dilute are needed to lighten black pigment to grey (often called blue) and red pigment to cream (also called buff). A diagnostic DNA test identifies the specific variants of the MLPH gene.
Results from the DILUTE test are reported as:
D/D Full color, no dilute gene present
D/d Full color, carries 1 copy of the dilute gene
d/d Dilute, 2 copies of the dilute gene
Reference:
Drögemüller C, U. Philipp, B. Haase, A-R Günzel-Apel & T Leeb. A noncoding melanophilin gene (MLPH) SNP at the splice donor of exon 1 represents a candidate causal mutation for coat color dilution in dogs. Journal of Heredity 98(5):468-473 (2007).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the previous, it's unlikely that your litter should have any dilute colored puppies, especially given the fact that it doesn't appear that he threw any dilute colored dogs out of a breeding to a similarly colored bitch. I didn't see any immediate relatives of the mother that LOOK to carry a dilute gene, so you're likely to get a lot of Chocolate colored babies. And, if the X Factor theory that's been discussed on here before holds water, puppies inherit many phyiscal characteristics from their mother rather than their father, so you may be in luck in that area as well -- though I think both of the parents are built beautifully.
As far as personality or drive, Jack covered all of that in his post. There's simply no way to know from looking at a pedigree.
Ok so stepping back and reading and asking questions I must say I think Ive actually learned a little bit.
It makes me happy to say I can see the breeding trend here. 75% - 25%. Hmmm time to dig some more. I can see on paper what dog she felt had the most positive influence but now I want to understand why. Thanks Jack your book and forum are amazing teaching tool. It will never replace hands on face to face teaching ( schooling ) but still thanks
Lol I feel like I just learned to speak Spanish I've been around this dogs for almost 20 yrs and learned more in 2 months then all that time combined.
Officially Retired
03-08-2012, 07:13 PM
Ok so stepping back and reading and asking questions I must say I think Ive actually learned a little bit.
That's the idea of making you think :idea:
It makes me happy to say I can see the breeding trend here. 75% - 25%. Hmmm time to dig some more. I can see on paper what dog she felt had the most positive influence but now I want to understand why.
Sounds like you've been doing some reading :D
The first step in learning how to read a pedigree is to begin to see breeding patterns emerge. Then you look for relatedness amongst the dogs (forget about different "human owners"), pay attention to the dog blood. For example Crum's Cremator and Anderson's Ch Tonka sound like two completely different dogs ... because they're owned by completely different "human names" ... but if you pay attention to the dog blood, you will see they're littermates, both being sired by Tombstone and Red Baby. So forget the "human names" behind the dogs, just pay attention to how they're bred. The final step is either personally getting to know (or at least getting reputable first hand info on) each of the dogs in the pedigrees.
All of these things are necessary to understand a pedigree ... without which a person is just babbling-off names like a parrot (meaning, he really doesn't understand what's behind the words he's saying).
Thanks Jack your book and forum are amazing teaching tool. It will never replace hands on face to face teaching ( schooling ) but still thanks
Well, thank you very much for saying so ... and for actually taking the time to read what I have put up there. I agree, first hand knowledge and schooling are best, but it sure helps to be pointed in the right direction!
For example, I could not get rid of all the "spammers" that were joining here on this forum, and I had no idea what to do at first. But after I read the appropriate material, I was then pointed in the right direction as to what to do ... but it was still up to me to go do it.
But my taking the time to read the instruction made it A THOUSAND TIMES EASIER to deal with and handle correctly, than trying to figure out what to do from scratch!
And that is exactly why I have created this resource ... and will forever build upon it ... is to put everything a person needs to know "right here" ... all in chronological order and sequence, thereby making everything easier and better for sincere dogmen and women ... and therefore better for their dogs.
Cheers :cheers:
Officially Retired
03-08-2012, 07:20 PM
Lol I feel like I just learned to speak Spanish I've been around this dogs for almost 20 yrs and learned more in 2 months then all that time combined.
That is nice to hear, and I am glad you feel that way.
Reminds me of when Sugar Ray Leonard lost to the legendary Duran the first time ... but fought hard for the full 15 rounds ... Leonard said, "That was like a 5-year boxing lesson in one fight." ... and came back and whipped Duran :pirate:
Jack
STONEWALL
03-17-2012, 10:27 PM
Abe,
If you really like your bitch but not the dog don't breed to him. You can breed well conformed dogs with the drive you seek. It is called upgrading. Breed your bitch to a dog with the drive you're looking for. Move forward with the bitches that come from the breeding. The ones that have the conformation and the drive breed back to their sire for more drive. Repeat the process again and again. Selection is the key. What you put in is what you will get out.
Thx stonewall I wish these where my dogs I'm looking at getting a pup out of that litter. Thanks for the info
apeman
02-11-2020, 08:02 AM
Bump up for 2020...