Frisco line

[lbd]

In your opinions what traits do you like and dislike in the Frisco line? All opinions, comments, and advice welcome

Thanks in advance

[Officially Retired]

This may not be a popular opinion, but I do have first-hand experience dealing with a few Frisco dogs, and I saw the Frisco dog himself personally on Garner's yard back in 1990.

With that said, I personally would have never based my yard on a shy dog like Frisco. Yes, I realize the dog has produced multiple Champions, but considering that he has thousands of offspring that really doesn't mean much. I have seen several painfully-shy Frisco dogs, but I also realize that there are outgoing Frisco dogs as well.

On the good end, if you get a good Frisco dog, you should have a high-ability dog with an excellent mouth and it will be at least game enough to win (while it's ahead). While I know there are game individuals of this bloodline, I don't believe any knowledgeable dogman would call this a high-percentage-game line of dogs. But if you have a good animal of this line, it should be an athletic (possibly devastating) animal with enough gameness to win. Yet even some of these will be shy dogs, though there are "normal" dogs of this line too.

On the bad end, if you get a bad Frisco dog, you well get a painfully-shy useless animal that is afraid of its own shadow. I was told directly by Ed Faron, Garner's friend at the time, that Frisco himself was so shy he couldn't even be rolled in front of a crowd and would freeze-up and not scratch if there was any noise. What I myself saw of the animal was a dog that was always on the wrong side of the chain (meaning, instead of coming up to you to be petted ... was hiding in fear of you on the other side of his chain spot).

It is my personal opinion that, no matter how devastating a dog like this might be ... if you allow him to be in a perfect world in his own chain space (where no one makes any noise) ... that out in the real world of open competition where scream and make noise at pitside the dog couldn't cut it (which is why he was given to Garner) ... and so I would not consider such an animal to be "what I want to make more of" ...

That is said with no bad motives, but it is my honest opinion.

Jack

[Hurstmob]

I have had it crossed with Jeep Redboy blood two different ways, One off a son of Elmo bred to a daughter of Gr. Ch A.C., the other was off of Garner and Powers Diesel(Ch. Dynomite littermate brother)bred to a daughter of St. Benedicts Baiey who was a 50/50 Jeep Redboy/Frisco cross herself. They were really intense dogs who knew how to finish although the one off of Diesel was a complete madman he was extremly fight crazy and would bite you if not released quick enough. I Really like that cross everyway I had it it worked.Had some stuff down from Mojo that I think was the best, those dogs were the only dogs I had that were not crosses, the line was kept true and not peddled like a lot of other Frisco dogs

[skipper]

Some of the gamest, and overall best dogs I've seen came down from the frisco/lee ling stuff. Don't know much about frisco dogs of today. But I seriously doubt they are of the quality as they were in the 90's

[Officially Retired]

I have had it crossed with jeep redboy two different ways,they were really nice dogs. Really like that cross had some stuff down from Mojo that I think was the best, the line was kept true and not peddled like a lot of other Frisco dogs.


I have heard that Kelly's Mojo Rising (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6787) really did produce some good, game dogs too ... which only goes to show that there are certain pockets of any line that are superior to others. These same dogmen didn't like the Frisco dogs in general, but yet they made Champion with MacGuyver (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6786).



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Some of the gamest, and overall best dogs I've seen came down from the frisco/lee ling stuff. Don't know much about frisco dogs of today. But I seriously doubt they are of the quality as they were in the 90's

I have heard by some who saw dogs like Gr CH Shotsie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2688), and there can be no doubt these were truly great dogs, though there was a lot of extra top-shelf Bolio blood in there to help them be that way.

I know Ed Center has some good Frisco blood that he likes, and I actually owned a bitch of his named Blade (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7824), who was a solid bitch (albeit a little shy). I bred her to my U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540) dog and got some pretty good dogs out of it. Ed's a good dogman who keeps his dogs to high standard.

I guess as with any mass-produced line there are going to be pockets of them that are held to a high standard, and so really are excellent dogs, while most are going to be paper-bred nothings, forever being bred & changing hands amongst the masses.

Jack

[skipper]

Nice looking dogs there jack. We've had good results with Frisco crosses.
REMO`S GORM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=255723) This one is one of the best dogs I've seen. Beat 2 really good ones, Facedog and a finisher to boot.

FEZ! (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=373321) This one beat a ch and a 1xw. Hell of a dog.

KELSO! (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=378727) THE gamest dog I've seen. Won over a 1 xw in over 2hours.

The missing dog in the pedigree is this one. (EVOLUTION KNLS)MACHO (1XW) ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=36992)

[AmberLamps]

Very nice dogs there Skipper.

I'v also owned dogs from the same Novosel Frisco/Leeling blood that you have in your dogs pedigrees. One of the gamest dogs, if not the gamest i'v ever owned was from that blood, funny though as he was the exact polar opposite of what i'v read and heard a Frisco dog should be.

[skipper]

Thank you. I don't know what Frisco dogs are supposed to be like. But i certainly like these ones. Tough and all round gamedogs, very capable of handling pressure. And the frank white stuff goes very well with it.

[Officially Retired]

Nice looking dogs there jack. We've had good results with Frisco crosses.
REMO`S GORM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=255723) This one is one of the best dogs I've seen. Beat 2 really good ones, Facedog and a finisher to boot.


You're welcome and thank you for sharing your pedigrees too. (FYI, I went ahead and altered the pedigrees to the "public" version so everyone could see them ;) )

That Gorm dog is seriously lean and slick-looking! However, genetically-speaking (while I do see the Frisco blood there through the intensely-bred Dunder) ... there is more Bolio/Tombstone blood in Gorm than anything else.





FEZ! (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=373321) This one beat a ch and a 1xw. Hell of a dog.


And he looks it!

There is lots of old Bolio/Tombstone blood running through this one too (though not quite as much), but the addition of the old Mt.Man blood makes it a bit different.





KELSO! (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=378727) THE gamest dog I've seen. Won over a 1 xw in over 2hours.
The missing dog in the pedigree is this one. (EVOLUTION KNLS)MACHO (1XW) ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=36992)

Nice-looking brother to Fez ... really spectacular physique on him 8)

They all really look like topshelf athletes, so thanks for sharing!

Jack

[skipper]

Thnx for the kind words Jack. I meant to put that into my post as well. I do not consider these dogs Frisco dogs per say, but I really like the Bolio/tombstone-Eli/carver blend. Just wanted to share these dogs purely out of the topic of this thread. Since we liked these dogs so much we are repeating this breeding very soon. Space is always an issue though.

[Officially Retired]

Thnx for the kind words Jack. I meant to put that into my post as well. I do not consider these dogs Frisco dogs per say, but I really like the Bolio/tombstone-Eli/carver blend. Just wanted to share these dogs purely out of the topic of this thread. Since we liked these dogs so much we are repeating this breeding very soon. Space is always an issue though.

Which breeding are you repeating, the one that produced Kelso and Fez?

[skipper]

Yes! Gorm / Miss Francess. There were one more male from that litter that lost in an hour against one of the top players out there.

[Officially Retired]

Which breeding are you repeating, the one that produced Kelso and Fez?


Nothing wrong with that.

[evolutionkennels]

KELSO! (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=378727) THE gamest dog I've seen. Won over a 1 xw in over 2hours.

The missing dog in the pedigree is this one. (EVOLUTION KNLS)MACHO (1XW) ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=36992)

Macho (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Macho.HTM) was my dog. He made ROM in just 4 breedings. I can tell you this. He was TO THIS DAY the HARDEST ROCKET SCRATCHING DOG that I have ever seen. His daughter Ch.Xena (http://http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=339836) (bred by your's truly) and son Ch.Awesomebuck were the same.. ROCKETS and deadgame. He was a PREPOTENT producer. He beat a dog that was going for his grandchampionship . That dog had beat Havannah Chico, Cuban Missing Link, and Strictly Business. Here is his pedigree (Diesel) (http://http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=47552) I think of that dog EVERY day. he was PERFECT! could finish EARLY, you couldn't HOLD him, and was a f*cking BEAUTIFUL SPECIMEN. I loved that dog. I then purchased his sister Macha (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Macha.HTM) who ended up putting me on the map when I bred her to Ch.357 to get Gr.Ch.Machobuck. (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Machobuck.HTM) I LOVED THAT DOG WITH ALL MY HEART, and up until Machobear II (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Machobear.HTM) came along, I never had one anything close to him. Just a piece of History fellas. With all due respect skipper, it is my FIRM opinion, that if that dog was the gamest you ever saw, and the brother was an ACE, it had a large part to do with the Awesome Dolly bitch. Those dogs HAD IT ALL. That is the very reason that I am sticking to that line.

[skipper]

Thnx for your input evo. I don't doubt for a second that much of their quality's comes from Awesome dolly. Dunder was a super solid dog from one of the gamest frisco strains there is. Miss francess is a serious bitch. Probably one the most devastating bitches I've seen. The point is,there are solid dogs behind this breeding. But I'm with you. I really like the blood that comes with the dolly bitch.

[AlienInvasion]

Macho (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Macho.HTM) was my dog. He made ROM in just 4 breedings. I can tell you this. He was TO THIS DAY the HARDEST ROCKET SCRATCHING DOG that I have ever seen. His daughter Ch.Xena (http://http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=339836) (bred by your's truly) and son Ch.Awesomebuck were the same.. ROCKETS and deadgame. He was a PREPOTENT producer. He beat a dog that was going for his grandchampionship . That dog had beat Havannah Chico, Cuban Missing Link, and Strictly Business. Here is his pedigree (Diesel) (http://http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=47552) I think of that dog EVERY day. he was PERFECT! could finish EARLY, you couldn't HOLD him, and was a f*cking BEAUTIFUL SPECIMEN. I loved that dog. I then purchased his sister Macha (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Macha.HTM) who ended up putting me on the map when I bred her to Ch.357 to get Gr.Ch.Machobuck. (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Machobuck.HTM) I LOVED THAT DOG WITH ALL MY HEART, and up until Machobear II (https://home.comcast.net/~evolutionknls/Machobear.HTM) came along, I never had one anything close to him. Just a piece of History fellas. With all due respect skipper, it is my FIRM opinion, that if that dog was the gamest you ever saw, and the brother was an ACE, it had a large part to do with the Awesome Dolly bitch. Those dogs HAD IT ALL. That is the very reason that I am sticking to that line.

WOW! Very nice History! 8)

[evolutionkennels]

Thnx for your input evo. I don't doubt for a second that much of their quality's comes from Awesome dolly. Dunder was a super solid dog from one of the gamest frisco strains there is. Miss francess is a serious bitch. Probably one the most devastating bitches I've seen. The point is,there are solid dogs behind this breeding. But I'm with you. I really like the blood that comes with the dolly bitch.

These dogs have done well and seem to be phenomenal. However. I would not call them Frisco Dogs. I would call them Bolio-Tombstone X Chinaman dogs. On the topside of KELSO, Dunder is is 62.5% Chinaman, 50% Frisco, and 34.3% Bolio-Tombstone. When they bred that to Awesome Dolly, it made it 31.25% Chinaman and only 25% Frisco, and 48.4% Bolio-Tombstone adding 18.75% Redboy-Jocko to the mix. Take that and breed it to the the Miss Francis female and you get 12.5% Frisco only. but you add more Chinaman through the Earl Jr stuff. That is where it gets interesting. Frances is 37.5% Chinaman and 25% Bolio-Tombstone through Garner's Spice, 25% Spider Bitem POR, and is 0% Frisco.

The pedigree breakdown is that those dogs are 36.7% Bolio-Tombstone, 34.375% Chinaman, 12.5% Spider Bitem POR, 12.5% Frisco only, 9.375&% Redboy-Jocko through Awesome Dolly. What probably makes it work is that the Bolio-Tombstone in Lee Ling clicks with the Hollingsworth in Awesome Dolly AND Garner's Spice on the bottom side. You CANNOT call these Frisco dogs being that the genetic contribution is only 12.5%, if you do that.. you might as well say it's a redboy-jocko dog since it is only a few points lesser percentage (9.375%). Frisco plays a VERY small role in this breeding.

[skipper]

I appreciate your input, but I've never called these dogs Frisco dogs. As I said in an earlier post "Frisco crosses" meaning the Gorm dog. I am fully aware that Kelso and Fez aren't Frisco dogs. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. Just wanted to show what that Frisco/lee ling cross (gorm) Not only what he accomplished as a performer but also as a producer. If the topic would've been Chinaman or Bolio/tombstone dogs I would've posted these dogs here as well.

[Milky]

I got dogs bred down from the Novosel stuff also and it have worked out good for me aswell. Alot of people are bashing and talking smack about the dogs but the records speaks for itself. The dogs are out there and doing well !

[bulldogsrus]

Me Too, we got dogs directly off Novosel that he got directly off TG. They was good all round dogs, plenty game, good mouth and high prey drive.

[Strip]

I had own that was just like that he would destoy a dog if it was just me and him, but in a crowd he would be to scared to even move. Then i have some that will bite the shit out of you too.

[Maxx Kennels]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6821

Never really liked the Frisco stuff till I saw this one. Game and rough!

So we added her to our program.

[HateBreed]

Not my kind of dogs these frisco's
These are some that made huge impact in South Africa.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_offspring.php?dog_id=5337&sex_id=2

[Officially Retired]

As I mentioned a few months back, I owned a fairly heavy (59.375%) Frisco bitch named Center's Blade (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7824). She produced a DG winner for me when bred to my U-Nhan-Rha (www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7824) dog.

Ability-wise, she was strong but average, and temperament-wise she was mildly shy, but not too bad.

[Dogman]

There are good and bad dogs in every line. Although some may have higher percentages in there line then others , it is not due to the line in itself but based more on each individual breeders yard.

[thefoodchain]

Ca Jack I must say here publicly that you're a class act. The truth is T.G. Is a good friend and confidante. When my brother and wife battled cancer he was there, my Mom passed on to glory. He was there so it's hard to see and read people tear at the character of a friend. Many years ago I asked T.G. For an opinion on you. And he was very complementary. He admired your brain. I asked cause at the time I was looking to add some "Poncho" blood to the yard back when you were in the volunteer state of Tennessee. So no matter how much people hate on T.G. & California Jack. You guys are still at the top of the food chain. IMHO.

[Pedhelper]

What is your opinion on this kind of frisco cross?

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=5322

[No Quarter Kennel]

I think that is a good cross. We have some dogs that are CH Spike blood with some Tonka Red Baron blood and they are some good dogs.

BDB has a lot of good dogs with Frisco blood mixed up with the Alligator blood too.

[skipper]

You shold get some match dogs right there!

[apbtmet]

I dont use this blood anymore ........good and bad ones like other lines....had two that really excelled

[ResidentKennel]

Years ago when I was introduced to bulldogs, a guy I was aquatinted with purchased a 2xw from someone who found himself on hard times. He was a son of Kelly's Mojo Rising. A big brindle male who was calm and alway's quiet. He had a great disposition about him. The new owners yard was't far from my friends yard, so they would often school dogs together. One day the owner come home to find Lil Mojo missing. None of his other dogs were touched so he thought someone stole him. Surely, if he got loose he would have came home to a blood bath. The neighbors haven't seen or heard any suspicious vehicles, so the thief must have walked through the woods. He came to my friends house and asked us if we heard his dogs or saw anything. We said know and began asking others and looking for the dog. My friends son told us he saw a big dog loose walking into the woods. Believe it or not, when we found him he was siting in a corner of the box that they used to school dogs in. He walked through two dog yards and didn't touch a single dog only to go and jump in the box. I haven't seen a Frisco dog since then that I have liked as much as I liked that one. My kennel partner and I have purchased dogs off of El Negro and Dynamite hoping to get another Lil Mojo but nothing has worked out so far.

[ResidentKennel]

Lil Mojo was 4 or 5 when he was purchased and this was around 99 or 2000

[GAMEWARDEN]

Kelly is a very good friend of mine as well as the guys from krunch. Impo the best of the mojo dogs come when you add Kelly's taz in the mix. Ch macguyver, ch Meister, ch Bentley, marley, satch(2:12 winner after an hr & 1/2 beating) etc etc all are descendants of taz. I also think when krunch bred hootens miss chinaman to mojo and chinaboy they produced some very important dogs. Obviously the mojo x little cow breeding produced gr ch Goldie who was a hell of a dog! There were a couple from those breedings that were 2hr dogs. Goldie was just to much of a monster to have to go that long. Why she was not bred to Meister or macguyver still has me shaking my head to this day.

[GAMEWARDEN]

Years ago when I was introduced to bulldogs, a guy I was aquatinted with purchased a 2xw from someone who found himself on hard times. He was a son of Kelly's Mojo Rising. A big brindle male who was calm and alway's quiet. He had a great disposition about him. The new owners yard was't far from my friends yard, so they would often school dogs together. One day the owner come home to find Lil Mojo missing. None of his other dogs were touched so he thought someone stole him. Surely, if he got loose he would have came home to a blood bath. The neighbors haven't seen or heard any suspicious vehicles, so the thief must have walked through the woods. He came to my friends house and asked us if we heard his dogs or saw anything. We said know and began asking others and looking for the dog. My friends son told us he saw a big dog loose walking into the woods. Believe it or not, when we found him he was siting in a corner of the box that they used to school dogs in. He walked through two dog yards and didn't touch a single dog only to go and jump in the box. I haven't seen a Frisco dog since then that I have liked as much as I liked that one. My kennel partner and I have purchased dogs off of El Negro and Dynamite hoping to get another Lil Mojo but nothing has worked out so far.

You got a good dog in little mojo. I loved that dog as a pup! He was a tall rangy pup but sounds like he filled out nicely.

[ChuckyDukes]

I owned 2 litter sisters to Lil Mojo. One became 2xw, 1xgl to a CH. One of the greatest displays of gamenees ever seen, wayyyy behind for nearly 2 hours, came back up top to earn the W. This over a big name in the game, in front of some of the biggest players in the games history.

[blood brothers]

Seen good hounds....no doubt they paper hung though....a bunch of redboy in them....met an european guy about 10 years ago that had a male of cottinghams redman bred to a double daughter of frisco....plus the look of the dogs changed and performance levels from atleast 12 years ago....if you are breeding a family of dogs they dont change all of a sudden without something being added....jack is right about the stuff from ed...they had a violent mouth but if they couldnt get in done in 30-45 they ran for the hills....addind your blood probably made them stick it out

[evolutionkennels]

Mike Kellys dogs absolutely not paper hung

[blood brothers]

Garner himself....i know some people who had the real dogs off frisco....never seen a mojo dog but heard nothing but good things on the line of hounds

[GAMEWARDEN]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33718

This dog is absolutely bred this way! Alive and well at 11yrs old.

[ROCK-MACHINE]

This may not be a popular opinion, but I do have first-hand experience dealing with a few Frisco dogs, and I saw the Frisco dog himself personally on Garner's yard back in 1990.

With that said, I personally would have never based my yard on a shy dog like Frisco. Yes, I realize the dog has produced multiple Champions, but considering that he has thousands of offspring that really doesn't mean much. I have seen several painfully-shy Frisco dogs, but I also realize that there are outgoing Frisco dogs as well.

On the good end, if you get a good Frisco dog, you should have a high-ability dog with an excellent mouth and it will be at least game enough to win (while it's ahead). While I know there are game individuals of this bloodline, I don't believe any knowledgeable dogman would call this a high-percentage-game line of dogs. But if you have a good animal of this line, it should be an athletic (possibly devastating) animal with enough gameness to win. Yet even some of these will be shy dogs, though there are "normal" dogs of this line too.

On the bad end, if you get a bad Frisco dog, you well get a painfully-shy useless animal that is afraid of its own shadow. I was told directly by Ed Faron, Garner's friend at the time, that Frisco himself was so shy he couldn't even be rolled in front of a crowd and would freeze-up and not scratch if there was any noise. What I myself saw of the animal was a dog that was always on the wrong side of the chain (meaning, instead of coming up to you to be petted ... was hiding in fear of you on the other side of his chain spot).

It is my personal opinion that, no matter how devastating a dog like this might be ... if you allow him to be in a perfect world in his own chain space (where no one makes any noise) ... that out in the real world of open competition where scream and make noise at pitside the dog couldn't cut it (which is why he was given to Garner) ... and so I would not consider such an animal to be "what I want to make more of" ...

That is said with no bad motives, but it is my honest opinion.

Jack

This is a letter that was sent to Jack Kelly,editor of The Sporting Dog Journal in May - June 1997.The letter was sent by a guy called CHAINSAW,and he writes:

Dear Journal-

I've heard one story after another about Garner's FRISCO over the past several years.I have heard that he was a 2X winner before he was sold in North Carolina and even that the current owner took him back because he had been mistreated by his former owner.I will tell everyone the truth because I was the fellow that owned FRISCO for a year and a half and I am the guy who sent him there.

FRISCO started out in the Bay Area of California at a couple of different dogmens yards.He was moved around so often because he was extremely shy and not kept in good health.It was up in Oregon in May of 1988 where a bunch of us gathered for a bbq. After we were through we decided to take a look at FRISCO.He disappointed everyone.His owner at the time V.R wanted to put him down right after he quit,but I talked him into letting me take him home and work with him a little.My brother and I did get him to come out of his shell a little but never to the point where we would have bet a dime on him winning a match.Since FRISCO'S mother,CHINA GIRL had quit in 15 minutes,we were very skeptical about FRISCO to start with.Finally,one day we decided to try FRISCO again,against a scatter bred dog that was sent to us by a friend in California.This dog had never been touched before,but was very hot and had weighed about 5lbs smaller than FRISCO.He tore into FRISCO and had him singing in three minutes.We separated them and tried to scratch FRISCO and he wouldn't scratch.My brother took the other dog who was screaming to go back,and I turned FRISCO loose.He just stood there and made no attempt to look for the other dog.I called V.R and told him and said that I should have gotten rid of him 18 months ago.He told me that Tom wanted the dog and the next day I shipped him to North Carolina.I had never been paid for the shipping charges or the kennel.I was given a pup off of FRISCO in what I took to be compensation for the shipping charges.He quit in 6 minutes.

If anyone finds this hard to believe,there are a lot of people who can verify what I have said.I'm not looking to start a ragging war with anyone,just to end the rumor's that I hear everyday about FRISCO.

CHAINSAW.

[EWO]

I would not doubt any of the story except the part about rolling him one day and shipping the next. Even in the best of times, that would never happen.

I too saw Frisco and was with a guy who bred to him on the old Bulldog Hill. Frisco was lively and outgoing on that particular day. He was not overly friendly nor was he overly outgoing but he was not at the other end of the chain spot like some describe.

By then maybe he had realized his lot in life was to be 'cootchie-getter' and not a 'go-getter and his demeanor was different. That I do not know.

Fortunately for the game someone bred the dog. There are tons and tons of winners off of him. Then there was a stretch where things went south. There were a lot of Frisco dogs that were devastating and had incredible finishing skills, but out of that bunch there were a lot that would walk away.

Tons of families go thru the same thing.

Then all of a sudden Frisco was throwing hard mouthed game dogs, both durable and with finish. My best guess is, like a fine wine, his sperm got better with time.

Most stud dogs who become famous have similar stories. A lot of time the dog catches the knock for the decision made by people.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

I would not doubt any of the story except the part about rolling him one day and shipping the next. Even in the best of times, that would never happen.

I too saw Frisco and was with a guy who bred to him on the old Bulldog Hill. Frisco was lively and outgoing on that particular day. He was not overly friendly nor was he overly outgoing but he was not at the other end of the chain spot like some describe.

By then maybe he had realized his lot in life was to be 'cootchie-getter' and not a 'go-getter and his demeanor was different. That I do not know.

Fortunately for the game someone bred the dog. There are tons and tons of winners off of him. Then there was a stretch where things went south. There were a lot of Frisco dogs that were devastating and had incredible finishing skills, but out of that bunch there were a lot that would walk away.

Tons of families go thru the same thing.

Then all of a sudden Frisco was throwing hard mouthed game dogs, both durable and with finish. My best guess is, like a fine wine, his sperm got better with time.

Most stud dogs who become famous have similar stories. A lot of time the dog catches the knock for the decision made by people.

EWO

Unless there is any merit to the stories of T.G. using TVK'S Rusty Rebel (Cottingham/Boudreaux') who had a stay on Bulldog Hill while his owner was on "vacation". Bull-Finch who was staying in T.G.s guest house for a time swears up and down he and T.G. bred the balls off of Rusty during his stay. I guess it all boils down to what one wants to believe. Wonder though what traits a Cottingham/Boudreaux'/Frisco/Lee Ling cross would throw eh. Not my blood so it makes no difference to me either side T.G.'s or Bull-Finch's, for ''conversation'' sake though....

https://i.imgur.com/YwWsbYO.jpg

I have over the years spoken to both T.G. and Bull-Finch on more then one bulldog subject, listened to stories from both men.

When asked about Rusty Rebel, T.G. goes off on a chest beating rant and his truth is the dog was never bred during his stay on Bulldog Hill. Bull-Finch for his part has always quietly maintained his truth on the subject and has/and does still work with a Cottingham/Boudreaux'/Frisco cross.

I also had a chance to talk with TVK and when asked about Rusty Rebel, TVK was of a mind that his dog was better then any Frisco bred dog, when asked about weather or not he felt T.G. had bred Rusty to any of his bitches and registered them as being off of Frisco he just laughed and said no comment.

Again though, if you run the blood it's up to you to decided for yourself who's truth it is that you want to believe. From what I have seen online people defend T.G. like he was kin to them and his word is as good as gospel, I guess his word alone is good enough for them and if they feed something off of his yard, that's all that really matters is what they want to believe.

https://youtu.be/8t7rQNUFUGU

[Targo]

Great read, much appreciated thanks

[EWO]

My buddy had Ch. Caballo. Off of Dynomite. Caballo looked like Dynomite was bred to Rusty and those two males threw Caballo.

It was said Caballo was so smart/so good that if he could drive and count money, he would go out solo.

The guy that worked him had a lifetime of experience crossing just about every strain of Red Boy to Eli dogs. His Cottinham/Eli dogs looked a lot like Caballo and Rusty, but more importantly they were extremely intense, hard mouthed dogs who stayed on top of the muzzle, just about between the eyes. Not a defensive minded head dog but a punishing type head dog. Just like Caballo, just like Rusty and from what I heard, just like Dyniomite.

But like you said, people can believe what they want. Personally, I could care less. The few dogs I have seen off of Dynomite I could care less if he was papered off a Labra-doodle. They were certainly going and they had ill intentions when they got there.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

My buddy had Ch. Caballo. Off of Dynomite. Caballo looked like Dynomite was bred to Rusty and those two males threw Caballo.

It was said Caballo was so smart/so good that if he could drive and count money, he would go out solo.

The guy that worked him had a lifetime of experience crossing just about every strain of Red Boy to Eli dogs. His Cottinham/Eli dogs looked a lot like Caballo and Rusty, but more importantly they were extremely intense, hard mouthed dogs who stayed on top of the muzzle, just about between the eyes. Not a defensive minded head dog but a punishing type head dog. Just like Caballo, just like Rusty and from what I heard, just like Dyniomite.

But like you said, people can believe what they want. Personally, I could care less. The few dogs I have seen off of Dynomite I could care less if he was papered off a Labra-doodle. They were certainly going and they had ill intentions when they got there.

EWO

I had a chance a long ways back to talk to Mr. R. and asked among other's about Conan and he described him the same way, with emphasis on Conan being scary smart.

Conan's son Ch Mr. Jaw-Bone showed all the same traits as well.
https://i.imgur.com/ZthEHku.jpg

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Mike Kellys dogs absolutely not paper hung


Another very reputable breeder of Frisco-Chinaman blood is Mr. King, either him or Mr. Kelly and you can't go wrong.

[Osagedogman2015]

As with all of these dogs being mentioned, I have no idea if they are bred the way they are registered, or if they are paper hung. I have had experience with this son of Frisco and I really liked him. My only regret is not keeping more dogs off of him and breeding to him more when I had the chance to do so. The 3rd picture of him (the one with Garner's Rooster in the picture) was taken when he was visiting my yard one summer day. I thought him to be a very game acting dog that threw that quality and more in his offspring.

Garner's Rooster
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=22121

[TrailerTrash]

Ive had Kelly , Mr.Bill, Hunterman at my house good crew up the North East . That being said I'd leave first names out of this site . Just my humble opinion , think he is out of the dogs anyway

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Ive had Kelly , Mr.Bill, Hunterman at my house good crew up the North East . That being said I'd leave first names out of this site . Just my humble opinion , think he is out of the dogs anyway

All are common knowledge, none do the dogs and all as breeders are known to anyone with a computer, no different then T.G.'s Pup Mart ,only difference is they are ''hobby'' breeders and don't self promote or run a high end puppy mill.

>>>>>>>>>Point Taken though and Posts Edited<<<<<<<<<<<

[Osagedogman2015]

--- Articles from the SDJ around 1997 ---

Dear Journal,
It seems that everyone is knocking Frisco lately..Why?? So chainsaw writes a story about what a poor dog Frisco is-what difference does it make??Nobody ever claimed Frisco is,or ever has been a ace match dog..What he is,is a producer of hardmouth match dogs..Alot of people claim that all he throws are curs,but I know different!!! I have matched more than a couple of dogs sired by Frisco and seen alot more than that.My opinion is that...when you get a good Frisco dog you got a first class dog all the way..Mouth,ability,natural air,even gameness..Put a Frisco dog in condition,and he can run with anyone-miss his keep however,and he'll probably shoot his wad and end up losing..So what?? No line of dogs is invincible..As for his record of producing,you cant say it was made in Taiwan..I campaigned a little bitch off Frisco into the best I could find and made her a champuion..I tried to match her into at least 6 champions for matches 3 and 4 and everyone told me that their bitch was retired..Now everyone might think that Im a big Frisco fan..Im not..My own taste runs more to the Buster blood,but Im not stupid or Knl blind..I'll run what I think can win..Its that simple,and you can win with a Frisco dog in goos condition..
Milk INC.



Dear Journal,
This letter is in responce to chainsaws comments on Frisco..I lived in the Portland area when Frisco was rolled and he never stopped..He would go across and not take hold,so we put him on the chain and decided to try him at another time..In Nevada he was rolled into Lever Red a hard mouthed dog,but Frisco was biting awfully hard and we decided to pick Lever Red up and start a IV on him..But Frisco never quit..We decided to send him to Mr Garner to use as a stud dog because Frisco's brother Chinatom had died..
Shaman



Dear Journal,
In reply to chainsaw and southpaw knls,your both trying to put Frisco down for making ROM..Everyone knows that Jeep's sire quit,as did Bullyson..Last but not least a son & daughter of Frisco both won in over 2hrs..Frisco's record is 81 wins,19 losses,10 of them were picked up game,and ONLY 9 quit...
G.Braswell


Dogmen,
I met Mike Williams a long time ago and helped him get into the dogs and brought him places with me introduced him to people and even helped him start his dogfood business..All of which he ruined..Chinagirl did quit on top in her old age with no teeth,which is no excuse which really suprised me as she took a big beating at Steve H's house earlier in life and showed very game..About Frisco,we rolled him first in Oregon with K.Fee,R.Terry,was there and Terrys dog was in deep trouble in 15min and Frisco almost killed him..2 mo later in Oregon we rolled him again and Gene P and Alex from Canada ws there..Frisco hit the shoulder and in 7min they had to bury there dog..About 1mo later we bumped him again..Like always he hit the shoulder then he went to the dick and flopped down like he was unconscious even though he always scratched hard..He showed no signs of quitting and he acted funny like this for the next couple of rolls..From my expierience and from talking to oldtimers I beleive he was rubbed the 1st time and he remembered it later..
I wanted to see for sure if this was a rub,or if he was not a honest dog,so after another 6mo in which time his brother Chinatom became a 2xw by beating a 5xw we tried to run Frisco off and used a big dog names Lever Red who was at least 12lbs bigger and rough with a very hard mouth and strong that had pulled the shoulders out of xx's dog in 12min..This was maybe the best roll I ever saw..They hit stifle to stifle doing terrible damage and Greg T,Shaman,Mike W and me were there..Greg said to me at 20min that we better pick up the big dog..I said let it go,but shaman who worked on dogs medicaly as a ace said if we did not do it now it would be to late as Lever reds eyes were rolling up in his head and he was going into shock..We had to put a IV in to save Lever Red..Frisco scratched hard and true through out this roll and showed only game signs..It was clear that he was rubbed before and that he was a real bulldog..
My good friendship with Garner is such that I send him dogs if they might help his breeding program..When I sent Frisco to to TG MW was very mad at me as he wanted the dog and claimed the dog was his..I gave mike $200 cash to send him to TG..MW bred to Frisco before he sent him..I did not let him keep the dog..Dogs at his house lived in there own shit,and had sores and if he would steal another mans dog then Frisco might end up missing..How do I know so much about Him?? I lived down the street from him and everyday I saw how he kept his dogs,and made his dogfood..One day I stopped by his house and saw a dog I knew from another yard..I asked him about it and he told me how he stole it and changed the papers on it..He bred this dog to WhiteHead which produced a dog named Rex that sold for big bucks..Whoever owns Rex can contact me and I will tell you the true breeding on your dog..
Whenevr someone finds out their dogs are stolen anything can happen..I started to understand that MW would lie,cheat and do anything and whoever came looking for him,my wife and child might be at his house if shooting started..I saw how mike screwed so many people so many times and knew it was just a matter of time..In Oregon Mike screwed some guys and the Tinman wanted to punch his ticket...I talked to the Tinman and like so many times before I covered for him because he was my friend and I was loyal to him..Mikes main problem is that he is lazy and tries to cut corners in everything he does but wants respect..But if you know him you dont respect him..He is very jealous of other people having sucsess in anything but he screws up everything..
I called MW and asked him about the artical he wrote..He said he knew Frisco didnt quit and said he said those things to get back at TG and me because we told how he makes his dogfood...This was about the rumor that he pisses in the mixer he makes his food in..I lived down the street and saw exactly how he made his food like not putting the cover on,and finding mice and mice shit,and bats in the barn..But i never saw him piss in it.. He begged me since I was godfather to his child that if i told the truth about him I would be hurting his family..I like his wife and family alot as they are good people but he's pulled so much shit for so long that he deserves whatever happens to him..MW will steal,cheat,and lie to screw anyone and will do it to those that love him like a brother..Luike the time he called N of Utah Cole Knls and said that my wife was very sick and he needed to borrow the $1000 to pay me back the money he owed me..But MW like always took the money from this trusting lady and never paid her back and never gave any to me..Thats MW for ya..Using lies and pitty to steal from people who trust him..Today he has German sheperds..He was a loser at gamedogs even with all the breaks that he got,and when the GS people find out how he makes his food and keeps his dogs they'll learn about him..Watch how over time he blows it like he did with the gamedogs..I swear everything Ive said is true and tghere is alot more about MW than that...
Vinnie R.

[ROCK-MACHINE]

There you have it, even more reasons to do your own research if you've decided to feed one of these dogs and like I stated previously all that matter's in the end is what you chose to believe.

[EWO]

Good read.

I think the timing of the article makes it relevant at the time, but today, not so much.

It is a good read. It seems like I read it many years ago and I was way in before it started coming back.

Every great stud dog was a pound pushing killer, and a rank ass cur too, it pretty much depends on who is doing the talking.

Granted Frisco put a lot more dogs out there than most, maybe even some of his were not his, but there is no doubting he put a ton of winners out there and a ton of dogs that made winners themselves. At the same time he put out a lot of curs and curs that were bred to recoup money spent and they made even more curs. Then there were a lot of Frisco shit that was peddled off the TG name.

Maybe the disconnect is the sheer number of dogs created.

EWO

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Here's a heavily bred Frisco dog that I gladly would have fed :

Gr Ch Dynamite (7XW)
https://i.imgur.com/JbZqqGT.jpg