serious inbreeding question

[sinister]

i have a serious question about inbreeding, which is at what point do you give it up? i understand being dedicated but if it's not working at what point do throw your hands up and bring in new blood? let's be realistic you can't keep doing it forever.

[Officially Retired]

i have a serious question about inbreeding, which is at what point do you give it up?

That all depends on the quality of dogs you're working with ... your understanding of what's behind them ... and the depth of your belief in them.




i understand being dedicated but if it's not working at what point do throw your hands up and bring in new blood?

Why isn't it working?

Is it because of the lack of quality originally in the blood, the lack of prepotency in the individuals you've selected, what?

If you make the statement "it's not working" ... then the nugget you have to dig out is WHY is it not working?

I am not being mean, but the missing qualities might not be in the dogs but in your selection of which dogs to use. On the other hand, if the blood really isn't any good then there is no reason to fool with it at all. IMO, if the blood cannot stand on its own merit then what do you need it for?

However, you must also understand that World Class ability can skip a generation or two ... as long as the dogs are at least game and competitive, you still have something good. Just re-shuffle the deck and you can get badass winners again. Case in point, look at the pedigree of Gr Ch Junior 6xW (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=155600). His parents were mediocre, game dogs. His grandparents were all losers ... but behind that there are more 6x & 7x winners ;)

Point being that these 6-7x winners sired and whelped a bunch of losers. These losers were interbred some more to get some fairly-decent dogs, and then these were interbred again to get Junior ... who was a 6xW. Breeding success is about ebbs and flows, and you can't realistically expect to get Grand Champions in every litter. Your dogs will revert back to average ... but if you stick with it, and re-shuffle the deck correctly, you can get exceptional dogs again.




let's be realistic you can't keep doing it forever.

I am being realistic, and yes you can do it forever ... IF you're dedicated enough, IF you have truly good stock to begin with, and IF you manage your genetic pools correctly. Another case in point: Northern Express' Ch Red Bull (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=210878). This dog's mama (Perfect) was a bum. Her daddy Phoenix was a bum. Yet the dog Red Bull (and every dog in his litter) were B+ to A caliber dogs. How did this happen?

Well, I produced Red Bull by breeding an excellent, highly-inbred dog to a bum, highly-inbred bitch. If you click on the pedigree and study it as you read ... to the story of the bum mama started when I bred Poncho to his sister Missy in 1997 and got Phoenix, a game bum. Meanwhile, in 1999 I bred Poncho to his daughter Screamer (a flawless, topshelf bitch) and got Jezebel, an ace. Well, I bred Phoenix to Jezebel in 2001 and I got 2 real good males (Stone Cold and Zephyr) and the cold idiot-bitch Perfect. That's the bottomside of Ch Red Bull.

To make the topside of Ch Red Bull, back in 1994 Mr. Nice Guy bred Poncho's excellent sister Ruby to Ch Commanche and got Ch Tank 4xW, Roy Jones Jr. (an excellent dog), and Rocio ROM. The breeder then bred his pick, Roy Jones, back to his mama Ruby to get my inbred Tuffy bitch, who was rough as hell but short-winded. Meanwhile, as previously-stated, the inbred ace Jezebel (above) had an average, but exceptionally-longwinded brother named Duke Nukem (Poncho/Screamer), who I bred to Tuffy to get another flawless specimen named U-Nhan-Rha, who was a VERY solid, capable animal.

Well, when I bred the flawless U-Nhan-Rha to Perfect, even though Perfect was herself a bum, she was rugged and durable, and her mama was an ace and was Duke Nukem's sister, so I was doubling-up on Duke Nukem and Jezebel ... and the result was an all-excellent, match-quality litter, and one of the tightest breedings I ever made in my life, actually using a bum as the mama.

Yet Red Bull and his littermates were all badass dogs ... off of nothing but a continuous string of brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son, cousin-cousin inbreedings!

So, if you really believe in your stuff, and if you understand the "ebbs and flows" of ability ... so long as your stuff remains game ... you can continuously "re-shuffle the deck" with your inbred dogs and get the ability back again ... if you play your cards right ;)

Hope this helps,

Jack

[SHOWBOX]

Great information...!

[sinister]

thanks for the response and i see where your coming from. pmd you some peds and would appreciate your opinion.

[Officially Retired]

Great information...!

Thank you, glad you enjoyed the read.




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thanks for the response and i see where your coming from. pmd you some peds and would appreciate your opinion.

Thank you for the pedigrees, and I am glad you can see where I am coming from (on a certain level) ... however for you to completely understand where I am coming from, at some point you've got to realize that "I" cannot give you insight on dogs you personally have, if I do not personally know these dogs myself. Ultimately, you need to come to the realization YOU must make those judgment calls as YOU are the one seeing these dogs and evaluating their abilities :idea:

Unbelievably, I have actually gotten PMs from a couple mad people here who have accused me of "not helping them" with their pedigree questions. The reason for this is these people expect me to magically "know" how their dogs are as individuals (based on paperwork) and thus how they are going to produce. The reality is, I simply can't give people direction on how to breed dogs whose strengths/weaknesses are unknown to me. Honestly, how can I possibly tell you "which way to go" in a breeding choice involving animals I've never seen before? I realize that it is "en vogue" to make predictions off of paperwork alone, but the reality is it is impossible to do.

Now then, if you show me a pedigree of animals that I personally am highly-familiar with, or that involve such dogs such as Little Tater/Speedy, Ch Tonka, Bolio, etc. (dogs whom I may not have seen myself, but about whom I have gathered tons of historical feedback from knowledgeable dogmen who have seen them, so that I can have an idea of their qualities), then I can provide some key insight. Yet even in knowing how Bolio was as a dog, or Little Tater, this limited knowledge still doesn't make me magically "know" how every son or daughter of theirs turned out. Nor can I possibly know how the offspring of their offspring turned out ... unless I actually spoke to their owners and got legit feedback. I hope that this underscores the point that truly understanding a pedigree takes a lot of time, work, and research. It is not just about "names on a piece of paper," it is also about how the dogs are themselves!

To show you what I mean, a friend of mine (TFX of this forum) just sent me some puppy pics linebred on his old foundation dog Ch Costello. These dogs were only 5/16ths (31.35%) Ch Costello ... and yet to TFX's lifetime of judgment regarding their traits, these pups were 100% Costello. Someone just reading the paperwork might say, "There's not much Costello in those pups," while the man who actually runs the line himself is thinking "these dogs are it!"

To further show how to read a pedigree based on FOLLOWING TRAITS, rather than looking at "names on a piece of paper," it might be valuable for you to really read the thread on Avila's Ouch! (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?145). Another way I can illustrate my point is by using two of my own dogs, Beowulf and Silver Phoenix, both sons of Silverback:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/postphotos/10.jpg
Two Sons of Silverback at play

Here are their pedigrees:



...................................... ...... Avila's Ouch!
......................... Vise-Grip's Silverback
............................................. Vise-Grip's Missy
...... Vise-Grip's Silver Phoenix
...................................... ...... Avila's Ouch!
......................... Vise-Grip's Tinker Belle
............................................. Vise-Grip's Ms. Bobbi




...................................... ...... Avila's Ouch!
......................... Vise-Grip's Silverback
............................................. Vise-Grip's Missy
...... Vise-Grip's Beowulf
...................................... ...... Vise-Grip's Silverback
......................... Vise-Grip's Coca-Rilla
............................................. Vise-Grip's Cherry Cola


Now then, these two dogs are both inbred and they are both right off of Silverback ... yet they are completely different in their TRAITS :idea:

The first dog is inbred Ouch, with 1/4 Coca Cola blood, while the second dog is inbred Silverback with 1/4 Coca Cola blood, so "on paper" they are fairly similar. Yet they are absolutely different in their personalities and in their traits! Silver Phoenix is an exceptionally well-built dog, and is very athletic, yet personality-wise his is a mellow dog who quite possibly is cold. (I haven't done anything with him, so I don't know this, but I believe it may prove to be so.) Beowulf, on the other hand, is absolutely as intense as he can be ... and it will only be a matter of time before his puppy ass will be unable to "play" with another dog. There is nothing "mellow" about him, and his speed, reflexes, and natural desire to finish are unmistakable to me ... even though he is just a pup.

Now, according to my judgement as a breeder, Beowulf may be 75% Silverback and 25% Coca Cola blood "on paper," but (in seeing 20 years' worth of the best Coca Cola dogs that have ever been born) Beowulf is HEAVILY-influenced by this blood ... almost to the point I would say (genetically) he is the reverse of his pedigree, 75% Coca Cola, and 25% Silverback. Beowulf has a longer, snipy muzzle than most Silverback/Hammer dogs tend to have ... and just the way he moves and carries himself is different from my core Poncho/Hammer-type dogs. Now then, ask yourself this: could you tell me any of this, without you personally knowing any of the dogs in these pedigrees, but just by reading a pedigree? I doubt that very much.

The point of all of this rambling (for you and for others) is NOT just to follow "the papers" on your dogs as you breed them ... but instead make sure you're following their traits as well! I simply cannot do this for you, or for anyone else, either. I can only teach you the basic principles of how to read pedigrees, and make you aware of some of the judgment calls you need to make when you breed your dogs, but it is up to you to apply these principles (or not to apply them), in your own unique way, as you see fit. I cannot do this for you.

Hope this makes some kind of sense :D

Jack

[STONEWALL]

I've been breeding the same family of dogs for over 20 years without adding any new blood. Through good selection they are better now than when I started with them.

I was fortunate to have a great foundation bitch. You must have good stock to begin with. You must make good selections based on traits, note names on a sheet of paper.

[sinister]

thanks for the feedback. so your saying average dogs can go back to producing great dogs? i guess only time will tell.

[Officially Retired]

thanks for the feedback. so your saying average dogs can go back to producing great dogs? i guess only time will tell.

You're welcome, but I cannot sit here and say that "every" average dog can go back to producing great dogs. It depends on the dog and it depends on how you breed them.

Ultimately, yes, only time will tell.

Good luck,

Jack

[TFX]

let's be realistic you can't keep doing it forever.

Tell that to my friend who has the closed herd of Hereford cattle that has not had an outcross for 131 years now. Jack is right, you CAN do it forever, IF you know what you are doing. The old Irish lines were so tightly bred that the quality was actually diminished when crossed. Rather than consider the probability of inbreeding like a coefficient, my friend's cattle were tested at a university genetics laboratory and found to be 94% identical genetically, with only 6% variation. Talk about knowing what you are going to get every time! So yeah, it can be done, it has been done for centuries, and is being done now.

[Officially Retired]

Tell that to my friend who has the closed herd of Hereford cattle that has not had an outcross for 131 years now. Jack is right, you CAN do it forever, IF you know what you are doing. The old Irish lines were so tightly bred that the quality was actually diminished when crossed. Rather than consider the probability of inbreeding like a coefficient, my friend's cattle were tested at a university genetics laboratory and found to be 94% identical genetically, with only 6% variation. Talk about knowing what you are going to get every time! So yeah, it can be done, it has been done for centuries, and is being done now.

Wow. I remember you had mentioned this years ago.

What are the traits this man's cattle are best known for and what breeding patterns (if any) has he found to be his favorite or more consistent than the other?

[TFX]

This would require a significant article on it's own to discuss the total deterioration of the nation's scatterbred beef herd! Jim's cattle are best known for moderate frame size, easy fleshing, huge hindquarters, ultra prepotency,and....... most importantly........ the ability to be finished on grass alone. The grain feeding of cattle is another ass backwards philosophy introduced only in the last 50-60 years to compensate for the decline in genetic ability.

The depth of the inbreeding is so intense that for me to throw up a pedigree or two, or discuss how they have evolved as a line is to do a serious injustice to 5 lifetimes worth of work. In short Jim does say in his book "the fundamental cross in a line breeding program is of a half brother to a half sister". In addition to his book, he also does a very random newsletter (every couple of years or so). Several years ago he featured a piece in it about our genetics discussions.

[Officially Retired]

Fair enough & understood. I have people say, "Tell me about your bloodline," in PMs all the time ... which (as you say) could fill a book, which of course they expect me to provide in a mere PM :lol:

And I have only been doing this 1/5th-1/6th as long as Jim's family :shocked:

Interesting though about 1/2-bro/sister breedings. I know a lot of people who swear by that (Bobby Holland is one of them) ... and the winningest bitch in history Gr Ch Tornado 10xW (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=122) came from a half-brother/sister breeding :idea:

Thanks for responding,

Jack

PS: What is the title of Jim's book BTW?

[AmberLamps]

Fair enough & understood. I have people say, "Tell me about your bloodline," in PMs all the time ... which (as you say) could fill a book, which of course they expect me to provide in a mere PM :lol:

And I have only been doing this 1/5th-1/6th as long as Jim's family :shocked:

Interesting though about 1/2-bro/sister breedings. I know a lot of people who swear by that (Bobby Holland is one of them) ... and the winningest bitch in history Gr Ch Tornado 10xW (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=122) came from a half-brother/sister breeding :idea:

Thanks for responding,

Jack

PS: What is the title of Jim's book BTW?

Glad you asked that Jack, it sounds absolutely fascinating.

[TFX]

The Basis of Linebreeding, by Jim Lents. I had a copy and sold it for twice as much as I paid. They are usually only available through Jim, as they are privately published.

[Abe]

Dam anyone know how to get in touch with Jim Lents to order it from him then. I found one copy $250

[redmistkennel]

Found this on amazon This book, "The Basis for Linebreeding," is considered a reference work in livestock circles. I thought this book was rare and difficult to acquire, until I learned one can acquire this book directly from the author for $35 domestic, $45 international. His address is Jim Lents, 25398 SW Coombs Road, Indiahoma, OK 73552.

[Officially Retired]

Good research!

[Abe]

Isn't that info dated 06? Guess its worth the risk

[redmistkennel]

I believe it was october 2011

[Abe]

Sweet thanks check is in the mail

[TFX]

Jim is still at the ranch, the address is still good. He got in a pretty bad car accident a few years back, and that has slowed things down a bit. I am looking forward to his "coming soon" website, that has been up for a couple of years now. I was set to go buy some of Jim's cattle in 2005, but my daughter spent 5 days in the hospital after a trip overseas, and there went my money for a 3 in 1. Someday!

[bad dog]

Well, when I bred the flawless U-Nhan-Rha to Perfect, even though Perfect was herself a bum, she was rugged and durable, and her mama was an ace and was Duke Nukem's sister, so I was doubling-up on Duke Nukem and Jezebel ... and the result was an all-excellent, match-quality litter, and one of the tightest breedings I ever made in my life, actually using a bum as the mama.


just curious, why not just breed him to the ace instead of the bum?

[Officially Retired]

Well, I agree that breeding "best to best" within a family is (by definition) "Best Practice."

However, if you followed what I was saying, the point being made was that, even when you do breed "best to best," you can still come out with bums. When I bred Poncho and Missy together, I was breeding best-to-best, but yet I got the bum Phoenix. When I bred Poncho to Screamer, I again was breeding Best-to-Best, and I that time I did get an ace in Jezebel. However, most of the dogs in her litter were just extremely game, average dogs.

When I bred the ace Jezebel to the bum Phoenix, 2 out of 3 dogs produced were A-level dogs, with one bum in Perfect. And even though Perfect was far from 'perfect,' she still had a bunch of super dogs in her immediate ancestry, and so it was my job to "re-shuffle the deck" in such a way as to get all the good stuff back out of her ... and by breeding Perfect to U-Nhan-Rha, I was able to do that: and I got across-the-board excellence in that litter.

The point is, when you inbreed with bums, if there is enough really good genes "right there," just below the surface, with the correct INbreeding selection you can sometimes bring it all right back out again :D So too was the story of the Gr Ch Junior dog a few pages back. 6x and 7x winners were bred together (best-to-best), but all these breedings did was produce a bunch of losers. Those losers were interbred to produce some decent, but not spectacular, dogs ... but when Jackson re-shuffled his own deck a third time he got a brand new 6xW out of the mix.

Therefore, the lesson to be learned here is breeding "Best to Best" doesn't necessarily do anything for you ... because it is a breeding fact that excellence tends to revert back to average :idea:

Therefore, at the end of the day, it is the ability to re-shuffle the deck and bring back the excellence out of that "genetic deck" that means everything to the saying "Keeping The Blood Alive" ...

Jack

[Abe]

I keep running thru my head when u say re shuffle the deck and am trying to find the breeding patterns used to reshuffle dam it's enough to make a mans head spin but I'll figure it out in time. Great thread thx to the old timers willing to share !!!

[Officially Retired]

I keep running thru my head when u say re shuffle the deck and am trying to find the breeding patterns used to reshuffle dam it's enough to make a mans head spin but I'll figure it out in time. Great thread thx to the old timers willing to share !!!

Really study Junior's pedigree (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=155600) ... there is a TON of half-brother/half-sister breedings in there.

If you study Red Bull's pedigree (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=210878), there is a mix of brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son, and cousin/cousin breedings.

Jack

[Abe]

I can follow juniors red bull is goin to take studying Slow scholar but steady wins the race.

[Officially Retired]

I can follow juniors red bull is goin to take studying Slow scholar but steady wins the race.


The pedigree seems complicated, I guess, if you've just laid eyes on it; however it is easy as pie to follow:


............................................. Vise-Grip's Poncho
......................... Vise-Grip's Duke Nukem ¾ Poncho
............................................. Vise-Grip's Screamer (Poncho's daughter)
...... Vise-Grip's U-Nhan-Rha
............................................. DeMarco's Roy Jones Jr. (Ch Comanche x Ruby)
......................... Vise-Grip's Tuffy ¾ Ruby, Poncho's sister
............................................. Vise-Grip's Ruby (Poncho's sister)

Northern Express' Ch Red Bull (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=210878)

............................................. Vise-Grip's Poncho
......................... Vise-Grip's Phoenix 100% Poncho/Missy
............................................. Vise-Grip's Missy (Poncho's sister)
...... Vise-Grip's Perfect
............................................. Vise-Grip's Poncho
......................... Vise-Grip's Jezebel ¾ Poncho
............................................. Vise-Grip's Screamer (Poncho's daughter)


Like I said, it was one of the tightest breedings I have ever done ... and every dog in the litter was/is match quality. Yet Perfect and her sire Phoenix were bums (but they were incredibly durable, with big bones and thick hides). Jezebel was an ace and her mama Screamer was an excellent animal. Poncho and her two sisters were all excellent animals, but Missy had a devastating mouth as did her sister Ruby. U-Nhan-Rha was an excellent, well-rounded animal. Duke Nukem is Jezebel's sister and was longwinded, but no mouth.

Jack

[apeman]

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