Strange thing happened

[STORMY]

all,

i believe my hound stop in a strange way

he would never mouth anything until late into the hunt ???

then it seemed as if he just said F--- it i'm done ....

NEVER has he done this not only that he chewed the whole side of the crate prior to the hunt.....
just airing my thoughts..

[Officially Retired]

all,
i believe my hound stop in a strange way
he would never mouth anything until late into the hunt ???
NEVER has he done this not only that he chewed the whole side of the crate prior to the hunt.....
just airing my thoughts to you..


Two questions:


1) Could these people have been disreputable and used a rub?
2) Was there a bitch in heat anywhere around (or bitches done before your deal)?


Those are the first two thoughts that pop into my mind.

Jack

[STORMY]

no#1 sticks more in my mind then ANYTHING
the same mess happened with the other two guys that night just bull crap....

somewhere we dropped the ball.

[Officially Retired]

no#1 sticks more in my mind then ANYTHING
the same mess happened with the other two guys that night just bull crap....
somewhere we dropped the ball.

Well, I know a guy who lost with a son of Icon like that. The Icon dog was mopping the floor with the other man's dog for an hour, and had plenty of gas left, but then after "sponges" were given to both sides, when the other dog turned mid-fight, the Icon dog never mouthed the other dog again. He went after him hard after the scratch ... but then spit out his hold and never took hold again, and ultimately just stood the line at 1:20. Dude thought something was fishy and didn't put the dog down ... but his dog did lose and did quit in the same way: refused to mouth the dog ... but yet was after his ass and not fighting defensively.

Anyway, the guy matched the Icon dog twice more after that and he whipped both dogs and never made a bad move.

If you believe in your dog, give him another chance and let him prove to you what's what. If he's just a cur he'll quit again ... but if he was rubbed, he should do well for you in clean conditions.

Jack

[scary]

Ill say it once and ill say it again the game is dirty dirty. Did you not wash the other dog?

[STORMY]

yes we washed.

my buddys were busy with hound politics so loong story short the B.S took place i believe....

[STORMY]

it just leaves that thought he pulled up.....

[Officially Retired]

Well, like I said, don't mind-f*** yourself. You either believe in your dog or you don't.

If you believe in him, give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does the next time. You don't have to roll him to death, just let him heal from this, and see a good reasonable roll out of him. If he measures up to your beliefs ... then get him in shape and do him again ... with a better crowd this time :D

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

not only that he chewed the whole side of the crate prior to the hunt.....
just airing my thoughts..

he also could have really fucked up his gums chewing the crate.

[STORMY]

EVO thanks,
i took this and the fact that we as a team just wasn't on our square that day.
it takes more than just a bulldog to be succesful...

[TFX]

In addition to the bitch scent; whether in the general area or used as a rub, one more thing comes to mind. In the late 1980's a well known dogman said to me "only a game dog can take a keep". To be honest, it sounded like BS to me at the time. Within a couple of years though, I had my first one quit in a show. This dog was an absolute monster who pulled plugs the size of half dollars out of everything he was rolled with for 15-20 minutes. We were debating on whether to game test him further, or just show him. I had a well known experienced dogman see him and say "if you aren't going to show him I sure as hell will." So we hooked him, M37 into an oldtimer with one of his homebreds down from one of his ROM sires, and the show was set to happen in our own barn.

The keep went great, although this dog could only take a small portion of the workload of a half brother of his that I had some previous success with. The way we worked this dog was that The Pope would drive his old Ranchero 500 through the soft sand of grape vineyards that my family once owned, with me strapped down to the hood for safety. In this manner, the dog was worked through various paces of roadwork. I already had one go 2:40 with this same kind of work, so I knew he would be strong and have really good air. When we wanted to hit the sprint pace about 25mph, I would flash a big, stupid looking, life sized stuffed dog out in front of him. The dog would almost explode out of his harness, and we'd get him to a full blast run for a spell, and then back him down. Now that my partner has passed away, these cool winter nights were times to never be forgotten, time spent working a bulldog with my friend that I will forever cherish. At the end of the night, the reward for this dog was to let him maul the big, goofy, stuffed animal. It seemed that he grew to hate that damned thing more and more each week as the keep progressed!

As we were winding down the work dramatically the week of the show, a strange thing happened. At the end of the night when we tossed him the stuffed animal he humped it, whereas previously he would have to be broken off it with a parting stick trying to maul this big toy. We didn't think much of it at the time, and the work decreased over the next few nights to the point that he wasn't running sprints and working with this stuffed dog any longer. The night of the show arrived, and all seemed well until the release. He just went over and barely mouthed the dog, and immediately went to trying to screw the other dogs face, or any other area of his body he could. It looked like a bad episode of canine homo porn! This was his singular focus for the next 1:14 minutes until he finally refused to scratch. Now, one could argue we were bitch rubbed, and I still think we could have been. However, in my mind the words of the old dogman began to echo over and over "only a game dog can take a keep". We decided to take the dog home and try him another day. This dog was hand raised by me from weaning when I had a yard of dogs numbering less than 10. He had always been a gentle dog. He didn't take a lot of punishment from the other dog, but when we laid him out and tried to assess what was wrong with him, he went psycho man-aggressive on us. My partner said to me "I'm shooting my half of him", and within about 9 more breaths of life, thus ended a nightmare of an evening.

It is my opnion that the 8 week keep broke this dog on the last week, as evidenced when he tried to hump the stuffed animal early in the week, and most certainly when he went aggressive on us. The dog was only putting in about 8 miles of roadwork per night at peak, and his half brother was putting in over 16 miles, so it wasn't like he was over worked. He was just overworked for his less-than-game self. Since that time, I have seen this scenario play out again over and over, and so have most of you if you think about it. How many of you have heard a guy say after a quit "he showed far gamer than this before" or "he sure showed a lot more ability in his rolls"? The keep will break many dogs friends.

The early experience with this "canine porn star turned attempted murderer" led to the very exacting testing standards that we began to use before taking one out to show. As I chronicled on this site in an earlier post, I think heavy testing is a two edged sword. It causes you to take out fewer dogs because you find out the truth about some of them at home before they ever make the show. Some of those pit game ones could have eked out a win or two perhaps. The good side is, the competition has to take you into very deep water to defeat you IF they can, AND......... the dog who has already shown very game for you does not break down mentally in a keep. This mindset is also what has caused me as a breeder to use; as much as possible, my show stock for my brood stock. Not only have they won or lost and then showed the durability to survive, they also took a keep without mentally caving in too, which I believe runs parallel to the complex trait that we call gameness. "Only a game dog can take a keep." It sure makes more sense than it did 23 years ago when I first heard it.

[STORMY]

TFX THANKS,
man thanks for the wealth of knowledge this is the type of knowledge that should be put out here you got me thinking about this:appl:

[turkd3000]

makes a lot of sense.great read

[Officially Retired]

That was a great post and informative read, the point of which I agree with in general. However, I am going to disagree with some particular conclusions drawn, and yet ultimately come back and agree again. Here goes:


I absolutely agree that many dogs will quit in keep. I also absolutely agree that the willingness to work ... and work ... and work ... all the while still wanting to do more work ... is one of the key ingredients to a great all-around dog;


That said, I disagree that any dog who refuses to do a full keep is necessarily a cur. While it may be true that some dogs get "mentally broken" by a keep, it is every bit as true that some extremely game dogs are merely lazy and don't want to do the work. In other words, just because a dog refuses to work doesn't mean he'll quit to another dog. My Truman dog, for example, was like this: he didn't like working much, and by mid-keep he just flat-out laid down in the street and refused. I remember telling my old mentor (Lineman) about it, and he said much the same thing as TFX's mentor: "Uh that's a bad sign, man. What do you think he's going to do in the pit?". Well, I did wind up losing that show, but Truman sure as hell never quit. He was absolutely exhausted in there ... he was totally dominated, could hardly stand anymore ... but yet he screamed with rage on his last scratch. So, while in TFX's case, I do agree that his dog "broke" under the stress of the keep, I wanted to point out that not every dog who refuses to work is a cur. I think some dogs can hate other dogs, and prove dead game if they're in a fight, but they might not have the same drive toward walking/running/etc. They're two different items of focus;


That said, I still agree that some dogs are broken by a keep, and (whether a dog breaks to a keep, or is just too lazy to run one) I think it is always a bad trait in a dog "not" to be a 100% willing worker. From a selection standpoint, I absolutely agree that selecting an animal who is a proven workaholic, who never gets broken (or bored) by the keep, is far preferable to selecting a dog who only brawls, but who is unwilling to work.



So, again, very interesting tale ... and though I digressed a bit on a minor point ... I think the overall point excellent and well taken indeed. In hindsight, with the benefit of over 20 years' experience, my Truman dog was simply not a good candidate for a match dog, either in his ability or in his enthusiasm to work hard. If I were a competitor in this day and age, and if I still had Truman, I wouldn't even think of matching the dog. Although he was game, he simply lacked the ability to fight on a world class level and, to make things worse, he also totally lacked the necessary work ethic to enable his extreme gameness to carry him over the long haul.

Jack

[STORMY]

CA JACK
that was a great post i'm sure others will chime in and add experiences they know of that will help other dogman & dogwoman to succeed and somehow get this passion we love on right track.

[scary]

I have noticed that alot of members did not subscribe and that's ok. But i feel this knowledge and personal stories you cannot put a price on jmo. So thanks jack and thanks tfx things like this really make this board enjoyable.

P.S no ass kissing intended :)

[Abe]

I can't speak for the flocks but I for sure didn't miss a drop of this great info being shared. I've always said to learn you gotta shut your mouth and listen. So quite I am :-) but not missing any free nugget of knowledge !!!!!!!

[evolutionkennels]

EVO thanks,
i took this and the fact that we as a team just wasn't on our square that day.
it takes more than just a bulldog to be succesful...

Well, sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. I think back on how stupid we were with Machobuck. Hell, he traveled 24 hours, won in 28 min, 8 weeke later traveled another 24 and won in 31, then 6 weeks later in 1:27. If Machobuck would have packed it in, it would have been our fault for stretching him so thin. As it was..he was just a bad enough son of a bitch that he beat both the dogs and our stupidity. But everything else being equal.. Yeah, you gotta give your animal the best possible shot, and letting him chew out of a crate wasn't good. You always have to leave someone monitoring the crate!

[Officially Retired]

CA JACK
that was a great post i'm sure others will chime in and add experiences they know of that will help other dogman & dogwoman to succed and somehow get this passion we love on right track.

Well, we're each just offering different experiences, from different angles as dogmen, in the hopes that you will analyze your own dog's performance with some added perspective. Being able to see things from all sides takes time and experience, but no matter how much time and experience you put in life will still throw you curve balls on occasion :lol:



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I have noticed that alot of members did not subscribe and that's ok.


Honestly, based on the emails I get, I think a lot of them have had trouble re-registering :lol:

But sure, the majority of people have not yet taken the plunge and subscribed, and that's cool, because they will eventually 8)

Rome wasn't built in a day, and remember this site hasn't even bloomed yet; it is still a fledgling site. Be assured, I am in this for the long haul amigo. To gain a little perspective here, keep in mind that sites like PedsOnline have a 12-year head-start on me. Sure, they have over 17,400 members (which is a lot!), but when you really analyze that number ... and factor that over the 12 years they've been online ... that means they get about 1,450 subscriptions/year ... which breaks down to an average of only 120 new people/month.

Well, hell, this site is doing a whole lot better than that! (And I haven't even got the pedigree database up yet, nor 1/100th of all the material that I have to offer) ;)

So hang in there you will see (and be a part of) the emergence of a truly great site and unmatched resource when it's in full bloom. With the quality of content that everybody is contributing in these posts, combined with the calm and reasonable atmosphere, this place will slowly but surely add-up over time ... and within a year or two there will simply be no comparison. Remember, you can't judge a puppy when it's just barely been born and is still growing ... you gotta wait and let it get full-grown to see what it can do first :pirate:




But i feel this knowledge and personal stories you cannot put a price on jmo. So thanks jack and thanks tfx things like this really make this board enjoyable.


Well, thanks for participating.

While this site isn't wild with chaos everywhere like some sites, it is the best place to get good solid information from seasoned capable dogmen. Just make sure you keep posting your questions and observations here, and with the depth and scope of the experienced input that is being given, you can be sure this is where you will get your best and most well-thought-out answers.



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I can't speak for the flocks but I for sure didn't miss a drop of this great info being shared. I've always said to learn you gotta shut your mouth and listen. So quite I am :-) but not missing any free nugget of knowledge !!!!!!!

Don't forget though --- you have to open your mouth to ask questions :mrgreen:

You seem to be the type to read, and get up and go after information, so I am sure you will really find a lot of great material to enjoy.

So thanks for your input,

Jack

[Dogman]

Thanks for this site jack and this site is well worth the thirty dollar with all this valuable info that jack and others are sharing I agree that jack is a very very knowledgeable dogman thanks once again

[TFX]

I probably should have included a disclaimer in my initial post on this subject. That would have been right in line with what Jack stated, which is basically that there no absolutes in this business. Some game dogs are lazy, and plenty of curs are working fools. Plenty of less than game dogs that looked really good at home were ruined by a keep though, and that is what I was offering as a possibility to the original post. Now, that could lead us down a new path of how the work is applied. Plenty of great dogs were ruined by a lousy keep too. The difficulty of putting all of the variables together correctly presents such a challenge, that when success is achieved it is deeply satisfying. And that my friends, is how the bulldog addiction works!

[Nash]

I had the question before but never found a satisfying answer ( or didn't dig deep enough ) to what are the things used to rub a dog with ? ( except for the already mentioned bitch in heat )

Great thread as always, and thnx for sharing the story TFX.

[Officially Retired]

Well, sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. I think back on how stupid we were with Machobuck. Hell, he traveled 24 hours, won in 28 min, 8 weeke later traveled another 24 and won in 31, then 6 weeks later in 1:27. If Machobuck would have packed it in, it would have been our fault for stretching him so thin. As it was..he was just a bad enough son of a bitch that he beat both the dogs and our stupidity. But everything else being equal.. Yeah, you gotta give your animal the best possible shot, and letting him chew out of a crate wasn't good. You always have to leave someone monitoring the crate!

It is amazing to look back at some of the things we did in the past, the stupidity of which is clear as day to us now, and yet was utterly invisible to our eyes back then.

And, wow, 24 hours is a long, LONG time for a dog to travel, and yet still win in short order. Makes you wonder how quick it would have been if he would have been done in his own backyard :shocked:



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Thanks for this site jack and this site is well worth the thirty dollar with all this valuable info that jack and others are sharing I agree that jack is a very very knowledgeable dogman thanks once again

You're welcome and thank you very much for joining. There are a lot of knowledgeable dogmen here, all of whom have unique perspectives and tons of great information to share. Even us old-timers can still learn from each other, and for the folks still learning, hearing several different valid perspectives can only mean seeing questionable situations from all possible angles.



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I probably should have included a disclaimer in my initial post on this subject. That would have been right in line with what Jack stated, which is basically that there no absolutes in this business. Some game dogs are lazy, and plenty of curs are working fools. Plenty of less than game dogs that looked really good at home were ruined by a keep though, and that is what I was offering as a possibility to the original post. Now, that could lead us down a new path of how the work is applied. Plenty of great dogs were ruined by a lousy keep too. The difficulty of putting all of the variables together correctly presents such a challenge, that when success is achieved it is deeply satisfying. And that my friends, is how the bulldog addiction works!

Another great post.

People expect the one-liner answer for "all possible situations," and there just is no such thing. Part of the "badge of honor" that comes with experience and success is emerging from the trial-and-error phase of being a dogman as someone who can successfully-navigate through all of the possible options and come out of it having made the right selections ... whereas the beginner/inexperienced dogman will zig when he should have zagged, and will wind up making a mistake. And, you're right again, it is the very process of learning to successfully-navigate through these challenges that creates the self-reward that these dogs can bring us ... while the deluge of challenges we forever face brings us more opportunities to troubleshoot through.

PS: The statement, "There are no absolutes" always makes me chuckle, because it is itself an absolute statement :D My brother and I used to use this statement on each other all the time, when either of us made an "absolute" statement to the other. For example, if I ever said, "X will never happen," he would say back to me, "There are no absolutes." The irony is just too funny, for it is true there are no absolutes, and yet the statement itself is an absolute statement--and is true! Thus is the paradox of truth :idea:



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I had the question before but never found a satisfying answer ( or didn't dig deep enough ) to what are the things used to rub a dog with ? ( except for the already mentioned bitch in heat )
Great thread as always, and thnx for sharing the story TFX.

As for me, I honestly don't know. I have heard around the grapevine that there is "some" kind of rub out there that will make a dog look like shit and not mouth another dog, but as for what it is (or what is the antidote for it), I haven't a clue.

Jack

[Nash]

Thnx Jack.

I understand that it is not something that's easily discussed, or tought it wasn't while reading and not coming across it. Can see talking about it, putting some more scum into using it.

[STORMY]

nash,
that's a touchy one......

[R2L]

if they want to cheat they're going to do it anyway

Rule 5: If requested to do so the referee shall search the person named to wash the dogs and then have him bare his arm to the elbow and wash both dogs in the same warm water and rinse them each in his half of the warm clean water provided for that purpose.

[Nash]

First I was like what ? Than I lol'ed.

[scary]

Idk but i had heard threw a friend of a friend that milk was better to use because it doesn't bead like water does.

[Officially Retired]

I would think most rubs happen after the wash ... and many that I have heard about involve the sponges.

[TFX]

I would think most rubs happen after the wash ... and many that I have heard about involve the sponges.
Another good reason to use rules the way we use them in the west, none of that sponge and bucket business.

[R2L]

Another good reason to use rules the way we use them in the west, none of that sponge and bucket business.

what are those rules, would like to hear.

[R2L]

I would think most rubs happen after the wash ... and many that I have heard about involve the sponges.

how about rolling a dice to decide who gets which towel/sponge, haha.

[Officially Retired]

what are those rules, would like to hear.

Basically, they just omit the use of sponges.

However, I have also heard of people rubbing the back of their own lower pants legs before the contest, so that during the contest (when they have their own dog in the corner) they rub their hands on the back of their pants to get the rub on their hands, and then rub their dog in the spots that he's getting bit. Looks like they're just "massaging" the their dog in the corner, but they're really applying the rub at that point.

Jack

[turkd3000]

it's crazy what some people will do for money.

[Officially Retired]

It's pitiful I agree.

No sense of honor or even basic sportsmanship.

[Nash]

It could be put in, the sox, the hair, ear, etc. If it ain't something humans don't get burned or something by. Messed up shit and scums they are, but I believe there's so many tricks to use to a dogs advantage. Things like that realy take away from the game and the dogs.

[R2L]

more money more problems? ; )

a win should be "priceless" but for some its just price

jack, thanks. in other words if people want to cheat they will do it anyway. but i think its good to rule out as much as possible.

[STORMY]

more money more problems? ; )

a win should be "priceless" but for some its just price

jack, thanks. in other words if people want to cheat they will do it anyway. but i think its good to rule out as much as possible.



RSL
it priceless to us and to others it's about the $$$ and ego's...i always knew of this type of thing happening i felt in some ways it could've happened......


to me

[Officially Retired]

jack, thanks. in other words if people want to cheat they will do it anyway. but i think its good to rule out as much as possible.

You're welcome.

Another thing to watch out for is when someone at the show says, "Go walk your dog out over there," when you get your dog to the show site. Disreputable types have been known to plant little pieces of meat in that area "over there," and have purposely laced these little pieces of meat with barbiturates, acepromazine, or worse to affect your dog's performance.

In other words, make sure you don't let your dog "sniff around" too much while you're walking him out either ...

Jack

[Abe]

I'm far from blind but had no clue dirt bags would go that far ! When I was young coming up in a pretty rough part of Cali we had pride in who and what we did. Hell some of my closet friends where made after a hell of a good fight we had mutual respect and pride in the fact we knew we could stand the line if needed and could trust each other. Where did that thinking go ? Fucking rubs really !!!!!!

[Officially Retired]

I'm far from blind but had no clue dirt bags would go that far ! When I was young coming up in a pretty rough part of Cali we had pride in who and what we did. Hell some of my closet friends where made after a hell of a good fight we had mutual respect and pride in the fact we knew we could stand the line if needed and could trust each other. Where did that thinking go ? Fucking rubs really !!!!!!

I agree with you Abe.

There are some people who have a sense of pride and honor to them, and who can actually appreciate another man bringing a fine animal ... but, unfortunately, there are also those who have no honor and who will "do anything to win" ... "at all costs" ... including to their own dignity.

As with these dogs, there is bad breeding and bad upbringing in people too ... that is just a fact.

Jack

[lilpitgirl]

yes we had a dog that was totally dismattaling the other dog we barely got touched then all of a sudden at the 30 min the dog blows and can not recover!
partners know something is not right and pick up dog dog wont eat next day take to vet and dog is going down hill cant be saved vet said was clueless to what had transpired dog
dies next day with barely a mark on him the other dog makes ch and some people who were into the same person had the same experiance