looking for some working andy capp

[BREAK'EM KENNELS]

any breedind being done or any pup for sale or trade :P nice forum

[YigYang]

there is some working andy capp blood still around.
I hate commenting without anyhelp.
here is a good andy cap male that is not open to public yet but (Yes its still around)


http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=344300 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=344300)

[TFX]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=331142)

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)

[Officially Retired]

I am surprised no one has yet commented on this post by TFX.

To me, it distinctly shows the importance of individual selection in perpetuating a bloodline, rather than just following "names on a piece of paper" ...

TFX has a lot of good ideas on these dogs, and has maintained an exceptionally-game strain of dogs for many, many years ... so yall would be well advised to pay attention when he writes about breeding. In fact, I am going to post an article of his on the STICKY thread up top on the Breeding Forum (that he wrote about bloodhounds) that I included in The Pit Bull Bible (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/).

.

[Vdk]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=331142)

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)


Good Read!! I wish I could understand genetics at the level you and other more experienced breeders do. Its all still new to me.

Vdk

[Icedogger]

That was a very good read and sometimes I think we all expect a dog to be game by the ped and that is so far from the truth sometimes we all get blinded by a ped and have visions of glory, I spent many of my earlier years with visions of every dog working out, damn was I naive. I spent more money on being naive and wasted alot of money just because I thought I had the best and would run my mouth without the wisedom to go with it. Years later I learned how to shut up an listen and pay attention. Not only to who was talking but what they were talking about. I do beleive a cur should not be bred no matter how good the ped is. Not saying a cur couldn't produce a good one, the sun shines on every dogs ass once in awhile .I look for traits right away in a pup, but they must mature before I make my final decision on what to do with the dog and I no for a fact not every dog is going to be worthy of breeding. Peds don't make the dog the dog makes the peds, every dog needs to make his or her own. Most people will learn the hard way as I had to and I'm still learning 22 years later after my first APBT. It's all a learning prosses. Best of luck to everybody on there choices. That was a very good post TFX sure made me think of some old days good and bad. Funny how something will bring back memories.

[k-dog]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=331142)

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)
very well put! it dont take a good ped to make a good dog, it take a good dog to make the ped!JMO!

[mistabud]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=331142)

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)

In your experience do you see any color association with the 4 generation skip? In other words, do the dogs that exhibit the same traits 4 generations later generally have similar markings or hair color?

[TFX]

Absolutely! Color and markings are simple ways to identify where certain traits are coming from out of the ancestry. The big challenge is, one has to know all of the individuals in the pedigree to be truly informed about where the genetic influence is coming from. How many people have experience with 4,5, 6+ generations of a line? I can tell you very few do, as most tend to hop bloodlines ever looking and seldom finding that one outrcrossed ace. I fell into that trap in the early years. Fortunately a couple of those crosses worked out really well, and from there we were wise enough to stop making any crosses. Believe it or not, really simple things can tell you a lot too, such as does a dog crap in one spot or all over the chain space or kennel? These are good early indicators to me on what a pup might turn out like because I know the ancestry of my dogs well enough to know where many of the traits are coming from. Jack is correct, selection, selection, selection, that is the key. If I continued breeding some of the popular paperwork that we tried in the early years I could probably sell those mutts for some good money today. Instead, we bred and showed good dogs somewhat discreetly, selling or giving away very few, and never worrying about flavor of the year bloodlines. Consequently, the dogs never have had too much wide appeal, but they are darned sure consistently good.

[relentless]

Very interesting TFX. What line do u run if u don't mine me asking?

[TFX]

My own line from an unbroken chain of breedings going back 21 years. A combination of the old S&W blood with some of Tom Garner's and Ronald Boyles' best blood infused into it strategically. I don't really like your run of the mill Garner dogs, and I have seen terrible percentages out of the Boyles stuff, but the blend on the two families was very high quality and high percentage. It was on this three way blend that we truly dropped anchor about a dozen years ago and have not changed the gene pool whatsoever. They are just family bred on the same bunch of good show dogs and a few honest ones that were held back from showing for various reasons. They are very honest, consistent, and durable dogs, and have won somewhere over 84% of their shows and have shown game in over 90% of their shows. This is a mating I made earlier in the week with my last remaining brood female. I have basically been out of the dogs for 6 years or so, but am committed to keeping the little family going.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)

[Jrbulldogs]

TFK this was a bad dog that we had down here in FL had some of that good Andy Capp blood n him,along with jacks missy,he also produced a Gr Ch and Ch in the same litter
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... g_id=75028 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=75028)

[Officially Retired]

My own line from an unbroken chain of breedings going back 21 years. A combination of the old S&W blood with some of Tom Garner's and Ronald Boyles' best blood infused into it strategically. I don't really like your run of the mill Garner dogs, and I have seen terrible percentages out of the Boyles stuff, but the blend on the two families was very high quality and high percentage. It was on this three way blend that we truly dropped anchor about a dozen years ago and have not changed the gene pool whatsoever. They are just family bred on the same bunch of good show dogs and a few honest ones that were held back from showing for various reasons. They are very honest, consistent, and durable dogs, and have won somewhere over 84% of their shows and have shown game in over 90% of their shows. This is a mating I made earlier in the week with my last remaining brood female. I have basically been out of the dogs for 6 years or so, but am committed to keeping the little family going.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)

Very nice! That is some serious linebreeding on your old Roto bitch! How is the conformation/ability holding up as you progress. Any problems or have you rid yourself of the problems and are getting some really nice uniformity by now?



________________________
________________________




TFK this was a bad dog that we had down here in FL had some of that good Andy Capp blood n him,along with jacks missy,he also produced a Gr Ch and Ch in the same litter
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... g_id=75028 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=75028)

Ah yes, the only Hollingsworth/ViseGrip mix with some RBJ ... with some Capp in there for good measure. Champions (and better!) seem to come, any way you mix them :ugeek:

Jack

.

[TFX]

Conformation is solid rock still, no changes whatsoever the tighter we go due to selectivity. I had 2 priceless inbred dogs from the program stolen by the Paul Rich dirtbag that has burned half of the dogmen in the country by now. He dumped one on the yard of a fancier who didn't know it was stolen. This guy called me and told me he put the inbred dog on a young prospect that was 9-10 lbs heavier, and found that the inbred dog just completely outwrestled and manhandled the heavier dog and was a very impressive animal. Here he is:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=313312 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=313312)

Unfortunately, the gentleman whose yard he was on asked the dog thief to get any stolen dogs off of his yard, and the word on the street is that they had put this dog through so much, and he looked so rough, that they just put him down. What a great reward for being a quality animal in every sense of the word eh? I wish that we could cull the game of all the lowlifes that are a total scourge on the breed and fancy.

[Officially Retired]

Conformation is solid rock still, no changes whatsoever the tighter we go due to selectivity. I had 2 priceless inbred dogs from the program stolen by the Paul Rich dirtbag that has burned half of the dogmen in the country by now. He dumped one on the yard of a fancier who didn't know it was stolen. This guy called me and told me he put the inbred dog on a young prospect that was 9-10 lbs heavier, and found that the inbred dog just completely outwrestled and manhandled the heavier dog and was a very impressive animal. Here he is:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=313312 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=313312)
Unfortunately, the gentleman whose yard he was on asked the dog thief to get any stolen dogs off of his yard, and the word on the street is that they had put this dog through so much, and he looked so rough, that they just put him down. What a great reward for being a quality animal in every sense of the word eh? I wish that we could cull the game of all the lowlifes that are a total scourge on the breed and fancy.

What a beautiful, game dog ... how wonderful that he confirmed your selection standards and breeding principles ... and how awful that he was utterly wasted and not appreciated.

Trust me, friend, I feel your pain :angry:

Jack

.

[YigYang]

TFX you have a very well bred, healthy program.
i iwould say that his program consist of some andy capp/boyles/carver bred dogs with a touch of chinaman back in in gen

[Officially Retired]

TFX you have a very well bred, healthy program.
i iwould say that his program consist of some andy capp/boyles/carver bred dogs with a touch of chinaman back in in gen

It's true that the dogs you mentioned are "in back" of TFX's dogs ... however, genetically, the dog TFX's stock is bred the tightest on is his ROTO bitch (75% top and bottom) ...

Jack


.

[TFX]

The breeding I just made is 11/16ths Roto and 5/16ths CH Costello. And then we get back to the very first post I made on the "traits". While they are tighter bred on Roto than anything else "on paper", many of them are "pure" CH Costello dogs through and through. By continuing to breed the "Cos dogs" to the "Roto dogs", the original cross continues to be refreshed, and they remain as if there were that original hybrid vigor. Literally, the tighter they get, they tend to be getting better with each succeeding generation. Roto and Cos had similar styles and ability, so those traits that we like have become more and more fixed over time. If these dogs lack anything they lack some speed. Sparing infusions of our Homer III blood picked up the speed on average, but some of the raw power and extreme durability of these dogs is lost in doing so. These dogs live a long time too, 15 1/2, 13, 12, years old is very common. The sire of the litter above is coming up on 9 and he looks like he is 4 or 5. While I recognize that there are some really good lines out there, I wouldn't trade these dogs for anything else in the world, especially some flavor of the year so-called "fastlane" stuff. I think when those get by Batters and that JoJo bitch are shown, people will see fastlane. The few camps that have those five dogs have all been in dogs for 20-30 years and have never owned anything quite like them.......... ever.

[CRISIS]

wow....i cant believe that i missed this thread, very informative and answered a lot of my questions regarding the ancestry & traits behind these dogs.......

[TFX]

The last post is 14 months old now!:lol:

[brokeback]

Some good reading, thanks TFX for sharing!

[dpitbull]

Awesome thread thanks TFX

[loot]

How is the last breeding you spoke of doing? TFX

[Pit Bull Committed]

The real question should be for any fancier looking for descendants of any dog, do you want that dog in the pedigree, or do you want the traits from that dog? Many years ago a fellow brought over a male to my place to be evaluated. The dog was sired by the great GR CH Andy Capp right back to his dam Penny Sue. He was shy, only marginally well conformed, and the rankest kind of cur one might have ever the displeasure of witnessing. Subsequently, this fellow sold the dog to some unsuspecting folks, and he now appears in a number of modern day pedigrees. One could have based a whole yard on the dog and peddled them with great success on the merits of the dog's pedigree alone. Although heavy on the Andy Capp breeding in his pedigree, unfortunately this dog had no more to do with the traits of Andy Capp than did the blue bully mongrel down the road. I visited a yard early this week to pick up a 9 year old sire of my breeding. This fellow had some dogs on his yard down from our old Homer III dog. They aren't very tight on the blood, but they sure do carry the traits of the little dog.

As for "working" Andy Capp dogs, there are 5 of these 2 year olds out there from a litter that are all outstanding individuals by every account I have heard from people on both coasts and in Mexico.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=331142 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=331142)

Once again, although these dogs are not "tight" on Andy Capp, I believe they carry the traits he was best known for. I saw the aftermath of one that was set down with one from this breeding, and it will cause one to marvel for certain at the talent level. Traits skip generations, and as near as I can tell based on my 20+ years of maintianing the same family of dogs and watching them evolve, I think 4 generations is about the average skip rate before traits of any ancestor are outwardly manifested or expressed again. Obviously, this is kind of a simplification and there are many more variables at work, but this has been my observation on average with both performance and physical characteristics. Personally, I paid no attention to this breeding above when it was made because the bottom side is not anything I am real crazy about. Once they matured though, I became a big fan. I firmly believe the Andy Capp traits from both sides of the pedigree cropped up in this group. Incidentally, the "cur trait" seems to crop up at the same 4-5 generation interval. Thus the importance of purification of bloodlines so that it becomes less prevalant. I don't think curs can be totally eliminated from a program, but I think one can drastically raise the average gameness of his stock by eliminating curs.

Here is another "working" breeding that I am doing next week that has an Andy Capp base. I wouldn't say these are Andy Capp dogs, but if you want something that is finer than that potlicker who was sired by Andy Capp to his mama of which I referred to above, I can guarantee most of these will grow up to please the discriminating fancier. When one doesn't change up the recipe except to keep adding more goodness, it is pretty easy to predict what the results will be.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=296011 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=296011)
First off, I like to say I agree with you completely 100%...but I do have some questions. What do you base your selection on? For working hounds, shouldn't it be the box and their ability to produce winners? I guess I'm just a little confuse...when I see a pedigree of a dog where the Rom/Por Gr Ch/ Ch way in the 4th generation. I mean, if those ancestors that are in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd generations were really that great or claimed to carry the "Great" dog's traits then how come they aren't winners or Roms/Pors? It may seem as if I like to see a pretty pedigree but that's not the case. If I don't know all the ancestors in the pedigree personally or know someone that knows those dogs first handed then all I have is the pedigree and past down stories to go by. How many generations of dogs should one keep on breeding without testing them in the box? *Not talking about bs HGT either. I mean don't get me wrong here...Theories and opinions do have their part too in the selection process but wouldn't the actual box reveals what the individual dog could actually do? Just curious and would like to hear your thoughts on it. ;)

Ps... I'm not referring to the pedigrees you posted. Also please excuse my novice questions.

[FrostyPaws]

First thing, it's not all that easy to get a ROM or POR dog to just pop out of a breeding program. When you consider that most dogs never make it to the show, you should consider yourself lucky when you do have dogs that make it there and win.

Second thing, being a winner doesn't necessarily mean anything except your dog beat the dog in front of it. That could mean your average dog beat a dog that quit in 20 minutes, and in the overall way of looking at things, being a winner isn't all that impressive. The only time winning ever meant anything to me was when a quality dog was beaten. Unfortunately, for my dog, we tended to see more quality action at the yard than the show due to selection, breeding, etc etc. So because a dog isn't a winner doesn't mean it's not "tested in the box". It could be something as simple as the dog simply isn't a winner for a variety of reasons.

[Pit Bull Committed]

First thing, it's not all that easy to get a ROM or POR dog to just pop out of a breeding program. When you consider that most dogs never make it to the show, you should consider yourself lucky when you do have dogs that make it there and win.

Second thing, being a winner doesn't necessarily mean anything except your dog beat the dog in front of it. That could mean your average dog beat a dog that quit in 20 minutes, and in the overall way of looking at things, being a winner isn't all that impressive. The only time winning ever meant anything to me was when a quality dog was beaten. Unfortunately, for my dog, we tended to see more quality action at the yard than the show due to selection, breeding, etc etc. So because a dog isn't a winner doesn't mean it's not "tested in the box". It could be something as simple as the dog simply isn't a winner for a variety of reasons.
Fair enough! Well said FrostyPaws! I can see where you're coming from.

[TFX]

I agree with Frosty Paws to some extent. Some of the best dogs I have ever seen had no titles. In my opinion, you're confusing titles with quality Pit Bull Committed. There are numerous reasons why hard tested, extremely high quality dogs are never shown, and thus have no titles. The ROM and POR systems both have flaws, one of them being volume breeding; particularly on the male side, can mask a marginal producer by putting a title behind his name. Conversely, some high percentage producers never got credit due to small scale breeding, poor management, or preservation efforts that didn't allow certain individuals to be exhibited. Don't get me wrong, I like show dogs for my brood dogs as often as possible, I think Jack can attest to that, and at a minimum I have always used hard tested brood stock. Up until 2013, I still had tested dogs to breed to. For me today that is not possible as I don't use the dogs for performance personally, and I am down to a handful of basically pet dogs. There are some guys I am working with to get the bloodline revived a bit, and perhaps they will show some of them down the road.

[Pit Bull Committed]

I agree with Frosty Paws to some extent. Some of the best dogs I have ever seen had no titles. In my opinion, you're confusing titles with quality Pit Bull Committed. There are numerous reasons why hard tested, extremely high quality dogs are never shown, and thus have no titles. The ROM and POR systems both have flaws, one of them being volume breeding; particularly on the male side, can mask a marginal producer by putting a title behind his name. Conversely, some high percentage producers never got credit due to small scale breeding, poor management, or preservation efforts that didn't allow certain individuals to be exhibited. Don't get me wrong, I like show dogs for my brood dogs as often as possible, I think Jack can attest to that, and at a minimum I have always used hard tested brood stock. Up until 2013, I still had tested dogs to breed to. For me today that is not possible as I don't use the dogs for performance personally, and I am down to a handful of basically pet dogs. There are some guys I am working with to get the bloodline revived a bit, and perhaps they will show some of them down the road.

Very well said! Makes a lot sense! In this case if I want to acquire some dogs it'll be best to buy directly from the source or buy from a person I know and can trust. ;)