greatest producer of all time

[bad dog]

ok it took me a minute to figure out how to post a poll (lol) but who do you consider the greatest producer of all time?

[Officially Retired]

My initial reaction was to say Yellow, but I would have to say Buck, because his owner didn't have the yard space that the owners of Yellow did (or Bolio/Eli/Frisco for that matter). The owner of Buck didn't really try to build a bloodline around the dog either, the Buck bloodlines that exist today were essentially created by first- or second-hand customers, and yet Buck compares favorably to these other dogs, despite nowhere near the volume of breedings/effort made.

It would be staggering to imagine the amount of great Buck dogs there would be, if his owner had 100 like-bred bitches to breed to him, and build a bloodline around, as did Yellow's owner (Bolio's owner), etc.

Jack

[R2L]

depends on what you mean. direct offspring or speaking of the line.

Jumbo is one of europe's best producers

http://www.apbtpedigrees.com/printpedigree/out.php?recordID=3697

[Officially Retired]

Looks like a helluva producer.

[bad dog]

buck was great but remember most of his champions had yellow in them :)

[No Quarter Kennel]

How do we factor in production percentage? Myself, I would take a dog who bred 3-5 times and produced 3 champs compared to a dog bred 25 times and produced 5 champs.

What about these dogs? Who are some of the higher percentage producing dogs?

Hammonds' Rufus dog was bred 17 or 18 times in a span of only 2 years of his life. He produced 13 Champions and 2 ROM dogs. Looking at averages, he averages almost a Champion per breeding.

I'm not as versed in other lines and production of key animals in those lines, but in terms of propensity, RUFUS ROM has to be one of the better producing dogs of all-time.

What other dogs fit this category?

[Officially Retired]

How do we factor in production percentage? Myself, I would take a dog who bred 3-5 times and produced 3 champs compared to a dog bred 25 times and produced 5 champs.


You have to have a real working knowledge of the dog, the line, and what it's produced overall to be able to answer that for yourself.

I agree with the premise, however, namely that I would rather breed to the former dog than the latter.




H
What about these dogs? Who are some of the higher percentage producing dogs?
Hammonds' Rufus dog was bred 17 or 18 times in a span of only 2 years of his life. He produced 13 Champions and 2 ROM dogs. Looking at averages, he averages almost a Champion per breeding.
I'm not as versed in other lines and production of key animals in those lines, but in terms of propensity, RUFUS ROM has to be one of the better producing dogs of all-time.
What other dogs fit this category?

I agree with you, quality-wise (and dog-for-dog produced), but I still don't think such a dog could be considered and "all time great" producer, if its overall influence to the game is small. For example Ch Mr. Serious (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=77496) from me produced 2 Grand Champions, a 4xW, and a few 1- and 2x winners, without a single loss, from just a handful of breedings, amassing at least a 17-0 record before he died in the prime of his life. Yet, though I think dog-for-dog-produced, Ch Mr. Serious is as good or better stud as any dog that ever lived, I still don't believe he is an all-time-great stud dog, because he just didn't get the chance to have an overall impact on the sport.

Regarding Rufus ROM, I didn't know he sired so many Champions, but if that is true he certainly is an exceptional stud dog, but here again I am not sure he had the same overall influence as a Jeep or Buck or Yellow, etc.

But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be a better bet to breed to ;)

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

As always, elegantly put. I agree with your sentiments as well.

There are many intangibles to consider as well. Many dogs of previous generations were privy to great dogmen and a complete different set of rules. Some dogs were bred exclusively to good quality bitches, proven from great dogmen who truly knew the stock which was bred.

A great number of factors are to be considered when discussing the great producers of this breed.....no doubt.

[bolero]

your missing a hell of a lot of great producers on that list. percentage wise a lot of those dogs were not good producers and on that list eli prob had the best percents as he was bred the least out of those dogs jeep had the balls bred off of him and so did frisco, and yellow like jack said buck could arguably be better as he was not bred much either.

[evolutionkennels]

I like mayday in that list.

[FrostyPaws]

I would put Jackson's Hank on that list. He produced 6 or 7 3xwinners or more in 5 breedings before he died in the prime of his life. Unfortunately, the only dog from Hank's production that really got anywhere, production wise, was Jocko. Without him being bred to the Yellow John bitches, he wouldn't be where he was either.

I would also vote for Tombstone for what he accomplished being bred to 7 bitches, and a line of dogs has revolved around him for decades. That line has evolved into the backbone of many high powered dogs even unto this day.

[Officially Retired]

Not that this has anything to do with production, but didn't Gr Ch Buck beat Yellow's multi-winning brother Gainey's JR?

Jack

[bolero]

ART

[EWO]

For me polls like these are apples and oranges. For every great thing Buck did there is a guy will tell you Frisco produced better. And everything Frisco produced is crap compared to Yellow. And there would be no reference to Yellow without mentioning Jocko. And then that guy in the corner will tell you about Redboy owning the game for thirty years. Too many opinions and most of those opinions are based on another person's opinion. I do agree, it is fun reading, but sometimes even fun reading is pointless. It is only a handful of people that personally witnessed these dogs, or even better, actually owned a dog right off them. But there are thousands that will tell you adamantly which is better and why the other is crap.
And as I climb down off the soapbox, I will join the masses. I like Bolio and Redboy. Mostly because some of my best dogs were heavily bred from both of these dogs and then crossed. Since Redboy did not make the list I would vote Bolio 1 and Yellow 2.
And thirdly. I like it when there are explanations behind the choices. Makes for more fun and pointless reading. EWO

[sam i am]

Eli

[EWO]

Like posted several years ago some of the most pointless conversations/threads are the most enjoyable.

I'm still in the Red Boy Bolio camp but I'd like to throw Snooty in there too.

Maybe the question should differentiate between the performance of the direct off spring and the line as a whole?

Tips the scales a bit.

EWO

[apeman]

Like posted several years ago some of the most pointless conversations/threads are the most enjoyable.

I'm still in the Red Boy Bolio camp but I'd like to throw Snooty in there too.

Maybe the question should differentiate between the performance of the direct off spring and the line as a whole?

Tips the scales a bit.

EWO

Best producer of all time is entirely subjective, but "most influential sire" may be a better poll as you have look at in terms of lines as a whole.

[Norm87]

I definitely agree with most of what you said about Buck other than him being bred less than the other choices as Eli was bred far less than any of them including Buck. As far as which was the best producer out of them it will depend on whether where going by percentage of quality individuals produced or overall impact on the breed as a whole whole. If going by the latter I’d say Eli no question due to the amount of lines/families that were built off the Eli/Boudreaux family of dogs

[EWO]

And then I will add another variable on overall impact or winning matches?

Overall impact from the poll I would go with Yellow because he was down out of Red Boy and a Hank bred Jocko dog. I would lean toward Yellow because those first Jocko-Red Boy dogs were hard mouthed, rough, durable and all night game, just dumb as a stump. Affectionately referred to back then as dumb ol' Jocko-Red Boy dogs. From there with the addition of the Bolio (Hollingsworth) we get to the Mayday family (which may need to be on the list as well). So if we start with Yellow the number of wins has to be higher, or at least as high, as any one dog out there.

But if I went with over-all impact to the game which would include winning matches, selling puppies, and puppies bought just to be bred to sell more puppies the list gets very short and Red Boy becomes a no-doubter. There are no lines out there in the last forty years that sell puppies like Red Boy. A "pure" Red Boy puppy will sell faster than any other line out there regardless of the parents nor the owner of the dog. There are tons of 'pure' Red Boy dogs out there that, just like their entire six generation pedigree, has never seen the box but kept someone's brood pen full at every given opportunity.

At the same time there are lots of people who work their Red Boy dogs but seldom are they successful when they are pure or even heavy.

Then factor the Red Boy family crosses well with just about anything. Jocko-Jeep-Eli-Bolio-Snooty-RBJ-Mayday. Just about anything.

Over all impact my vote would be Red Boy but he did not make the list. From there I would vote Yellow.

Great topic.

EWO

[State Bull]

I would roll with Yellow and Bolio. Both are good choices. Both are Dibo/Colby based. You add Buck blood and you have great results!