mouth work

[scary]

What kind of bone pigear ect.. do you all think is best for working a dogs mouth out???

[Fatcat]

Big rawhide bones work great for us

[scary]

Big rawhide bones work great for us

I may be worng but i thought rawhide wasn't good for your dogs??

[Officially Retired]

Uncooked, beef shank bones are preferred IMO.

[YigYang]

honestly coming from experience it isnt needing unless you have a spring poll which also strenghens there neck. I have fed many dogs my entire carreer and i have came to a conclusion that the bite they have comes from there work. If you condition a dog good he will have a better bite than the dog that is less conditioned because there mouth will not get as tired fast. Trust me! Its not needed

[Officially Retired]

honestly coming from experience it isnt needing unless you have a spring poll which also strenghens there neck. I have fed many dogs my entire carreer and i have came to a conclusion that the bite they have comes from there work. If you condition a dog good he will have a better bite than the dog that is less conditioned because there mouth will not get as tired fast. Trust me! Its not needed

I disagree with you on some matters here, agree with you on others.

1. A dog's ability to "bite hard" is 100% genetic;
[list:m2bszt9e]a) You can take a freak mouth dog off the chain, with no work, and he will still be a freak-mouth dog;
b) You can work a mush-mouth dog as hard as you want, and all he will ever be is a well-conditioned mush-mouth dog;
2. Working a dog's mouth does enable them to use whatever mouth they have longer.
a) The jaw and mandible muscles are muscles, and as such can be conditioned too.[/list:u:m2bszt9e]
Therefore, I think adding something for "conditioning the jaw muscles," while it may not turn your dog into Zebo, it will allow him to use whatever biting power he does have over a longer, sustained period of time.

Jack

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[Deadend]

I agree with that jack, hard,honest mouth comes from genetics,Not from extreme work from the hide.

[YigYang]

i agree with what you just said.
This brings me to a thought that i have been trying to get a great explaintion for.



A dog's ability to "bite hard" is 100% genetic;

Based on scientfic facts that a animals bite force is impacted and contributed by the animals jaw stucture, jaw muscles, and weight.
but how can this be if there bite force in 100% genetic.

For example lets you Bass Tramp Redboy.
redboy was a pretty good 52lbs dog that had a good size head, and jaw structure but lacked mouth(a hard bite)
Since he threw that trait into his offspring they lacked mouth as well as i have understood. Therefore they wanted to add mouth to the redboy dogs so they cross it with a Jocko dog that was known to have a great mouth(hard bite) who was matched between 46lbs- 48lbs.

Yes it might be true that there Mouth is 100% genetic, then we are proven science false




honestly coming from experience it isnt needing unless you have a spring poll which also strenghens there neck. I have fed many dogs my entire carreer and i have came to a conclusion that the bite they have comes from there work. If you condition a dog good he will have a better bite than the dog that is less conditioned because there mouth will not get as tired fast. Trust me! Its not needed

I disagree with you on some matters here, agree with you on others.

1. A dog's ability to "bite hard" is 100% genetic;
[list:49cijk7i]a) You can take a freak mouth dog off the chain, with no work, and he will still be a freak-mouth dog;
b) You can work a mush-mouth dog as hard as you want, and all he will ever be is a well-conditioned mush-mouth dog;
2. Working a dog's mouth does enable them to use whatever mouth they have longer.
a) The jaw and mandible muscles are muscles, and as such can be conditioned too.[/list:u:49cijk7i]
Therefore, I think adding something for "conditioning the jaw muscles," while it may not turn your dog into Zebo, it will allow him to use whatever biting power he does have over a longer, sustained period of time.

Jack

.

[Officially Retired]

i agree with what you just said.
This brings me to a thought that i have been trying to get a great explaintion for.
Based on scientfic facts that a animals bite force is impacted and contributed by the animals jaw stucture, jaw muscles, and weight.
but how can this be if there bite force in 100% genetic.
For example lets you Bass Tramp Redboy.
redboy was a pretty good 52lbs dog that had a good size head, and jaw structure but lacked mouth(a hard bite)
Since he threw that trait into his offspring they lacked mouth as well as i have understood. Therefore they wanted to add mouth to the redboy dogs so they cross it with a Jocko dog that was known to have a great mouth(hard bite) who was matched between 46lbs- 48lbs.
Yes it might be true that there Mouth is 100% genetic, then we are proven science false


Proving science false? I think you just need to really comprehend what you're reading.

1) If an animal's bite force is based on jaw structure, jaw muscles, and weight(??) ... are you trying to say that "training" affects basic jaw structure and muscle structure?
2) If Redboy dogs don't have mouth (genetically), and if you have to add Jocko blood to them to give them mouth (= add different genetics), where are you extrapolating the idea that "training" is affecting mouth performance?
In other words, why don't you just "train" Redboy dogs to bite harder, if conditioning is all that's required to get it? Why are you having to breed different genetics into them to get mouth?

Jack

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[wrknapbt]

As some of you may or maynot know I do a dog sport called Schutzhund. One of the things that gets judged hard in this sport is the grip of the dog.
The judges are looking for deep, full, hard grips. When looking for a working puppy to do the sport with we tend to seleted the pup with this deep full hard grip that has it naturally as there are too many other things to work on in this sport such as the dreaded tracking and the obediance phase.

ADBA CH Candela V. Torque at 5 weeks old
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Kooza%20Pups/grips.jpg
and 18 months old
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/badbitch3.jpg


If you would take notice this female pup above has a full grip alreay in this photo at 5 weeks old and it was hard too. During training when dog dont have the hard grip we do things like give them misses before they get the grip so that when they do get it they bite it hard. I had one female that then took hunting and everytime she worked a hog she would go deep and hard mouth on it because it's all she knew.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091123.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091139.jpg

This is the above pup's sire at 9.5 years old earning his Sch III title. If you look close you will see the bend in the decoy's sleeve becuase the grip is so nice full and hard.

This is his half brother Marshall's RCA (whitehead) Sch III FH II DVG National Champion. Displaying the same type of natural mouth and grip

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Training005.jpg

[bluebeard]

As some of you may or maynot know I do a dog sport called Schutzhund. One of the things that gets judged hard in this sport is the grip of the dog.
The judges are looking for deep, full, hard grips. When looking for a working puppy to do the sport with we tend to seleted the pup with this deep full hard grip that has it naturally as there are too many other things to work on in this sport such as the dreaded tracking and the obediance phase.

ADBA CH Candela V. Torque at 5 weeks old
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Kooza%20Pups/grips.jpg
and 18 months old
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/badbitch3.jpg


If you would take notice this female pup above has a full grip alreay in this photo at 5 weeks old and it was hard too. During training when dog dont have the hard grip we do things like give them misses before they get the grip so that when they do get it they bite it hard. I had one female that then took hunting and everytime she worked a hog she would go deep and hard mouth on it because it's all she knew.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091123.jpg

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091139.jpg

This is the above pup's sire at 9.5 years old earning his Sch III title. If you look close you will see the bend in the decoy's sleeve becuase the grip is so nice full and hard.

This is his half brother Marshall's RCA (whitehead) Sch III FH II DVG National Champion. Displaying the same type of natural mouth and grip

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Training005.jpg


i know not everyone agrees with this form of "working" but it's good to see somone working their hounds showing the versatility of the breed :!: 8-)

[Officially Retired]

As some of you may or maynot know I do a dog sport called Schutzhund. One of the things that gets judged hard in this sport is the grip of the dog.
The judges are looking for deep, full, hard grips. When looking for a working puppy to do the sport with we tend to select the pup with this deep full hard grip that has it naturally as there are too many other things to work on in this sport such as the dreaded tracking and the obediance phase.

Yep.

I have owned and raised more puppies than 999,999 out of every million people ... and I've raised/trained/worked them all pretty much the same ... and yet there is a WIDE VARIETY of abilities that have resulted out of the many breedings/pups I have created ... while my effort as a breeder had been to streamline everything and get "more of the same" genetically out of my gene pool.

That said, regarding extreme abilities, I would say that out of all those dogs I have bred and raised over the years, only 2 other dogs have been able to close the deal like Silverback. The truth is, I could "train" every pup I breed to my heart's content, but unless they have it genetically I am not going to get that finishing trait. This kind of selection is the entire cornerstone of breeding success, and a total lack thereof in the "proper selection" department is the sum and substance responsible for every failed breeding program ...

Not to mention the truth in the age-old adage: "The biggest mistake in conditioning is conditioning the wrong dog ..."

Jack

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[wrknapbt]

i know not everyone agrees with this form of "working" but it's good to see somone working their hounds showing the versatility of the breed :!: 8-)


Thanks Blue but many just don't understand how hard it is to do this sport and keep the control that is required by a high prey drive aniaml like the APBT

this is the Bark and hold where the dog has to do a blind search find the decoy and perform close strong barking without touching or griping the sleeve
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091108.jpg

This a open field bark and hold after I've given the out command from the grip after the decoy tried to escape and gave the dog 2 HARD stick hits across the body.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091133.jpg

and to show the control put on the dog after all of those grips we have to escort the decoy back to the judge and the trial chair and hand the judge the stick/weapon that he used to assult the dog with.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp1123091172.jpg

oh my favorite shot ever of my mutt is this one of him displaying a deep nose and great tracking of a 1 hour old scent trail.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/mommy2kane/Torque%20Sch%20III/dogcomp112309179.jpg

[Officially Retired]

I definitely agree that Schutzhund is a fascinating and worthy effort with the APBT.

A daughter of Poncho, Vera's Ch Cinnamon (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=79028), was actually close to being the only "triple-crown" dog that I know of ... being an ADBA Conformation Champion, a Schutzhund I, and a 2xW. If she would have won one more deal, she would have been a "Triple Crown Dog" :)

Jack


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[wrknapbt]

I definitely agree that Schutzhund is a fascinating and worthy effort with the APBT.

A daughter of Poncho, Vera's Ch Cinnamon (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=79028), was actually close to being the only "triple-crown" dog that I know of ... being an ADBA Conformation Champion, a Schutzhund I, and a 2xW. If she would have won one more deal, she would have been a "Triple Crown Dog" :)

Jack


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Would have loved to have something off her. DAMMIT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Officially Retired]

Would have loved to have something off her. DAMMIT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, me too. She was supposed to get bred back to Poncho, as part of the deal, but you know how most "dog deals" go :roll:


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[scary]

Would have loved to have something off her. DAMMIT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, me too. She was supposed to get bred back to Poncho, as part of the deal, but you know how most "dog deals" go :roll:


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YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN JACK LOL

[kmcg]

can you work a dogs mouth daily like you can work your abs daily?
I like the rubber 3'' in diameter squeezy balls. dont know what theyre called but the noise gets the dogs going and they are pretty durable except for the feet.

[Officially Retired]

It would all depend on what you call "work." (15 minutes? 2 hours?)

I honestly don't think anybody works any body part "every day without rest"; however, I understand what you're saying and I don't think a dog chewing a Kong Ball for an hour a day is going to hurt him.

However, 2 hours of springpole work will cut his gums up a bit, and he needs to be allowed to heal inbetween times.

Jack


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[PurePit19]

" Based on scientfic facts that a animals bite force is impacted and contributed by the animals jaw stucture, jaw muscles, and weight.
but how can this be if there bite force in 100% genetic. "

The bite force of a animal is determined by body size, weight and jaw size amongst other things to be able to put a accurate number down for the bite force of the test subject. This does not mean that size, weight and jaw size determine if a dog can bite hard or not. Also, you can train and condition for a hard bite, there is still no way of making the dog bite harder than it wants too. ( some dogs don't try to break bones everytime they bite a hog) I do believe in working the mouth just like any other muscle to prepare him for his job.