Sometimes they can't see the forest because of the trees

They say the only thing that stays consistent is change and I believe them.
In the past long before the internet and so on not all shared the same concept about line are bred based on how famous a dog was nor the famous person family just because it played a small part in the overall dog.

If people in the past thought as allot do in the present, then it would never be any of the famous dogs or different families outside some of the oldest and earliest dogs and families that helped stated the breed.

You would not have Eli or Redboy nor would you have Jeep nor Alligator.
You wouldn't have a Dibo nor Cotton's Bullet and none of the past dogs or families of dogs.

Not by how allot judge dogs and families in these times.
I know over simplifying thigs have done more harm than good over the years.
Sometimes breaking things down to the very basic is needed or else the topic can and will get off course. It will have new meaning and different meaning if not specified.


If it starts with a certain person and ends with that person than everything else is just added to what a person starts and finish themselves when breeding dogs.

IF it's just one person name in so many generations does not automatically mean the dog is inbred. It just means 1 breeder bred that dog for so many generations.

A dog is not based on a famous name nor breeder it's based on who bred the dog and how many generations did they have influence. Buying 2 dogs does not make that your bloodline. It's makes it the start of your bloodline after you have bred so many generations. If you buy 2 dogs and sell the pup than it's not really a bloodline yet.

If you buy 2 dogs and breed something from the 1st breeding to another and take something from that and breed it to something now you have a bloodline, and the 1st dogs count as a part of it.

If you buy 2 related dogs from a single breeder with an established bloodline and breed them, they are still the other guy's dogs until you add something to it that the original breeder did not do himself. Example breeding 2 Heinzl dogs straight from Heinzl does not make it your bloodline but shows you are still breeding Heinzl bloodline. Add Jeep or anything to those and you have your own bloodline.

1 dog cannot be a handful of dogs, but it can have a handful of ingredients that makes up that dog.
I like to use my own as examples. There was more than 1 dozen different families that my base dogs composed of. I simply tightened up for so many generations to get MY OWN dog. Once that happened, I tightened up on that and had something no one else had or done. Those dogs were not based on famous bloodlines or dogs in them but what dogs I had hands on with. Now from this new trees grew from my family tree and created new strains of my dogs. Each based on what I had hands on with and not what I crossed with.

Just because famous was added did not make then that bloodline.

Again, nothing is the same once new stuff is added. They are new ingredients but not the same old strain.

Many of new dogs had come and go so as families of dogs. These dogs today are not the same old dogs when crossed with other dogs. For them to stay the old they must be kept pure the old.

I used probably over 30 different strains or families over the last decades creating my own. No dog is 30 strains, but all can be a combo of 30 strains into something different than all 30 strains.

All of my dogs go back to Strick Nine aka Ziggy. My foundation I created from scratch.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55963

All of my dogs I feed in these dogs come down from Johnie Rockhead a dog that bottom side came down from Strick Nine.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55947

So just because you see man of families and combined with my dogs you still can't confuse it becoming something different than Johnie dogs.

New branches sprouted from Johnie just like Johnie sprouted from Ziggy. Dogs like Crossfire http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55944 , Mango http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55941 , Riggs & Shaker http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=69537 , Black Dragon http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=90160 and so on. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...3&dam_id=93906 .

Sometimes they can't see the forest because the trees are in the way.

They are still Hicks dogs, and they still go back to Johnie Rockhead just as sometnig like this

well put I plan to do something similar with the Bolio dogs I run.

I can go with some of this, but it's not 100%. While 2 dogs can be purchased from a particular breeder and most times, majority, they are dogs of that line for sure.

But, if these dogs are Joe Blow dogs but don't measure up to the buyers standards, then adios Muchacho. My point to this I can argue a dog becomes a man's dog, 1. When he buys it and more importantly 2. When the dog is selected by the buyer to fit his criteria, regardless of breeders intent or criteria.

A dog of Joe Blow family might be more a Garner (For example) type that the buyer decides to claim as a player on his team.

All the college players for Alabama might not fit the "type," of player the Chiefs need. But if selected by the Chiefs, they are now CHIEFS.....not Crimson Tide

It's splitting hairs, I know, but we all need to be contributing to conversation here and help develop this site to greater heights.

Just bc Jack made this site don't mean this dog ain't Breckfaces "dog" now...:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hugh Glass

I can go with some of this, but it's not 100%. While 2 dogs can be purchased from a particular breeder and most times, majority, they are dogs of that line for sure.

But, if these dogs are Joe Blow dogs but don't measure up to the buyers standards, then adios Muchacho. My point to this I can argue a dog becomes a man's dog, 1. When he buys it and more importantly 2. When the dog is selected by the buyer to fit his criteria, regardless of breeders intent or criteria.

A dog of Joe Blow family might be more a Garner (For example) type that the buyer decides to claim as a player on his team.

All the college players for Alabama might not fit the "type," of player the Chiefs need. But if selected by the Chiefs, they are now CHIEFS.....not Crimson Tide

It's splitting hairs, I know, but we all need to be contributing to conversation here and help develop this site to greater heights.

Just bc Jack made this site don't mean this dog ain't Breckfaces "dog" now...:)

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Excellent point

I agree with most of your post. Great points.

However, I disagree with your point of breeding another's dogs. It is all about selection. If I bought two dogs form you and then bred them, from that point they are my dogs and possibly the start of what I am doing going forward.

I say that because of selection. I may have bought dog #1 and dog #2 from you and if they were still yours you may have bred them to your Dog #3 based on your past experience with your family of dogs.

When I breed dog #1 and dog #2 that is based on what I seen, what I am looking for, and what I hope to get. All those things are different at your house.

Will the pedigree still suggest they are your dogs? Yep. But if I went a different route than you that separates me and you and then become the first real disconnect between you and the line that breaks off from your family of dogs.

Great post. Good insight.

EWO

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=95353

We had dogs bred like this for just about twenty years. We won a lot of shows with straight Mims dogs.

When we bred Mims to Mims we could never get the same dogs as we were trying to replicate/duplicate the work of arguably the greatest breeder of game dogs ever.

If the dogs we bred were with him he would probably breed them a different way. Similarly related, but we were making breeding decisions on what we saw in those two dogs. He was making decisions on what those dogs had done for the previous 50-60 years.

Where we found success for a long period of time was outcrossing his dogs. His three way bred dogs from Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio bred to another family looked as scatter bred as all get out. When we bred those dogs back to a Mims dog we got high percentage game litters with a lot of show dogs. So we sort of stumbled into the pattern of Mims to an out-back to a Mims-then out and then in. It created a lot of good dogs for us over the years.

As Carl so eloquently spoke. "I don't know why you want to mix chicken shit with chicken salad", and that is where he explained once we made the breeding it was no longer a Mims dog but it was 'our' dog.

Basically you can't own a couple dogs and know what a guy knows that had those dogs for 6-8-10-12 generations or 20-25 years tied to one family.

I'm not saying take credit for the other guy's work. I am saying at some point there is a line drawn in the sand and on the other side of that lawn belongs to the next guy.

EWO

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=95352

This male is going to be the first one where we went out and I am not going back into the Mims family with his first breeding. (Mostly because the number of Mims dogs left is forever dwindling) He will be bred to a fairly straight Eli bitch from the Cardenas/Kronos/Beaudreaux dogs but she has one shot of Red Boy in the back.

The reason I am choosing these two is that they are both match quality dogs. Both have insane drive and insane motors to match. They both are non-stop movers on the chain and both are extremely athletic. Both are pound for pound strong and the Eli female can just about breathe underwater.

I have no earthly idea what I am going to get. Hopefully some bulldogs, but I am guessing they could be all over the map. Black dogs, brindle dogs, big dogs, little dogs, mouth from nothing to monster, and ear suckers to finishers and pretty much anywhere in between.

Time will tell.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

I agree with most of your post. Great points.

However, I disagree with your point of breeding another's dogs. It is all about selection. If I bought two dogs form you and then bred them, from that point they are my dogs and possibly the start of what I am doing going forward.

I say that because of selection. I may have bought dog #1 and dog #2 from you and if they were still yours you may have bred them to your Dog #3 based on your past experience with your family of dogs.

When I breed dog #1 and dog #2 that is based on what I seen, what I am looking for, and what I hope to get. All those things are different at your house.

Will the pedigree still suggest they are your dogs? Yep. But if I went a different route than you that separates me and you and then become the first real disconnect between you and the line that breaks off from your family of dogs.

Great post. Good insight.

EWO

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Agreed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

I agree with most of your post. Great points.

However, I disagree with your point of breeding another's dogs. It is all about selection. If I bought two dogs form you and then bred them, from that point they are my dogs and possibly the start of what I am doing going forward.

I say that because of selection. I may have bought dog #1 and dog #2 from you and if they were still yours you may have bred them to your Dog #3 based on your past experience with your family of dogs.

When I breed dog #1 and dog #2 that is based on what I seen, what I am looking for, and what I hope to get. All those things are different at your house.

Will the pedigree still suggest they are your dogs? Yep. But if I went a different route than you that separates me and you and then become the first real disconnect between you and the line that breaks off from your family of dogs.

Great post. Good insight.

EWO

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Spot on. Good points made

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=95353

We had dogs bred like this for just about twenty years. We won a lot of shows with straight Mims dogs.

When we bred Mims to Mims we could never get the same dogs as we were trying to replicate/duplicate the work of arguably the greatest breeder of game dogs ever.

If the dogs we bred were with him he would probably breed them a different way. Similarly related, but we were making breeding decisions on what we saw in those two dogs. He was making decisions on what those dogs had done for the previous 50-60 years.

Where we found success for a long period of time was outcrossing his dogs. His three way bred dogs from Red Boy-Snooty-Bolio bred to another family looked as scatter bred as all get out. When we bred those dogs back to a Mims dog we got high percentage game litters with a lot of show dogs. So we sort of stumbled into the pattern of Mims to an out-back to a Mims-then out and then in. It created a lot of good dogs for us over the years.

As Carl so eloquently spoke. "I don't know why you want to mix chicken shit with chicken salad", and that is where he explained once we made the breeding it was no longer a Mims dog but it was 'our' dog.

Basically you can't own a couple dogs and know what a guy knows that had those dogs for 6-8-10-12 generations or 20-25 years tied to one family.

I'm not saying take credit for the other guy's work. I am saying at some point there is a line drawn in the sand and on the other side of that lawn belongs to the next guy.

EWO

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Well spoken.