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I do understand what you're saying ... but (for example) at 10 generations, Poncho is 15% Dibo ... and Big John is 0% Dibo ...
But at 14 generations Big John is 7% Dibo ... so Poncho and Big John (at vastly different points in their pedigrees) do share Dibo a bit ... but that doesn't mean they are even remotely related.
Hope this makes sense.
But any way that was a fun topic ,time to move on .we starting to act like that other board had to catch myself.
Lol, true.
It's kinda fascinating how many dogs share distant relatives ... but then branch off in so many directions.
Butcher Boy, Bolio, and Boomerang have many common ancestors. Tombstone too. Yet they each carry different traits.
I don't know the RB dogs as well, but there's a lot of Colby ties if I remember right ... into Loposay, as you mentioned.
I would say most can trace back to ColbyQuote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
In each line it comes down to the breeder ,as what trait he is trying to master .if a man has enough time in life he can breed just about any trait .if he is strict and has common sense.in his breeding practice .
Like all Eli are not heavy mouth depends on the breeder
They can all trace their ancestors back to monkeys anyway or is that us.
I would agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
Wolves are the same. Coyotes are the same. Dogs would be the same if it were not for the fact dogs are bred by people and those dogs use nature as a guide. Dibo, Poncho, Bolio, Bullet are all 'related' in the sense they are all pit bulldogs and at some point the pedigrees/ancestry would inevitably cross paths. The reason there is more uniformity in the Wolf population is there is no man to pick and choose what traits to breed for, or heck, some even choose by color.
Same reason Waccamaw RBJ dogs can be different from Tant's RBJ dogs. Lots of shared family members but can be different dogs altogether. Same with the Red Boy dogs. They can all be Red Boy dogs but the different breeders breeding for different reasons make different dogs.
With that said, and it is only a personal opinion, with it and $.75 you might be able to buy a soft drink, once a breeder sells a dog it is the first step in that dog no longer being a part of the original breeder's line. The second owner will not make all the same decisions, raise the same way, school the same way, cull the same way and in the end breed the same way. If I buy two Waccamaw dogs and breed them based on what I am looking for then they revert back to being RBJ dogs more so than Waccamaw RBJ dogs. Same with any other line, because in fact, that is how the lines are created. Every line has to start somewhere and if all the 'somewheres' are traced back, eventually they will connect.
Great topic. And even better opening line. I didn't really care about the facts or statistics, or even the opinions, it was a really cool wording. EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I'II take him off your hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
The 3 best I've seen have not a drop of Yellow, redboy/jocko blood in them. I've experienced the opposite from the line. They lacked smarts and ability from the ones I saw. Great, legendary bloodline for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
That is pretty much the way it's been for me. I have owned a few, schooled with a bunch, and known plenty with a lot of that stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckyDukes
The pure ones I've seen have been slow and dumb by my standards. A couple had some real good mouth though.
The best ones I have seen seemed very rugged, and very determined, but again were slow.
Seen a couple of crosses that were pretty darned good, the whole package, but I have seen some crosses that were rank curs too. And I do mean rank.
But my Top 30 List of the absolute best dogs I have seen (dogs that were super-fast, freak-strong, athletic, smart, absolutely determined, with finish) has none of that blood in it.
Jack
Wolves..however... The reference to humans coming from monkeys is stupid. We share a common ancestor...we don't come from monkeys.. a few million years ago.. Yes.we were indeed one hominid..as evolution happened... One branched off into monkeys...one into humans... And if you don't believe that...compare DNA.. chimps and us DNA is 96% identicalQuote:
Originally Posted by swampdawg
Way back when I was a youngster, and they were Jocko-Redboy dogs, they often referred to as dumb 'ol Jocko-Redboy dogs. You have to beat the hell out of them, as they just keep coming, sometimes just to be coming. They bite hard and they just stay. Dogs wilted under them from time and pressure. Then over time things got better thru selection.
I think the original Red Boy dogs were the same. They had some shortcomings in the beginning and lots of those were corrected and then they were "RED BOY" dogs. Popularity and mass production have left most of them to be 'red boy' dogs. I do not see that as much with the RB-J (JR-B) dogs. EWO
That makes sense ... except that all the ones I have seen (the good ones) ... were pretty much still "slow, dumb dogs that kept at it" ... and the only improvement to that basic package was when the Bolio blood was added to it, not by adding more RBJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Bolio dogs are the ones who add the speed/brains to most of what they get blended with ... especially the right Bolio dogs ;)
Jack
I definitely like it blended with the Hollingsworth blood. My rbj blood is coming thru this. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=16860 They have speed and ability like my Vise Grip dogs. They are game tuff durable smart dogs. I must say that my Vise Grip dogs are freakishly strong athletic and smart . That's why I love the breeding I just made http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...eeding_id=4808 I know they will be Awesome!!!! Can't wait.. Blueprint
Very nice! You should definitely get some good ones :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueprint
... but DAMN you have your dogs too fat ... way too fat :-t
Reckon I will have to keep him .ha,ha.Quote:
Originally Posted by loot
I can tell you this, nobody wont tell you that. The dogs we hunt with are slow ,weak,dumb ,no mouth .i. Fact our dogs are extremely fast on trail,and death on a pigs heel.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
A lot of the RBJ dogs now have to many outs .same with a lot of other dogs ,and as far as all these smart fast tombstone bolio dogs only a few out there ,and I am not going on hear say ,and I will give that to evolution ,and Bullard .and they had RBJ in them ,well Bullard put RBJ in his after a few hunts .these are the only two that has traits I like .
Yeah Jack they are FAT! LOL I always fatten them up around breeding time. I'm guilty of over doing it. Been giving plenty extra in hope of a large healthy litter.
Better to fat than to poorQuote:
Originally Posted by Blueprint
Better in excellent athletic shape, fed the best food possible, than either fat or poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
This is my point exactly. Selection. I am willing to bet the dogs you are working today are better than the dogs from yesterday. That happens through selection.
and which Bullard? Bullard of Ch. Jack and Daisy ROM? EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
How fat was this dog ,I now have an image of a barrle with legsQuote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Click on the link of her being bred. She used to shine like new money, and be rippling with muscles. Now she IS a "barrel with legs" ...
I read that, went out ran three of my dogs on the mill just out of guilt. EWO
The day before I bred them. Don't look so fat does he.
Same dogs different angle :shocked:
I appreciate your attempt to be civil, but even those tiny, poor-quality photos can't hide the fact they look way too fat, plain and simple.
Ray Charles could see that.
Jack
Carry on as you are then. I am not going to debate someone who's impervious to education.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueprint
Anyone who says my dogs are "too thin" is simply an ignorant newbie that has NO IDEA what ANYTHING looks like in optimal shape.
Here's the dog I have now, Amazon, and she looks like how a dog should look, if her owner actually knows what kind of shape an ATHLETE should be in: lean, NO excess fat, shiny coat.
Again, as they say, a picture's worth a thousand words, so let's take a look at the photos Coca-Rilla now:
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum..._000213_01.jpg
My Way
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum..._02.jpg?453025
Your Way
Yeah, everybody has an opinion. But you need to have the sense to recognize the opinion of someone who's never accomplished anything versus THE OPINION OF SOMEONE WHO'S BRED WINNERS ALL OVER THE WORLD ... and you need to have the sense to know WHICH opinion to listen to when opinions differ.
Babbling a lot of meaningless phrases ("6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other" ... "it is what it is" ... etc.) is a substitute for you saying anything of worth in response. And that is because you're ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE = ZERO.
So here's another phrase for you, "Some people have something to say, while others have to say something."
Like I said, you should just STOP talking and LISTEN to what I am saying. I am not trying to "hurt you" ... I am trying TO HELP my dog ... that is in DEPLORABLE CONDITION while in your care.
What you call "care" is malpractice.
Jack
I never said I'm not listening you've just been very disrespectful and rude as usual. I said from the jump I value and RESPECT your advice.
I am sorry, but I am very angry.
Disrespectful to you? Showing me my bitch looking like that is disrespectful to me (and to her).
When you first sent me her photos, I told you she looked terrible, and you said to me you were going to feed her an optimal raw diet.
I liked you and I believed you.
Clearly, that dog is NOT in optimal health nor being fed an optimal diet.
I have "educated eyes" ... and they can't be fooled. I know what an optimally-raw-fed dog looks like, and (in your care) she does not look like that.
I also know that bitch personally, and I know what she SHOULD look like (and what she DID look like) while under my care ... and it sure isn't how she's looking now.
"Listening" to someone means more than just "reading their words," it means adopting the practices they recommend because what they say actually resonates with you.
It is not much more difficult to feed and do everything optimally, so it is still amazing to me how SO MANY choose not to.
Jack
All my studs are producing great ,that is why they are my studs we are very strict on breeding ,but different peeps have their favs ,some like rattler a lot and some swear by little thunder and crazy eyes jr .Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueprint
Thanks Wac for the reply. I'm definitely interested in getting some of your blood to add to the program. I've like your blood since seeing them hunt awhile ago. Looking forward ..... Blueprint
My apologies to everyone for flipping out when I saw the condition of Coca-Rilla, but it just makes me sick to see a wonderful, healthy, athletic animal turned into a fat cow due to ignorant ownership.
I am trying to apologize here, but I am again getting furious the more I think of it ... so I am not sure, even now, if I can spit out a proper apology.
The idea that feeding an animal extra helpings of lousy food, and making her hog-fat, is a way to get "more and healthier pups" is so ignorant, so backward, that it really is insane.
Again, that is like believing that over-feeding your wife, until she too is hog-fat, will ensure "more children are born" and that those children will be "healthier" :rolleyes:
It is simply ignorant; it is simply malpractice.
There is no other way to describe this mindset.
Intelligent people, who actually have studied the subjects of nutrition and reproduction, make sure their wives are in shape, and that they're eating the best food possible, prior to conception and on into gestation.
And intelligent dog breeders do the same thing with their animals. There is nothing to debate; that's just the way it is.
Being fat doesn't produce "more eggs" in a female; the amount of eggs she produces is controlled biologically.
The only thing that can be affected in the mother is the health of her eggs (as well as herself), which is controlled by THE QUALITY of the food, not "the quantity" of substandard food.
More importantly, the ease of her pregnancy (and delivery!) is controlled by her being IN shape versus OUT OF shape, as having strong stomach muscles and optimal condition make it easier for her to push more effectively.
This is especially true with small bitches having to "push out" large pups.
In essence, Blueprint is doing everything wrong, and has nothing to say but, "It is what it is" ... and "6 of 1, half-dozen of the other" ... as a response. Just mindless prattle as a defense mechanism for his malpractice.
Oh, and he says "he respects me" ... after flagrantly disregarding every piece of advice he's ever received ... and following what other no-names do instead (his "peers" as he says).
I am sorry, but I can't take and digest pure bullship like that very well.
I showed my respect to Hollingsworth's advice on how to breed dogs, by following his basic principles, of doubling-up on the key dogs, from all-game litters, and I profited immensely by doing so.
I showed my respect by taking the time to write a book about his breedings, pointing out what he was doing, as A BLUEPRINT FOR SUCCESS, and those others who have imitated what he did have profited also.
That, to me, is "respect" ... as opposed to disregarding everything the old man told me.
Ultimately, I find it ironic, Blueprint, that you call yourself "Blueprint," when you can't even follow the very Blueprints of Success you're given as to the proper way to feed, keep, and breed dogs.
Very ironic indeed. Someday when you stop repeating vapid bromides, and actually pay attention, you will discover that you should have paid attention to the pearls you were being given.
But, unfortunately, only your dogs' health will ultimately be suffering from your malpractice.
Anyway, I can't be any nicer than this, given how angry I am.
But I have at least taken out the posts where I am flat cussing this guy out (as well as re-worded others).
I shouldn't have done gotten so vulgar, so I apologize for not better controlling my outrage.
But my outrage is still my outrage ...
I will never feel anything but outrage every time I see a dog that looked fabulous in my care ... RUINED in someone else's.
I put too much into these dogs to "feel detached" when I see them mismanaged and done wrong.
Especially when the person has "the right way" sitting in front of his face, but just chooses the lazy way.
So maybe I will try to learn some diplomacy, Blueprint ... while you might try studying-up on the correct principles of canine nutrition and reproduction.
BOTTOM LINE: overfeeding your bitches ... and turning your athletes into cows ... isn't "good care" ... it's malpractice.
Jack
:appl::appl:
It was a joke,no need to get all philosophical.maybe bulldogs didnt evolve from wolves but were brought here from a diff.galaxy.Isnt that what Chico use to say about awesome buck or whatever his name was.Quote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
Thanks sonny.. I love and appreciate both bloodlines. I believe it makes for the perfect product. But that's my opinion based on winning. Really are splitting hairs here. As I've said before.Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamaw
LmfaoQuote:
Originally Posted by swampdawg
I know I'm a little late to this particular thread, but I had a giggle at this. No disrespect to the kennels listedQuote:
Originally Posted by Nextlevel
BUT, I have to agree with Jack.
Dogs from WCC MAULED the competition during the 90s with probably more Ch., Gr.Ch., ROMs, and winners than ANY kennel producing dogs at that time. What you won't find are any Redboy/Jocko dogs there. STP anyone? Bellon Club? I'm sure I could sit here and actually think of a TON more people that used zero of those dogs in their breeding program. I happen to like RBJ dogs, and I cut my teeth on those dogs in the 90s off and down from Voyles' Little John, whose parents came straight from Fletcher.