Redboy / jocko has made more dead game dogs !

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Originally Posted by evolutionkennels

:-bd

That's as honest as it gets.

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Thank you :D

The only way to arrive at the truth is to try to be honest and accurate.

It is a waste of time to do anything else.

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Originally Posted by evolutionkennels

I feel machobuck could have won 10. Just cause he was a bonafide killer. But a kennel accident took the cartilage out of his joint and we had to put a steel plate in there , and it would swell after two weeks of work.. Even swimming. So.. it wasn't in the cards.

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I understand how you feel about the great Gr Ch Machobuck.

I feel if Ch Stormbringer were in the right hands he could have won 10 also.
I have never seen ANY dog in my life have that kind of body strength, pit savvy, and finish all in one package. Never.

I also feel that Gr Ch Zukill, who won 6 in a row, never having to go passed :48, even without any cutters, could have easily won 10.
I especially believe this if he had a full set of hangers.

But our "believing" or "feeling" these dogs "could have" won 10 isn't them actually doing it (even if our beliefs are knowledgeable and well-founded).
We can only go by facts, and what dogs actually do win. The facts are Stormy won 4 and Zukill won 6.

Your Gr Ch Machobuck won 5, and also earned a title few dogs ever see: DOY. In fact, Machobuck won nearly every title a dog can have.
There will always be asterisks (*) by certain dogs. There will always be intangibles we can never account for.

Maybe Chavis' Ch Zinc (6xW, 1xL) "would have" won 10 ... if he hadn't have run into Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS).
But the FACT is Ch Zinc did run into Gr Ch Sampson ... and the FACT is he lost ...

The truth is, if any of the dogs we THINK "could have" won 10 had faced other Champions or Grand Champions, as these two did, there could be a lot of surprises. Either way.

I was absolutely sure that Ch Tulipa 4xW, 4xBIS was going to be a Grand Champion. She was a freak of nature and widely considered the best bitch in Brazil's history.
Tulipa beat a Cardenas/Morfin bitch (a 2xW sister to a 6xW and a 4xW), spotting her 3 lb of weight in a HUGE international convention. She won BIS and GIS in 1:30.
Ch Tulipa won either BIS, or GIS (or both), in EVERY match she had, ALL of which were huge, international 10-14 card shows.
But the actual FACTS are, Ch Tulipa LOST her Gr Ch bid. I believe you experienced the same thing with one of your own great, 4xW bitches ... a killer also.
Killers lose too. In fact, The Old Man I know owned Ch Zinc for his last into Ricky. He said Zinc would kill you in the kidneys in 1-2 bites. Yet he lost too.

That is what separates fact from fantasy ... but nothing will take away from THE FACT these were all great dogs, including Ch Zinc.
Killing 6 in a row, and losing game to a 5xBIS Grand Champion, in one of the most successful competitor's hands, is still one helluvan effort from one helluva dog.

Jack

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

That is what separates fact from fantasy ... but nothing will take away from THE FACT these were all great dogs, including Ch Zinc.
Killing 6 in a row, and losing game to a 5xBIS Grand Champion, in one of the most successful competitor's hands, is still one helluvan effort from one helluva dog.

Jack

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I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most! :)

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

However, in hindsight, and with the benefit of a database like this, to really see what's going on out there, maybe I should have made more breedings like that :idea:
I was always afraid of losing my gameness percentages, but maybe I should have focused more on upgrading in some areas (mouth/destruction).

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I like what you said here. :) I must admit I'm a greenhorn but I learned a bunch from this particular thread about bloodlines. ;)

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Originally Posted by Pit Bull Committed

I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most! :)

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Yep.

Most knowledgeable people realize even the greatest of dogs can lose when they step up in class and face other truly great dogs :idea:

For example, and once again, just recently the great Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW) was also a 6xW, a BIS, and DOY winner ... and yet he lost when he faced another great dog in Gr Ch Titere (7xW) ... who is now a DOY also. (Lotta Eli/Carver in that dog ;) )

Furthermore, even if a person takes his great dog, and spot-picks and goes into "no name" dogs, he can still lose and get his ass handed to him, if it's a genuinely good and well-bred dog.

As yet another example in this RB/J-Eli/Carver debate, the great Eli/Carver (Rascal/Honeybunch) dog Hardcore's Ch Doogie was a 4xW and a DOY.
Doogie had defeated Keystone's CH Stryker and he had whipped Gr Ch Yellow's brother, the pure RBJ Tant's Ch Rocko (4xW), stopping Rocko from achieving his own Grand Championship.
(Same pattern, folks ...)

Yet when Hardcore took his great, 2-Champion-killer, and faced the NOBODY Ram ... who had his own little Eli/Carver dog Flash ... the great, titled Ch Doogie DOY ... LOST.
Granted, it was a 2:50 loss ... and, granted again, nobody knew Flash would grow up to be Champion Flash ... brother to Gr Ch Bossman (12xW) ... but he was another Eli/Carver dog ;)

But that *is* the way things can go out there ...

All of these dogs are great dogs being talked about ...

Yet, actually winning 7 (let alone 10!) is a very rare thing indeed ... especially when facing the absolute best to be had in the sport of dogs.

Ken Allen and the A-Team tried to win 10x with at least 4 different Grand Champions.

• The pure RBJ dog Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) failed when he tried into the pure Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (5xW).
• Even the UNK-bred Gr Ch Dooley (8xW) failed in 2:48 when he tried into Carver/Heinzl-bred Gr Ch Melonhead (14xW).
• The pure Carver/Bolio Gr Ch Robert T (9xW), who had the best resume of any dog mentioned here, still lost #10 into the UNK-bred Tito's Ch Ninja.
• ONLY the great Eli/Corvino-bred Gr Ch Tornado finally made it to 10x for Ken Allen & Co ... but she didn't do it facing other Chs & Gr Chs ...

So it's a lot more difficult to actually DO this, historically, than it is to project about it.

Especially when facing the kind of dogs Ken Allen and The A-Team faced back in the heyday of the APBT ...

But, if you pay attention, history does have a tendency to repeat itself ... and the same, basic combinations are the ones which are able to go the highest ...
While other very good combinations do build a consistent, very respectable record ... but almost invariably get weeded-out after 5-6x ... and never seem to rise up to the very highest altitudes :idea:

Jack

awesome topic Jack, but Ram's Ch Flash was only a 3x winner http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=422665 , seen two of his shows. He was off Ch Rattler and the full brother to Ch Big Bossman this ped is wrong. I also agree with you 100%

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Originally Posted by Dogmaster

awesome topic Jack, but Ram's Ch Flash was only a 3x winner http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...?dog_id=422665 , seen two of his shows. He was off Ch Rattler and the full brother to Ch Big Bossman this ped is wrong. I also agree with you 100%

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Thank you for the clarification.

I don't know the particulars on Ch Flash, but I thought he made it to 5 and then was stolen.

I am not sure, so if you are closer to the dog and know he was only a 3xW, then I will correct the information.

I am almost 100% sure Ram was shot and killed while he was walking Flash, and that the dog was stolen from him (tragic), so thanks for taking the time to correct any misinformation.

Great dog and (I hope) points made, regardless.

Cheers,

Jack

Yes I'm from that neck of the woods. My cuz was the ref. on #2 against D-Mob's dog. He was killed in a drive by his own brother's in front of True Colour's House with an dog in his arm's (not Flash). Sometime later his brother's were caught and the police went to his mother's house and seen all the dogs and called HSUS that's when they got Flash. See Ram was on the cover of the Journal with Flash so they new what Flash looked like. Everybody and their mama went down to HSUS to try and get Flash, but they would not let anyone get him and you know what happen to Ch. Flash (R.I.P. to Pat Ram and True Colours Tony Rodgers) Oh yeah all points were made like I said. I like RBJ dogs, but I got to have Carver/Eli dogs LOL.

Dogmaster what type of style did ch flash have and did he get a chance to produce anything?

He went into very good camps he did everything better then each dog he went into and he had a good hard mouth. Ch Doogie was his hardest show he almost didn't make it out of that one. A friend of mine has some of the blood down from his daugther http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=38629

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Originally Posted by waccamaw

Jack every body knows you ,except the green horns and they will soon know you (LOL)

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Jack I I would love to know what Cyj has to say about the RBJ .i think everybody else would too.and jack the only reason you are talking up Eli carver dogs now is because you now claim poncho is down from that ,due to P.P. Paper hanging .and from the audio it sounds like he did hang a paper .i think I would also like to hear about your interview with Fox 16 news after pat patric got busted .