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Considering dogs suffer from hypovolemic shock, the primary focus should be fluids more than anything else. The only benefit I've read that GCs contribute is increased cardiac output and decreased peripheral resistance. Pushing GCs create a euphoric effect in humans when pushed, and I'd bet it does the same for dogs. That may be one of the reasons dogs tend to look better? Who knows really.
It's funny, I was going to bring up a similar topic. There are different types of shock, so different (or, as you say, in some cases NO) cortico-steroids should be considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
For septic shock, such as with pyometra, or abscess, etc. (which involves bacterial growth and therefore the need for immunity) it is widely held NOT to use any cortico-steroids, because they suppress the immune system as a side-effect.
Therefore, as you point out, some of this is all "spit-balling" so-to-say. I do believe, however, that for generalized trauma cortico-steroids are indicated. They create a sense of euphoria, first of all, and reduce swelling, secondly.
However, we as dogmen need to really analyze what has happened to our dogs, in order to properly-assess which cortico-steroids need to be used. There is both traumatic shock as well as hypo-volemic shock (as well as some degree of both) in a dogfight. There is simple, and absolute fatigue/heat stroke, etc.
So what do we use? Dex, Azium, etc.?
I am no expert, but my own belief is, if your dog was severely traumatized by a hard biter (with associated muscle swelling, etc.), then you should lean toward Solu-Medrol or Azium. If your dog is straight fatigued, or straight loss of blood from a bleeder (hypo-volemic), then Solu-Delta.
Maybe Frosty could comment/correct, but these are all considerations that we should be thinking of in our drug selection at the time ...
Jack
I would say, sure, of ALL the things that are the most vital, fluids would be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
But I do think that the proper selection of cortico-steroids (if needed) is a vital and worthy topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
frosty thats a good point , I seldom use them unless absolutely necessary
especially with deep punctures and mouth wounds I also saw very slow healing
best to use this stuff at deaths door
vet also gave me a long lecture of the some side effects on solu delta cortef and better use of solu medrol or even dex
Do you mean lbs? I said a dog can lose about one kilo over a day. Depending on strength of the drug and size of the dog. I have seen people weighing in a pound under from giving half a cc in the morning.Quote:
I would like to add also that I've given 1mL of dex many times, and I've never seen a dog lose 2.2 kilos from 1mL.
Think you can't highlight those text enough. It could be a fatal mistake to inject these dosages any other way than intravenous and then find out you can't hit a vein thus cannot give enough fluids. I think you made a typo on the minimum Dexamethasone dosage.Quote:
PS: I have highlighted more areas in color that people seem to miss.
Please read it over, and give any corrections, and I will tweak it again if need be. Thanks.
Seems I was wrong about the high end dosages. But it's a good thread anyway and I think the article only got better.
I have 3 questions regarding the subject.
1.When you use the high end dose of Dexamethasone; I suppose the dosage listed in the IV fluid therapy article will be increased?Quote:
The second major side-effect of these drugs is that they are diuretics. This means they draw fluid out of your dog. For these two reasons we recommend that any time you use any of the above-mentioned drugs you use them concurrently with fluid therapy
2. Lot of times organs shut down and can take a while for the kidney's to start back working. If you're going to lose allot of fluids due high end dosages of Dexamethasone can't this be a big problem?
3. What do you guys think of Voluven in case of hypovolemic shock. http://www.nps.org.au/__data/cmi_pdfs/CMI9946.pdf
Great info, thanks for taking the time to share everyone.
The fear of losing water is a legitimate one (especially water + electrolytes, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Even drinking a cup of coffee can cause you to piss several EXTRA times/day and get dehydrated, so shooting cortico-steroids (a pharmaceutical diuretic) should be taken seriously.
Pissing out an extra cup of water, a couple times/day, is very easy to envision ... and it adds-up quick.
1 cup = 8 oz = 240 ml = .25 k
2 cups = 16 oz = 480 ml = 1 lb of fluids
4 cups = 32 oz = 960 ml ~ 1 IV bag of fluids
This is absolutely why you need to be running fluids concurrently with any type of cortico-steroid therapy.
A bag of fluids = 1000 ml ~ 4 cups of fluid.
A dog might piss-out an extra few cups/day, so you must monitor what is happening with your animal, and it's all based on his size. Remember, all of this (the amount a dog pisses, the amount of drugs/fluids you give) is based on WEIGHT. If you monitor, and give the proper doses, it should be a seamless process, so there is no way ANY dog is going to "piss-out" more fluids than he's taking in, IF he's getting the proper amount of IV fluids throughout the day ...
Your concerns are also why you take the dog OFF these drugs, ASAP, as soon as they eat/piss on their own :idea:
I think the highlighting helps, definitely. As a key, as you read the article, realize thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Red = Warning
Green = Benefit
Still, a person needs to take the time to read the whole thing, digest, assimilate, and be willing to re-read the article. They say it takes 5 readings just to be able to remember 65% of anything we read ... so this material is serious enough to read, and re-read ...
You were right about the typo, thanks for pointing it out.
They do seem like crazy doses, but again we're trying to jump start the body, and save a life, so drastic doses are needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
These drugs have short half-lifes, and are out of the body fairly quick, so it's an intense regimen to make a dog "snap out of it" (or, perhaps, back into it), to get him feeling good again, so that he goes back to normal. Once he's back to normal, there is no reason to continue these drugs.
And, I agree, if the end result is we ALL learn a little bit more, and refine our understanding, than that is the bottom line.
No. That is what the original, bolus, dose is for in the IV Article ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Keep in mind that, even when the dog is losing extra fluids, it isn't all at once ... but over several hours ... and fluids are going into him just as fast, or faster.
Further, this action of fluids-in/fluids-out actually helps flush the dog of all the "broken pieces of himself" that occurred in the fight, so it's a good thing, quite frankly.
The #1 cause of kidney failure is dehydration. However, if you're running the proper amount of fluids into the dog, he is NOT dehydrated any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Further, associate factors of kidney failure are "clogging" of the kidneys with body waste, which is exacerbated by dehydration.
When your dog is done with a fight, he is flushing out the "broken pieces of himself" through his kidneys. Many times, the kidneys "shut down" and the dog will die, precisely because he's not passing this garbage or flushing anything.
The act of giving fluids, and the act of encouraging urination, actually accelerate the cleansing process to get that $#!^ out of the dog, and thus his body back to a clean, normal state.
This is also why you cease cortico-steroid use as soon as the dog is "up and eating" again, as well as pissing and shitting, because he is now capable of doing these things without drugs.
I have never used it, and for some reason the link isn't working for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Jack
You're welcome :hatsoff:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macker
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA JackThe fear of losing water is a legitimate one (especially water + electrolytes, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Even drinking a cup of coffee can cause you to piss several EXTRA times/day and get dehydrated, so shooting cortico-steroids (a pharmaceutical diuretic) should be taken seriously.
Pissing out an extra cup of water, a couple times/day, is very easy to envision ... and it adds-up quick.
1 cup = 8 oz = 240 ml = .25 k
2 cups = 16 oz = 480 ml = 1 lb of fluids
4 cups = 32 oz = 960 ml ~ 1 IV bag of fluids
This is absolutely why you need to be running fluids concurrently with any type of cortico-steroid therapy.
A bag of fluids = 1000 ml ~ 4 cups of fluid.
A dog might piss-out an extra few cups/day, so you must monitor what is happening with your animal, and it's all based on his size. Remember, all of this (the amount a dog pisses, the amount of drugs/fluids you give) is based on WEIGHT. If you monitor, and give the proper doses, it should be a seamless process, so there is no way ANY dog is going to "piss-out" more fluids than he's taking in, IF he's getting the proper amount of IV fluids throughout the day ...
Your concerns are also why you take the dog OFF these drugs, ASAP, as soon as they eat/piss on their own :idea:
I think the highlighting helps, definitely. As a key, as you read the article, realize thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Red = Warning
Green = Benefit
Still, a person needs to take the time to read the whole thing, digest, assimilate, and be willing to re-read the article. They say it takes 5 readings just to be able to remember 65% of anything we read ... so this material is serious enough to read, and re-read ...
You were right about the typo, thanks for pointing it out.
They do seem like crazy doses, but again we're trying to jump start the body, and save a life, so drastic doses are needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
These drugs have short half-lifes, and are out of the body fairly quick, so it's an intense regimen to make a dog "snap out of it" (or, perhaps, back into it), to get him feeling good again, so that he goes back to normal. Once he's back to normal, there is no reason to continue these drugs.
And, I agree, if the end result is we ALL learn a little bit more, and refine our understanding, than that is the bottom line.
No. That is what the original, bolus, dose is for in the IV Article ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Keep in mind that, even when the dog is losing extra fluids, it isn't all at once ... but over several hours ... and fluids are going into him just as fast, or faster.
Further, this action of fluids-in/fluids-out actually helps flush the dog of all the "broken pieces of himself" that occurred in the fight, so it's a good thing, quite frankly.
The #1 cause of kidney failure is dehydration. However, if you're running the proper amount of fluids into the dog, he is NOT dehydrated any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Further, associate factors of kidney failure are "clogging" of the kidneys with body waste, which is exacerbated by dehydration.
When your dog is done with a fight, he is flushing out the "broken pieces of himself" through his kidneys. Many times, the kidneys "shut down" and the dog will die, precisely because he's not passing this garbage or flushing anything.
The act of giving fluids, and the act of encouraging urination, actually accelerate the cleansing process to get that $#!^ out of the dog, and thus his body back to a clean, normal state.
This is also why you cease cortico-steroid use as soon as the dog is "up and eating" again, as well as pissing and shitting, because he is now capable of doing these things without drugs.
I have never used it, and for some reason the link isn't working for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Jack
Well said, I agree with everything Jack said, which begs the question. Why on earth dry a dog out completely depriving him of fluids and giving the kidneys a death sentence. Would you drain your radiatorbbefore a race?
Even though they have short half life dosage. My concern was fluid would withdrawal at a much higher rate as the dosage for anti swelling purposes. Thanks for giving a better understanding.
Hope this link works: Volvulen It opens in PDF so it probably doens't work on phone.
Because stupidity. But it was just to indicate the amount of fluid loss in short time.Quote:
Why on earth dry a dog out completely depriving him of fluids and giving the kidneys a death sentence. Would you drain your radiatorbbefore a race?