Human aggressive pitbull advice

Hello Mr. Koerner,

I bought your book during Christmas time, a few months after I got my dog from a well known game bred apbt kennel. The reason I am writing is because I seem to have gotten a human aggressive pitbull. I bought him when he was 5 months sight unseen over the internet and he was the last of the litter ( whether or not the breeder new is something that is irrelevant at this point). He has attacked my family on various occassions, with a determination I have never seen before. The dog however, is wonderful and I believe he is game however he has that HA flaw. I attribute it to his insecurity around strange people and new situations. My question to you and I probably have many is how to proceed with this matter. I care deeply for the animal and have provided much socialization with the dog and my family and we have made great progress, but I know that I can never leave him alone with them ever again, since my family doesn't have the same amount of dog psychology awareness necessary to approach a dog so insecure as him. I contacted the breeder to get a replacement dog with the option of me keeping the dog (since I have grown attached to him and I will never give up on him) and he has asked for a video of the dog . That is where I stand now. Before I go any further with this matter I decided to ask for your expert advice and I would rather remain anonymous so as to not hurt the breeders and dogs reputation. I hope you understand. My question to you is should I breed this dog in the future from the same line and ask the breeder instead for a discount on a future more stable pup given the fact that I wasn't expecting such a liability? I was thinking of preserving this line and discovering what I have, as you mentioned people should do in your book. However, there is a good chance that the offspring will be HA as well, right? What route do you suggest I take? I can't help but think I was scammed, but I also read in your book that even from the best litters sometimes things go wrong and a recessive gene pops up. I've read that some dogman where tolerant of HA. Should I feel grateful of what I got, after all the dog is bred beautifully on paper? Perhaps I will have to wait and see what he produces and then I will no for sure? And even if his pups come out O.K there is still a chance that if I breed sister/ brother or another combination the HA gene might pop up again, right?


Thank you

Although the question is for jack, I have some experience with HA dogs. In my opinion, I think you should cut your loss and get rid of the dog. My reasoning is because your family is worth much more than any game dog, one mistake and your family can be forever altered. In my opinion, dogs that will come into your space in a aggressive mannor, even with those he lives with and raised him is unstable.... Not worth the risk. JMO

I use to say that if you owned a pitbull that was like that needed to be shot but that was when i was stupid and still wet behind the ears. I breed an produced a dog that was so game and bread so tight that he wanted to hit anything from a cow to a person even down to a butterfly if it got in his circle. He loved me to death would eat out of my hand lay on the couch and curl up next to me. Now i am not saying i didn't talk to him before walking up on him in the dark. In all reality it was my fault i breed him to tight i also breed his mouth out as well. But once again it was my fault. I had to take serious precautions when i decided to keep him. I knew he be best in my hands cause the last thing i wanted to do was release another people mean pit into public and give them any fuel to the fire. So you hafe to put alot of carefully planning if you decide to keep him. I have breed him since then and have not had that problem yet not saying it won't happen again i just now know how to not BREED TO TIGHT. JMO

I, too, would love to see a video of exactly how he "attacks", visuals are always helpful :) Also, if you didn't receive the puppy until five months of age, there's no reason to immediately conclude that his HA behavior is a genetic flaw. There are any number of things his breeder or former owner could've done to sponsor such a temperament in a young dog, and then switching homes halfway through his puppy hood could've simply cemented his already insecure grasp of his environment. Unless his breeder has produced other HA dogs, and other people interbreeding his family have produced HA dogs with a regularity, I wouldn't worry too much about him producing maneaters just yet.

ETA: You need to work on socializing him with your family and other people while he IS still a puppy. If he's left with the impression that he can bully your wife and children and get you all to himself, then he'll take that and run with it. If he's under a year old, there's really no reason that your wife shouldn't be able to help handle this situation with you, he's still a baby and still very impressionable, so the quicker you start to build new, POSITIVE habits with him, the better. Right now, he's figuring out how he relates to everyone else around him, so the WORST thing you can do is just let him get away with his behavior, which is what you'll be doing if you simply remove your family from the situation. If he growls at someone, they should ignore him, not become flustered or intimidated by him, and CONTINUE to do whatever it was they were doing to him or around him. If he bites at someone, give him a nice solid smack and a firm NO. Any behavior that is playful, affectionate, or remotely positive towards a family member should be rewarded. He needs to know that people are to be ENJOYED, not something to be afraid of or aggressive towards.

1st problem is you are talking about breeding him already at 5 months old.....2nd is his line known to have man eaters......


3rd....When you say he has attacked your family what does this mean....Has he grabed someone and not let go or his he just wild as hell...

I have seen alot of people confuse high prey-drive and a dog that would bite you....Dogs with high prey-drive are not for green horns....

Last but not least if he has really grabed a family member you should have already culled him.....Get you a nice collie or something.

I got one that was raised in the house with my family and kids.. Really calm and good disposition. Only at around six months his mange and yeast infection got really bad and he was just miserable. He would growl at me and my wife when it was time for medication or time to bath. He would growl at the vet tech trying to give him shots. I was ready to literally put this dude down. I got some good advice from my brother who is a vet tech in another city.
He would tell me how grey hounds and labs who were the calmest at home would growl and go haywire at the vets office. Or how injured dogs would snap. These dogs were tired of being poked, proded or were just in pain and I realized my bulldog was the same. These are not human aggressive dogs. My dog is just miserable and trying to make it day to day. Another thing is it would be a different story if he really made a move to bite and grabbed hold.
My wife really insisted we didn't put him down so I agreed to work with him as long as she work with him with me. How old is your pup now? Is he just playing or actually biting limbs and shaking? My bulldog use to grab hold of my childrens pant legs and shake. We put a cease to that. That was when he was eight to ten weeks old. He's nine months now and wouldn't pull that stuff.

Good luck with whatever you decide. But for me, no dog can be both wonderful and try to attack my family with a passion of which you know its trying to kill or inflict great bodily harm.
Like I said good luck but be careful

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Originally Posted by APBT

Hello Mr. Koerner,
I bought your book during Christmas time, a few months after I got my dog from a well known game bred apbt kennel. The reason I am writing is because I seem to have gotten a human aggressive pitbull. I bought him when he was 5 months sight unseen over the internet and he was the last of the litter ( whether or not the breeder new is something that is irrelevant at this point). He has attacked my family on various occassions, with a determination I have never seen before.

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First of all, thank you for your order and welcome to the forum. I think you started things off with a great topic, that is going to be controversial, and yet very important.

To start off with, are you saying this pup has launched a full-blown attack on your family? If this is the case, I personally would kill the dog. If he is just playing rough, then he is just playing rough, and sometimes inexperienced people cannot tell the difference. However, if there truly is hate in his heart toward the people who feed him, then I would put the dog down or ask for a replacement.

Human-aggressiveness can be tolerable (even useful) with strangers, but absolute human-aggression (even towards people he knows) is an intolerable flaw, especially in a family setting! I mean, if you were on 20 acres, and had 60 dogs, and were a competitive dogman and this dog was just one of many on a chain, then maybe see if he's a good one. But if you are in a suburban neighborhood, and are keeping a truly human-aggressive animal in your family's home, then I would consider this to be criminally-irresponsible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by APBT

Hello Mr. Koerner,
The dog however, is wonderful and I believe he is game however he has that HA flaw. I attribute it to his insecurity around strange people and new situations. My question to you and I probably have many is how to proceed with this matter. I care deeply for the animal and have provided much socialization with the dog and my family and we have made great progress, but I know that I can never leave him alone with them ever again, since my family doesn't have the same amount of dog psychology awareness necessary to approach a dog so insecure as him.

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It doesn't sound like there is anything "wonderful" about the dog; he sounds like a tragedy waiting to happen. You simply don't have enough perspective to see the full picture. You are confusing your "attachment" to him, because he's "yours," with the dog actually having wonderful qualities. Truly wonderful dogs are not so stupid, or reckless/indiscriminate, that they attack their owners. It is as simple as that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by APBT

Hello Mr. Koerner,
I contacted the breeder to get a replacement dog with the option of me keeping the dog (since I have grown attached to him and I will never give up on him) and he has asked for a video of the dog . That is where I stand now. Before I go any further with this matter I decided to ask for your expert advice and I would rather remain anonymous so as to not hurt the breeders and dogs reputation. I hope you understand. My question to you is should I breed this dog in the future from the same line and ask the breeder instead for a discount on a future more stable pup given the fact that I wasn't expecting such a liability?

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I think you are handling this matter with class, and I understand a beginner's attachment to "his first dog," but my expert advice is that you need to get rid of that dog for the sake of your family (not to mention for the sake of avoiding an inevitable tragedy with a neighbor too). The last thing I would be thinking about was breeding this dog. You only should breed "what you want more of," and the last thing you should be wanting more of is an unstable, problem dog.

There are too many sweet, wonderful, temperamentally-fantastic dog to put up with a nasty, dangerous dog--again, especially in a family situation. Again, if you were a dogman on 20 acres with 60 dogs, and this was just one of many on a chain, then maybe see if he is worth a bet as a match dog. But AS A FAMILY PET this dog is the last thing I would be having around my family.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by APBT

Hello Mr. Koerner,
I was thinking of preserving this line and discovering what I have, as you mentioned people should do in your book. However, there is a good chance that the offspring will be HA as well, right? What route do you suggest I take? I can't help but think I was scammed, but I also read in your book that even from the best litters sometimes things go wrong and a recessive gene pops up. I've read that some dogman where tolerant of HA. Should I feel grateful of what I got, after all the dog is bred beautifully on paper? Perhaps I will have to wait and see what he produces and then I will no for sure? And even if his pups come out O.K there is still a chance that if I breed sister/ brother or another combination the HA gene might pop up again, right?
Thank you

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Again, what in the world are you trying to "preserve" here? Human-aggressiveness?

My honest perspective (based on raising HUNDREDS of pups) is that your pup is not suitable for a family, and (at best) should be in a professional dogman's hands, and (at worst) should be culled altogether, but he certainly is not a wise choice for a house dog in a family situation. The very fact that you fear for your family's safety should be a clue of what you need to do.

Get rid of this dog. Spare yourself (and, more importantly, your family) of a future tragedy. Get a new pup ... a truly suitable, happy pit bull (which is what they're supposed to be), and you will quickly forget all about this one here.

Good luck, and sorry if it isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

Jack

PS: I think putting it on video is a good idea, just in case you are confusing "rough play" for an actual attack.

IMHO, culling an animal that's still in it's adolescent stages due to a temperament flaw is wholly irresponsible. If you can't handle the situation, I completely agree that you should hand the dog over to someone who's more capable of giving him the structure he obviously needs, but I don't believe in TRULY human aggressive puppies in this breed, and therefore, don't believe in culling for it.