Honesty and Integrity

I saw a post on this forum by a young man selling some dogs. This has nothing to do with him or his litter as we are all confident, they are good dogs and more than worthy of their feed and keep. During the discussion, the character or honesty of one of the dogs in the pedigree came into question. Black Hand made a comment that got me thinking of a discussion topic.

Although dogs don't lie and people do, where do we draw the line on breeders and dogmen who lie? We probably all own a dog with one or two dogs in 7 generations that are fabrications by pedigree. I own a lot of stock down from Maurice Carver. He was known to lie quite a bit about his "recipe" and "cake".

We seem to draw hard lines on folks who lie when it concerns our dogs. However, the past is the past and no one really throws a fit too much about it. Tom Garner comes to mind as someone whose honesty is always questioned about how dogs may or may not be bred, or he does in circles I talk within.

Where is the line? What do we or can we do about it? And how much does it matter or not?

Me personally, if a fellow will lie to me about anything, then I have to believe he'd lie to me about everything. For me, I don't want anything to do with them on any level. Personally, business, dogs, etc. But I'm sure not judging here either. I truly believe half of what I see and none of what I hear.

dont be surprised when someone lies or is full of b.s be surprised when someone is straight up as good guys are a dying breed.ill take my dogs over these human curs any day. i know for a fact their are some good dogmen left so reputation is a key in certain dealings

if 10 people own dogs down from a lie, its not okay. if 1,000 people own stuff down from a lie, it's okay. that's how it works.

I dont hold much weight in a pedigree anymore really. Yes its nice...it's pretty. And, it would be cool to know the real history of your dog. But 99% chance that history was falsly fabricated years before my dogs existence. A good one is a good one. A pedigree is a half assed blue print in most cases. I said in another post that this use to be a gentleman's dog/game. All it takes is one bad apple to tarnish the whole damn thing if he breeds enough and has dogs become a part of our pedigrees such as Carvers dogs. Not to say he wasn't a great dogman. He's a legend. But I wish paper hanging didn't happen period. But then again...can you blame anyone for not giving away the winning lottery ticket so to speak? I'm a honest man, so that's not my style. But I tried seeing the other point of view. OK for example... I own a TG pup Chinaman/Spike (Little Gator) blood. But Fat Bill swears Gr Ch Snakmans Pedro is the Sire of little Gator. Not Garners Gr Ch Spike. Does it matter if the pup I own is a good one? Not really. Does it bother me because I want to know his true history? Yes. But...I will never know. Guess it depends on who I believe. Fat Bill or TG.

I don't believe that secret recipe hype. more like they hang papers to sell dogs.

Realistically, there is nothing anyone can do about people lying. People lie. If you think a breeder is a liar, you don't deal with him. That's how we, as individuals, deal with someone we don't like or don't believe.

That being said, if a particular breeder is known to be a liar, but that breeder consistently produces quality dogs, then people are going to overlook the flaw in the person's integrity. In this game, a majority of people want quality dogs. They don't care so much about the lies. If Carver was alive today, can you imagine the dogs he would be selling if he were able to continue breeding the same quality of dog? People would question it, but they'd still spend their money with him. The dog game is full of people like that, and it has been for decades.

[QUOTE= Yes. But...I will never know. Guess it depends on who I believe. Fat Bill or TG.[/QUOTE]

The same FB that made reports up for zabo and got found out ! I would NOT believe anything he told me.

You would or wouldn't believe Fat Bill?

For me there's nothing worse than finding out you've been lied to on how a dog is bred, it's happened to me in the past and I ended up culling the dog out of sheer frustration.

I'm in agreement with NQK, in that, if someone has lied to me then I wouldn't have anything to do with that person again. One thing I just can't tolerate in life is a liar.

I hear ya... So...let me ask this. What benefit would TG have saying Gr Ch Spike sired Little Gator vs Gr Ch Snakemans Pedro? Pedro was on his yard at the same time. He owned them both at that time. So what is the benefit? The both are Gr Ch. Hell....Pedro has double the wins. He's X9 plus two uncontracted. Seems to me they are both hella bulldogs ya know. Both where sought after highly. That's why I dont see any logic in lieing about that.

I think that both types of liars exist. No doubt. Some may do it, or did it, to hide a recipe. Others do it to simply sell pups.

The thing that always gets me is people who say, "if the dog is a good one, then does it really matter?" My answer to that, is if it doesn't matter, then why not just tell the truth?

I won't feed dogs from certain people's lines simply b/c I know those people have lied or sometimes simply b/c they are unprofessional. There are a lot of good lines of dogs out there and if I want to feed a particular line and the expert of that line is easy to work with, then I'm in. Why feed good dogs from a line who has an asshole behind it. Doesn't make sense. Personally, disagree if you will, but I don't believe any line of dogs has the market cornered on good dogs.

We all have a pedigree with a lie in it somewhere. I can promise you though, my word of honor, there will never be one lied about from that line as long as I'm feeding or breeding them. I'll own the bad along with the good and live with it. I have to live with me and that is still important to me.

Good angles and posts

Kimo, just for the record, Pedro didn't win 9, and there has always been some disagreement in the dog game about Snakeman and whether he actually won 5 legit shows or not.

Honesty & Integrity................in Dogmen???? .......lol.......hows a way of putting this without comming off as a prick......

i think the the biggest downfall of this game/breed is that its filled with the biggest lowlifes you can fimd!! now, dont get me wrong....ive come across some like minded folks that i can say are stand up people....but, thats the rare exception.

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Originally Posted by CRISIS

Honesty & Integrity................in Dogmen???? .......lol.......hows a way of putting this without comming off as a prick......

i think the the biggest downfall of this game/breed is that its filled with the biggest lowlifes you can fimd!! now, dont get me wrong....ive come across some like minded folks that i can say are stand up people....but, thats the rare exception.

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I think you hit the nail on the head right there. lol.

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Originally Posted by CRISIS

Honesty & Integrity................in Dogmen???? .......lol.......hows a way of putting this without comming off as a prick......

i think the the biggest downfall of this game/breed is that its filled with the biggest lowlifes you can fimd!! now, dont get me wrong....ive come across some like minded folks that i can say are stand up people....but, thats the rare exception.

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That is an unfortunate truth. :(

SHOWBOX

so stay in a close circle

All I know is what I've read on Pedro. That being said it says 9x with two uncontrscted. I've never heard that speculation about Pedro. Can you tell me what you know? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by CRISIS

Honesty & Integrity................in Dogmen???? .......lol.......hows a way of putting this without comming off as a prick......

i think the the biggest downfall of this game/breed is that its filled with the biggest lowlifes you can fimd!! now, dont get me wrong....ive come across some like minded folks that i can say are stand up people....but, thats the rare exception.

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You are exactly right Crisis. The biggest problem in bulldogs is owners. No question about it. Sad considering the honesty and initigrity and the character of the breed. Too many attracted to the qualities they themselves lack.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

I won't feed dogs from certain people's lines simply b/c I know those people have lied or sometimes simply b/c they are unprofessional. There are a lot of good lines of dogs out there and if I want to feed a particular line and the expert of that line is easy to work with, then I'm in. Why feed good dogs from a line who has an asshole behind it. Doesn't make sense. Personally, disagree if you will, but I don't believe any line of dogs has the market cornered on good dogs.

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Man as you may know I am a person who likes the ofrn dogs but will not own a certain family just because I feel like the breeder is, has and keeps lying about how the dogs are bred. There is another dog man in NC who I will not deal with for 2 reasons. One is that he has lied about peds and 2 I have had several people tell me that the only thing he was missing was a sheet and a burning cross.

Snakeman was a known liar when he was in dogs, and a lot of the men back then don't believe Pedro won a legitimate 5 shows. There is no doubt that he's not a 9x winner. That never even showed up until the advent of pedigrees online and someone's overactive imagination.

That's interesting Frosty. Never heard that about Pedro. I've had a old school dogmen tell me Pedro's pups where highly sought after at the time he was on Garners yard. Seems I did read that about Snakeman though. Crazy how Spike sired all those black dogs from that breeding that produced Little Gator though. Wish I could find a pic of Gators brother Buddy boy.

Pedro produced some good dogs, both for Snakeman and Garner. I will never say otherwise, but the rest of it? It's all up in the air and has been for a long time. Just water under the bridge at this point.

If you expect decency and honesty from dogmen you will get burned. Think about it. This here is a sport, we are all competitors. In every other sport on the planet people cheat and lie to get ahead (we all remember maradonas "hand of god" for example). If you implement the fact that our sport is illegal, who attracts all kinds of assholes. Why on earth would you expect honesty? Either you learn to handle the cheats and the lies or you need to find another hobby. If you decide not to deal with people that aren't honest there will be a very few left. I know from experience. On the bright side there still are a few decent dogmen out there. Find em and treat em right!

I agree on the part about cheating and sports...what sport doesn't have a cheater. Especially with the type of people these dogs attract. Its only going to get worse from here fellas....Sadly. That's why I'm going to develope and run the line I got to the day I die. Minus a few crosses when needed. Worst case scenario Atleast I know I'll always have decent hound to feed. May not produce Gr Ch every other day. But a good bulldawg that I know to the core.

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Originally Posted by Kimo615

I agree on the part about cheating and sports...what sport doesn't have a cheater. Especially with the type of people these dogs attract. Its only going to get worse from here fellas....Sadly. That's why I'm going to develope and run the line I got to the day I die. Minus a few crosses when needed. Worst case scenario Atleast I know I'll always have decent hound to feed. May not produce Gr Ch every other day. But a good bulldawg that I know to the core.

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Good spirit! What line you running? And how are they performing for you?

Thanks Gameness...I'm running Chinaman/Little Gator. So far so good. Breed standard dogs. Great confirmation...great temperament ..game and tremendous drive. Lots of wind and mouth on them little dogs. Co own a dog that's Chinaman/Spike. Did have a pair of Eli/Carver/Reddevil dogs. Eli/Carver down from Gr Ch Art. But...unfortunately those two got old on me and passed two days apart. Those where some very game and super smart dogs. Im trying to locate pups from them two so I can get that blood back.

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Originally Posted by No Quarter Kennel

I saw a post on this forum by a young man selling some dogs. This has nothing to do with him or his litter as we are all confident, they are good dogs and more than worthy of their feed and keep. During the discussion, the character or honesty of one of the dogs in the pedigree came into question. Black Hand made a comment that got me thinking of a discussion topic.
Although dogs don't lie and people do, where do we draw the line on breeders and dogmen who lie? We probably all own a dog with one or two dogs in 7 generations that are fabrications by pedigree. I own a lot of stock down from Maurice Carver. He was known to lie quite a bit about his "recipe" and "cake".
We seem to draw hard lines on folks who lie when it concerns our dogs. However, the past is the past and no one really throws a fit too much about it. Tom Garner comes to mind as someone whose honesty is always questioned about how dogs may or may not be bred, or he does in circles I talk within.
Where is the line? What do we or can we do about it? And how much does it matter or not?
Me personally, if a fellow will lie to me about anything, then I have to believe he'd lie to me about everything. For me, I don't want anything to do with them on any level. Personally, business, dogs, etc. But I'm sure not judging here either. I truly believe half of what I see and none of what I hear.

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As the old saying goes, "Consider the source."

I think what Frosty said about Carver is true: most people who are legitimately active want GOOD DOGS more than they want "honest paperwork," whereas most people who want to buy dogs to breed and sell puppies want "reliable paperwork.'

I absolutely understand that it is best to have both, but I have noticed (for the most part) that heavily-active dogfighters don't like puppies too much, and really don't give a damn how a dog is "bred," sll they care about is can this dog kick ass and bring home the money? It is very rare to find the man who is both a world class breeder and an active dogfighter ... but when you find such a man you can rest assured that he is breeding his own dogs and isn't worried about "paperwork" any longer, because he is intimately familiar with his own dogs.

Back when I was starting out, I bred to Ch Hammer thinking he was off of BBB. It was only much later that I discovered that he was (in all probability) off of Reuben, as this thread describes. Am I a liar for not "telling everyone" what I believe to be true regarding Hammer? No. My thoughts on Hammer constitute belief not knowledge. I will never know the truth about Hammer; but I do have very strong beliefs concerning the dog, and have more experience with Hammer dogs (and true BBB dogs) than just about anyone on the planet: and the difference in traits is marked.

In the end, I can only be 100% truthful about MY OWN pedigrees. And that's it. And I stuck with my own line long enough, and bred into it deep enough, that Ch Hammer didn't matter much anymore, it was MY DOGS who mattered and determined what I got. As I developed as a breeder, I discovered rather quickly that many "world famous breeders" (Patrick, Carver, etc.) are all fuggen liars, which (I also concluded) was ultimately a big waste of their time "hiding their recipe" for nothing. As a successful family breeder myself, I quickly learned that NOBODY LISTENS ANYWAY ... you can give 99% of the people the veritable blueprint for successful breeding, and they will ignore all your good advice and make their own foolish breeding decisions anyway :lol:

Only a rare few people can actually perpetuate a gene pool indefinitely; the vast majority will breed all of the quality and consistency out of their dogs in a generation or two and be forced to "start over again."

Jack

I quickly learned that NOBODY LISTENS ANYWAY ... you can give 99% of the people the veritable blueprint for successful breeding, and they will ignore all your good advice and make their own foolish breeding decisions anyway

Excellent and I couldn't agree more. Every line of work, the truly elite seem to be willing to share and "give away" what they do. In my profession, I go after the elite all the time in search of what they do. Never found one to not freely give away their so-called secrets. Most, NEVER even really listen. I've been fortunate to be successful I guess b/c I'm just dumb enough to do it just like the good ones say they do it. Easier than most want to believe.

The logic is not in the lie itself, it is what the lie makes available. Spike has a litter of five puppies. Pedro sires a litter of five pups. 8 people call with $$$$ for Spike puppies. Two people call looking for Pedro puppies. Do the math. EWO

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Originally Posted by Kimo615

I hear ya... So...let me ask this. What benefit would TG have saying Gr Ch Spike sired Little Gator vs Gr Ch Snakemans Pedro? Pedro was on his yard at the same time. He owned them both at that time. So what is the benefit? The both are Gr Ch. Hell....Pedro has double the wins. He's X9 plus two uncontracted. Seems to me they are both hella bulldogs ya know. Both where sought after highly. That's why I dont see any logic in lieing about that.

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Yea...I can see that. Wasn't thinking of it like that really. I figured they were both great dogs and wouldn't have problems selling pups of either. But makes sense to me.

It is rare to find someone that is honest and has integrity in this game they do anything for a buck they will hang papers and they will take your $ for pup and never send it like Cride bred bulldogs did to me he took my $ & then changed his phone number and never seen the pup his username is apbtmet here on pitbull bible

I trust you are telling the truth........so I'd like to add...........WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT!

I have had my ass handed to me before dealing with these dogs. Lost an incredible dog to a scheme that worked beautifully. I was dumb. I was taken advantage of in a deal I thought everyone involved would be straight up. The bottom line is that anytime there is something to gain a crook will find his way into the mix. It's not just the dogs either, it is everywhere. Car sales, the craigslist, business, everywhere.
I am now ultraconservative with my money. I understand I miss a lot of good deals and miss out on some really nice dogs but I do not pre-pay for anything. I do not send deposits. I have missed out on a lot and i understand that is how it works but this way I can't be ripped off. I will make arrangements and be there when agreed upon and on time with money in hand. That is the best I can offer and I will live with what it provides. EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

I have had my ass handed to me before dealing with these dogs. Lost an incredible dog to a scheme that worked beautifully. I was dumb. I was taken advantage of in a deal I thought everyone involved would be straight up. The bottom line is that anytime there is something to gain a crook will find his way into the mix. It's not just the dogs either, it is everywhere. Car sales, the craigslist, business, everywhere.
I am now ultraconservative with my money. I understand I miss a lot of good deals and miss out on some really nice dogs but I do not pre-pay for anything. I do not send deposits. I have missed out on a lot and i understand that is how it works but this way I can't be ripped off. I will make arrangements and be there when agreed upon and on time with money in hand. That is the best I can offer and I will live with what it provides. EWO

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So true ,that is why we stopped with deposits.