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How do you see these styles or strategies?
I see them as different, but have had some guys argue a dog that eats the face of a hog is a head dog. I don't see it that way at all. The Red Rock dogs are known for fighting the face of a pig and they do have head dogs in their lineage.
Of course, I think I'm right, as we all do at times, but would like to hear thoughts on this one. Especially Jack, since the head dog is his fav!
A head/face dog is a head/face dog whether he eats??? it or not. What's the point of arguing which term to use.
A: wow that was a nasty facedog
B: hold up, that's not a facedog that's a head dog because i saw him eating a piece of his cheek.
A: no
B: yes
A: ok let's drink a beer
B: no really look it up chapter 7 second paragraph...
A: cheers
The face = part of the head ... therefore, a face dog = a head dog.
Face dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Ear dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Cheek/jaw dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Mouth-fighting dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Etc.
To say any of these dogs are NOT "fighting the head" in some spot is simply to be unaware of basic anatomy ...
However, to say you prefer X type of head dog, over another "type" of head dog, is something worthy of discussion ...
But to deny that any of these spots are "on the head" is absurd.
My own view, as a head-dog-producing specialist, is that face dogs are the most destructive kind of head dog ... and typically most people's favorites ... but at the TOP of the heap, I would have to say that every truly ace EAR dog I have ever seen has whipped the best face dogs ... and has done so every time.
Now, keep in mind, there is a difference from a palooka being "on the ear" ... and an ACE ear dog ... that difference is hard to explain to someone who has never seen the difference ... but when you see it you will know what I am talking about.
A good face dog is hard to beat ... and an ace face dog is pure poison ... but an ACE ear dog is practically untouchable ... even by the best face dogs.
It's not "the damage" caused by an ace ear dog, it is the **absolute control** that beats even the best opponents. Yet, the damage done to the inner ear canal of a TRUE ear specialist can be pretty substantial, can hurt like hell after awhile, can totally mess-up the opponent's balance, equilibrium, and confidence ... and can bring out the cur in even the (so-called) "gamest" of dogs. That is, if the head dog grabs ENOUGH of the ear/base of skull in his holds, which truly great ear dogs do. You might want to check out this thread for an idea of what I am talking about, seeing what a TOOTHLESS ace ear dog can do. (Scroll down to posts 5, 6, 7 ... on page 3.)
The toothless, ace ear dog Ch Robert T Jr., for example, stopped four 4xWs from making Grand Champion ... and yet never broke the hide on any of them.
His father, Ch Robert T, had teeth, beat 9 opponents, including 2 Grand Champions and 2 4xWs ... and I can't think of any face dogs that have won that many (or any other kind of dog).
A lot of people don't realize this, but Gr Ch Tornado was an ace on the ear also, killing 3 dogs without getting a hole in her skin. Everyone talks about her wins, or her killing dogs in the brisket, but she slowed many of them down on the head, including Bobby Hall's Sunshine, who was killed with 3 holds: first on one ear ... second with a switch to the other ear ... and then handles made when his bitch turned. Bobby Hall's dog was drunk in the corner from the punishment to both ears, which destroyed his bitch's equilibrium. At release, Tornado buries Sunshine in the corner, and kills her in the brisket at like :17 ... but it was THE EAR HOLDS that kept Sunshine out of Tornado's guts, and softened-up Sunshine for the kill. I think that was the bitch's name, Sunshine.
Jack
Perfect post and explanation and to add like you used Tornado as example there are the dogs who are defensive and offensive. I do agree face is part of the head but like you broke down there are different divisions inside the head dog entity, Nose, Jaw, Eyes, Top of head, Ear. Some styles are a lot of worse than others, but like you said a great ear dog has and will whip most any dogs if they get to the spot. Like my ol buddy use to say, kill the head and the body will fall. Or let him run dry chasing while you riding him out take him to that deep water and drown him. Face dogs are career ending dogs who can ruin one quick. Face or Nose dogs are one of my favorites and boy is it beneficial if your dogs don't have a lot of mouth to begin with, but I seen some Jaw specialists and man that's one rough style because once they wear that jaw muscle out and your hound can't bite no more you in a world of trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Sorry for rambling but again great post and explanation Jack
Agree with Jack's post, pretty much anything from the neck up is a 'head dog'. Then they become specialists after that. I had a bitch once that stopped one or two from the ear and won her match the same way. Like it was already said, not just holding and riding, but doing some damage while holding and riding, really tough to beat. This bitch looked like she put the top hangers in the top of the head at the base of one ear with the bottom hangers in the jaw muscle under the other ear, and then pulled it all together, or at least it looks that way.
Combine a propensity for the ear, decent mouth and being on the high end of pound for pound strength, that particular dog is really hard to get to. The pound for pound stronger ear dog wil dominate and control until the other is spent. A lot of 'good' dogs check up under that. EWO
:rotflmao: :lotsagreen: :rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
LOL....I'm completely aware of the anatomy of the head.
I think the face is more specific in describing the style of the dog just like an "ear" dog, while a head dog, is more specific in describing that dog.
Some dogs fight the front legs and some the back. Technically, yes, they are all leg dogs, but some are stifle back end dogs while others are strictly front end dogs.
Good posts here.
1. No style wins 100% of the time; All styles can lose;Quote:
Originally Posted by 5901
2. Tactically-speaking, he who controls the opponent's head (and therefore weapons) controls how much he gets bit;
3. The more control of the opponent's head, the less the dog gets bit; the lesser control of the opponent's head, the more the dog gets bit (basic logic);
4. It is harder to keep a face hold for a long time than an ear hold; a true ace ear dog has THE control of that head (especially if he stands perpendicular to the opponent);
5. That ONE dog of yours, who lost both his ears, and finally got to the ear dog, is a 100-1 exception;
6. Statistically-speaking, for every dog that can "do that" ... like your 1 dog did ... there are 100 that would QUIT to that first ... so we're talking about THE RULE not the "once in a lifetime" exception.
7. Also, your dog might have also had a thinner-than-usual hide ...
8. Ear dogs can "go elsewhere" like any other dog ... it's the absolute control of the head that they achieve which makes them special.
Jack
Agree 100%. That bitch sounds like "my kinda dog" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyRed
Thank you and nice post yourself.
Earl Tudor said it as well as anyone, "I will take a good ear dog and whip most of these so-called 'fast-track' dogs ..."
Still, like anything else, there will always be exceptions to every rule, but the ODDS will always favor the dog that controls the head,
Moreover, if you reach for any other spot on the dog, you leave your own head open to be nailed first, hence the odds will always favor the head dog.
Doesn't mean some dog won't "beat" the odds ... but what it does mean is that, more often than not, you will bring home the money with a good head dog over any other style dog.
Jack
.
Agree with 'no style is 100%', but controlling the head puts a dog in as favorable position as any, if not more favorable. And just like anything, there are levels or specialties in head dogs. Head dogs can be face dogs, or ear dogs, or between the eyes dogs, any number of places on the head. Some are just riding some are riding and laying some wood as they ride.
Then we can use the phrases 'offensive minded head dog' and 'defensive minded head dog'. Both can control the head, control the match and dictate the pace. Jack mentioned those defensive aces, and those can go to another level. The dog that is offensive and lays wood right up until the other guy re-positions, counters, finds a hold, and then that dog switches to that defensive dog in the blink of an eye. Rides til he can lay some wood and back to the offensive side of the ball all the while being in complete control.
It takes a real freak to overcome this and the freaks do not grow on trees. EWO
I agree with everything you said, except that I did not ever say my favorite dogs were "defensive" ... in point of fact they were offensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Icon, when he was deep on the head/ear, would have the other dog's head smashed into the side board, would shake/root etc., and would toss/flip the other dogs around like a judo player. Stormbringer and Silverback, when they were on the head/ear, would only be doing so to set you up for a shoot to your throat ... be it from low/down under, or after they wrestled you down with their ear hold.
As a face dog, Missy was only on the face long enough to fracture whatever was in her mouth (muzzle, eye socket, etc.), and slow you down. As soon as you stopped "driving forward," and had the steam taken out of you, Missy would shoot in, up high in the armpit, and just shake/root the bejesus out of you. It wasn't a true finish spot with Missy, but she would DEVASTATE the face ... and after she shook out your front leg/armpit, you weren't walking on it again ... that leg would be a limp, wet noodle. 5 bitches her size had to be picked up in under :12 ... and the one who made it to the :20 mark didn't make it to the next morning.
All of these were extremely strong, very physical dogs ... who just knew that to grab you upside your head like that was "to OWN your ass" :lol:
Jack
I didn't say they were your favorite, I said you mentioned the defensive aces. I was simply saying there are different levels to everything, including head dogs.
Ch. Charlie (4XW) was as you mentioned. He went to the side of the jaw. He looked like he started at the ear and the throat and bit it all together at the jaw. He punished a dog while not getting hurt himself. It worked two fold, one if it broke the dog down, or it slowed, it was a smooth and quick transition into the throat, which ended three of the four. And two, if it didn't after 10-15 minutes the dogs jaw muscle was shredded and the other guys tools were no longer available, which in turn led to his fourth win, when the dog could no longer defend himself.
Totally agree with your posts. EWO
Ah, okay, and true.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
That is a hard, hard style to beat ...Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Ditto.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Jack
Ch. Sissy, off Hunter Red/Whitehead, was the type of defensive head dog mentioned in previous posts. She would grab the ear, and stand side by side with her opponent, and it was basically over once she found that particular spot. She beat 2 champions out of 3 wins and died in keep for her 4th show.
Bobby Holland told me about Ch Sissy ... but I thought she beat 3 Champions (including DSK's Ch Banji)?Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
TGIF ...
She beat Ch.Yard Dog and Ch.Banji. The first bitch she beat wasn't a champion I don't believe.
http://www.pitbull-history.com/galle...ider_fight.jpg
Whoa-oh, whoa-oh, stuck like glue
You and me baby, we're stuck like glue! :lol:
"I had killing dogs that were game. And at anytime, they could hold them out for a while maybe, but eventually I’m gonna get you. And my dogs wont’ run out of air. Most of my fights that I’ve been in you won’t see my dog's tongue ever out of his mouth. I went against devastating dogs that could bite your dogs’ leg right off. I had my dogs go so deep into their ear and bite and hit that nerve in there. You know the toughest dogs in the world, I had my dogs go right in his ear and deep down in his ear and hit that nerve. They start growling and then crying and growling and crying and back and forth and they wanted out of there and I wouldn’t let my dog off their ear. I punished them so severely by the time they had a scratch, they are going to stay in the corner and they don’t want no more.
~ Ozzie Stevens
One of the best interviews.
IMO CH Silver the Sorrells dog from overseas was a great ear dog ..He did loose his last but I feel like he is a good example of ahead dog that beat some good competition..Not saying he is the best ear dog ever that a matter of opinion.
Silver didn't lose his last. His loss was one of his first few shows if I remember correctly.
My bad...I stand corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
That is the thing about losing: people in dogs seem to think it means the dog is no good if he loses ... or is somehow "less than" another dog that never lost.
"Oh, if so-and-so lost, then he can't possibly be as good as X, who never lost."
In some cases this could be true, in others nothing could be further from the truth.
The dog who lost to one opponent may whip the daylights out of some other dog who never lost.
Three things are true:
1) Styles make fights, and one dog's style may have been a problem for Silver, but the next several dogs were not;
2) Sometimes dogs are "off" one night, and have bad days just like anything else;
3) Truly great dogs learn and improve, and sometimes could not overcome a difficulty they first faced ... but know how to handle it the next time.
Jack
Agree with you Jack I have saw many losers who I would own/ breed to over the dog they lost to.
I would like to make a correction here as I called this Sorrells blood ..This is actually Mad and Skips blood as they bred a lot.of dogs for Bert and didnt really get the credit they deserved.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaman
The Dirk dog Diane Jessup had was a Mad and Skip hound lol what a waste.That dog had 22 match wins in his ped from Mad and Skip , he was a well bred dog.The Silver dog from over seas has same blood behind him.Dianne did actually collect semen off Dirk.Just a little history .She didn't get the dog directly from Mad and Skip..And no I don't even know Dianne but I know what the blood was she had.
Diane Jessup herself is a waste.
No truer words have ever been spoken.
I lost to a bitch one time who was an absolute freak mouthed dog and had a ton of 'pound for pound' strength. At the hour mark it was clear I didn't have enough dog there to get her into deep enough water. My bitch was all night game and the other was a rough, front running cur. I just didn't have enough dog to go maybe 5 or 10 minutes more. (Like all, I thought I did when I left home, LOL).
The winning dog was sold pit side for $$$$ and they asked my opinion. I was honest, if I could have had five more minutes and get the scratch on her I would have won on gameness alone. I was called a hater amongst other things. Several months later the 'winning' dog quit in less than 15 for a lot of $$$$$$. Months after that I bred my bitch. Two years after that the two males in the litter won on the same night. In the grand scheme of things I won, alike 'lost the battle but won the war' concept.
Great post Jack. Although 'winner' carries a lot of weight it can be a misleading term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Good posts, and let;s not forget about human mistakes when it comes to losses. Must be the nr 1 reason for losing after losing with the lesser dog.
Good post yourself EWO.
And yes, many times the owner loses for his dog, but sometime the overall better dog can lose too.
For example, Ken Norton beat Ali. Then Ali barely beat Norton on a return match.
For whatever reason, Ali just had trouble with Norton ... but yet Norton got devastated by Foreman, who lost to Ali.
Historically, Ali is 10x the fighter Norton ever dreamed to be ... and toyed with fighters who KO'd Norton ... yet, style-wise, Ali just struggled with Norton.
On and on it goes ...
Jack
So, for example, let's take Garner's Ch. Chinaman. They said he "had the mouth of an alligator. He was very clever. He would outsmart slick ear and nose dogs and cur them out. He would finish straight-ahead dogs even faster. Swapping-out was his game." Would it be fair to say he just never met the right "slick ear or nose dog" that was able to take his measure? That there may have been such a dog out there but they just never matched into each other? To read the accounts, you'd think Chinaman was an unstoppable juggernaut.
Correction: Chinaman out-smarted the mediocre ear/nose dogs they put on him ... but Chinaman never the faced anything close to the best head dogs that ever lived.Quote:
Originally Posted by STA8541
Exactly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by STA8541
"You" might think that, but I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by STA8541
The first thing you will learn is people over-exaggerate everything.
The second thing you learn is NO dog is "unbeatable," even legitimately great dogs.
No matter how good any dog is, there are dogs who either (1) are still overall better animals or who (2) have styles that are rough for them.
Some dogs retire before they are beaten, but that doesn't mean they were unbeatable.
Chinaman was a great dog, no doubt, but there are dogs that would kill Chinaman (that he never faced), same as there are dogs that would out-slick him (that he never faced).
The only thing that can correctly be said of Chinaman was, of the dogs he was put with, none beat him, but that doesn't give Chinaman (or any dog) an "unbeatable" medallion against every dog that ever walked the earth.
I mean, all anyone has to do is use their head and think for a moment.
Objectively, record- and quality-of-opposition-wise, what Chinaman accomplished (at best) was middle-of-the-road, compared to a dog like Ch Silver and even some of his opponents.
I am sure Chinaman could have beaten his share of greats, but there are plenty of all-time-greats who would likewise beat him.
Anyone who says different is a fanboy, not a dogman.
Jack
Fair enough.Quote:
Correction: Chinaman out-smarted the mediocre ear/nose dogs they put on him ... but Chinaman never the faced anything close to the best head dogs that ever lived.
I was just getting at the tenor of the accounts; I had a strong suspicion he could be whipped, which is why it threw up a red flag for me & I sought out instruction & experienced opinion.Quote:
"You" might think that, but I don't.
Fair enough.Quote:
The first thing you will learn is people over-exaggerate everything.
The second thing you learn is NO dog is "unbeatable," even legitimately great dogs.
No matter how good any dog is, there are dogs who either (1) are still overall better animals or who (2) have styles that are rough for them.
Some dogs retire before they are beaten, but that doesn't mean they were unbeatable.
Chinaman was a great dog, no doubt, but there are dogs that would kill Chinaman (that he never faced), same as there are dogs that would out-slick him (that he never faced).
The only thing that can correctly be said of Chinaman was, of the dogs he was put with, none beat him, but that doesn't give Chinaman (or any dog) an "unbeatable" medallion against every dog that ever walked the earth.
Never knew there were fanboys in the dog game. Thanks for the tip. And thank you for the thoughtful & detailed reply, Jack. Helps a lot.Quote:
Objectively, record- and quality-of-opposition-wise, what Chinaman accomplished (at best) was middle-of-the-road, compared to a dog like Ch Silver and even some of his opponents.
I am sure Chinaman could have beaten his share of greats, but there are plenty of all-time-greats who would likewise beat him.
Anyone who says different is a fanboy, not a dogman.
Styles makes a fight, and a dog can ( just like his human fighting counterpart ) struggle with a certain style while mopping the floor with others who are considered greats. The Ali-Norton-Foreman example is spot on. In history they would be ranked Ali, Foreman then Norton. But Norton gave Ali fits, but could not deal with Foreman who Ali beat. As Foreman has often said, "I was the dope in the rope-a-dope". Basically it is why we play the game. The Patriots were 18-0 and the Giants barely even made the playoffs. On that given Sunday (just happened to be Super Bowl Sunday) the Giants presented all kinds of match-up problems. Solid defense, pressure the quarterback and run the ball. The Patriots could not score with Brady and Co. on the sidelines.
Dogs no different. Chinaman no different. Retiring undefeated is a lot different than being undefeatable. EWO
I am a big boxing fan, EWO, so I hear you on styles making fights. Foreman surely was a dope that night in Zaire, lol. I also used to love football very much & so completely understand the Giants whipping the Pats that day...I still have trouble believing it happened! Getting Brady to move his feet definitely helped. I am going to try to remember some of Jack's advice as well, that people in the game tend to overexaggerate any particular dog's awesomeness. A grain of salt never hurt anybody.
Football talk relegated to here :mrgreen:
I don't think we've seen the baddest of the bad in any particular arena. Only those that have actually entered the arena.
There's a paddle for everyone's ass.
You can only objectively judge competitors, or anything else, on what they did or turned down to take on. Not what they could not possibly do.
just saw a european match with a dog named chika 6xw that is the kinda head face dog i like she would fight th ear nose and skull untill she had an opening for the throat she would also grab the upper leg /shoulder if they gave it to her to throw the opponent to the ground and then go straight into the throat