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Have 2 male pups that R losing hair on tail and feet think it might be mange! ! Is the anything I can do for them to see if it works before taking them to the vet? I have given them a medicated bath with antiseptic and bleached down there living area and houses!!
If it's mange stronghold worked good for me.
Where can I get strong hold
Come on now. Google is your friend. Or just call your vet.
My females tend to do that as pups. Only the tight carver stuff. Give them ivomec. The vet will give you the pills which will lower their blood count and then you will have to pay for a transfusion. So, IMO do it yourself
You can do the ivomec daily.
Or you can go to either Tractor Supply or Atwoods and buy this dip, which will cost less than $20 bucks. And will seemingly last forever.
This will rid most dogs of "red mange" or demodectic mange.
You can mix a garden push cart full, 5 gal bucket or trough and completely submerge the dog in it, whichever is easiest for you.
Do this daily mix according to packing directions. This will also make them shine like a new penny...and if you have any cuts or scrapes. It will dry and heal them up with the quickness!
As well as protect against flea and ticks should you have that problem as well.
Good luck!
Hi. You've barely given any information.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOTOR CITY
1. How old are they?
2. What are you feeding them?
3. In what kind of kennel situation are you keeping them?
You say you've bleached down their area, like it's a novel thing to do. I typically bleach pup kennels at least twice a week, if not more, depending on how many pups/weather, etc.
Your pups could be losing hair simply because of living in filthy conditions. Or, you can be doing everything right, and they simply do have hereditary mange.
Can't know which, until I see pics of the kennel, and have these questions answered.
Jack
They are 3 months old born may 10 I feed them loyall puppy food and they are in a kennel with it doesn't have a concrete floor it's dirt and grass
Loyall Puppy Food
Chicken by-product meal, brewers rice, ground whole wheat, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), corn gluten meal, ground whole corn, dried plain beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, menhaden fish meal, whole flaxseed, vegetable oil, dried egg product, extracted hydrolyzed citric acid fermentation presscake dehydrated, bentonite, potassium chloride, salt, propionic acid (preservative), vitamins: (vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin A supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity)), minerals: (zinc amino acid complex, ferrous sulfate, iron amino acid complex, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese amino acid complex, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide), brewers dried yeast, yucca schidigera extract, mixed tocopherols (preservative), citric acid (preservative), rosemary extract.
Red = Bad
Yellow = ehh
Green = Good
The rest is a vitamin pill.
Out of all the possible options available to you, why did you select this one ... and ... looking at it ... do you really want to feed this shit to your dogs?
Jack
Keep in mind, this is not to discredit you, but to get you to thinking ...
Why in the world would you buy this crap?
Before you start dumping a bunch of chemicals on your pups, 1) Feed them correctly and 2) Keep them correctly ... which, at this point, you're doing neither.
Above-Ground Pens are the optimal way in which to keep pups.
Jack
I've seen dogs fed Kibbles n' Bits, Pedigree and Ol'Roy and look as shiny and healthy as could be. Are they healthy internally? Probably not.
Feeding is a choice, and if you like Loyal Puppy Motor City good for you.
Jack does pose a very good question as far as the condition your pups are living.
Why have you come to the conclusion your pups have mange?
What you describe are dogs "appearing" healthy in spite of shitty food ... like a 5 year old who "looks normal" even with a shitty diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Check back with the "Dollar General" / "Walmart" kids when they're 40 ... and see what they look like compared to well-raised kids ... and check back with any shit-food-feeder when their dogs are 7-9 and compare how they look to optimal feeders ;)
:bootintheass:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Gotta give your opinion the boot here.
Feeding may be a choice; but shitty feeding = shitty feeding, which (ultimately) is good for NOTHING, not "you" and not "the dog" ...
Everything I said was good, including the living conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
That is exactly the kind of thought process I am trying to instill :)Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Optimal Conditions + Optimal Feed = Optimal Results
A person can skimp on as much as he wants on the left side of the equation, but they will affect the right side.
Do people who feed shit feed get good results? Sure.
Most people feed shit feed and have shit practices, and go into others who feed shit and keep their dogs like shit.
But that is not why I created this place, either to skimp or to say it's okay to skimp.
Why? Because such lazy people will invariably lose dogs they didn't need to, have MORE problems (skin/cancer/other) that could have been corrected ... and will have a real tough time beating outstanding dogmen who do everything RIGHT instead of everything wrong ...
Jack
Jack I personally wouldn't feed what I deem to be shitty feed.
Would I feed my dogs Loyal? He'll no, but it is made by one of the leading feed industries, Nutrena. It isn't the best choice in my opinion, or yours obviously. :D
But if a member here chooses to feed it, who are we to judge?
And I've seen an 18 year old cow dog who was fed whatever the feed store had handy when the cattlemen went to pick up grain. Who was healthy "looking". Don't think the rancher could have ever been convinced he done that dog wrong by not feeding optimally.
The dog in my box to the left was 10 years old when I snapped that pic. Fed kibble his whole life and lived on a dirt circle.
My point is, one can feed a less than stellar feed, keep pups in dirt and still raise healthy (inside and out) bulldogs.
Motor City came here for help, so before we all hop on him and assume he's guilty of committing bad practices. We should give him a chance, don't ya think?
What does being made by one of the leading feed industries mean, exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Nutrena is a flyspeck compared to Purina. And Purina makes some of the worst feed ever bagged and (mis)labeled "dog food" ...
Can you show me scientific literature which says dogs are supposed to eat corn, wheat, glutens, beet pulps, or any of the first 10 ingredients on that bag of food (besides chicken 'byproducts' and fat)?
Quite frankly, it is an label abomination and lie to call those ingredients "dog food."
Who am I? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Well, let's see. Um, I own this GD place, I built it from the ground up, I pay the rent every month, and I busted my ass for 2 years writing "the book" on the breeding/raising these dogs, that's who :mrgreen:
The question is, who are "you" to second-guess me on the subject? LMAO
Aside from THAT truth is the fact I am giving THE BEST advise, not saying, "Hey, it's okay to feed shit-food if you want."
That is not "advice," it is nothing.
Sorry, tip-toeing around the truth is not me and never will be me.
Citing individual exceptions is a waste of time and doesn't disprove the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I know people who are "still alive," after not eating or exercising right, but that doesn't mean "the new rule" is NOT to eat well, nor does this mean you should advise other people not to eat well.
It means some people "get by" eating shit food ... but they will never excel.
Okay, but what does that have to do with anything, other than forcing me to repeat the previous response.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Being "fed kibble" and "living in a dirt circle" is simply not the optimal way to raise a dog.
You can post a hundred such photos but that will never translate to "best practice."
What I think is you should stop attempting to be the "CA Jack police," because it's a title you don't have, and actually come to grasp with the fact I WAS helping him :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I was getting him to think in terms of BEST practice ... not "mediocre" practice.
Everything I said about that feed, and raising pups on dirt/grass (as opposed to above-ground pens) is 100% on the money. Period.
And I also believe I directly said this wasn't a slam on him personally, but designed to get him to THINK :idea:
Jack
Nutrena feeds the animals you buy in the supermarket to feed your bulldog Jack. And guaranteed those chickens eat corn!
No police here Jack. Yes your site your rules. Roger that, load and clear.:-bd
Cmoooooooonnnn! :-tQuote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I know you know better than that.
Chickens may eat corn, but that has nothing to do with dogs eating corn.
That's like saying, well deer eat acorns, saplings, and grass ... and wolves eat deer ... so I guess wolves can just "skip the deer" and eat acorns, saplings, and grass? :rotflmao:
It's not about "rules," it's about TRUTH :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
And the TRUTH is demodectic mange is 1 part genetics and 1 part environment.
The symptoms of demodex are the result of a weakened immune system that cannot fight-off the mange mite, like a normal healthy dog (with a good immune system) can.
And the FIRST thing that compromises the immune system of ANY animal is NOT being fed a diet it was designed to process and flourish on ... and the second thing that compromises immunity is the HEALTH AND CLEANLINESS OF THE ENVIRONMENT.
I am giving the guy (and you) PEARLS here ... make no mistake ... so it's not about "my rules" at all ... it's about my understanding of how mange outbreaks occur ... and how to prevent them at THE ROOT.
I can't correct any dog's genetics ... so the genetic heritability of mange is outside my control or any advice ...
But I also know that these other, underlying factors play a VITAL role in any dog's likelihood of coming down with the problem.
So, what I am saying (and you might want to actually listen ;) ), is before ANYone goes to soaking their dog in noxious chemicals to treat mange, they should FIRST examine what they're feeding ... and the environment ...
That is nothing but THE TRUTH ... and BEST PRACTICE ... believe it :idea:
Jack
Noxious chemicals? Really? I have used that product for many years, no deaths to report. In fact when I worked at a vets office for a while. I had a super poison ivy rash. As I'm highly allergic. Doc told me to dip some dogs...needless to say, it dried that oozing mess up!
We dipped everything that was sent in for a bath, to groom or that had fleas/ticks. Not one animal became ill.
Prolate/Lintox is a good product.
And yes the demodectic is as you described either genetic or from uncleanness.
I experienced it with the first litter I bred off of the family I have now...over 14 years ago. Those dogs were clean and well cared for. I think the stress of becoming bulldogs brought the initial onset of those symptoms then. I used the Prolate/Lintox then. cleared it up and it never returned.
No dogs since then have been clinical with the exception of one outcross pup. I suspect her immune system could have been compromised due to other reasons.
1. You're ignoring the truth of what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
2. I have used Amitraz for years, and never had a death either, but the product is STILL so toxic you're supposed to wear gloves and a bib.
3. You are WRONG that Prolate Lintox doesn't have any harmful effects (yeah, really):
Read this (for people who apply it): "WARNING: May be fatal if swallowed. Causes substantial but temporary eye injury. Harmful if absorbed through skin. Do not get in eyes, or on clothing. Avoid contact with skin. Wear protective eyeware (goggles, face shield, or safety glasses), long-sleeved shirt, long pants, shoes and socks, and chemical-resistant gloves (barrier laminate or viton, selection category G.)"
And this: (again, for people who apply it): "Acute exposure to phosmet may produce the following signs and symptoms: pinpoint pupils, blurred vision, headache, dizziness, muscle spasms, and profound weakness. Vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, seizures, and coma may also occur. The heart rate may decrease following oral exposure or increase following dermal exposure. Chest pain may be noted. Hypotension may occur, although hypertension is not uncommon. Dyspnea may be followed by respiratory collapse. Giddiness is common."
The net is full of research to prove the opposite of what you say (that happens to people just for being near it, or getting a little bit on them) ... so just think of what it does to the naked dogs that get this stuff applied full force (whether you realize it or not) ...
So, back to what I was saying ... BEFORE you go to dipping your dogs in NOXIOUS CHEMICALS ... try feeding them an optimal diet, and try keeping them in optimal conditions, FIRST, because this is BEST PRACTICE :-bd
Jack
(This message has been approved by The Pit Bull Bible 8) )
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I have experienced multiple cases of demodex, over going on 3 decades with the same family, and have continually had some segments of my own family that are prone to it.
In some case, I have seen it so bad I have received back several unwanted dogs with it from customers ... and taken these dogs back on the yard ... and done nothing else, except change their shit diet they were getting into the good diet I was giving ... and watched them transform in 6-8 weeks into glowing specimens of health ...
Sure, in some cases, I have had to use drugs too. But many times I never had to.
So, I know (not "think," but KNOW) that an optimal diet + optimal conditions play a HUGE part in mange prevention and effective mange treatment.
Jack
Jack,
I only dealt with it the first litter that I bred besides the one female I mentioned which was an outcross many years later.
It is obvious that the care (diet) I put into my dogs is the #1 reason I have not had a recurring issue . :-bd
I did not say Prolate/Lintox dip was without harmful effects. Hell dish soap is harmful if swallowed, doesn't mean I'm not going to use it to clean my dishes.
What I am saying is that when used correctly it is an effective and safe management of fleas, ticks and demodectic mange!
As well as Ivomec...another noxious chemical that is effective!
Actually, that is not obvious. I am sure you do take good care of your dogs, but some families of dogs are more prone, genetically, to mange than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I have seen some families of dogs that almost never get it.
I have also seen people with an assortment of dogs on the yard, all fed the same cheap food, with some dogs with mange, others without.
Please don't commit the absurdity (asininity) of comparing Prolate to dishwashing liquid. Please don't, because that is borderline retarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I know what you're saying. You've said it half a dozen times now.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
And what **I** am saying is that, BEFORE you go to soaking your dog in TRULY NOXIOUS CHEMICALS (not dishwashing liquid pal), but truly noxious chemicals ... MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE FEEDING YOUR DOGS A TRULY OPTIMAL DIET, FIRST, AND THAT THEY'RE IN OPTIMAL CONDITIONS, SECOND.
And I should be able to say this without "you" coming on here, over and over again, like a broken record, reiterating your previous statements and making new (false) statements to justify what you said.
Because, at the end of the day, my statements are FIRST, and BEST practice.
Best practice will never be "feed your pups a shit-kibble" ... "keep them on the dirt/grass" ... and, by golly, if they get mange, then "soak them in Prolate."
THAT IS IDIOT-PRACTICE, NOT BEST PRACTICE :idea:
I try my best to advocate BEST practice.
Best practice = feed your pups an optimal raw diet, keep them in above-ground pens, and MOST LIKELY you won't have to give them any kind of drug at all.
Can I make this TRUTHFUL STATEMENT without hearing another word from you again about "Prolate" ... or how it's "okay" to feed pups shit-kibble? (What that guy is feeding isn't even good kibble, it's pure garbage.)
Thanks,
Jack
Some people are just stuck on doing things a certain way for no other reason than because this is just how I do it. Doesn't matter if there is a better way or a healthier alternative. It always ends with "well this is what works for me". With that, even the most sound and logically advice will only be considered but probably never really put into effect.
Amen.
What people really want to hear is, "You're awesome dude. Doing everything perfectly."
They don't actually want to hear the truth, that they're halfasses, providing minimal care, and that what they're doing needs to be seriously upgraded (on every level) before they deserve to hear sincere praise and accolades ... and before they will ever get truly awesome results.
Jack
Jack,
I have used P/L many many times. Almost 15 years ago on my own bulldogs. At a dip clinic I volunteered at several times. Any time I acquired fleas from other dogmen (I've never had flea or tick issues on my yard) And at the veterinary clinic I worked in.
Never have I worn goggles, gloves or a full body suit. Not one of my dogs, nor anyone else's dogs, or cats have EVER become ill after being dipped in P/L.
Some of those dogs came in 2x a month at the vet clinic.
So just because you don't advocate the use of P/L, does not mean it isn't a good product.
You are a very smart fella, you have put out lots of great info.
But you are not the expert in everything, not by a longshot.
I'm actually very easy to talk to, should you change your mind on that call. :)
P.S.
I still dip my field cat, as she gets into the woods regularly, and I hate always applying that noxious chemical (Frontline) on her back every month. So on the off months, it's a dip if I see a tick!
PSS... I don't even drink enough to say I drink. Nor do I do any drugs, I work to much for any of that mess!
This is awl natural baby! Lmfao
Translation: You violate all of the instructions, but you have never paid the price yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
But that still doesn't make it good advice.
I never said it wasn't a good product at what it does; I said it is a noxious chemical, and it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I said getting their feed and quarters in order was step #1.
Thank you. And yes I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
I have never claimed to be an expert at "everything," but I *am* an expert on virtually all aspects regarding the subject of dogs :idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
And I have bred more dogs, dealt with more issues on the subject of dogs, experimented with probably more diets (and drug products) than 99.9999999999% of anyone alive who's still feeding dogs.
So you might want to pay a little more attention to what I am saying on "this subject" :)
LMAO, and so am I, should you actually PM your number to me :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
Again, you're babbling about something (Frontline) that has nothing to do with this issue: demodectic mange and its cause/cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B
The cause is weakened immune system, which could be genetic, but could also be nutritional/environmental.
My suggestion is the best: correct the nutritional/environmental aspect FIRST ... and decide later if drugs are even necessary.
Your suggestion (no consideration of nutrition/environment), and just use a drug, is non-advice. Your defense of your position, saying Prolate is no more dangerous than dishwashing liquid, was absurd.
There really is nothing to debate ... or talk about further.
Have a good night :)
Jack
Its true that immune system plays an important part in the cause of demodectic mange so improving health conditions is a smart thing to do. One thing i wouldn't use again is:
"ectodex" (amitraz). Had the most human friendly bitch ever, and she got aggressive towards me two times when intoxicated with it after i applied it on her. Very strong stuff, you don't want to put your nose above the bottle yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nut
Exactly. I have used amitraz multiple times myself, and (while it too worked), I only used it as a last resort, because of how noxious it is as a chemical.
Prolate is much like amitraz, and has the same warning level (actually, you are instructed NOT to use Prolate on swine less than 3 months old, because it can kill them). This drug has the same requirement as amitraz to use a bib, goggles, gloves, etc., as well as the same biohazrd warning NOT to dump the product anywhere at all in the environment, but to dispose of any excess at a proper biohazard facility, because of how truly noxious it is. They don't make these biohazard requirements for these drugs because of how "safe" they are; in fact quite the opposite. There are other drugs, such as cyhalothrin or cypermethrin, that can be used but the point of HEALTH is likewise being compromised.
These drugs are something to be used as a LAST resort, not the first thing you do "before" you even bother to change the diet or living conditions that contributed to the problem. For that matter, since all of these dips are to be left on "wet," you don't put the animal back into a dirt pen after a dip ... but into an above-ground pen anyway. So that should be the first change made, regardless: proper living quarters for an infected animal.
There are many powerful drugs that can handle mange mites, and (since over the counter amitraz is becoming more scarce) new patents for new drugs are happening.
But to rely on these drugs first, when (and while) the person still has their animals in a primitive dirt pen (rather than professional setup), and while feeding the animals a substandard feed (the majority of the ingredients of which are a who's-who roster for ingredients KNOWN to cause skin problems) is simply folly. And to have some guy (who doesn't follow the other rules of how to use Prolex properly) just poo-poo the idea of getting the conditions changed FIRST, and diet changed FIRST, would only fall right in line with his other total disregard for following the recommended protocol in which to use the very drug he's espousing also.
I don't know how any sane, experienced fancier can't possibly see THE SENSE in first getting those pups into a legitimate, clean, above-ground puppy pen (as opposed to a dirt kennel) ... then feeding them something that is actually GOOD nutrition for them ... before anything else is even considered. Because that is the sensible approach.
As someone who has received back at least 10 dogs because "they had mange" ... ALL OF WHOM were being fed cheap kibble by their cheap owners ... and MOST OF WHOM got better simply by being cared for better (better diet / better quarters, when I got them back) ... that I KNOW (not "think," but KNOW) my advise is spot on.
Some dogs are simply able to handle cheap, inappropriate kibble diets better than others ... and in those dogs who can't handle these cheap kibble concoctions, the very first sign of breakdown is skin disorders (mange, allergies, etc.) ... and so the very first way OUT of those disorders is by changing their diets to something that is actually nutritious for them ... it's NOT to keep feeding them shit, keep housing them in their dirt pen, but "just dip them in drugs."
And anyone who can't see the basic sense of this needs to have their head examined.
Jack
A very complete and informative post, and free of insults. I support this 100% and give it a thumbs up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
All offensive posts have been removed, we will just leave it at this :-bdQuote:
Originally Posted by CA JackExactly. I have used amitraz multiple times myself, and (while it too worked), I only used it as a last resort, because of how noxious it is as a chemical.
Prolate is much like amitraz, and has the same warning level (actually, you are instructed NOT to use Prolate on swine less than 3 months old, because it can kill them). This drug has the same requirement as amitraz to use a bib, goggles, gloves, etc., as well as the same biohazrd warning NOT to dump the product anywhere at all in the environment, but to dispose of any excess at a proper biohazard facility, because of how truly noxious it is. They don't make these biohazard requirements for these drugs because of how "safe" they are; in fact quite the opposite. There are other drugs, such as cyhalothrin or cypermethrin, that can be used but the point of HEALTH is likewise being compromised.
These drugs are something to be used as a LAST resort, not the first thing you do "before" you even bother to change the diet or living conditions that contributed to the problem. For that matter, since all of these dips are to be left on "wet," you don't put the animal back into a dirt pen after a dip ... but into an above-ground pen anyway. So that should be the first change made, regardless: proper living quarters for an infected animal.
There are many powerful drugs that can handle mange mites, and (since over the counter amitraz is becoming more scarce) new patents for new drugs are happening.
But to rely on these drugs first, when (and while) the person still has their animals in a primitive dirt pen (rather than professional setup), and while feeding the animals a substandard feed (the majority of the ingredients of which are a who's-who roster for ingredients KNOWN to cause skin problems) is simply folly. And to have some guy (who doesn't follow the other rules of how to use Prolex properly) just poo-poo the idea of getting the conditions changed FIRST, and diet changed FIRST, would only fall right in line with his other total disregard for following the recommended protocol in which to use the very drug he's espousing also.
I don't know how any sane, experienced fancier can't possibly see THE SENSE in first getting those pups into a legitimate, clean, above-ground puppy pen (as opposed to a dirt kennel) ... then feeding them something that is actually GOOD nutrition for them ... before anything else is even considered. Because that is the sensible approach.
As someone who has received back at least 10 dogs because "they had mange" ... ALL OF WHOM were being fed cheap kibble by their cheap owners ... and MOST OF WHOM got better simply by being cared for better (better diet / better quarters, when I got them back) ... that I KNOW (not "think," but KNOW) my advise is spot on.
Some dogs are simply able to handle cheap, inappropriate kibble diets better than others ... and in those dogs who can't handle these cheap kibble concoctions, the very first sign of breakdown is skin disorders (mange, allergies, etc.) ... and so the very first way OUT of those disorders is by changing their diets to something that is actually nutritious for them ... it's NOT to keep feeding them shit, keep housing them in their dirt pen, but "just dip them in drugs."
And anyone who can't see the basic sense of this needs to have their head examined.
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_B