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I know this has been discussed a million times but what are your guys thoughts on this issue? obviously a nut case is going to pop up from time to time, but I'm of the opinion that 99 percent of the time this can be prevented by simply taking the dog off the chain once or twice a week.
I think the term "maneater" needs to be put under the microscope and analyzed in order to answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
If a dog is always aggressive (as in seriously intent to do harm), and even prone to biting its own owner, then I would probably just shoot the dog.
If the dog is on-off aggressive, even to its owner, then I would likewise just shoot the dog.
However, if a dog is just GEEKED-UP (meaning excited to work but not truly aggressive), then I agree that time off the chain (and hell, plain socialization) will take the edge off.
If a dog always loves me, but hates everyone else, then I personally have no problem with that. That is how guard dogs function.
Jack
I don't mind if a hound tends to dislike everyone else but me, hell I would prefer that in all my dogs... That tends to keep the thieves away...
that's pretty much the way I see it. I don't really consider the dog a maneater unless it goes after the hand that feeds it. for no other reason than to hurt somebody. I've had quite a few dogs off of and down from gr ch virgil, burns hot dawg, and dlc gr ch bo. Who were all known to have at least one of the degrees of human aggression you mentioned above. and haven't had one yet.
always makes me think when I hear those old stories about bully son, zebo, and the other famous man eaters. were they really or was it just the fact that they were hi Drive working dogs on huge yards that never got off the chain from 3 months to 2 years old? granted most dogs would never display this behavior, but these were fuckin killers, that were raised in solitary confinement. I wouldn't expect anything else.
Neither Bullyson or Zebo were in solitary confinement even after Zebo bit Adams son when Mr Johnson got him, he had a lot of free roam. Lonzo never said Zebo was a biter, it was Mtn Man but his wife said she never had an issue with Zebo.
what did lonzo and Jerry have to say about how those two were raised? I've never heard that part of the story. both of them were passed around quite a bit. where they not aggressive towards the people that raised them from pups?
Bullyson couldn't have been a true maneater. He' s sitting on that house with Carver ... and then there was that photo of him in a room, by a coffee table, with several men in the room.
My guess he was aggressive to strangers.
wasnt there speculation that bullyson wasnt a maneater at all and that was all fabricated by bobby hall? and that it was really eli jr that would get that ass....!?!?!? anybody else heard these rumors?
Ditto.
I had one off Ch. Jethro back to a Mayday/Tant's Bruiser female who was turning out to be a really nice dog. He started showing signs early, and around 12 months he started showing aggressive signs he wanted to bite me. I put a lot of time into him, did quite a bit of socialization and his propensity to bite me continually increased. With all the time and work I think I may have delayed the end result but I think the end result was inevitable. Around 21-22 months he laid his cards on the table and pretty much said, 'all-in'.
As the signs increased it came to a head when I walked out of his spot and he bit me in the back of the leg, luckily on the boot, and he meant harm. He was turning out to be a good dog in sport so I gave him more chances than he needed, basically hoping against hope. The next day he met me at the end of the chain, let me know it was a no-entry area and entering his area would have a painful outcome for me. At that point I gave him a vitamin and he never showed another sign of 'biting the hand that feeds'.
It happens. I think it is better to figure out the WHY?, instead of just lumping every situation into 'maneater'. EWO
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I've never owned a dog that was aggressive towards me, so I guess I've never owned a true manbiting dog. I've owned quite a few dogs that would try to bite everyone aside from my wife or myself. Like Jack, I've never had any issues with dogs like that, even though some people would. I've owned a lot of dogs, and still do, that absolutely despise children. I believe that's simply more in line with never being around them personally. Be that as it may, my yard is a No Kid Allowed zone if they come with parents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
That's not a man eater bro that is prey drive.....they look at the small kids as prey....eye level with them...I have owned a few that would let know 1 touch them but me and EWO can vouch for that.....I have always said these dogs are not for the pet owner when you have a working line......You don't have to turn them own it's in the blood.......1 of the biggest reason the dogs get a bad rap....idiots own them.....I have owned dogs that I would never let young kids get around.....same thing with a lot of working dogs.....Pet owners buy them and expect them to be a pet.....They want to work....
On yea EWO had them damn Fila....shit you want a man eater get 1 of them fuckers...
t
Yeah, kids are another deal too. I agree that is prey drive.
Bandana would go ballistic at a kid, just like it was a dog. To her, it was "small and moving," so it needed to be killed.
I have never seen Silverback around kids, but I wouldn't trust him with one.
He was too intense and perpetually geeked-up to trust, and he was irritable if anything f*cked with him.
When he would play, even with me, it was always very rough, and his bites left bruises on me, let alone a small kid.
His daughter, Amazon, is the opposite, very calm and docile with kids (even other animals). She is more like Poncho in that regard.
Poncho could be eaten alive by puppies; they could play tug-of-war with his face, pull his ears till they bled, never bothered him.
My niece could grab both of his ears and hang on him, under his chin, and he would support her weight with his neck, and let her hang onto his ears, and he never even paid attention.
To be honest, I actually trust the deep, deep gameness of a CALM dog, more than a geeked-up dog ... they tend to conserve their energy better, last longer, and tend to be more unflappable in the trenches IMO.
Jack
I believe they were very weary of strangers, Zebo also road in cars free of confienment. I would suggest that maybe they were aggressive or just high prey driven animals. Now if a man is what they concentrated on as prey, they would be dangerous, but true maneater I dont know if that is what they were. Not if there were running free at houses and inside cars with more than 1 person in the vehicle.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I'm with you on that jack. it does seem like a lot of those laid back dogs with virtually no aggression even towards dogs tend to be in it for the long haul. Although most of the time they were low ability dogs that didn't do much when they got there but they keep coming. not my cup of tea but you have to respect that.
DTA remember this...We had just worked DTA's Ch. Charlie. You were rubbing him down and I was insulating and covering the shop walls. I dropped a handful of nails, stooped down to pick them up and I looked up. Basically I was down on Charlie's eye level, crouched down close to being on all four's and looking him in the eye. He raised up, tensed and leaned forward. He was a hair away from making scratch.
Nothing man-eating about that just a dog doing what he was both bred and schooled to do. Good times. EWO
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Originally Posted by dtakennels
I tend to see calm dogs as the opposite: high intelligence, dogs that take their time ... and get better and better the longer it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
A dog that has the sense to recognize what's friend, and what's foe, is typically the SMARTER animal :idea:
I think a lot of the "geeked-up" dogs start so fast, and look so good EARLY ... simply because they're letting it all hang out early ... so of course they look more impressive (at least at first).
It's like running: if you run as fast as you can, you'll cover more ground quicker ... but, ultimately, you'll never make it as far as a runner who paces himself.
Seems like, if the geeked-up dogs are truly superior to their foe, then they pretty much just steamroll the competition, which gets everyone all excited.
Trouble is, if those geeked-up dogs draw a dog with just as much ability, but a calmer demeanor, it seems like that, just about the time those geeked-up dogs start running out of steam, and fading out, those "laid back dogs" really start to come to life and begin to pour it on ... and it tends not to go so well for front-runners, when they draw a truly badass, truly long-distance War Horse like that ...
Geeked up dogs, because of their anxiety, simply "burn more juice" by their very nature and style; whereas rock-calm dogs simply conserve themselves by NOT being that way.
High-intensity dogs are exciting, and fun to watch, and I have had my share of good ones like that ... but I will always trust a truly long-distance machine a whole lot more if I have to be in a war ...
Jack
I wasn't implying that dogs after kids made them maneaters. I was making another point on dogs was all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dtakennels
I've seen a lot of "geeked-up" dogs on the chain not be that way once they get inside the square and the same can be said for calm dogs on the chain being complete retards inside the walls.
I tend to see them all as dogs initially, and let them show me what they are as time goes by. Calm doesn't always equate to intelligence anymore than geeked up points to anxiety or ignorance.
I do believe if you have 2 dogs of equal abilities, and one is a high strung animal INSIDE the walls, the calmer dog has the better chance of coming out on top, especially when pulled off the chain. That truly is what separates dogs on their own levels as opposed to a show where man has such an influence on potential outcomes. While I would never call an OTC gathering an actual show, regardless of a ref, weight, etc, I do firmly believe that is the best way to actually let the dogs themselves hash it out. I know that's off topic a tad, but I just followed my train of thought down the yellow brick road.
I wasn't around back in the days of Zebo and bullyson, but i did get the chance to hang out with virgil for a weekend. He was chill in the house. Climbed right in my lap.
The next morning gambler put him on the chain while they took care of a few things. Later on i asked him about the rumors of Virgil being a man eater. as up until this point he seemed like a sweetheart.
He kind of smiled and said go take him off the chain. so I figured he wasn't
going to be too happy with me walking up to him on his chain, but out of
curiosity I tried anyway.
he was just kind of looking at me as I got closer. then about 20 feet from his
chain space it was like I crossed an imaginary line. and that crazy fucker
jumped up, and ran at me with everything he had. hitting the end of the chain
so hard i thought the swivel was gonna break. Just absolutely raising hell. We got a good laugh out of it.
but anyway in his case. I think he was just very territorial. and once he
claimed the spot as his own you best not go near it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I feel you need both. macho and Xena would let you walk a dog in thier chainspot if they were sunbathingoon a nice day, but let them see four walls... different story
Jack this could be a thread of it's own. People ask me why I like Ch Angus Depot so much. Well he can run with other dogs of either sex and he can live in the house with no problems. But put him between your legs and he he will come unplugged .Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I agree the OTC stuff, in theory, and truly OTC, have their merit. Agreed off topic, but to somewhat reel it back to the topic...most will agree fatigue and frustration can be the path to finding the cur. Of the two types of dogs the high strung/geeked up dog will more than likely run out of gas before his calm/methodical partner. Fatigue can lead to frustration, and frustration can lead to fatigue. It cuts both ways.
The problem (for me) with OTC is that two parties will seldom be equal, as one will come OTC and the other will 'walk his dog a little', or it wasn't a full 8 week keep, maybe 6 1/2. At least when it is a show all the cards are laid out and in most cases the better team wins.
Also agree about 'lifestyles' not being truly indicative of 'box traits'. A buddy of mine had a Ch. Tyrone bred bitch that stayed in her box close to 23 1/2 hours per day. She came out to eat, a quick piss and a dump and back in her box. She was not shy to people, she just did not see the need to bark and carry on at leaves, or other dogs, or dogs being taken off the chain. When the door shut behind you and she seen four walls she was absolutely maniacal, a controlling and punishing between the eyes face dog. Super intense. Remove the box from the equation and she went back to her house and happily waited.
The DTA Ch. Charlie male was high strung and as intense on and off the chain as any dog ever. If his dog house was slid back, then go rub the dog at the next chain space he would then turn his 14ft chain into a flying jenny. He would go at a dead run with a lot of that chain suspended for what seemed like hours on end. Lap after lap. After 6 weeks of that he could have been truly an OTC ace. LOL. He was methodical, but his methodical was much more intense than the next dog's methodical.
I have also seen those really smart, methodical, dogs who pace themselves break another down to death's door and then walk away, like "what's the point" I already kicked the shit out of him what more do I need to do?
It takes all kinds. EWO
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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws
Yes, most high strung dogs will run themselves out of gas, especially if not worked in a proper manner.
I also agree on the OTC scenarios that you mention. Maybe I should've prefaced those comments with, "in a perfect world...." or "if it's someone you trust."
You are exactly right in that it takes all kinds.
DTA mentioned I had Filas for a number of years. As man aggressive as any dog out there, as their breeding has pushed them that way for many years, but they must be tested "GREEN". It can be as early as 10-11 months ( a bit premature for me but I did have one that was full on at 11 months but not the norm) or as late as 2-3 years. The temperament test is basically a guy in a suit with a short stick with a marker attached to the end. He basically moves at you in an aggressive manner trying to mark you and the dog must get out in front and engage to prevent the attack (protection). A green dog who is correct will bite the first thing he can get to and a lot of times will re-grip/re-direct upward biting toward the face. The green dog who is correct is hectic in his bite, biting with the front teeth/hangers and may or may not target. The 'sleeve happy' dog (trained) targets his bite to the sleeve, bites full mouth (practice) and performs in a more calm fashion (methodical). Both of these dogs show up to be evaluated/temperament tested for correctness. In bulldog terms, one is OTC and the other is not.
I agree 'in a perfect world' or 'someone who you trust' is a the best preface in showing merit in OTC. But even that can be a little deceiving as the chain running/very active dog will be in a little better shape than his lay around all day buddy. Then the question becomes did he run enough gas into himself to outlast the next guy or was he truly the better dog. I have always considered it a team sport, it is dog and man or man and dog, whichever you prefer.
Luckily I have only had one that I thought was a true man biter (bulldog). I have had others that would reach back and snap or nip to make you let them go to get to the other side. That is where a handle really becomes a "handle". Seen a dog being de-fanged and he re-gripped and got the hand. Like always, some 'all knowing, genius of a dog man' standing pit side exclaims he would not have a man biter like that and he would put him down right now.
Regardless of how people rank traits mouth is the most popular across the board. It is the most talked about. It's importance is relative. But when they are bred to bite other things it can't be a surprise when they bite something other than what we want them to bite. (us).
Again it takes all kinds. EWO
Regardless of how people rank traits mouth is the most popular across the board. It is the most talked about. It's importance is relative. But when they are bred to bite other things it can't be a surprise when they bite something other than what we want them to bite. (us).
Again it takes all kinds. EWO
Meaning, we must look at the 'why-s' when it happens to truly distinguish between man eater and non-man eater. EWO
Fat Bill said his very favorite, Bolero, would run loose in the yard and ignore all the other dogs ... played with pups ... but you put her in the [] and she'd shipwreck what was in front of her ...Quote:
Originally Posted by wrknapbt
I have never had a dog that "would hit anything" that I thought was my best dog.
My best dogs always knew WHAT to hit, and what not to hit :idea:
Silverback's mama Missy was among the funniest examples of this: as you carried her to the pit, her tail would be wagging, but as soon as you step over the wall, she'd be, "Aggggggg!", growling ... step back out, she'd wag her tail like a puppy ... step back in, "Aggggggg!", growling ... she knew what the pit was :lol:
Missy was the hardest scratcher (of an assload of hard scratchers) I've ever had and was devastating.
Even funnier, I put her in the pit with (the much larger) Wild Red Rose for Rosey's first time. Rosie was a big, thick, slow, ponderous (but extremely powerful) animal.
When faced with Rosey, Missy flew over there, chest-bumped Rosey, and immediately assessed that Rosey was a big puppy, and then just ignored Rosey.
That was the first time that ever happened. I had always put Missy in there with fully-started bitches, and Missy would just annihilate them ... but that day I discovered that Missy wouldn't bite something that already didn't want to bite her. The two started playing.
So I put Coca Cola in there with Rosey, just to get her started, as Coki was a puppy-killer, and would kill anything with hair that was moving, or try to, that wasn't her own pup sucking her tit.
Coki grabbed Rosey's front leg and went to shaking, and Rosey lowered her front end and started playing with Coki ... she was so strong, pain-tolerant, thick, and durable that what Coki was doing to her was flyshit, and she thought Coki was just trying to play, so she was bouncing around and "playing back" :lol:
When Rosey finally did start, later in life, she was a ponderous, but devastating animal (like George Foreman). Rosey was big, but only a 46, but she nonetheless wrecked and stopped the 6-lb bigger bitch who had Southern Kennels' Kitana picked up over at Leon's ... breaking that bitch's leg up at the elbow ...
Sure Rosey didn't even bother to do anything to the tiny Coca Cola, whom she didn't even assess to be a threat :lol:
Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Very interesting. love a smart dog.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by evolutionkennels
To each their own.
Many different man biters. I like consistency. If he's going to bite anything and everything, I can deal with that. If he is sporadic or unpredictable on what he will bite, when and why? I'll shoot him. Only had one like this in my life. He grabbed the back leg of my overalls right below my ass and tore the entire back leg of the overalls off. I never stopped walking. Went it, got my .44 mag and that was that. I will not feed an unpredictable idiot of any kind, most specifically an unpredictable biter.
I don't mind a dog that will bite others but loves me. Couldn't care less. He knows who feeds him and I'm cool with it so it works.
Worst biter, most aggressive I've ever seen was the T Rex dog on Hammonds' place. If anyone has his book, he's the dog in the "Man Biter" chapter of his book. I took that picture myself standing about 3 feet from him at the time of that photo.
exciting I can handle , unpredictable , territorial, outright maneater gotta go
for every average troublemaker , there tons of average dogs that are more fun to have
I got a male that I was walking one night and this guy came up from behind us out of no where and he tried to grab the guy.I don't know what the guys intentions were.Same dog , had this kid come running at us with both his hands raised and was screaming and my dog didn't like that..He hit the end of the leash and let him know ,kid almost shit himself I'm sure...Same dog will let kids aproach him on the leash and let them pet him with no problems...He has never bit anyone..But had those 2 situations with him..He is fine with most dogs but he will go.
Not being the Dog Whisperer but it is a defense mechanism. A startled dog will either choose fight or flight. Most dogs choose flight. Of the ones who choose fight, the majority of that is nothing more than a display. Funny how it works but as owners it is a must to differentiate between the real and the display, and best case scenario is to never leave it to chance.
We were at a show once and I was getting my dog out of the truck, about to walk him out before we weighed and this guy out of nowhere stepped from around the truck. (maybe taking a leak or something, who knows) but my male went ape shit. He had never once acted like that in any situation before. Luckily it was a short lead, any more room and he would have snatched hold.
Funny part when the guy identified himself and most think of him as not an exactly upstanding guy, there was this old dude who said, "If he tried to bite him your dog must be a real shit eater".
When we own dogs with the propensity to bite we can never leave it up to them to make the decision. And as I say that I use to own Fila Brasileiros and kept two in the house. If someone broke in, odds are that is where we would have found them. But in that case it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six. EWO
Yea EWO I agree.Thought about it and decided he was just standing his ground.He was a young dog at the time so he is older now.We haven't been around any kids and such lately but from what I can tell he hasn't changed any.One of his sons tried to bite a redhead chick and found out she stole from me..Only one he ever tried to bite.lol
It is a hard deal trying to figure out which ones will really stand their ground and which ones will bail. With the bulldogs I never really cared to find out as with bulldogs it is unimportant information to me. The number of bulldogs with the desire to defend is in the minority especially compared to the number of bulldogs who just love everybody.
In most cases bulldogs are really easy to steal because they simply love the interaction with people. There are some that do not but for the most part they are people friendly dogs.
With the Filas a buddy of mine took turns in bite suits and staged break-ins at each other's houses. I had a female that I thought would be there to the end. She started off well but when he applied some pressure she packed it in. My other female would have killed a grown man, with what seemed like a certain happiness in the killing. One of my males the same. He had a female that performed well and a male that bailed.
I those cases we knew. In most cases people think their dog will protect them in a bad situation, but very, very few will actually perform in a bad situation. The kicker is that the display itself is 99% of all the home security a person will ever need.
A little off topic but I think for the most part man eaters have been culled over time so their numbers will always be low. There will always be some but I do not think it will trend very high, especially in the circles of competition. EWO
I see this every sunday with the new guys who come to train with us. " Man this is a bad ass dog and he will nail you. I then show them the fear that the dog is acting out of and once the simple pressure of a front attack is applied how they will take flight. Then I show them how to build a confident controlled animal that you can take with you and a dog that can now do directional grips without being a living lawsuit waiting to happen. EWO I have a question for you. Are most Filas considered short range dogs? When I say short range I mean like they will do the work within 10 to 20 yards but tend to back off after the person runs away.Quote:
Originally Posted by EWO
Sounds like by the description of the attack most of the filas work purely out of defense. with little or no prey. Which is why you don't see many doing sport work. never seen one work in person. But sounds they'd make a good close quarter dog.
Very accurate. They do not possess (or seldom possess) enough prey drive to build upon to do work out to a distance. Most of their work is at close range, and it is most always defensively driven. I have only seen a very few that possessed enough prey drive to do any type of sport work, and even those were limited.
If the Fila can do the sport work they usually fail at the 'natural-defensive' temperament test as it is dependent upon their natural defensive/territorial tendencies. That failure will lead to that dog with good working ability being removed from the gene pool.
In close quarters when a Fila is correct I am not sure, or better said, I have not experienced their equal. With that said, they do that job so well they in turn become a liability. They have to be locked away when company is over. People will tell you their dog can differentiate between good and bad and react accordingly but that is simply not true. A dog is either trained to bite and trained to 'out' or he bites at his own discretion which is always a ticking time bomb (when they have access to people). With a Fila, when your buddy gives you a high five because your team just scored the Fila sees that as a 'karate chop' of sorts and he will react with extreme intensity...intensity that exposes one to a brand new level of violence.
I enjoyed my time with them but it is a 'show community' and I soon fell out of the good graces of the power players. I had a female that failed their temperament test but defended our home very well, even under pressure. She had conformation faults that made her a bad specimen yet she would track a shot deer as well as any I have seen. She did not have that defensive driven territorial aggression that prevented off lead work. She even caught a hog in a bay pen. She was a good dog, just not a good Fila, or at least that is what they told me. LOL.
It can be the perfect dog to leave with the family when one (me) is working swing shifts an hour away. EWO
Their ferocity is at a much higher level than that of a sport dog, even the most intense sport dog. The sport dog is basically playing a game that was built with a high level of prey drive, coupled with defense drive to build fight drive, and in some circles, prevent flight or avoidance. The sport dog can get all jacked up and upon release can be given his 'ball' and all is well in the world. The Fila must be physically removed from the area in order to 'wind down' and it takes time. Actually very similar to the bulldog who is rolled or matched for 30-40-50 minutes and is still mad and geeked up 30 minutes afterwards on the ride home. EWO
All bloodlines can produce a maverick type dog. Same with horses, Game Chickens, a animal that attacks the hand that feeds it. Got a well bred nice looking young male like that, from Mr. Joe Beal. Dog was a good solid 65 pound dog, around 20 months old. Looked very good in a roll, Mr. Beal was even taking this dog into his house around him and his wife before I got the dog.
After about two weeks of this big sucker trying to attack me when I fed it. Only when I fed it. Last time this dog almost got my whole hand. I calmly went into the house, got my 12 gauge and made worm bait out of that sucker. I told Mr. Beal that dog was to dangerous and may end up hurting or killing him or his wife. I later gave Mr. Beal his last main stud that he named Southern Johnny Reb. He was very pleased with Johnny Reb.
If you do some historical study on these dogs, will find where one of Mr. Colby's dogs sadly killed one of his baby grandchildren. The dogs that are mentioned to be territorial type dogs and will go on a person is the older Tudor line and that Henry line. Randy Fox's site may have that info about the older Tudor dogs. I have found from reading the older magazines that a lot of territorial type dogs seem to crop up in the heavy Dibo bred dogs.
Mayfield's Snake was named so, as like Zebo might like you one day and bite you the next. I tried to get V.J. not to use and breed so heavily off that Snake dog. I felt that one time was enough off my Tina bitch by my mistake. I actually sent her back to Don, to breed to Mayfield's Sunshine, which Don did do at a later date. I will say again, never breed a good bitch to a stud dog that is still being shown. Never know how it will all end. I felt Snake was a weirdo, crowd shy, fair weather hard biting cur like Pat Patrick said Snake was. The gaminess off that litter came from my little Tina bitch. The extremely hard mouth and a foul fighting style came from Snake's descendants. I figure, LOL.
My Face bitch was a heavy Eli/Mayfield bred dog. Was a Territorial type dog on her chain. Why I kept her chained inside of a strong roomy outer locked kennel. If you were a stranger and came on my yard, walked out to close to her without me being there. If not kept the way I did. You would be seriously dog bite and mauled. Yet when taken out of the pen on the leash showed no aggression to anyone or group of men. Unless one was stupid enough to rush at me acting like he was attacking me. Would seriously get dog bit.
So one has to determine if they have a maverick that bites the hand that feeds it or a Territorial type dog protecting their space from unknown people. Still a Territorial type dog needs to be kept extra secure to prevent any accidental human contact by adults, children, or strangers. To come home and find a child dead in your dog yard would truly be a American Horror Story.
Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner told me that our breed of dog was bred for the show and go. They considered it a bad idea selling good dogs or culls to the general public. Only to sincere professional dog men. They felt it was best to cull your own dog yard from all undesirables as worms need to eat also. LOL Cheers
LMFAOQuote:
Originally Posted by wolverine