INDIAN SONNY'S BOLIO DOGS -- BETTER THAN PATRICK'S?

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum..._003186_01.jpg

It is old news to most people that Indian Sonny was the rightful owner of Indian Bolio, and that Bolio was stolen by Pat Patrick's partner (Lou Louis) and that Pat wound up with Bolio. Well, I was just doing some thinking about "what if" Pat Patrick had never received the stolen Indian Bolio from Lou Louis ... would linebred Bolio dogs be a stronger force today than they are now?

On the one hand, because Patrick was mostly a dog-seller, the fact Patrick got ahold of Bolio, bred him a lot, and sold all the pups, created the ability of THE WHOLE FANCY profiting and benefiting from the prepotency of Indian Bolio.

On the other hand, truth to tell, the more I look at the pedigrees, the more I like the breedings of Indian Sonny's dogs better :-?

• For example, Bolio's most famous offspring in the hands of Patick has to be Patrick's Red Baby.
• The thing about it is, Indian Sonny's best Bolio bitch, Ch Indian Bloomers, decimated Red Baby's sister ... and everything else she faced.

Sure, Indian Bolio produced some great dogs for Patrick, like Ch Princess and her brother Chen Leng, but I like the Corvino & Eli blood behind the Indian Sonny dogs better than I like the Clouse blood. For one thing, the Eli blood is more powerful and can win in its pure form (while today's Clouse dogs can't), and for another the Corvino blood Sonny used is just as game as the Clouse dogs, but are built MORE rugged and durable IMO.

While, admittedly, it would be hard for any bitch to beat Red Baby's production record, it still doesn't change the fact that Indian Bloomers (also a heavy Bolio dog) beat the mess out of Red Baby's sister. While, of course, this is not definitive, it gets you thinking. Moreover, while the amount of truly great dogs coming from Patrick was astounding, once he received the stolen Bolio and bred the daylights out of him, the very fact that Patrick sold his Bolio dogs everywhere was as much a factor to their success as was their quality. (Sonny didn't really make his dogs available.) So, yes, most of the direct offspring of Bolio retained his prepotency, a la the linebred Gr Ch Ojo Azul, but so did Indian Sonny's linebred Bolio dogs, as with Hook's Gr Ch Rowdy.

In fact, Gr Ch Rowdy was bred to a daughter of Red Baby to produce A & M's Ch Red Dog, which is in the pedigree of Hollingsworth's Dolly. With the help of Yellow, this elevated the game, tough Hollingsworth dogs into the game, tough, elite level of the Mayday generation.

Meanwhile, the same blood as Gr Ch Rowdy, using only Indian Sonny's combinations (Bolio/Eli/Carver/Corvino) made Champions and Grand Champions left as it is, such as Jesse Rods' Gr Ch Midnight.

It is hard to rate one line over the other. Patrick's Bolio dogs (with Clouse and Tombstone) have certainly been WAYYY more influential, but again that is because Patrick was selling his dogs all over the world, while Sonny kept his private, selling only to a very select few individuals. Had Sonny been able to keep Indian Bolio his whole life, and kept his Bolio/Eli/Corvino combinations rolling ... and especially if they really got out there, I think they possibly could have stood the test of time better than Patrick's versions.

It was mentioned on another thread that the pure Clouse dogs now lack bone and "need help" to be competitive, while pure Eli-type dogs are capable of still making Champion and Grand Champion, as they are, and pure Corvino dogs are still durable as rhinos and can survive any onslaught and go 3 hours. Anyone who is truly familiar with Pat Patrick's bloodline knows that most of Pat Patrick's purebred Bolio dogs have gone the way of the Clouse dogs (tiny, thin-boned, can't win).

So I am thinking out loud here: what if Pat Patrick hadn't have received the stolen Indian Bolio? What if, instead, Indian Sonny would have kept his rightful ownership of Bolio, continued to breed Bolio to the best Eli bitches possible, and the best Eli/Corvino combinations, and bred these daughters back to Bolio? Might these have been even better? Might the line still be more competitive, in its pure form, today?

Remember, what we call "pure Bolio dogs" are really pure Bolio/Clouse + Bolio/Tombstone combinations (with, of course, the various paper-hangings of Reuben and other Carver dogs in there) :rolleyes:

But what if, instead, these were linebred Bolio dogs, with Eli/Corvino combinations ... like what demolished Red Baby's littermate sister?

While no one can deny the historical "contributions" of Pat Patrick's thievery, combined with his disseminating Bolio dogs all over the world ... the question remains ... was that "the best possible" history for the Indian Bolio bloodline ... or was an even better history taken, and not realized, simply because Indian Sonny had better-bred brood bitches to use than what Pat Patrick had available? :shocked:

If the Clouse dogs "can't compete today," in their pure form, while the Eli dogs still can, and if the majority of Patrick's bloodline has basically deteriorated the way of their shared Clouse ancestry ... I know which I would rather continue on with, if I were given the choice.

I also know for a fact that Eli/Carver and Eli/Bolio dogs tend to make it higher-up the win column than do pure Clouse dogs as well as pure Bolio/Clouse dogs. This is a fact that can be seen, both with the benefit of hindsight, and with the ability to crunch the statistical data that we have here in this database.

Both versions have produced winners. Both versions have produced Champions. Both versions have produced Grand Champions. However, when you start clicking our Bulldog Statistics Feature ... and you really start looking at the highest level possible 7x, 8x, and 9x+ winners ... you will repeatedly find Bolio/Eli or other Carver/Eli combinations, not Bolio/Clouse or Bolio/Tombstone combinations (with the exception of Buck, who had Zebo in there).

Therefore, realizing this ... and realizing that Eli and Eli/Carver combinations are the most consistent ULTRA-high achievers ... that are able to go beyond mere 5xWs ... what would you do if you had to choose which way to breed Bolio as your own stud dog? To Sonny's Eli/Carver & Corvino bitches or to Pat Patrick's Clouse-type bitches ... and which version would you rather get a linebred specimen from?

Jack

Since this is an opinion post, I'm not a breeder nor a Patrick/Sonny historian, I will chime in on what I have seen or owned.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=42272

This was an extremely talented, as game as they come and could flat shut it down. He won two but had one of the gamest scratches I have ever seen. Most "Bolio bred Patrick dogs" are not really know for mouth. This Kasai male consistently threw a boat load of mouth to everything he was bred to. Granted most were crosses, and the bottom half had some biters but he elevated the mouth of everything he was bred to.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=12915

Same with this male. Both he and his sister could flat shut it down. (A more recognizable name like Tarheel Matt can attest). I have never seen a dog that flat enjoyed his profession like Cornbread enjoyed his. His sister was like him but more talented.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=41369

This is a dog that if all his tools were graded none would be considered exceptional. He did everything well just not outstanding. His best attribute was he would stay between a dog's eyes for as long as it took. 2 minutes, 2 hours, or 2 days. All the same to him. We ended up will all of the litter except 1 all of ours were match dogs.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=41364

This dog developed bad habits after his career got going. 1st one was impressive and the second was done without a full compliment of hardware.

If I had to make a call I think I would lean toward the dogs off Bolio would have been better with Sonny but at the same time they would have not been as accessible. Basically odds are, and just going on odds, if Sonny ends up with Bolio I never get to own any of these dogs above. Since Patrick did, I was able to stand on top of them. If that makes sense.

Sort of fence riding but I don't see Sonny inbreeding the dog and spreading the offspring all over like Patrick did. I see one making better match dogs and preventing me from having that chapter and the other making it possible thru accessibility.
Sorry if I babbled. RWO

That's the rub, I guess: would they be available?

We already know Sonny would inbreed Bolio back to a 3/8ths daughter of his (as he did with Indian Pups), so the questions that remain are: 1) which was better for the breed (really, fancy)? versus 2) which would have created the stronger line?

There is no question that, as it happened, Bolio's influence went further and wider, under Pat's breeding program, than it would have under Sonny's ... but my question is, which would be the stronger family, NOW?

I think that, structure-wise, and the ability to stay competitive as a pure line, I would personally prefer the way Sonny was breeding his dogs.

Jack

PS: There is a lot of "non-Bolio" blood "papered as Bolio" in the topside of your pedigrees ;)

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings. In time the argument would then be which family was carrying the other, but that would be an entirely different topic.

How a dog is papered has never really carried a lot of weight with me, or the guy that turned me onto the dogs. Fake papers are easily 'corrected' with high standards and consistent selection, i.e., Hammer and Rueben.

EWO

I'm thinking from Indian Sonny the line would be a lot more of 50% Bolio dogs winning a bunch of matches. Over time I think there would be less "pure Bolio" dogs (and I will take the Patrick's versions as accurate for this series of posts).

Not being an expert on Sonny but from the outside looking it his breedings looked like he was trying to get to the box with each breeding. The Patrick versions looked like it was dogs being bred to make dogs to make dogs....or even dogs bred to make dogs to be sold in order to make dogs for the box by others. If that made sense.

Still fence riding. If Sonny has Bolio more winning dogs would have come from Bolio and more wins from grandkids. Pat put them in more hands. Bolio-Redboy, Jeep-Bolio, Snooty-Bolio, Buck dogs in many versions, the list goes on. I think the family would have been better off with Sonny in possession but the game end up better thru accessibility.
EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings.

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We agree.

More importantly, as we get more evolved as dogmen, we can hold HOW a dog wins to a higher standard :idea:

Do we want clubfighter level wins?
Do we want dogs that win, but can't be matched afterward?
Do we want dogs that win like Floyd Mayweather?
Or do we want dogs that win like a prime Chavez and Duran? :twisted:

The dogs Patrick was producing, for the most part, were excellent 1-3xWs, and his Grand Champions were nothing out of the ordinary (save Buck).

There are no Clouse dogs EVER beating multiple Champions that I know of ... nor could Tombstone have won more than a couple before he, too, had to be retired ... but MANY combinations of Eli- and Eli/Carver-type dogs have done this.

If we are going to "raise the bar" as we progress as dogmen, are we going to be satisfied only producing "average, competitive" dogs? I look back on my own record as a breeder, and I had an extremely high level of success "winning" (or "losing extremely game") ... sometimes over some pretty good dogs/dogmen ... but NONE of the dogs I bred personally were devastating 7xW type dogs in elite competition.

Now, I bred a dog that beat a 6xW and another that beat a 5xW ... and quite a few beat Champions ... but these dogs from me, themselves, never made it passed 1 and 2. Good dogs, yes. Truly elite? No. I am just being honest.

My dogs have produced about 10 dogs that made Gr Ch, only 2 of which won more than 5, both of which had Eli influence, not Clouse, not RBJ, nothing :idea:

Zukill (6xW) had a pinch of Chinaman; Jigilu (9xW) was a straight Eli/Carver cross. Zukill had no cutters and yet still killed everything between :19 and :48 ... and no dog made it passed :42 with Jigilu. And the funny thing is, my dogs were almost never crossed with either Chinaman or Eli-type dogs, and yet the times they were there were superstars.

Another such cross was Jackson's 45. Although only a common 2xW, his wins were BOTH DOA, in :17 and :19, from holds on the back of the head. While Andy Capp flat-killed only 1 dog in 5 fights, by taking it out with 1 crushing skull hold, Jackson's 45 killed 2 for 2 that way, and in a lot quicker times than Andy Capp did. Nobody wanted anything to do with 45 after he won his second fight & had yet another opponent twitching like a chicken on the pit floor, from a second fatal head hold in just a few minutes :shocked:

MOK, who bred the dog along with Jackpot Kennels, was a close friend of BBC (who campaigned Gr Ch Amboss, Ch Bullet, Gr Ch Psycho, etc.) MOK saw all these dogs' matches, and was around some pretty good dogs in his day, and he said none of them could stand up to 45. He was lighting fast, a wizard on defense, and killed 2 dogs stone dead with head holds, without getting bit back.

That kind of POWER is just not going to happen with "Bolio/Clouse" blood :idea:

Bolio/Clouse blood will produce game, slick, talented, wonderful dogs fully capable "of winning" ... maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 3-5 ... but if you want to be able to kill multiple dogs AND/OR win 7, 8, 9x ... you are going to need Eli blood in there (for the most part).

So my point is, I have ALWAYS been a fan of "game, tough, smart" ... in high percentages ... but as I sit back and review history, my own dogs, as well as the dogs of others, and (with the benefit of this database) I am able to crunch the numbers, look at the recipes, and "think out loud" ... I can honestly say I wish I would have gotten a hold of some linebred Indian Sonny-type dogs early in my career, and bred them to Poncho/Missy, as Cates' Rambo was bred by Mr. Nice Guy to their sister Ruby. I wish I would have added this kind of blood to my mix, for a lot of reasons, but MOSTLY to add the kind of elite-level power that some of these other lines have.

Don't get me wrong, I love my line, and they have STOPPED any number of Eli-type dogs in the past, and I would bet on my percentages over them any day of the week. But sometimes the best solution isn't "either/or" ... sometimes it's BOTH.

I don't think I could possibly improve on my "percentage win record" ... but what I most definitely could have improved upon was the ability of my dogs to FUBAR something, right away, AND still keep their gameness ... if I would have incorporated the right blends of more Indian Sonny-type blood (or any high-quality Eli or Chinaman blood) and "less" extra helpings of Patrick-type Bolio/Clouse blood.

JMHO,

Jack

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

We agree.

More importantly, as we get more evolved as dogmen, we can hold HOW a dog wins to a higher standard :idea:

Do we want clubfighter level wins?
Do we want dogs that win, but can't be matched afterward?
Do we want dogs that win like Floyd Mayweather?
Or do we want dogs that win like a prime Chavez and Duran? :twisted:

The dogs Patrick was producing, for the most part, we excellent 1-3xWs, and his Grand Champions were nothing out of the ordinary (save Buck).

There are no Clouse dogs EVER beating multiple Champions that I know of ... nor could Tombstone have won more than a couple before he, too, had to be retired ... but MANY combinations of Eli- and Eli/Carver-type dogs have done this.

If we are going to "raise the bar" as we progress as dogmen, are we going to be satisfied only producing "average, competitive" dogs? I look back on my own record as a breeder, and I had an extremely high level of success "winning" (or "losing extremely game") ... sometimes over some pretty good dogs/dogmen ... but NONE of the dogs I bred personally were devastating 7xW type dogs in elite competition.

Now, I bred a dog that beat a 6xW and another that beat a 5xW ... and quite a few beat Champions ... but these dogs from me, themselves, never made it passed 1 and 2. Good dogs, yes. Truly elite? No. I am just being honest.

My dogs have produced about 10 dogs that made Gr Ch, only 2 of which won more than 5, both of which had Eli influence, not Clouse, not RBJ, nothing :idea:

Zukill (6xW) had a pinch of Chinaman; Jigilu (9xW) was a straight Eli/Carver cross. Zukill had no cutters and yet still killed everything between :19 and :48 ... and no dog made it passed :42 with Jigilu. And the funny thing is, my dogs were almost never crossed with either Chinaman or Eli-type dogs, and yet the times they were there were superstars.

Another such cross was Jackson's 45. Although only a common 2xW, his wins were BOTH DOA, in :17 and :19, from holds on the back of the head. While Andy Capp flat-killed only 1 dog in 5 fights, by taking it out with 1 crushing skull hold, Jackson's 45 killed 2 for 2 that way, and in a lot quicker times than Andy Capp did. Nobody wanted anything to do with 45 after he won his second fight & had yet another opponent twitching like a chicken on the pit floor, from a second fatal head hold in just a few minutes :shocked:

MOK, who bred the dog along with Jackpot Kennels, was a close friend of BBC (who campaigned Gr Ch Amboss, Ch Bullet, Gr Ch Psycho, etc.) MOK saw all these dogs' matches, and was around some pretty good dogs in his day, and he said none of them could stand up to 45. He was lighting fast, a wizard on defense, and killed 2 dogs stone dead with head holds, without getting bit back.

That kind of POWER is just not going to happen with "Bolio/Clouse" blood :idea:

Bolio/Clouse blood will produce game, slick, talented, wonderful dogs fully capable "of winning" ... maybe 1, maybe 2, maybe 3-5 ... but if you want to be able to kill multiple dogs AND/OR win 7, 8, 9x ... you are going to need Eli blood in there (for the most part).

So my point is, I have ALWAYS been a fan of "game, tough, smart" ... in high percentages ... but as I sit back and review history, my own dogs, as well as the dogs of others, and (with the benefit of this database) I am able to crunch the numbers, look at the recipes, and "think out loud" ... I can honestly say I wish I would have gotten a hold of some linebred Indian Sonny-type dogs early in my career, and bred them to Poncho/Missy, as Cates' Rambo was bred by Mr. Nice Guy to their sister Ruby. I wish I would have added this kind of blood to my mix, for a lot of reasons, but MOSTLY to add the kind of elite-level power that some of these other lines have.

Don't get me wrong, I love my line, and they have STOPPED any number of Eli-type dogs in the past, and I would bet on my percentages over them any day of the week. But sometimes the best solution isn't "either/or" ... sometimes it's BOTH.

I don't think I could possibly improve on my "percentage win record" ... but what I most definitely could have improved upon was the ability of my dogs to FUBAR something, right away, AND still keep their gameness ... if I would have incorporated the right blends of more Indian Sonny-type blood (or any high-quality Eli or Chinaman blood) and "less" extra helpings of Patrick-type Bolio/Clouse blood.

JMHO,

Jack

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So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

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Originally Posted by MOSES

So, I have to ask, did you see the 45 dog? Did you see any of the Bullet dogs or Amboss?

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No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

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Originally Posted by apeman

I agree that Indian Sonny was doing the better/more interesting breedings with Bolio. However, I do not think they would have made any more of an impact then Sonny's dogs did in our actual historic timeline. I think they would be a private pocket of bad ass dogs that got out to other groups here and there.

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Well said, agree.

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Originally Posted by apeman

On the flip side, what direction would Patrick have gone in if he never acquired Bolio? When I ponder this question I take into consideration the opinion of The Old Trucker, who was a partner of Pat in the early 70's. It was The Old Trucker's opinion that though Bolio probably would have Most likely KIB Tombstone the best decision Pat made was to breed to Tombstone and to acquire other dogs from Maloney. He believed the Maloney dogs added durability and gameness that carried those dogs over into the next couple decades.

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I agree with this, and it's an interesting twist to take the dialogue. Again, I have nothing but respect for the Maloney dogs, etc., but to me they are just AVERAGE (but tough, game) dogs. I do not see any world beaters coming from the Maloney dogs, just high-percentages of dependable, super-game dogs that (ironically) can sometimes outlast and beat a world beater, though they themselves will never become one, so there's the rub :)

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Originally Posted by apeman

With that said, I believe Pat would have bred the balls off of Keno, Tombstone, and Chico man. As well as added more dogs into his program such as Ruben, Luther, and Satch. I think the outcome would be dogs similar to Robert T and other dogs we've seen off the Maloney/Carver, Maloney/Eli/Carver blends except there would be a massive amount of those dogs world wide. Furthermore, if you factor in Patrick still adding any bolio and/or Noe Regrets dogs he could get his hands on we'd see some interesting things.

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I think Patrick clearly had good taste in dogs, as he also owned the Tater dog ... who, he says, was stolen by Indian Sonny and given back to Bert Clouse ... who matched the dog old and let him die. So, without Tater, Pat only legitimately had Tombstone as a stud, and illicitly Reuben (breeding him without telling anyone). Patrick got his fame as a breeder via Bolio (a stolen dog he hung papers on), so historically Pat Patrick is pretty much pond scum compared to his historical peers. Not that every breeder was a saint, I realize this, but I think Pat has to be looked at a little less admirably than men who bred their own great dogs and built a line on them (or who obtained their dogs legitimately).

Getting back to the subject of dogs, and top-shelf blood, I do agree Patrick could have succeeded with Tombstone and Maloney dogs, but not nearly as well. I think the Tombtone dogs were solid, but not as fast or high-ability as Bolio dogs. I do not see anyone dominating anything with pure Maloney dogs. I do not see 6x, 7x, 8xW Maloney dogs as I do Eli/Carver and Eli/Boilio dogs. Together, Bolio and Tombstone dogs created a legacy, but I just think (in hindsight) an even bigger legacy would have been created with the Eli/Carver/Bolio combination (that Sonny had access to) as opposed to the Bolio/Clouse/Tombstone combo Pat used.

Ronald Boyles kind of did this with his dogs, but I honestly never liked the Hank blood (everyone who owned him, sold him), and I just think Sonny's Eli/Bolio dogs were a lot cleaner-bred than Boyles'. Sonny was also well-connected to the best Eli resources on earth, back before there were the tag-alongs, which I feel is important also.

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Originally Posted by apeman

Irregardless Indian Sonny would have a bad ass pocket of dogs we'd salivate at owning. Nonetheless, Patrick would mass produce a game yet thicker bone line of dogs that would win game world wide for some and made even better by a few other breeders.

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That is a pretty good assessment, I agree.

Jack

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Originally Posted by EWO

How a dog is papered has never really carried a lot of weight with me, or the guy that turned me onto the dogs. Fake papers are easily 'corrected' with high standards and consistent selection, i.e., Hammer and Rueben.
EWO

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There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud ;)

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Originally Posted by EWO

Agreed. Since we know how things turned out on one side of the equation I will ponder a guess on the other. I would say over time there would have been more winning match dogs from Sonny breeding Bolio. I agree there would be some inbreeding but I would ponder he would breed Bolio that same way he bred the other "Bolio" dogs. The Carver/Corvino/Clause and Eli dogs would be under Bolio and then those dogs back to the Sonny 'Bolio' dogs. I imagine there would have been a lot of winners from those breedings.

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That is exactly what I imagine.

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Originally Posted by EWO

In time the argument would then be which family was carrying the other, but that would be an entirely different topic.

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Well, that is my whole point, really.

The Bolio dogs are pretty much "carrying" the Clouse dogs IMO. They also pretty much carry the Maloney dogs. Do you see a lot of multi-winning "pure" Clouse or Maloney dogs out there? These dogs pretty much need the Bolio dogs to be known. You don't see anyone using pure dogs of these lines, anywhere, and those few individuals who do have them, don't use them. Yes, Tater was a great dog in beating Rastus, but he died his next fight. Patrick's Tuffy won 2. But that was a long, long, long, time ago. Same with Maloney dogs. How many pure Rodger Crabb dogs are out there winning 3-9x, like pure Eli dogs and pure Carver dogs do?

But you do still see the occasional heavy Bolio dogs, like Andy Capp and Amboss, still winning over the best in the game, if the deck is shuffled just right. Which again is my whole point. If Bolio had been consistently crossed with truly badass stock, you would be seeing multi-winners from the line a whole lot more.

The very fact that you can MAKE the argument, who was carrying whom?, in an Eli/Bolio merging underscores the power of my point here :mrgreen:

The very fact both pure Eli dogs, and pure Carver dogs, are repeatedly and consistently able to make Champions and Grand Champions, on their own, IS my point :idea:

Because you would be merging an amazing athlete in Bolio, with amazing power in the Eli dogs, with a 1/4 shot of amazing gameness/durability of the Corvino dogs ... rather than merging an amazing athlete with ordinary game dogs, with structural problems inherent in the line, as in the Clouse dogs ... with more game dogs in the Tombstone line. In other words, there is nothing really extraordinary about either the Maloney dogs or the Clouse dogs on their own ... they actually brought Bolio down IMO. (Or, he raised their ability, however you want to look at it.)

The entire thrust of my thread is the fact that Bolio would be merging the athleticism he brought with the brute power of the Eli dogs (who can win and become Gr Ch on their own, pure), and I think replicated over time, you would come out with much, much more capable animals, and much more frequently.

That is my belief at any rate.

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

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Originally Posted by MISTER

My question has always been if Sonny knew who took/had his dog then why didn't he go retrieve him? A dog of that caliber, performance and production wasn't retrieved by his rightful owner just boggles my mind. And how was Patrick still so highly praised when the entire world knew his entire yard/existence was built off pure fuckery

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According to Patrick, he stole Bolio from Indian Sonny because Sonny stole Tater from Patrick first, and shipped him back to Bert Clouse (who matched the dog again and lost him). So maybe Sonny knew he "deserved" the retaliation.

Another reason could also be because Pat's yard was a fortress. If you've ever been there, Pat's property was surrounded by chain/barbwire, with 120 bulldogs chained inside, with 4 to 5 150-lb Fila Brasileiros wandering loose, ensuring no one could "sneak in" without the entire yard resounding with dog barks ... followed by attacks from multiple loose enormous guard dogs ... with Patrick living in his trailer with a high-powered rifle propped-up at each window. Not the kind of setting to provide "an advantage" to any intruder. (Remember, when Patrick finally got raided, they had to drive over his fence with Swat Team vehicles to gain access.)

But, yeah, on the rest :embarrassed:

Also, really look at the pedigree of Patrick's Tater.

His topside is bred a lot like Eli/Carver dogs (who tend to be heavy Dibo and Williams mixes).

Allen's Redman (Tater's sire) is Tater's father ... who was sited by Ritcheson's Jerry, Dibo's brother. He was bred to a heavy Williams bitch in Ritcheson's Kitty, like Black Widow, which is 1/4 Tudor's Jeff, a devastating son of Dibo.

So, again, that is where the power of Tater was coming from, IMO. His topside was very similar to the Eli/BlackWidow blood he was facing.

Eli was inbred Blind Billy (100% Dibo/AZ Pete/Bambi), while Black Widow was 1/4 Dibo, 3/4 Williams blood. That exact same pure-Dibo over Williams-1/4-Dibo combination is behind the Eli/Carver BEST crosses. This combo has been a mainstay in the very best, multi-winningest dogs in the the sport.

Look at the pedigrees and see if you agree that is also where Tater's power came from ... the same basic combo on his topside: Dibo/AZ Pete's brother (Ritcheson's Jerry) was bred to a 3/4 Williams, 1/4 Dibo bitch (in Ritcheson's Kitty) ... to produce Tater's sire, Allen's Redman.

The Clouse blood on the bottom of tater, Clouse's Red Brandy, was an exceptionally-clean "Clouse fantasy" breeding too. There is no denying this: 68.75% Ch Staber/25% Ch Big Boy/12.5% Ch Butcher Boy ... but, in the end, Patrick's Tater only had 1 win in him.

I just think the ONLY version of these dogs, still winning and still producing MULTI-winners, today, is the Eli/Carver combination :idea:

Eli dogs (linebred on Dibo) and the Ironhead/Black Widow Carver combiniations. (Interesting that Ironhead, Carver's expressly-stated favorite dog, is a 50% Dibo/Az Pete, 35% Black Widow combo, with an extra 12.5% shot of Gr Ch Rascal, Dibo's half-brother) ... essentially 62.5% the same blood as Eli, 35% Black Widow.

These dogs are where the true super-stars are coming from ...

That is the way I see things, at any rate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

No, but what difference does that make?

I just explained that MOK did.

MOK is not an exaggerator, and has bred/shown enough winners (and been around enough top shelf dogs LIKE Amboss and the others I just finished describing) to have his opinion matter to me.

And he was not the only one saying these things either.

Jack

PS: And let me also add that, aside from BBC, MOK is personal friends with Al White, Junior Bush (Crenshaw's mentor), and his uncle was Drew Favre (as in Favre's Luke), just to name a few, so he is not just some guy online with 'a cool internet avatar' (like some people). MOK is a second generation dogman with some pretty solid contacts.

---

Jack,

I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don�t make excuses for any of them. They aren�t �breeders� because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I�ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don�t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn�t mean we don�t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn�t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

Jack,
I know them all, as well as the back story. Not taking anything from MOK at all, one of my best dogs came off his yard. I know all the people that you are talking about as well as the dogs. I asked did you see the dog or dogs, your response was no.

---

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you? :shocked:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

MOK and BBC work and shows the dogs, and don’t make excuses for any of them. They aren’t “breeders” because they want to sell dogs. Point is MOK and BBC went their separate ways, and everybody landed on their feet. Plenty of things were said by both, and I’ll leave it at that. I have enough respect for them as men to leave their business between them.

---

Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all :idea:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

PS: That just some internet guy with the "cool internet avatar", has more loses than some people have in dogs that they have matched period! He has been around long enough to know what is up from down. Don’t get it crossed up, just because I am not screaming from the mountain top doesn’t mean we don’t make noise. We just took a little break, kind of like you not selling dogs anymore.

---

Okay, fair enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

I am not hard to find at all, like you said MOK has the contacts, feel free to make that call. I am not about all the talking! That avatar doesn’t belong to some kid that just got off the bus.

---

OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass :rolleyes:

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

Now, how do you REALY want to carry it? Come get to know me, I promise I am kool. Win or loose I still have my day job, but we'll iron a few things out.

---

Are you trying to scare me? :lol: :rolleyes:

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EWO

This was an extremely talented, as game as they come and could flat shut it down. He won two but had one of the gamest scratches I have ever seen. Most "Bolio bred Patrick dogs" are not really know for mouth. This Kasai male consistently threw a boat load of mouth to everything he was bred to. Granted most were crosses, and the bottom half had some biters but he elevated the mouth of everything he was bred to.

---

You mention you don't care about pedigrees, but I posted Kasai's photograph to make (yet another) point about TRUTH in breeding.

Most members are familiar with my article The Truth on Mason's Ch Hammer. (It is recommended that any newcomer read this article first.)

Your dog, Patrick's Kasai, only serves to reinforce my article. The truth is, Cheryl Tiegs' true pedigree makes her bred almost like my Missy bitch, as Tessy was really Ch Hammer's sister from the first breeding.

If you change Kasai's pedigree to read as it should, you would see that (including Ch Bobby Jr., who is Hammer's half-brother, also off Reuben) Kasai is 25% Ch Hammer blood ... and therefore a veritable cousin to any of my Poncho/Missy/Ruby direct offspring.

These dogs are not true "Bolio dogs" ... but more Bolio/Carver dogs. This is another reason why my dogs went 5-0 against Patrick's "purebred" beauties, the Carver influence. It is the same reason Kasai produces on another level from the typical "new era" Bolio dog ... the addition of true Carver blood, through Reuben, at 3 different points in his pedigree. Patrick's Tessy is actually Reuben/Blitz (pure Carver). Bobby Jr. is also off of Reuben. Patrick linebred on Rick Rude and Black Beauty for a reason is Kasai ... he knows this and integrated them ... and it is also why these dogs were more expensive than his (fruitless) "Pinhead" type dogs.

Anyway, it may not matter to you, but IMO Kasai looks more like a Hammer dog than a typical Bolio dog ... and that is because he carries 1/4 "Hammer's siblings" in his pedigree :)

As someone who has run the line for nearly 3 decades, and spent thousands with Patrick, the Hammer dogs are simply tougher, gamer, scrappier dogs than the truly "pure Bolio dogs" Pat had (that didn't have Hammer). And, if you ask Pat, Cheryl Tiegs was his best bitch the last 25 years.

Jack

PS: Only the second brood bitch I ever bought, back in 1990, was a direct daughter of Cheryl Tiegs, named Rio, whom I bred to Truman. (The pedigree shows the ADBA breeding of Rio, not her true breeding.) Anyway, Rio didn't take after Tiegs at all, but one of my earliest breedings after that was to breed a daughter of Truman/Rio to Rick Rude (specifically to focus on Cheryl Tiegs to bring that out again) ... which produced (Dream Killer's Cuervo) ... who beat HOE in over an hour-twenty. So I've been pretty familiar with the Cheryl Tiegs/Hammer blood for a very long time now :)

Hey Jack if you dont mind, do you think the same results would take place if you replace the Bolio dog and used sorrells bull? I mean they both were out of Zeke or did they just produce different types of dogs? Also i'am no expert on the sorrell line but Zeke/Eli/Corvino was the base for the line right. thank you

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bigfoot23

Hey Jack if you dont mind, do you think the same results would take place if you replace the Bolio dog and used sorrells bull? I mean they both were out of Zeke or did they just produce different types of dogs? Also i'am no expert on the sorrell line but Zeke/Eli/Corvino was the base for the line right. thank you

---

Koehler's Bull (aka: Sorrells' Bull) was actually out of Bolio's sister (Daisy was Zeke/Goldie) bred back to Zeke, making Bull a 3/4 Klaus' Zeke bred dog.

I never saw the dog, but I heard he was cold. Still, he was an impressive physical specimen and a 3/4 Zeke dog. When I spoke to him, Pat Patrick did not even know that it was from Klaus' (Hernandez') Ch Zeke 4xW that Bolio got his head-fighting ability, as many rated Bolio's daddy Zeke as the finest head dog of his day.

Therefore, even though he was cold, I would say that Koehler's Bull would be an excellent stud dog to use, and would likely be a high-percentage producer (as his production record reflects). In fact, there were two Grand Champions off of Bull bred to Carver/Corvino-type bitches, that were behind Sorrells' foundation dogs.

Jack

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Then why did you ask me the question, if you already knew the answer?

If you don't like MOK's opinion, I could care less.

However, if one of your own best dogs came from MOK, then ask yourself ... did one of his best dogs came from you? :shocked:





Okay, so what?

If you know MOK and all the ones mentioned are the real deal, and don't make excuses, then sit down and STFU when I relay the honest opinion of MOK.

Did you see 45 go? If so, speak up.
If not, again, sit down and STFU.
This is my story not yours.
If you actually saw 45 go, and you actually have a relevant opinion, then you are welcome to provide an input.

However, if you just want to "make noise," because you're a fan of some dogs and are surprised to hear a man has an opinion that A particular dog would have killed them ... but you have no insight of your own to provide ... again, STFU, your opinion is irrelevant.

All I know is MOK has always been honest, and real, with me as far as dog quality goes.
I also know for a fact he was involved with all parties, and directly saw all the dogs mentioned go.
All "you" know is the same AND that he sold you one of your best dogs.

So, if that is all you know, and you didn't see 45 go, then (as I said) sit down and STFU.

Everyone whom I have *ever* talked to, who actually saw the dog go, did nothing but RAVE about Jackson's 45 ... so my best guess is you NEVER saw the dog go, to be doubting him at all :idea:





Okay, fair enough.





OMG, more internet challenges from yet another dumbass :rolleyes:

Buddy, here is something you need to understand: I am not "looking for you" at all ... you don't mean shit to me.

You questioned whether "I saw all the dogs," which I never claimed to have done, but I *DID* cite my source, which makes your question a waste of my fogging time.

I don't care if you got off the bus yesterday, or 10 years ago, NOTHING will change THE FACT Jackson's 45 DOA'd 2 dogs, in :17 and :19 respectively, and "the guy who saw ALL the dogs mentioned" go ... AND who "sold you one of your best dogs" ... DIRECTLY TOLD ME that 45 was at a totally different level and as close to an unbeatable dog as he has seen in all his years in dogs.

That's it.





Are you trying to scare me? :lol: :rolleyes:

Buddy, my dogs have beaten FAR bigger fish than you, and I haven't bred dogs for 3 years. MOK has no more dogs.

Your "challenge" is therefore nothing but internet stupidity ... all because I relayed "an opinion" of a man you also know is legit.

Now, as far as this debate goes, I will "carry it on" with you forever .. or toss your dumb ass out on your ear ... unless you SHUT TF UP ... or ... give a first-hand account of what you SAW of 45.

If you actually saw 45 go, as well as the other dogs mentioned (Amboss, Bullett, and Psycho) ... AND if you have a legitimate differing opinion ... then you are welcome to disagree with MOK's assessment. No problemo.

However, if you didn't actually see 45, and the other dogs mentioned ... which makes all the noise you're making here a wasting my fogging time with a bunch of lip ... then go back to my STFU directive.

Because, as far as being "cool," you seem to be more of a doubter, and cheerleader, than anything I would consider cool.

MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.

Deal with it,

Jack

---

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.
The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box. You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

“MOK, on the other hand, has never been a cheerleader, and thought the world of ALL the dogs mentioned, but he was just that impressed with 45 by comparison.”
I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.

There is a difference between how a dog is "papered" vs. how a dog is bred.

How a dog is actually bred is quite relevant IMO ... which can explain a lot, including the mouth of your stud

A couple of points. He was not my dog but that of a friend. But I did try to land something off of him every chance I had.

I agree knowing how a dog is bred is a lot different. Looking back if you knew what you know now would your breeding plans or selection process been any different? Hindsight being 20/20 I would say you would have made some different decisions for no more reason than you would have more information at your disposal. But at the same time I am thinking breeding your dogs 'kinda sorta turned out' with Hammer as the source.

So I definitely agree there is a difference and either can be corrected with selection and due diligence. One just will take a little longer than the other.

Good series of posts. Great topic. Lots of insight. EWO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

Pause! Na Jack I am not a cheerleader, talker, or a scary guy at all, but you are not going to slide your slick shit this way at all.
I know MOK liked the dog; he tried to put me onto the Diamond Dude dog. Early, it just was not my thing. I have passed on a lot of good dogs, sold my share of winners and dogs that ended up at stud on a number of yards.

---

Thanks for the background.

Your mistake on not taking Diamond Dude dogs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

So to answer your directly, No. MOK did not get dogs from me, we both got dogs from BBC and most of those dogs came from Mr. Cooper and Coleman who I also know. I have no shame in admitting that at all! In fact Mr. Cooper was the one that told me about the Ruben dogs over 15 years ago and Coleman is the one that put me onto the Bullet dogs.

---

Very interesting. Would be curious what Cooper had to say to you about the Reuben dogs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

Understanding how things go with relationships, in the dogs. That’s not STFU, that was a question, because I didn’t see the 45 dog, hence to question.
I can appreciate a good dog, period! If the 45 dog was one of those dogs GREAT, I am not hating at all. In fact I was glad for him. I considered MOK and BBC both to be friends, I could care less what they were feeding. BBC had a lot of dogs to choose from not just Bullet dogs and I never thought they nor MOK were kennel blind.
It was a house that was divided and they had their issues, but I have never chose sides in any of that. I am sure you can understand that.
Yes this is your “story”, and more over it’s your board, so till your “story”. I am not worried about you booting me off the board, that is your prerogative, do what you think is best.

---

I don't want to boot you off at all; it looks like I made a mistake as to the intent of your post and for that I apologize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

That isn’t an internet challenge Jack, it was an invitation. As for dumbass, PLEASE, Jack come on! If I have managed to stay off your radar, than it means that things are in order and I am far smarter than you think. Furthermore, I have NEVER had to rely on these dogs to pay a single bill or shed a tear about a dime I have left on the table. I might be a lot of things but I am far from a “dumbass”.

---

It looks like I might be the dumbass then, yet again :lol:

Honestly, I am extremely irritable with "the typical" kinds of questions/responses people give.

In this case, it looks like I @$$-umed you were doubting the dog, asking me "if I had seen it" (knowing I had not), just to cast doubt on him.

That kind of thing I find annoying as $#!^, so I mistook your simple question for something it was not, so again I will apologize and retract my statements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

I shouldn’t “mean shit” to you, get your emotion under control. Hell I don’t know you from Adam, but it won’t stop me from saying you have bred some good dogs. What I know to be general excepted is you are a pompous and arrogant, and that’s even ok with me.

---

What I am is extremely irritable, by nature.

I have no tolerance for dumb questions, or setup questions (designed to do nothing but detract), and I tend to go off on people who do this.

Unfortunately, sometimes I misread the intent of the poster, and make a complete ass of myself :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

The issue comes when you want to question who or what I am. It really isn’t that hard to iron it all out as men, that’s what “how you really want to carry it” means. It can be a phone call, 10 lbs of chicken, or we can do what we know, and really break bread. Now if that was out of line, I’d say perhaps, I would agree. If you don’t know me that is one thing, perhaps you should have asked a few more questions rather than jump on the soap box.

---

Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

You haven’t bred dogs in three years and they have bigger fish to fry. Ok, I won’t even speak on it, LMFAO, I know better!

---

You are the one who misread this time.

I said I haven't bred dogs in 3 years, and (you can laugh all you want) but my dogs HAVE defeated much bigger fish than you, and dozens of times too.

PM me who you are. We seem to know all the same people down there.

You were getting dogs from MOK and BBC ... while MOK's best stud he bought from me ... and BBC bought 5 dogs from me.

Let me help you with the hierarchical interpretation here: "you" are buying dogs from folks who were buying dogs from me ... where do you think that puts "you" on the totem pole ;)

Now, let's do some more math here: the ONE dog MOK bought from me, Diamond Dude, proved to be falling-down game and one of THE most influential stud dogs MOK ever had.
And, of the 5 dogs BBC bought from me, 4 out of 5 proved game as shit, even by his severe standards.

Because of the fucked up things BBC did to Pup Pup and Super Red, BBC had to sneak through the back door (and send someone else) to buy U-Nhan-Rha and Salsa from me, when I was getting out, because I refused to sell him a dog after the way he did Pup Pup and Super Red. (If you know the story, you know BBC put these game little dogs WAYYY uphill, permanently disfiguring both of them, Puppy losing his leg, and Super Red losing her bottom jaw, but he could never stop them :idea:).

BBC called me years later, speaking nothing but Praise of U-Nhan-Rha, who passed every test he put on him (after going an hour, twice, on my yard), and saying he was out-fighting younger dogs, even with no teeth left as an elder dog. U-ey produced many winners for BBC as well, before he died of cancer.

So don't you ever laugh at the quality of my dogs again.
I have bred more winners and 100% DG dogs in any 6-month period, when I was breeding, than you ever have in your life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

Understand that I’ll respect you as a man as long as that respect is reciprocated. Come at me sideways with the bullshit and I can shelf the nice guy shit also, and make personal. My heart isn’t on my sleeve, and I have had the same number for well over 20 years now.

---

I will respect you, up to a point. And, sorry, having the same phone number for 20 years doesn't quite get me there :lol:

Let me know who you are by PM, tell me something about the level of dogs you've put out there, the TRUE effort and contributions you've made, and I will respect you more and more.

But show me a nothing record, or just tell me about "people you know," and that won't bring out too much admiration from me, sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOSES

I have ZERO issue with that at all, like I said MOK had some damn good dogs.

---

Yes, I know MOK had, bred, and was around damned good dogs all his life. That is what I said to begin with.

And, as I said, he felt Jackson's 45 was that good.

Jack

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I never saw 45 go though he wasn't far from me. I know where he was, and I know that most of the people in that area weren't what I'd call top shelf competition. That being said, it doesn't take away from what 45 did. It just would've been nice for him to do into some dogs people thought more of I guess.

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I really can't comment on that, except to say I heard Jackson's 45 was with hoodrats, essentially. That was his problem: in the hands of undesirables and he had a freakishly-devastaing mouth. Who wants to go into either?

No, the circumstances of 45's ownership didn't take away from his abilities at all, but it DID take away from the potential of his achievements. Still, I don't care "who" owns a dog ... dogs just don't DOA other dogs on the head, twice in a row, unless they're being rolled with dogs 1/8th their size--or unless they are a freak. That is something an adult can do to a puppy, but seldom to another adult its own size. If a dog DOAs another dog on the head, ONCE, it's pretty much considered a freak occurrence. Again, Andy Capp did it once, in 5 fights, and he was called "The Mouth of the South" ... yet 45 did it twice in a row, at :17 and :19, in front of legit dog dudes, and that is a freakishly-hard mouth by any yardstick.

I have had head dogs for my whole career and never seen that once.
The only "fast DOAs" I have ever seen were throat dogs, cutting off the air.

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself ;)

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I saw Amboss go, and he was an outstanding dog. I did try to hook my Bullet dog into him before he became champion, but we had just beaten BBC not long before then. I don't know if that factored into it or not personally, but I always find those kind of scenarios interesting when they do happen.

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Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

MOK thought very highly of Amboss too and I think was in BBC's camp for all of his matches. Yet, he was never 100% sure he would win any of his shows (which is natural). In fact, MOK told me directly, "No matter how good a dog we have, I am always a little nervous going in ... but I would take 45 into any dog alive, or any dog I have seen, and not be nervous at all."

I never got the impression MOK was lying, or exaggerating; I got the impression he was simply that blown away with a once-in-a-lifetime animal ... that (due to his ability + ownership) never was able to realize his potential.

He said 45 was super-fast, extremely strong, and would not get bit ... and could kill you in less than :20 with his head hold. I am quite sure he couldn't have done that 10x in a row, but his sister (Jackson's Ch Violent) made Champion also, on gameness (she beat The Old Man we both know in 1:53). So the gameness was there too, in the sister at least, and 45 was 10x the physical specimen (and had 10x the mouth) as his game, Champion sister.

My point, is if Jackson's 45 was as game as he was BAD (and he had a license to be, bred like he was), he could have been an immortal in the right hands ... and would have been one helluva tough dog to beat in anyone's hands :shocked:

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I also knew MOK. I've known Jr Bush for over 20 years, along with some of his closest friends from showing dogs back in the 60s. Jr always had one of two things. He either had a top quality dog or he had one of the lowest quality dogs you could think to see, but it never bothered Jr. He just loved doing what he did.

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A lot of guys are like that, just do dogs to do dogs.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

That being said, I also believe that Indian Sonny would've probably made a better quality dog over the years of breeding. But like all who agreed, there would be so many top quality dogs that would've never existed. Even with Pat selling dogs, it's hard to argue with the success he had by breeding those dogs. I've never bought a dog from Pat, and while I've pondered it a time or two, I never really come close to doing so, but I would buy a dog from Indian Sonny if given the chance knowing what I know about his dogs and how he liked his dogs.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

Given the right type of Eli dog, it can add a lot to your program if you're able to keep it going as needed. Being as the dogs I've bred, at this point, are based around the Eli/Redboy/Honeybunch scenario, it's hard to argue with the way those dogs are headed now with the proper molding and breeding decisions. I would be hard pressed to take any Maloney bred dogs over Jasper for any reason.

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I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

This is why I posted what I did, to get people to THINK about their own foundations: if the two lines you're mixing can't stand up as individual, pure lines ... then why use them at all?

Without reiterating what I have already said, even though I had a very good win/loss record as a breeder, if I could go back in time and re-do some of my foundational decisions, I would NOT have used lines/individuals who were not themselves capable of standing alone and winning on their own merits.

The more I think about it, the enemy of THE BEST isn't "the bad" ... it is The GOOD.

People tend to stop when they get something "good" ... and thereby never really achieve THE BEST they can do :idea:

Some lines are never able to achieve anything; they're simply not competitive nor are they bred to be;
Some lines are only able to achieve 0-2xWs, with an occasional VERY RARE Champion (Clouse, Hemphill, etc.);
Some lines are able to achieve 1-3xWs, with the occasional 5xW;

Most people stop there at that level ... and consider that "the best" they can do.
They're able to compete with any other dogmen, so why not stop there?

What I am talking about is, looking back at history, seeing the BEST dogs of all time, performance-wise, and trying to analyze which repeated and consistent combinations (not flukes) were put together to produce them? :idea:

NO ONE can produce all Champions ... or all 5x - 9x winners ... but my point is SOME mixes produce quite a lot of 3x-5xWs ... with (comparatively) frequent 6-8x winners ... as opposed to other combinations ... and these "elite crosses" are almost invariably Eli/Carver crosses of some kind, NOT "Bolio/Clouse" dogs, RBJ dogs, Jeep/Redboy, etc. These are but mid-level achievers, that always seem to lose huge Ch v Ch fights with equal-level Eli/Carver dogs.

Because, almost invariably, it is the Eli- or Eli/Carver combinations of some sort that are the true multi-multi-winners in our sport.

It is a subtle, but perceptible reality that I am just "thinking out loud" about, that's all.

Jack

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

Since we are thinking out loud I have always wondered why certain people stop with certain dogs, especially people I do not know or have no way of asking, understanding it is none of my frikkin' business in the first place.

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.

EWO

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

If you knew where 45 was when he was active, and wanted to see him go into "something you thought more of," you could have always stepped up to the plate yourself ;)

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Rather simple really. I don't fuck with hoodrats, undesirables, etc. I quit doing that years ago simply because it was already a calculated risk doing things with people I knew for years. I certainly wasn't going to risk my livelihood with people I didn't know. I also don't remember the dog's weight now, though I'm sure I did at that point.

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

Most people match dogs to win. If BBC didn't think he could beat your Bullet dog, after losing to him, that would be a good reason not to match, lol

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He didn't lose to Bullet. He lost to Dolly.

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Originally Posted by CA Jack

I have always thought of Eli dogs as "a cur line" and the Bolio-type dogs as "a game line" ... but I realize how simple-minded this is now. Some of the rankest of curs I have ever seen were "pure Bolio dogs" ...

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So did I, and I still do. My foray into that line of dogs did nothing but make that fact even more clear in my mind. Likewise, some of the rankest curs I've seen were Redboy dogs, but given that's what I primarily fed through the years, that's going to happen.

EWO, who knows really. In Buck's case, he was 6 (I believe) when he beat Sandman. He won that in over 3 hours. It was his hardest match, I'm sure, and it was also when he was passed his prime. While I'm confident that Buck could've won more, at that age and all that mileage, what's the point? Sometimes the risk simply isn't worth the reward, especially when you have a dog like a Buck.

I can comment on one particular dog that stopped at 3 instead of going for more. Ch.Beetlejuice came south from Canada and beat McNasty for his championship. McNasty had beaten Juice's brother, in a show prior to Juice's, in close to three hours. So, after he lost to Juice, he contacted the Canadian again about Juice. The Canadian told him that if he wanted Juice again, he'd have to bring Stan the Man into Canada at 42 lbs, and they could do it. Afterall, Juice had come into the states, why not take Stan to Canada? McNasty declined the offer, and that's why Juice only stopped at 3. I'm sure if he would've won his 4th, he would go out for his 5th, but that's all water under the bridge at this point.

I think the truly great competitors that are able to take a dog that far and had the sense to know it, also have the sense to know when it's enough.

For the most part I agree, and no one can really argue once a dog has one five. It is something I have always wondered about.
There is a male up this way, Redboy/RBJ that won two by the time he was 2 1/2, bred early, took a year or so off and then won two more. By the time he won his fourth his first and second litters were winning. The dog was 4 1/2 maybe 5 as a 4XW. They had the dilemma of whether to pursue 5 or even more, or keep his producing. When asked, I really did not have an answer. I could really see both points. EWO

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing. If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

But like you said, and I agree, it's easy to see both points.

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Originally Posted by EWO

Great topics. I think a lot can be said to the owners of the 7-8-9 and 10 time winners as well. They leaned a little more toward the money end of the win, or the benefits of winning vs. prolonging a certain line or a certain dog. A person who is purely selling dogs can use 2XW or CH as one of the more successful marketing tools out there. CH is a huge accomplishment and to the unknowing monumental.

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This is a great point and rebuttal.

I personally think Stormbringer could have won 10 in the right hands, as not a single dog his size could come close to whipping one side of him (many dogs which later sent out there that won over top dogmen).

Still, my "thinking" Stormbringer could win that many isn't the same as his actually winning that many.

In hindsight, since he went sterile, I should have tried to put him with a good conditioner and just let him do his thing.

However, I did what you mention, tried to breed every bitch I had to him ... and lost everything because he stopped producing pups at 4 years of age :lol:

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Originally Posted by EWO

No offense nor disrespect intended, but did STP see something that told him Buck did not have 8-9-10 in him? Did Mr. Bass say Molly Bee had done all she could at 8? If the game is about winning and breeders are breeding to make winners, since Bolio was so exceptional, why did he stop at 1? Wouldn't GRCH Honeybunch look better than 4XW CH Honeybunch?

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With Buck, his last one probably took all the steam out him, going 3+ hours.

I wouldn't match any dog after it did that.

I think Molly got stolen, and I think Honeybunch quit and then was "re-named" on the match report :shocked:

Bolio was exceptional, but I am not sure he was 9xW quality. You can only go 2 hours so many times ...

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Originally Posted by EWO

I have spoken of CH. Angel. She won 3, all RIP. We all asked D. to keep going. We were winning money betting with him and I asked. He says, " I put her down 7 times, 3 RIP in the box, 2 RIP within minutes later, 1 picked up before it became the 6th RIP and your bitch quit". I don't see where she has to do anything else for me". D. was a guy truly, wholeheartedly all about the dogs. The money, the ego, or the notoriety meant nothing to him so I seen his point.
EWO

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Again, I totally see this.

However, the flipside is, these are individual examples :idea:

There will always be "individual examples" of every bloodline ... dogs that someone says "could have" won 9 ... "if only" ...

The point I am making is, despite THOUSANDS of dogs out there, with EVERY line ... and even with due consideration give to all of the random "if only" individual stories that EVERY line faces ... some of these lines actually produce dogs that STILL manage get actual, living 7-, 8-, and 9xW winners ... quite a few in fact ... while others NEVER DO.

So yeah, many people THINK their dog "might have won" 8-10x ... or have legitimate reasons to retire ... but in some lines real, living 7-9xWs never actually happen ... EVER ... whereas in some lines they do happen, several times.

Which brings us right back to my point :idea:

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

I can see both points also, and really, it just comes down to what the owner wants to do more than anything else. Me personally, if a dog is a winner, and somewhere along the way starts producing winners regularly, it's time for the dog producing the winners to just stick to producing.

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That is how I always thought, as a breeder.

However, as sort of an historian since concocting this site, and after crunching the numbers, being involved in a DOY selection ... and spending enough time NOT breeding dogs ... I am starting to think that dogs with the potential ought to have that potential realized.

Also, I am starting to pull my head back far enough from "the trees" of my own bloodline to see the forest of all lines ... and what combinations have produced multi-winners more frequently than others.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

If you're wanting to show dogs, and you have a dog producing those type of dogs, what would be the point of showing him again and possibly ruining what you have going at that moment. That is how I look at that type of scenario. In the same vein, if I were to show a dog and I saw the type of gameness I wanted from the dog, I'd not show him again even if he did win.

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Again, that is how I have always looked at things, from a breeder's standpoint, as well as a "he proved he's a bulldog" standpoint.

Even from a realistic standpoint, a dog that really had to show a lot of gameness is typically shot after that. It's not really fair to make them have to do that again.

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Originally Posted by FrostyPaws

The amount of wins isn't much to me given most things. If the dog is a destroying, generally bad dog with bad intentions, then yeah, I'm probably going to continue showing that dog until I feel the dog has had enough OR the dog shows the bottom end I'm looking for.

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Again, I have always felt this way to an extent.

As a breeder, I didn't need to have Silverback "win" ... I knew he had winning traits. Winning 1 or 10 wasn't going to make his sperm any better.

However, as mentioned, from the point of view (now) as sort of a record-keeper and historian, I wish I would have given him (Stormbringer, Icon, and some others) the chance to go all the way.

Strictly from the standpoint of breeding, I knew all I needed to know to make effective breeding decisions.

However, regarding the history of the sport, and and REALLY seeing if they could take their place in history, and where they'd stand, I didn't even think about that before.

I sure do now ...

Jack

Hey Jack just a quick except, it wasn't Honey that quit and got renamed in match report, it was her son Ch Charlie.. After her last show is when JC bought her to breed her.

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Originally Posted by CrazyRed

Hey Jack just a quick except, it wasn't Honey that quit and got renamed in match report, it was her son Ch Charlie.. After her last show is when JC bought her to breed her.

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Hi;

It may be both. Didn't know about Charlie being renamed.

There were several old-timers in TN who said they were when Honey quit.

I don't know, of course, as I wasn't.

But that is a topic for another thread maybe ;)

Jack

There is an older fellow here in NC who was at Honeybunch's 4th match and swears she was pushed from the corner and the other bitch quit on he turn to go.

Similar thought process with Bolio, on one side of the coin history has told us what happened and the other side of the coin is a 'series of what if's?' What if Sonny had Bolio instead of Patrick? What if Honeybunch was put down after the supposed quit? There would be two very large chapters in the book of dogs that would be missing. And at the same time maybe the two fill-in chapters would have a better story to tell.

Great topic. Great series of posts. The best threads always seem to get off topic and naturally work their way back to the original subject. A lot like conversation. EWO