Top quality canned meat dog food with added supplements in a keep???

Here is another feed subject to ponder over. I have seen this done by Rowell many years back. Did not know if Rowell was using this feed during a pre keep to reduce weight. Are He used the canned dog food meat all the way through the total work program. Yet it might have been a temporary ploy to confuse some of his competitions,ones that wanted to come over every week. To hopefully check out how his dog was progressing. Sure he nipped that in the bud after one too many unnecessary visits. LOL

At that time knowing very little about feeding a dog. I could only wonder that maybe the moisture to protein/fat content would be similar to raw flesh like a wild dog eats. Except it had been cooked. Once again maybe proper enzymes/correct level of fats/greens/etc. could be added to offset what was lost in the cooking process.

Have been told some dog men had used canned/kibble dog food combo to condition a dog for a dog show. Anyone seen this type feed keep used or with added kibble with any success. Cheers

When mixing in the greens and cheeses and supplements I have known a couple who used the canned food to mask those other ingredients so the dog would readily eat them, especially if the supplements were in powder form.

I couldn't say whether it was used more as a source of nutrition or more as the masking agent. That was a long time ago. I would imagine the moisture content would give it a leg up on its same name brand dry food counterpart.

EWO

Ditto EWO. This may be a good way to safely reduce a dog to it's best show weight. I pulled up the nutritional info on this dog canned food called Natural Balance L.I.D. ingredients. This brand is based on Chicken/Chicken Livers and Sweet Potato. Sure there are some much better ones that can be bought. The L.I.D. stands for limited ingredient diets. Was no soy/corn/wheat/dyes etc. in this formula.

The nutrition info on this Natural Balance (L.I.D.) did not give the total caloric per can. Seems I have seen listings of 300 to 400 calories a can on canned dog food from years back.

The crude protein is 5.5% min/fat is 3.5% min/crude fiber is 1.5% max and 78% moisture on this particular brand of canned dog food. Now if the moisture was reduced to 12%. The protein/fat values etc. may show much higher. Use to know this stuff, knowledge long forgotten. LOL

It is a known fact that to increase the endurance of a dog by up to 75%. You have to increase the water to enable the dog to burn more fat. Dogs work cooler and longer off a proper fat energy than excessive carbs. Sometimes people get confused on the water issue from those older dog keeps from the past. To deny or restrict a dog's water intake except around the last 24 to 12 hours IMHO is not a wise thing to do. Especially if dog is on weight.

Where we live maybe a canned dog feed keep may work the best in the hot weather months and a more meat/kibble in the cold months. At the time I saw Rowell using canned dog food, it was in the hot weather months.

Times keep a changing. When I first got into the dog game, many believed Horse meat was the best choice of meat to use. Today we know whole chicken works the over all best with the skin and fat intact. Cheers

I am a young seedling, but have the interest. I believe that human grade raw, is best to feed your Canine athlete, companion,
Big company feed, is far from home. Your human touch and selection is good. If you purchase a company
Food and then feel the need to add to balance, is this not double work, and cost. My best

Things change because it is hard for people to change. Not that statement makes much sense....but here goes.

If the guy that turns me onto dogs is wining with corn flakes and cabbage. And in turn I start winning with corn flakes and cabbage, anyone would be hard pressed to convince me otherwise.

The down the road a guy uses horse meat, canned food, raw chicken, fatty beef, etc. etc. etc. and he beats me then people will sway to his way of thinking. That is how things changes in these dogs because it is not a legal sport.

If it were greyhound racing or sled pulling there are numerous studies out there to point a young guy in the direction of scientifically feeding the canine athlete. The bulldog guy must pick a little from the greyhounds and the sled dogs and factor it to bulldogs. When he does that, and wins, others follow suit. Then we have change.

As far as double work, it depends on where you are coming from. If you use a kibble based diet you must add water. If you use a raw food diet water must be added to ensure hydration. The canned food is mostly water so one may not have to add water.

To have someone point at you and say "Black dog the winner" late on a Saturday night, people want to know what you did, not how hard you worked to get there.

EWO

Ditto EWO, that is so true about all the questions that are asked when specific dog men are on a winning streak. I have listen to dog men ask V.J. questions about how he fed but never how much work was involved in his keep. V.J. had some young marines to help him, V.J. still over saw the AM work, did the majority of the work in the P.M himself.

He gave these persons honest answers,but many would laugh at him and accuse him of telling a tall tale. LOL What many wanted to hear was what was the secret drug keep one was using. They were looking for a lazy man's keep and let the drugs do the winning for them. Never seen any of them win.

When I was with Mr. Teal and Mr. Skinner down in Georgia at a dog show. I went to the concession stand to get a meal before the next event kicked off. Some men walked up to me. Asked me if I knew Mr. Teal real well. I said yes I knew him and Mr. Skinner.

One paid for my meal and they sat down with me while I was enjoying my free eats. One of the men started asking me questions of what Mr. Teal fed his dog and how was he able to pull a dog so tight and keep it's strength.

I grinned and told them how would I know,I was their designated driver. Told them, Mr. Teal was over near the show ring, go ask him. He would be the only person too know that. These fellows departed from me like a New York minute. LOL

I was never sure that Andy Howle had the best feed keep that was used by others. Still he was very consistence and dedicated in his daily working of his dogs. His work method was very similar to what your senior friend was doing along with pulling a weight so far and walking between sessions. Andy beat Bass/Mr. Gainey/Middleton/ and many others. He worked my Young's Face bitch for her two wins. Face was in great shape and strong as a bull.

So yes one has always got to factor in the work ethnic. When I worked that Mr. Clean dog owned by Braddock. Getting up at 05:00 Am, then 8 to ten hours of work that day. Out with the dog till around 12:00 pm.

About two thirds into that eight week keep. Out on a long dark wooded road walking this wonderful dog. I was thinking,this is really a lot of work. I could be making some good overtime money with my company. With all these hours I am putting in. LOL Yet that day Mr. Clean was declared the winning dog over a good dog of Mr. Pratt. It was worth it all. Cheers

Great thread fellas! :D

One of the better conditioned dogs I have ever seen was conditioned by her being on a long heavy chain, a 2lb weight collar and a five gallon bucket of rocks. The only effort she'd give is chasing the Australian Shephard who was chasing the rocks. Most mornings I was calling for a relief pitcher as my elbow and shoulder felt like I was throwing a nine inning game every morning. Turns out it was the easiest keep I ever did. I sat on a bucket while the dog did all the work. She went into 'the beehive' for 61 minutes with a camp and dog that was 'above her paygrade'.

At 61 minutes she was as fresh and full of energy as she was at 10-20 or 30 minutes. The pace was unreal and her physicality was something to see. All in all, by comparison no real effort on my part. I should have sold a video on 'rock chunking conditioning'.

That does not happen a lot. A lot of times when it comes to the art of conditioning, the art is plain and simple hard work.

If a feed plan can get the dog fuled up correctly and it saves a guy a few seconds/minutes a day ( canned food ) it can be a valuable part of the deal. If a person pre-mixes their meals for convenience and time saving, then picking one up off the shelf would be even better. I speak with a 'forked' tongue as in one breath it is all about hard work and the next it is about being a little smarter.

EWO

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Originally Posted by EWO

One of the better conditioned dogs I have ever seen was conditioned by her being on a long heavy chain, a 2lb weight collar and a five gallon bucket of rocks. The only effort she'd give is chasing the Australian Shephard who was chasing the rocks. Most mornings I was calling for a relief pitcher as my elbow and shoulder felt like I was throwing a nine inning game every morning. Turns out it was the easiest keep I ever did. I sat on a bucket while the dog did all the work. She went into 'the beehive' for 61 minutes with a camp and dog that was 'above her paygrade'.

At 61 minutes she was as fresh and full of energy as she was at 10-20 or 30 minutes. The pace was unreal and her physicality was something to see. All in all, by comparison no real effort on my part. I should have sold a video on 'rock chunking conditioning'.

That does not happen a lot. A lot of times when it comes to the art of conditioning, the art is plain and simple hard work.

If a feed plan can get the dog fuled up correctly and it saves a guy a few seconds/minutes a day ( canned food ) it can be a valuable part of the deal. If a person pre-mixes their meals for convenience and time saving, then picking one up off the shelf would be even better. I speak with a 'forked' tongue as in one breath it is all about hard work and the next it is about being a little smarter.

EWO

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EWO agree with everything you said one of my easiest keeps was with a bulldog that was hooked into CH. Mojo a dog associated with some great old timers Mojo beat two CH'S in his first and second outing, the owner after number two, was complaining that nobody would match into Mojo, after hearing this for 20 mins and being young said I would skull drag Mojo with a roll dog with no teeth. O.Stevens said Copperhead you have to take his offer or stay quiet. All I did was sit down stairs on a lawn chair and my wife sat on the bed two floors up and called him up and down the stairs he loved pets and hugs, at One hour 38 mins I have a picture of Mojo laying on his side my dog walked to his crate and got in with no help my feed was 80 % canned 20 % dry nothing else . Mojo was sold over seas not to long after that I also want to say Mojo was a very game bulldog maybe dead game if left in a little longer. Yours in the game Johnny

Your story is similar to mine. Just like mine people would rather hear about an elaborate feed plan, brutal work routines, and supplements/steroids. Simple food and simple work is just that, too simple. Old folks say people will believe the lie far easier than the truth.

Similar plan I knew a guy once who put his dog on a cable run going down a steep heel. The dog would fetch like a retriever. He threw a ball down the hill and the dog would shoot down there and come back up the hill a fast clip just to do it again. This turned out ot be a staple of the work. We laughed as he would give every dog he owned a chance to play this game but most would not. Damn nar begging.

Another we had was a female obsessed with a ball made out of rolled up socks. A little larger than a softball. It was an all out dead sprint after that ball every time it went airborne. The staple of her keep was my buddy and I standing 20 yards or so apart throwing the ball back and forth. She was a freak specimen after four or five weeks.

It is funny how well the simple stuff works.

Too bad the dogs can't be programmed for the 'right' obsessions.

Great story on the steps.

EWO

Ditto arsuffi@att.net. That was some excellent insight. Rowell may have been ahead of his times,using a less hassle free way to feed in a keep. The only times I saw him lose a dog show event was from being out pulled by a better dog. Which happens to all that stay in the game long enough. Rowell never lost from his dog having lack of conditioning. Rowell won way more than he ever lost. Rowell was a very private dog man that stayed out of the lime light. He worked dogs not only for himself but others as well. Hear his health is not very well today. He had years back some Carver/Red Boy crossed dogs along with some pure bred Carver dogs.

If one ever reads Don Mayfield's feed keep. It is one long drawn out tedious process. V.J. said heck with all that and simplified that keep a lot with very good results. James Crenshaw spent some time with Don Mayfield also. The biggest difference in Crenshaw's feed keep and V.J.'s feed keep was Crenshaw used more kibble later into the keep to maintain the dogs weight. V.J. kept the kibble at the amount that was used to bring the dog to it's best show weight during the prekeep. V.J. added more chicken necks and chicken backs/Chicken broth to maintain show weight.

Now here is the kicker since many advocate a 100% raw diet. I will not argue that view point being that excellent results have been shown from doing so. It is the cooking destroys this and that I have pondered over. We cooked our Chicken necks and chicken backs in a pressure cooker to also obtain the Chicken broth to boot.

The dogs were worked on the pressure cooked Chicken necks/chicken backs/chicken broth/ with a lesser amount of kibble. The kibble amount would have worked out to about 20% of total diet. There was added supplements like green tripe/ desiccate liver/brewers yeast /Greens/probiotics/Geritol/etc. in moderation. Best I can figure today is that the moderate supplementation replaced anything lost in the cooking process. Should work as well on a top quality cooked canned dog food.

These dogs conditioned by James Crenshaw or V.J. were in excellent shape with bright eyes and gleaming shiny coats. The inner gums were a deep healthy blood red. It appears to me, the old saying of skinning a cat more than one way, still holds true. That cat can be skinned more than one way in the working part of the keep and the feeding part of the keep.

This has never been a lazy man's sport. Even the most diligent have to work hard to say on top. Cheers

CYJ I truly enjoy every thing you write, I know you don't remember me because it was a lot of years ago, but I met you through three men one was The Professor who had the Ch. Gina bitch and the other two was Eric and Orion who had the Crazy Critter dog if my memory is still good. I remember our conversation you were so polite and patience and gave out good information when nobody was willing to at that time in N.C. Sorry to get off subject I know of another good old timer won't say his name but he went under B. Oreo he was from N.Y. he fed canned dog food and dry and his record was one to be admired. The second time Crenshaw and Kelley saw me on a hunt in KY. Crenshaw pulled me a side and wanted to know how I worked and fed that thirty pound bitch I knew then I was on to something. But my bulldogs got really better after long talks with Bob S. of the S.T.P. combine he was truly a great dog man that stayed behind the curtains, also a friend from down your way later on also gave me very good advice M. Gainey on dogs , breedings, feedings , work but mostly he gave me confidence in my self and in my dogs. Please keep contributing as I look forward most every day to see your posts. Yours in the Game Johnny

Ditto arsuffi@att.net. Thank you for the nice compliments. Am so glad I have finally found someone who knew Orion and Eric Zetterquest. Have been wanting to know where those two dog men are today. Would not only like to contact them but visit them as well. I never knew what they did with their dogs off that mating of their Crazy Critter dog to my Young's Face bitch. They had a litter bred off my Young's Jake dog to that red/red nose Ed Larson bred bitch. That bitch dog's name was Zetterquest's Booger. Should have taken some of those pups. But already had a yard full of my own. Hope you can tell me if they are still around and how to contact them.

Another young dog man I lost contact with who no longer has any dogs, was Marty Hill. If the Lord willing may see you at the upcoming pig picking. Cheers

It is funny how much 'being pulled aside' can mean. We went north with the rock chunking dog into a camp that was winning a lot of matches with a lot of good dogs. 4-5-6 guys pooling their resources. These guys were out and about doing dogs for large amounts of money, buying good dogs from whoever had them just ot make the next match.

When we won over a "better dog from a better camp". The winning was awesome but to have one from their camp ask 'how'd you do it?'. It was almost like 'well, I have arrived'. Not as big a deal as winning but moving in that direction.

Then when I gave the rock chunking story it was like I was being coy, holding back, keeping the secrets to myself about working a dog and they wanted to know more and more.

Another time we went to a small show near hear, one set of dogs one for #2 and the other for #3. Great match and good people. Most thought conditioning was the difference. Afterwards we broke the pit down and guys were hanging out talking dogs. In a matter of minutes an older fellow was in a chair and six or eight guys were sitting around him as he talked about working dogs. There was never a better classroom on any college campus anywhere, anytime. The 'students' did not need a recorder or a pen as they were locked in on his every word.

Babbling. The string of night shifts is starting to win. LOL. Good series of posts.

EWO

First thoughts, as a green DM .Top quality canned dog food to shape your dog for a weight pull competition , or conformation. My thoughts ,how has the dog been feed up till then, has he or she been on top canned or complete raw, if complete raw would
This change, cause a situation. Would the change cause an inner storm. If one uses complete raw,then goes to a top canned label, but needs to add raw or other fats and supplements to balance, this seems like double work, and cost.
Plus,dogs seem to throw up more often ,on a can, and kibble diet. Just my observation. My best
And curious, can someone expound on Brewers yeast.

Kendall,debitter brewers yeast helps with food digestion,promotes good gut bacteria and fast absorb able b-vitamins. The desiccate liver with/liquid Geritol, or red cell, or sorbitol, builds the blood count. Some dog men use some of these additives, some do not or not at all. I did not care for sticking a dog in its back legs every week with painful iron and B-12 shots.To much needle sticking can make a good calm dog become man shy.

You do a six week to eight week pre keep on said dog. To slowly work it down to weight,get the dog on a worming schedule, adjust dog slowly to any new type feed etc. Give the dog time to tone up and it's feet pads to toughen. The new feed and any supplementation has to be gradually added to prevent any severe diarrhea or dehydration.

It can take years to learn all of this stuff. No one does it all the same way. Don Divine was a top dog conditioner and top race horse conditioner. I was standing with a group of dog men many years back down Florida way. I was listening to Mr. Divine answer questions about feed and conditioning. I remember Mr. Divine saying too properly condition a pit dog, was much harder than conditioning a Race horse.

As you have read from above. No two dogs are alike or will work a tread mill or swing jenny etc. Good dog men learn what works best for any certain dog and they go with that. Know what needs to be done first before entering said dog in a dog show. Always look before you leap. Mr. Armitage believed a match well made was a match half won. Cheers

A lot of the threads and thread subjects tie together. Most of them boil down to what works for that particular dog. I can go out and buy the best frikkin' slat mill in the world. $2 to $3000, with all the bells and whistles. If my dog will not work that mill it becomes absolutely useless. It has no value to me for that dog. If the next dog works it well then that piece becomes priceless. The value can't be calculated.

Food the same. If a dog is winning on canned food then it is what it is. There may be better plans out there but some do not believe in rocking the boat. Most will make 5 subtle changes as they go, and years from now it looks like a major change was made. Some jump ship to every winning plan that comes by.

I insist my dogs run the table and the carpet mill. Sometimes their resistance out powers my insistance. At that point I have to go plan B.

EWO

Enjoyed the feed conversations as well.

I like the reactions a few had when the 'use of canned food' was even mentioned. Like it was the absolute worst thing that could happen.

One of the things that it can do as well is mask some other stuff such as greens or supplements, like was said before.

I imagine it is like most anything, the idea is to find how and when it works and then put it to use. A lot like everything else that 'works', someone had to give it a try.

EWO