Question For the Board......

HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING..... Two men can be looking at the same thing and have two totally different opinions in these dogs. That being said, let me give a scenario.... you have 2 hounds that you've waited on until these hound is over 3 years old. Now you stick hound A and hound B together and they crank right up.... Hound A looks the best, in total control, smart ear sucker.... shows no mouth at all..... Hound B cant get in and when she does get a hold she doesnt keep it, frustrated and whining while not taking ANY REAL PUNISHEMENT.... HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING.... lets say this goes on for about 15 minutes. Neither take much damage at all.... A handle is made Hound B.... doesnt go... walks off.... Hound A to go and stands.... and this was the one in total control. Now this is where it gets tricky when PARTNERS ARE INVOLVED. IMO, i would cull both hounds. your partner says he wants to keep Hound A and give her another look. My thing is FOR WHAT???? I understand not knowing what to do or how to do it.... that comes with schooling. THE FACT THAT BOTHERS ME IS HE IS WILLING TO WASTE HIS TIME ON A HOUND THAT FLAT OUT STOOD THE LINE ON TOP. I feel like if the hound is able to go, they should make every attempt possible to get back to business. if not, i dont feel the hound is intertested in doing what it was bred to do. me and my partner was friends before these dogs and we will be friends after. im just concerned that if two partners are this far apart in opinions, should we really be partners in these dogs???? ALL OPINIONS AND COMMENTS NEEDED PLEASE!!!!!!

How old were these dogs and how experienced was the first dog?

For sake of argument, lets say both hounds were over 3 years old and was both first time ever being touched.

I would never judge any dog on its first time down, and I would never try to "start" any dog with a dog that has no experience either.

Ch Vengence himself stopped on his first roll, after beating the piss out of a growly-snappy cur who then stood the line. Vengence was young, he was confused by the cur-snapping, and he was disinterested in fighting a cur.

The owner called me with a similar "What do I do?" question, I told him to conduct himself like a professional dogman, not an amateur kid, and put his young dogs only with AN EXPERIENCED BULLDOG, not another green chump. So the guy put Vengence in there with a real bulldog ... that pissed him off and brought out his best ... and the rest (as they say) is history.

Jack


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I understand Jack. They were compatible in size and i knew both would start. That's my fault. I keep having this image of her standing there and it bothers the hell outta me man, i'm not gonna lie. I understand what you're saying about fighting a cur also. She will get another go and the one that's gonna be on her this time means business. Hound A style should help her against this straight forward bulldozer. if she cant keep her out, we'll see if she stands again.

I just think it's important to remember to SCHOOL them first ... and save the "judgement" for later ... AFTER they're schooled and experienced :)

I agree with Jack. You can't fault a hound on his first time down if what you're showing him can be at all confusing. We ask a hell of a lot out of our dogs to begin with, the very least we can do is make sure that they are 100% clear on what exactly that is. Putting them with a dog that isn't challenging or hurting them at all definitely leaves room for interpretation by any dog, most especially first timers. YOU need to be sure that this dog knows what his/her job is, before you can start judging them on how they work.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE DONT REALLY KNOW WHAT SCHOOLING IS OR WHAT ITS FOR....SCHOOLING AND CHECKING IS TO DIFFRENT THINGS ....

That also goes for the other dog too ... its very first time down was pure frustration, no reward. The last thing I would ever put on a first time dog would be a slick head dog ... hell slick head dogs make EXPERIENCED PIT CHAMPIONS quit ... let alone a completely unschooled dog just trying to get its first bite.

You have to use more sense and understanding that that.

Both dogs should have been put in there with a true bulldog (of average/below-average ability) who would relentlessly go after them, but who would be easy to figure out and whip once they start. It forces the unschooled dog to defend himself, and yet (because the opponent is easy), it builds confidence in the inexperienced dog at the same time, because he "wins" ... and what he sees in his game-plug opponent is HAPPINESS and ENTHUSIASM all geeked-up in the corner ... not cur-snapping and an opponent standing there when it's done.

A little common sense and forethought go a long way :D

Jack

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I understand the difference between schooling and checking. The weight she is we dont have many the same size, and if you ask other folks to play they going to bring a good one trying to prove a point or something so we use or own with our own. That being said.... I can admit i may have rushed to judge especially considering the dogs dont even know what to do yet.... That was a valid point. But sometimes when ya got two people involved instead of trying to make the other one see your point or vice versa, ya gotta find a common ground.... I got it... Talked to my friend earlier and both will get another look. NOW THAT BRINGS ME TO THIS..... When u say they dont know what to do..... are you saying one can be taught to go????

I'm going to have to disagree. They are 3 years old and you said, "they cranked right up". That to me shows they had the enthusiasm and will to do what they were bred to do from the very get go once they were released. If they are not showing that same enthusiasm to scratch after cranking right up AND not being hurt at all, for less than 15 min, then on my yard they would be culled. I also don't consider that a game check in any form from your description. However, I don't know your line and what is normal for what you feed. If it's common practice for your dogs to need to the age of 3 to know for sure they'll start, then maybe then aren't started, but the scenario you gave to me implied otherwise.

The scenario i gave is exactly how it happened. i also felt the same way and expressed it to my partner but hey.... another look wont hurt. I just wait on them that's all and my partner did a year of the three years on vacation. I was working with them while he was away and conditioning their minds. That's why i felt so strongly about what happened and i felt they should be culled. we dont have a lot of space, both hounds are well of age, and even though unschooled, I felt the willingness to continue should have been there. Now jack made a point about fighting a cur. Hound B is not worth a chain spot, period. Hound A will get another look.... both was going to be looked at again but hound B showed nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

I understand the difference between schooling and checking. The weight she is we dont have many the same size, and if you ask other folks to play they going to bring a good one trying to prove a point or something so we use or own with our own. That being said.... I can admit i may have rushed to judge especially considering the dogs dont even know what to do yet.... That was a valid point. But sometimes when ya got two people involved instead of trying to make the other one see your point or vice versa, ya gotta find a common ground.... I got it... Talked to my friend earlier and both will get another look. NOW THAT BRINGS ME TO THIS..... When u say they dont know what to do..... are you saying one can be taught to go????

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Well, the trouble with blanket statements is they never apply to all dogs, and by that I mean the truth of how "one" dog matures isn't necessarily the truth for how "another" dog matures.

Your two dogs may both be rank curs, one may be rank and the other one is just not yet with the program, or both dogs may still have potential that just hasn't been allowed to bloom yet.

To show what I mean, my Pretty Boy dog was fully-started by 6 weeks old. He had to be separated from his litter by 6 weeks of age. He was sold to a greenhorn who let him get to 16 months of age, and instead of rolling Pretty Boy and schooling him, this guy matched Pretty Boy whose first time down in a box EVER was a contracted match ... that went 2:42 ... and Pretty Boy won (in the only way that his no-talent ass could win) on gameness. Very few dogs could have done, at 16 months of age, on their first time down, what Pretty Boy did! Pretty Boy was essentially "fool-proof," in that even an incredible fool like his owner couldn't mess him up because Pretty Boy just loved to do his thing since Day 1.

All right, well, Silverback was nothing like Pretty Boy. He was a happy pup and grew up around other dogs, never once showing any aggression at all. When he was young, one of my bitches grabbed him, and Silverback DOA'd her within 5-6 min. I was literally gone for no more than 10 min and came back to a stone-dead bitch. Choked TF out. Yet Silverback wasn't really "on," he just wouldn't take shit and (little did I know at the time) was a rare natural-born finisher. When I came back, he was standing over the dead bitch wagging his tail like a puppy. IMO, he did what he did in self-defense, and did not start it.

Yet still, on his first "look" at 16 mos, Silverback actually ran passed the other dog and jumped up on the other handler wanting to "play" :lol: After the other dog grabbed him, Silverback sat there for a moment, like his feelings were hurt ... like he thought everybody was his friend and couldn't believe anyone would want to hurt him :lol:

Within a few seconds of being attacked, however, Silverback threw down the gauntlet, and very shortly the other dog needed to be picked up to be saved. That "other dog" was Pretty Boy, the game dog that went 2:42. Well, he would have been DOA in under :10 with the 2-lb bigger Silverback 8-)

Yet, when separated, Silverback wasn't quite sure what he was supposed to do --- he had been raised as a pet and thought he was a "bad boy" for doing stuff like that --- but he did go over there, a bit tentatively, and completed his scratch. He did the same thing on his next time down ... ran passed the other dog, then got pissed when he was grabbed, then handled his business ... because he spent another couple of months being a house dog. Yet, by his 3rd time down Silverback "got it" and realized when he saw another adult male in a [] ... that it was time to rock-and-roll ... and boy could he rock-and-roll, just totally dominating whatever he was with, and in a hurry. He no longer scratched tentatively, but hard and with brutal intent. Yet, at home, he still realizes he is a "bad boy" to show aggression ... smart dogs are like that :lol:

The moral of the story is I did not try to "judge" the dog on his first try. His talent was naturally awesome, but in his head he was still a happy puppy, and he was never really all that aggressive (at least not until he gets hurt). I honestly think that if I had put Silverback on an un-started piece of shit, that cur-snapped and then stood there, hell Silverback might not have started. And he might not have gone over there either on his first time. Totally different scene. However, because Pretty Boy really laid it into his ass, and then was being held over there in the corner going apeshit for the separation, that kept the young Silverback geeked-up too, which was part of his motivation for going back over there: enthusiasm.

So, again, if I were you I wouldn't rush to any decisions over ANYTHING after a first look against another green opponent. To me, it has nothing to do with "not being hurt," it has more to do with the level of intensity. Two green dogs squawking at each other, and then letting go and standing there, sounds more like totally-inexperienced first-time bullshit than anything I personally would make a decision over. Myself, I would instead put something on each one that is fully-schooled, fully-started, and for real intense, and see how your dogs each handles a bulldog, not a fellow funny-acting beginner.

Sure, a dog like Pretty Boy is easier to make judgment calls on, and doesn't require as much work to get pointed in the right direction ... however, as fully-schooled, fully-mature animals Silverback could go through 3 of Pretty Boy without getting too hot, so it was worth the extra effort ... and neither Pretty Boy's 'ease of starting,' nor his early deep gameness, could give him a snowball's chance in hell of whipping The Gorilla 8-)

Jack

I agree with your assessment of Silverback, but your description of his beginnings sound nothing like what luvmybulldogs described, as he wasn't started and you stated, "Yet still, on his first "look" at 16 mos, Silverback actually ran passed the other dog and jumped up on the other handler wanting to "play". That wasn't the implication I got for luvmybulldogs with his statement of:

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

.... you have 2 hounds that you've waited on until these hound is over 3 years old. Now you stick hound A and hound B together and they crank right up....

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Maybe my defintion of "crank right up" is different. At the end of the day, one has to know their dogs and do what is best for their yard accordingly. Like I said, with my definition of "crank right up", on my yard, that scenario would nave led me to extract them from my program. Although I must admit, for my yard, all of this would have bee started well before the age of 3 as well. :mrgreen:

I hear you Earl.

I do agree that a clarification needs to be made on exactly what "cranked right up" means. Did each dog immediately run over and take hold, no nonsense, or did they both stand there growling first?

I just like to leave no room for doubt, so if I had two dogs both acting like that at the end, I would personally pull out an old pro (like Pretty Boy) that I didn't have to analyze or worry about, and keep my focus on only one of the two dogs. It may just prove to be a waste of time, and maybe it would have quit again, but at least I would never second-guess myself, and wonder "what if?"

I think the consequences are dire enough for each animal, and the scenario questionable enough, so that it won't hurt to have a second (more professional) look at them and see for sure.

Yet everybody's got to make their own decisions, but that's what I would do :mrgreen:

The first mistake was putting two untouched dogs on each other. This is a great way to teach bad habits and really slow down schooling. Also most times than not you won't get what you want out of it. Not saying this is true in all cases as there are untouched or young dogs that know what todo instinctively but if you're going todo it you might as well do it the most logical way. You want to use a dog that you know will go over there and take hold when you need it to and give the inexperienced dog some good looks.

Personally I wouldn't keep those dogs as I have no need for 3 year old dogs that won't go but if your partner thought he saw something in that dog or feels like it just needs some more time to figure out the deal then more power to him. If you respect him enough to call him a partner then give him the benefit of the doubt. Very rarely will two people agree on everything all the time. Now if he starts making a habit of keeping curs or making excuses for dogs and that's not what you're about then you might want to think about parting ways.

Hound A went over and took hold hound b was growling, trotted a few steps forward and was met by hound A and was dominated the entire time. My partner's view tends to side more with what Jack is saying.... I say cull both and move on. Reason being, we dont have a ton of space. The dogs are well kept and well managed. I give them the best opportunity to prove themselves worthy, so when the time comes to make that decision i have no qualms because i have done my part. THE BOTTOM LINE IS.... RATHER THEY KNEW WHAT TO DO OR NOT, I STILL BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BOTH WANTED TO CONTINUE IN ORDER TO BE SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER KEEPING. To each his own i guess, however.... it wont hurt to give'em another go either. The next bitch will be a little smaller but she will know from jump street that "she aint whistlin' dixie".....

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

Hound A went over and took hold hound b was growling, trotted a few steps forward and was met by hound A and was dominated the entire time.

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It sounds to me like Dog A would be more of a candidate for being a cur than Dog B, if Dog A started right up and quit, while Dog B just tried to "fight back" and never really started.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

My partner's view tends to side more with what Jack is saying.... I say cull both and move on. Reason being, we dont have a ton of space. The dogs are well kept and well managed. I give them the best opportunity to prove themselves worthy, so when the time comes to make that decision i have no qualms because i have done my part.

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Did you really do your part? I am not sure any top dogman I know would call tossing 2 green dogs together, without schooling either one, and then rendering judge and jury "doing your part."

I think, deep down, you know you failed to take a lot of steps ... which is why you're posting this here ;)

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

THE BOTTOM LINE IS.... RATHER THEY KNEW WHAT TO DO OR NOT, I STILL BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE BOTH WANTED TO CONTINUE IN ORDER TO BE SOMETHING I WOULD CONSIDER KEEPING. To each his own i guess, however....

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The bottom line is you took short-cuts and are now second-guessing yourself. Had you fully-schooled each animal, and not thrown 2 green dogs together, where one grabbed the other and then "let go" after a few minutes, you wouldn't have any doubts at all. However, because deep down in your bones you know you skipped a lot of steps going from "untouched" to "judged", you're here second-guessing the scenario.

To me it sounds like your partner wants to be sure, and you don't want to be bothered with it.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

it wont hurt to give'em another go either. The next bitch will be a little smaller but she will know from jump street that "she aint whistlin' dixie".....

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I think this is only sensible and fair.

Jack

Again, it was my mistake in putting two unstarted dogs together... I guessed right on hound a but hound b fooled me. i respect my partner and dogs damn sure wont change our friendship. If we had 80 acres, or even 8 acres... i would understand a little more. its not like that. especially when there are others to be involved with that i feel have more potential. i feel like a good one wants to, likes to, enjoys it.... and im really unsure if that can be taught or not... schooling can and will improve some things but it wont improve her willingness.... and after such a short period of time with minimal damage, i felt like her willingness to continue should have been there, no questions asked. First time or not. skill has nothing to do with heart.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

Again, it was my mistake in putting two unstarted dogs together... I guessed right on hound a but hound b fooled me. i respect my partner and dogs damn sure wont change our friendship. If we had 80 acres, or even 8 acres... i would understand a little more. its not like that. especially when there are others to be involved with that i feel have more potential. i feel like a good one wants to, likes to, enjoys it.... and im really unsure if that can be taught or not... schooling can and will improve some things but it wont improve her willingness.... and after such a short period of time with minimal damage, i felt like her willingness to continue should have been there, no questions asked. First time or not. skill has nothing to do with heart.

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Exactly right, so why should your dogs pay for your mistake?

Regarding your beliefs that every dog should immediately scratch back, whether hurt or not, would you say Chinaman and Dibo didn't really "have heart" because they didn't start, and wouldn't go back, their first time either?

You might want to consider the possibility that the way you see things "every dog should go back on its first time down, or it sucks," is an incorrect view of reality ;)

The reality is, some dogs that "start right away and go over" ... go on to quit later ... while some dogs that "don't start and go over right away" ... eventually mature-out into deeply-game, talented dogs.

History has proven both scenarios time and again. For this reason, it is always better to take ALL of the necessary steps to success, rather than try to skip them.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

i felt like her willingness to continue should have been there, no questions asked. First time or not. skill has nothing to do with heart.

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Nothing wrong with this thinking. The strength of a yard is directly related to the standards of the man or woman behind it. I don't agree with the way the roll went down as I think it's a waste of time to do it that way but I do feel like they should have gone and wouldn't have stuck around here much longer afterwards.

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Originally Posted by BulldogConnection

Nothing wrong with this thinking. The strength of a yard is directly related to the standards of the man or woman behind it. I don't agree with the way the roll went down as I think it's a waste of time to do it that way but I do feel like they should have gone and wouldn't have stuck around here much longer afterwards.

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Good point.

However, "standards" for true athletic excellence and deep gameness are one thing ... while unprofessional methods (followed by quick judgments) are quite another ...

The guys who gave Dibo and Chinaman time to school out and be judged properly had "standards" ... whereas many "who would have culled them after the first roll" THINK they have high standards, but in fact they're just impatient.

I would have to disagree with you jack on me skipping some steps. I dont think i skipped anything at all. Made a mistake in judgement by putting two greenies together when i know better... yeah, took shortcuts... no sir. Shortcuts wont get my yard where I want it to be. If anything, I feel like im setting a standard. Again jack these hounds are 3 years old. Both of them. I gave in on hound A because of your example with ch vengenance... not gave in but realized hey maybe im being a little hasty.... on the other hand, hound b IMO is a cull. she is 3 years old and with limited space, she has to go. If chinaman or dibo was in my possesion and didnt start at three years old, they would be "walking the green mile" however, im not breeding a family of dogs... i just got a couple bulldogs guys....

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

I would have to disagree with you jack on me skipping some steps.I dont think i skipped anything at all.

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Judging them before schooling them is skipping steps, is it not?

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

Made a mistake in judgement by putting two greenies together when i know better... yeah, took shortcuts... no sir. Shortcuts wont get my yard where I want it to be.

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Well, we just disagree then. Going from "first time down" to "judged" in the same roll is the very definition of shortcut-taking IMO.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

If anything, I feel like im setting a standard. Again jack these hounds are 3 years old. Both of them.

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You are setting a standard for quick judgments, and taking a shortcut on schooling, that is all I am seeing here.

Neither Chinaman nor Dibo would start until 4 or 5 respectively ...

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

I gave in on hound A because of your example with ch vengenance... not gave in but realized hey maybe im being a little hasty.... on the other hand, hound b IMO is a cull. she is 3 years old and with limited space, she has to go.

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You're being hasty with both, the principle is the same across the board, but that is your right to do.

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Originally Posted by luvmybulldogs

If chinaman or dibo was in my possesion and didnt start at three years old, they would be "walking the green mile" however, im not breeding a family of dogs... i just got a couple bulldogs guys....

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Well, here again, the decision to kill 3 year olds that won't start has nothing to do with actual "standards of excellence," as you've never owned a dog as excellent as either Chinaman or Dibo, which means your decisions are just a matter of impatience, limited space, and the preference for early starters. Excellence has to do with ACTUAL ABILITY, once started and once schooled, not on how quickly they're willing to crank-on and go.

As I mentioned in my first example, Pretty Boy was by far an earlier-starting, better-acting young dog than Silverback ... but as far as "True Excellence" goes, Silverback has more ability and physical excellence in his toenail than Pretty Boy had in his whole body.

The desire and willingness to "start early on the first time down" is not excellence; it's just early starting.

Jack

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Good thing about your site jack, we can agree to disagree. I see what you're saying about schooling the hound out first. My thing is if the dog didnt show any willingness to continue, i dont think its worth my time to continue schooling before passing judgement. Im not expecting to see a miracle the first time out but what i am expecting to see is a willingness to compete. If that's not there then IMO i have no use for you. If hound a would have continued, i wouldve been happy... even with the butter mouth cause she showed style and smarts..... again jack... i dont want you to get me wrong, these dogs are 3 years old and i know about some mature faster than others and all that but not around here. 3 is the cut off.

Yes, we can just agree to disagree pleasantly, because at this point we're just going in circles :?

Thank you for an interesting topic that "caught fire" right away :lol:

Cheers,

Jack

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Jack just for questions sake, what is the oldest you have HAD to wait on one to start, and what is the longest you WOULD wait on one to start? I've never had a late starter, but I do believe in the motto' "Early to start, early to ruin". Most are incapable of doing a dog properly, regardless at which age it starts.

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Originally Posted by Earl Tudor

Jack just for questions sake, what is the oldest you have HAD to wait on one to start, and what is the longest you WOULD wait on one to start? I've never had a late starter, but I do believe in the motto' "Early to start, early to ruin". Most are incapable of doing a dog properly, regardless at which age it starts.

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Interesting question.

Like you, most of my dogs are early starters and get right with it, from the first time down. Even Silverback, who started late for my stuff, still defended himself and DOAd the first bitch who ever bit him ... and would have DOA'd both dogs I put on him on his first two times (after he got pissed) ... he just didn't initially "aggress" at them ... but he damned sure wouldn't sit there and take being bit either. By his 3rd time down, Silverback would hit the opponent right from the get-go and was totally with the program by 2 years of age.

I guess the latest-starting dog I ever had was Diamond Girl. She too "defended herself," but you could see her heart wasn't really into it. Diamond Girl actually stood there on the second scratch of her first roll. A lot of "experts" there told me that I should "put her down," but I ignored their bad advice and knew that Diamond Girl was just a sweet dog who hadn't "got mean" yet. She just wanted to play at that point, and didn't really consider other dogs "her enemy," so Rudy and I waited and kept trying until she was 3,where she started to show promise, and by about 3.5 years of age, Diamond Girl was fully-on and as mean and nasty toward other dogs as her little snub-nosed self could be :lol: Her test was coming from way back to stop a pretty badass bitch in 1:05. I later sold DG, and the guy who had her put her through a brutal f-----g test, and told me DG was one of the gamest bitches he ever owned in his life. So, in Diamond Girl's case, our patience paid off, and she produced multiple DG and badass dogs, and was the dam of Slingshot's Ch Buster, the game Anderson's Legend (who's behind WestPenn's Ch LittleBuck), she was the granddam to Jackson's Ch Violent, and Diamond Girl was also distantly behind 2 Grand Champions one of which was the 2006 Philippine DOY.

In the end, I suppose I really haven't had to wait too long to get what I want out of most of my dogs, and very rarely do I get anything but the proper result right off the bat. Still, for the most part, my being patient with a few well-bred dogs has paid off. Naturally, like anyone else, I prefer "instant results," but if I don't get them I will still be patient and allow each dog to bloom at his/her own time and pace.

Jack

EDIT: As for how long I would wait, I guess that depends on how much I like the individual dog in other ways (looks, overall intelligence, ease-of-care vs. hard-to-keep, how rare/good its immediate ancestors were, etc.)

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