In regards to the Staffords that have been mentioned in this thread, there's one of them thar Staffords in the SDJ Grand Champion list..GR CH DOCK'S DUKE 5XW
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In regards to the Staffords that have been mentioned in this thread, there's one of them thar Staffords in the SDJ Grand Champion list..GR CH DOCK'S DUKE 5XW
In following the subject brought up by Skipper on the other mentioned thread, this thread here shall be dedicated to that off-topic digression, namely to discuss known great pit dogs who were not APBT, such as the following dog brought up by MTK: Dock's GR CH Duke.
I have heard that name before, MTK, but don't know much about him. Do you know if he fought pit bulls for his Gr Ch Ship, other Staffordshire Bull Terriers, or a mixture of both?
How bout any other great non-APBT pit dogs?
http://sportingbullandterrier.webs.c...kingstaffs.htm
Info and pictures of some of the famous staffords.
FFB's Beanie
Sire: Hagler II Dam: Northford Suzie II
"Beanie" was regarded very highly as both a performer and producer, born in N.Ireland she proved her gameness in a number of demanding tests before being matched twice and winning both, one against a Reid cross in 46 mins and the second in 1hour 38mins into a Patrick cross. Shortly after this Beanie was purchased by L&B kennels in England where she was bred twice,once to the Milo dog giving BeanieII and also to Jocko producing a litter that included Jocko Jr and Merlin. Some time after she was sent over to Europe on the yard of the FFB's where she remained. Here she was bred four times, to Barney, Pilot,Rickey and finally to her son Jack. There were game offspring in all four litters, proving her worth as a brood bitch. At least six of her progeny were matched, these were Rickey Jr (1xw), Jocko Jr (1xL picked up game to an APBT, a son of Ch.Neillson), Flynn (2xw), Sharon (1xw), Droopy (1xL)and Jack (1xw). There were others that were'nt matched but were proven game. Beanie can rightly be regarded as a modern great in Staffords.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...res/230859.gif
Bad Manners Combine "Judas"
Judas" was a white Stafford with a black patch covering his right ear and was bred by Eaststreet Kennels, the product of a mating between the well-known "Jocko" dog and one of his daughters. He was purchased by the BMC from T at Eaststreet and was exported to the continent.
The writer, whilst visiting the BMC yard noticed the pup and his strange behaviour in the kennel. He would spend enormous amounts of time, chasing his tail in an anti-clockwise direction, without any apparent goal in mind. His owners believed that this and other strange behaviour was due to the way he had been inbred to closely.
At 10 months old "Judas" got into a kennel fight with a dog called "R****" resulting in a broken cheekbone for the other dog. At 13 months old, he was rolled into a Pitbull from the Mullins line, with the dog having to be picked up at eight minutes after hitting a bleeder that wouldn't stop. At such a young age "Judas" was displaying the attributes and abilities of a strangely remarkable dog.
Several months later, a little test was organised with the FFB's and their good little dog called "Pilot", who had gained a reputation. It was one of the hardest rolls that the writer had witnessed with the "Pilot" dog showing superior ability despite his 3lb weight disadvantage. The "Judas" dog continued with his now regularly weird behaviour, like biting his own leg and then shaking it. At 4 minutes though, he got a hold on the "Pilot" dogs front paw and broke it. Both dogs had good bites, but to actually break bone, said something about the "Judas" dog's bite. The "Pilot" dog made a few good scratches on his 3 good legs. Both owners decided to pick up their dogs at the 25 minute mark to prevent further injury, but both were extremely reluctant to come away from the other.
After a long rest, "Judas" was hitched into a Pitbull called "Killer" which lasted 17 minutes, with the pitbull taking the count on his first. "Judas" flew his courtesy scratch and gained his first win. His second match was against a Red Devil bred dog called "Corvino". The other dog was picked up at 12 minutes after failing to deal with the hard biting "Judas". Both dogs ran fine courtesy scratches, with "Judas" being declared winner, his second triumph.
He was rolled several times after this second win, stopping some good dogs along the way. His last one was against a dog called "Gus" from the Taminford Kennels, which had been bred by the FFB's from a mating between "Pilot" and "Beanie", and was a hard test for both dogs. He was mated with a small number of K.C. bitches and a one-time winning bitch called "Fien", who was a Red Strain x O'Flynn Stafford cross. Future plans include mating "Judas" with the FFB's little Stafford bitch "Betty".
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...res/411292.jpg
Ch. Red Warrior
Sire: Dann's Frazer of Ireland Dam: Dann's Mandy of Dublin
"Ch.Red Warrior", also known as "Delaney's Starsky" in Ireland, was brought over to England by Maurice Dann just as his parents were and renamed "Dann's Choice". He was the winner of at least four matches, some say it was as many as seven and like his brother "The Great Bruce" was a very game Stafford. Like any good dog Red Warrior was able to pass on his desired qualities and sired Red Joe, Leo, Dann's Rocky, Lee's Bucko and Ginger amongst others.
Breeder: T Lee
Sex: Male
Colour: Red
Weight:
Height:
Record: 4xW
http://i41.tinypic.com/ehewls.jpg
Springview's CH Jim
Springview's Ch. Jim was out of Russel's Ch. Red Joe who was sired by Ch. Red Warrior, a Dublin bred dog from Bobby Watt's old stock. The Dam of Ch Jim was a bitch called Ginger, which was the result of a mating with the Red Warrior put to his half sister the Young Mandy of Dublin. Many of these matings were done by M. Dann, which was said to be way ahead than anyone with his breeding.
The Jim dog was very young to start and was rolled with some good dogs always wanting more. His first roll was at the age of 12 months into a dog from Dann's stock called Irish Black Jack, a very game field dog well tested in both field and pit. A few weeks later he was matched at the age of 13 months against a dog called Bull.. The match was made at 40lb and Jim was worked in anyway he could, by bike, by walking, and by pulling logs, nearly killing him as the owners at the time was not too knowledgeable about keeps and rests, which would change as they later became known as one of the better conditioners in the UK.
The Jim dog came in at 37lb and Bull was 42lb. At the let go, Bull came out and threw Jim all over the pit and at the 10 minute mark Bull had Jim down and was working the chest. Jim came back and proved that he also knew how to chew as he started working on Bull's nose. When asked to scratch at 18 minutes Bull quit making Jim a 1xw.
Jim was rested for a few months before he was matched against a 1xw called Sam. The match was set at 38lb and Jim was 37 1/2lb while Sam came in on the spot. At the start it was fast with Sam on the head and Jim on the legs and chest. Both were biting hard and swapping it out and at the 10 minute mark, Jim was on the nose biting hard, Sam was trying to get to the chest , but fading fast he was picked up at 28 minutes making Jim a 2xw.
Jim was then sold to some guys in Portsmouth as the owners moved over to APBT's and couldn't get a match for Jim in their own area. Jim's Championship match was set at 38lb, against Buzz, but this match was quickly over as Buzz turned straight away and stood the line in 2 minutes, making Jim a Champion.
His 4th match was very controversial since it was claimed that he lost due to a fault and a bad referee. This match was against a 4x winner name Ch. Sam who was going for his Grand Championship. It was said that when it was Jim's turn to scratch and the referee said, " Release the dogs " both handlers did so. It seems like Sam's handler had accepted that Jim had made his scratch since he also released Sam, but then the weirdest thing happened, Sam started to spin around in his corner very fast chasing his tail when Jim shot across trying to mouth him without success and was counted out by the referee who awarded the match to Sam after 1 hour and 5 min and said that Jim didn't make the scratch.
Later on Jim was matched into a dog called Ben who had won over a good dog in 1 hour. Jim won this match since Ben was unable to scratch at 1 hour and 37 minutes. A few months later Jim was matched into a EBT/Staff cross called Rocky, which quit standing on the line after 29 minutes making Jim a 5x winner. Many considered this dog a Gr.Ch. even though he lost to Gr. Ch. Sam due to a fault and a bad referee.
Jim was retired to stud at the age of 7 and he was only bred to a few bitches. The Jim dog was a highly respected dog, highly praised even among the Stafford fancy of the continental Europe. There are still offspring from this well bred line around today, but don't expect to easily find them.
Source: Staffordtribute site
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...T/205b91fd.jpg
A few dogs. If you guys find these reads interesting, I could fill in with plenty more.
Very interesting stuff, Skipper.
To me, I don't see too much difference in a Staffordshire Bull Terrier and an APBT. They seem to be about the same weight too, some of them being 42 lb pit weight. That is bigger than any dog on my yard!
There aren't many left. Due to heavy inbreeding most of todays stafford are much smaller. It's just like the apbt some bloodlines tends to be bigger. But the ones I'm most familiar with are down from the psycho/northford bloodlines. The ones I have seen weighs approx. Females 20-30 lbs Males 25-40 lbs, in generall. IMO The staffords are alot more easygoing then the apbt. But it's basicly the same breed. Take a look at the Colby bloodline, very similiar to the staffords. In the end they are all gamedogs.
Good reads - Thanks
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...501_134715.jpg
This is a Psycho bred dog, with a few small outs of mainly DRS, Duke and some Raparee. 24 Lbs on the scale.
LOL, that sounds like my dogs -- although I am not sure it is due to heavy inbreeding, but merely to selection.Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
Ch Hammer was born 30 years ago, and was a 32-34 lb male ... and now, nearly 3 decades later of line- and inbreeding, my males are from 30-36 lb generally.
Coca Cola was born 20 years ago, and was a 26 lb bitch ... and nor, over 2 decades later of line- and inbreeding, my Coki dogs are from 25-32 lb generally.
Small dogs tend to be faster and more athletic, pound-for-pound, so they're usually the ones selected (though not always).
Jack
Gr Ch Duke was waaaay before my time, so I have little knowledge about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
I believe all his wins were over Staffords, although he was schooled with pitbulls heavier than himself.
There were far more working Staffords about back then, so it may of just been a case of it being easier to match into another Stafford rather than an APBT, as opposed to today where a Stafford meeting another stafford in the [] would be a rarity. Both those modern day Staffords Skipper mention in the other thread had to face and beat APBT's in earning their titles; So they can and do compete with APBT's.
Another great Stafford from around the time of Gr Ch Duke was Scar kennels Gr Ch Rocky 5xw, although a legit Gr Ch he wasn't recognised by the SDJ.
Scar Kennels rated Rocky as being on a par with almost everything they owned in the bulldogs. They had some great bulldogs,which says a whole lot for Rocky.
It was talked on of Rocky meeting Duke but it never came off.
That would be a bitter-sweet pill of two great Staffordshire Bull Terriers meeting ... on the one hand, it would establish which was *the* best, and yet on the other it would (in all probability) remove one of them from the gene pool, or possibly both.
I was wrong in saying great bulldogs. Some were rated very highly & if they were around today then the blood would be sought after. It is not all lost,which is good.
The two Gr Ch staffords were around at a time that most lads were moving across to the bulldogs so were not used in a breeding programme unfortunately. Duke was bred to a very good Ch stafford female but the offspring were not as hoped. He produced several match dogs when bred to a bulldog. The last watered down blood would be coming through a female called Dutch.
Rocky was only bred once,to a bulldog. Produced at least one match dog which lost to a bulldog..
If theere was frozen semen of either dog today then the stafford fanciers would be queueing up.
Interesting anecdote.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
It's sad that, although Duke was bred to a good Staffordsire bitch, it didn't produce very well ... but it's even sadder that they didn't breed the offspring back to Duke. People who really understand breeding know that "ability" can skip a generation, same as nose color or many other traits.
A lot of people "abandon ship" WAY too early in their breeding program, and lose their good blood, because they're not patient/knowledgeable enough to realize that, with a few minor breeding adjustments, you can get the world class ability right back out of your average dogs again ... if world class ability is "in there."
Jack
I don't believe there has been a breeder in that part of the world who has been so focused in a similar way to yourself Jack. I understand what you are saying & agree on your thoughts on putting Duke back to a daughter out of the stafford female. Go from there & run the full litter on would have been a good idea. Also,this would have been the early 80's & a lot of the lads were green,so would have most probably culled any failures. In truth that is what most would do today in that part of
the world,regardless on how they were bred. It is
hard to keep sporting dogs there so any yard
would be limited in size & most lads were moving
over to the bulldogs at that time. Selling the
staffords to help pay for them. You could say the
re-introduction of the bulldog was the beginning
of the end for the sporting stafford. It would have
been interesting if this never happened,where the stafford would be today.
There is still some titled staffords in Europe who
have proven themselves to be good dogs,but there
is a major lack of yards who work them.
Also,don't let the writings mislead you in thinking
there was or is world class staffords who could
compete with likewise bulldogs. World class
staffords yes,but i am pretty sure they would
struggle against a world class bulldog of the same weight.
Rare you get an interest from a bulldog man like yourself,so it is good to see you appreciate the breed.
There is no reason to cull average dogs. A breeder needs to understand that all things revert back to the average, and that all you need to do is re-shuffle the deck, and you'll get your aces again.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
Sure it is better to breed to the ace end of the litter, but great dogs can still come from mediocre ones, if you line up the genes right. Gr Ch Buck, for example, came out of two average linebred Bolio dogs.
I know that all-too-well ... I have sold a ton of dogs I wish I had kept ... and yet I have never had any problem breeding world class dogs from what's right here on the yard either.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
All of these laws are basically doing what they intend to do, and that is exterminating the breed. If things weren't so bad, I would still have 80-100 dogs. But because of the way they are, I have sold-off all my dogs, and mostly provide information about them now. I am sure it is like that over there, and made worse (for the Staffords) by the fact bulldogs are more mainstream. But I really can't tell the difference between a Stafford and a Bulldog, physically!Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
I don't know enough about them to comment, but it sounds like some of them whipped the best bulldogs too. With the right breeding program, and enough specimens, I am sure a good breeder could keep them highly-competitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
I just like game dogs, my friend, and I find it kind of a refreshing change/twist to discuss the history and accomplishments of another (and closely-related) breed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by gabbagabbahey
Jack
The breeding Duke to Ringo's Ruby (a daughter to psycho) produced a couple of winners if I recall correctly. This was way before my time so I have no first hand experience. I have some experience of todays staffords though. I must say, if we take in consideration how few fanciers working and breeding their stock the way it should be done the quality is remarkable high. I'm not saying the staffords are in line with the pitbulls, but the worst dogs I've seen were well bred apbts, not staffords. And as Gaba said, if the fanciers hadn't switched to apbts it would be very interesting to see were the staffords would've been today. I have no doubt they would be as good as the pitbulls.
That is an interesting observation, because I have seen plenty of APBT specimens, off of supposedly "good lines," that were complete and utter garbage. Hell, the worst Poncho dogs are at least game bums!Quote:
Originally Posted by skipper
So it is kind of a key statement that the staffords never really dip as low as some of the bulldogs get. And if some of the staffords are still competitive, then I don't have any doubts either that at least a small breeding group could be established and developed into a consistently-good strain.
Jack
This is a story about a very good Staffordshire Bull Terrier,his owner & his offspring. He was not as well known as other Ch Staffords but maybe that was because his owner never reported matches. His name is Ch Oscar & he was of pure kennel club show lines.
He was campaigned by one of the best conditioners in the North Of Ireland & regarded as one of the best by the people who had the pleasure seeing him perform.
Well,here we go..............
Oscar was so strong & agile & could really barnstorm. Starting on the head,he would shake the sense out of an opponent & when he had one down & disorientated,he would move into the chest & shoulders,driving deep to really send the shock home. He almost always got 1st hold & could turn over any size opponent very quickly.
His daughter Squaw & his gr-son Archie had similar style. When Squaw was matched at 29lb into Fran's Murdock at 36lb (because at the time,no one would match into Squaw at any weights) she totally outfought him for 50min,keeping him down on the defensive & taking punishment until the weight difference began to tell & she was picked up at 1hr 11min. Murdock later won against McGuinnan's dog at 37lb in 1hr 38min !!!!
Ten years previous to these matches,Oscar was the dog they were all trying to beat. He was open to any dog at any weight. Nothing was written down,but this is how it was remembered by his owner & the ones that saw him go.
His 1st was into his gr-sire Rory who was never beaten until he met Oscar & Rory had fought all over Northern Ireland. After the match (which Oscar dominated) Rory's owner who was an icon in the staffords at that time,shook Oscar's owners hand in front of all the spectators & declared "the king is dead,long live the king". This mean't a lot to Oscar's owner,back in 1975.
His 2nd was into Locke's Rebel who also was a very good dog. He was the only one to stand toe to toe with Oscar,but after the first 10min or so,Oscar's great footwork & strength put him on top & Rebel was eventually picked up.
His 3rd was into Goose's Sultan who was like the previous two opponents,unbeaten (none of these dogs were ever beaten by another dog). Oscar barnstormed Sultan into being picked up without ever making a bad sign or turn.
When Oscar was later sold for breeding at 6 1/2yr old,supposedly into retirement,his new owners hooked him up once again into Rebel as Rebels owners thought they could beat him without the conditioning of Oscar's original owner. They were wrong & lost again.
By the time Oscar reached 7 1/2yr old his new owner hooked him into a young up & coming dog called Super Sam who was a couple pound bigger. This was a very close match & although Oscars original owner was not there,he got the report from both sides,who agreed to a draw at 1hr 15min. Super Sams owner felt lucky to have got a draw & never took him out again.
Oscars daughter Squaw had her 1st outing against a bigger red bitch,stopping her in 7min.
One day when Squaws owner was rolling dogs,Squaw stopped 3 Tandragee bitches in a row. All being heavier than herself. After this she was rolled into a 34lb dog called Paint & for 20min he was taking stick,but his owner was happy with his gameness !! Imagine game testing a 34lb dog with a 29lb bitch ?
The next for Squaw was Patches,owned by JD at 30lb tops. Patches had got some reputation for bite & agility. The Farmer Boys would not risk a match so they asked Squaws owner to take the show on with Squaw. Patches quit in 21min.
After this no one would have anything to do with Squaw & on one occassion the Farmer Boys were asked if they would match between 28-32lb. They asked if it was Squaw & knowing them boys had access to plenty of stock which was farmed out all over the place,they could not find a single dog between 28-32lb. In desperation,Squaw was matched into Murdock at 36lb.
Squaw was sold at 5yr old & thats when the young boys bred her to Fred (gr-son to Rory) to get Archie. Squaw was rolled on a regular basis to assess the ability of other dogs & this is where her original owner went back in & bought her back to live her days out.
The Boneyard Boy's were to join up with Squaws owner & had a 2 or 3xw called Nellie who was a Stafford x EBT cross,which they could not get hooked up. Squaws owner decided to go into Nellie with Squaw who was now 7 1/2yr old.
Early on in her keepit was noticed that Squaws wind was wrong. She would work fine for 15-20min,but then start hacking for breath. Her owner was convinced that the last owners had been rolling her & choking her off,instead of using sticks & the cartilage in her trachia had thickened up or scarred.
Anyhow for the 1st 15min of the match Squaw totally outclassed Nellie,until her wind went & she became cyanosed. Her tongue was out & blue. Nellie was able to get off her back & get to Squaws legs. At around 25min Squaw was too far into oxygen dept to recover while trying to fight Nellie,who was very game & would not be disabled to stop her. Squaw was picked up & RB tried frantically to get a side bet of 100uk that Squaw would courtesy,which of course she did. She flew across !!
Her son Archie was tested on many occasions & won one match.
Archie in his turn produced a couple of game ones too. Only one reached the pit called Paddy & he lost to an APBT due to Paddys owner being a novice & picking up Paddy while he was winning.
Paddys litter sister Dollar on her turn produced a game bitch called Dutch when mated to Buster who was a son of Docks Gr Ch Duke.
Dutch was tested by Bayfarm's & bred from several times until she was sold to FFB who on their turn bred her to a 1xw called Jack.
At the same time Oscars bloodline is still alive in Ireland. Archie's last mating to Dutch's sister produced some fair stock also.
***This article was copied from a magazine. The owner of them staffords was a huge miss to the breed i feel. His dogs were never for sale or stud & he never sought any recognition of any kind. As honest as the day is long,in my opinion & that trait is as hard to find as a great stafford***
Great read gabba. Thnx for sharing.
This is only my personal observation and opinion. Would be great to hear what others have to say. Although they most often aren't as good as the best apbts. I have never seen one that where complete garbage. The main thing that the staffords seem to lack is natural air. I haven't seen enough to make a general observation for the whole breed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CA Jack
Great read Gabba.