Brood stock

[RFK]

Historically bro x sis breedings are regarded as brood stock which is understandable nething how only ch 357 turned out to be any good in that department my question is I see Alot of Pple once they do that type of breeding to create their brood stock than they go and outcross it to some complete other bloodline. What's the point I like to tighten up on what I have and than hit it with a cousin for instance I hit my machobuck blood with my shybaby Gaston blood it all goes back to buck x dasiey next I want to hit my yard with some queen of hearts bull blood if I can get my hands on it. I feel by staying within the same family but different strains allows me to breed tight and still get show dogs

[STONEWALL]

"It all boils down to SELECTION.

Jack"

Bottom line.

[apeman]

bump up for 2020...

[Frank43]

good post. Let me see if I can use spacing and punctuation as was recommended with me.

I’m considering a brother sister for the following reason. To lock in traits. The dogs I’m thinking about are still young. Like 357 similar cross different dogs. Rbj bt.

These are the reasons I would do it. One little female out of the litter has the rbj fire, work ethic, athleticism from somewhere, brains, she uses her head when some loose it. She even looks like Butkus to me. She has a brother I have mentioned earlier. Super smart, a little later starter, early indications that he can close his jaws, he keeps his head when it’s rough, he has the rbj wind. His problem is a more narrow backend. Maybe the backend improves with age. I’m expecting it to be one of the things that presents in the pups. It’s something I would be looking to sort through early. I found out another sister with a better backend may also be able to close it. I still swear I hear her wheezing when she was born. I haven’t worked her so I don’t know what her exercise tolerance is All three got some bolio tombstone smarts. These are some things to consider. Hopefully I could get brood female out of this.

Time will tell. I’m waiting awhile. One of the common threads of people that get jammed up is they end up with too many dogs not fed and cared for correctly.

I look at gaston’s foundation and 357 what he produced. Trying to lock in the positives of both bloodlines seems like it’s worth the risk. Then as you mentioned. Cross to a related dog. Machobear semen, little john junior, puma, rocky redman. There are some pockets of Gaston blood out there.

[Devildog5811]

I completely agree, successful inbreeding is all about rigorous selection, and starting with the best possible genetic material. I always remember the story of Cleopatra when it comes to inbreeding. In genetics you can't breed out unwanted traits you can only suppress them(make them recessive) , sooner or later if you don't select properly they will come out .Cleopatra was supposedly the most beautiful woman in the world, she was a product of incest, her brother was the complete opposite he was born with physical deformities. Great read .

[ROCK-MACHINE]

A great little thread, I recommend reading Animal Breeding Plans by Jay Laurence Lush, it can be a bit heavy at times but is a fascinating read just the same.

https://ia801602.us.archive.org/24/i...l-Breeding.pdf

[Frank43]

That’s some damn good reading. It’s crazy how stuff like that was written 100 years ago and it’s still true.

Here’s a judgement question. I had a foundation male get lost unexpectedly. He was a solid dog. He threw some of the traits he had with consistency to the litter he had. The breeding was basically an outcross breeding. My plan was to breed towards the middle of the two and towards the mother. He threw strength, work ethic, gameness.

Here is the management decision. I have his daughters and sons. One daughter is like him with some brains of his mother. One son seemed to be dumb game like him. Another fiery and has some talent. The other I kept is more towards the mother. I can do some brother sister breedings with some of sons. Pull offspring that were like him.

I could try to recreate him. He was 1/4 Hollingsworth bull 1/4 tant 1/2 Waccamaw. He has a brother I could breed to. Half Hollingsworth bull half tant. Use him straight. Or what I’m leaning towards doing. Get a cottingham female. Breed her to his uncle. Hopefully get the work ethic drive and strength get some more athleticism and smaller dogs. Try to buy the mom and breed to the uncle or make a deal to breed the uncle back to him. He threw some well built strong af kids. He couldn’t keep teeth in his mouth and could be stupid hot. The female he bred is half cold and smart with finish so they worked well.

Breeders what would you do. This is the stuff that isn’t in the books. I had some breeding plans. Honestly I was planning to back cross into kids of his kids to put fire in them.

[Frank43]

I go back and re-read these things a lot. There is a lot of wisdom in them. Its hard to find people to talk to about some of this. On the topic of brother sister. ch 357 was a brother sister breeding . It was off an outcross of 100% unrelated animals. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=329

Brother and sister in types of inbreedings is the highest.

Why did it work in this case and so so in the poncho/missy litter. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=224

the coefficients are I think around 9 percent on the inbreeding calculator. I wonder if functionally its higher because most of them go back to Patrick breedings of bolio and tombstone. Ch Butkus had a coefficient of .56% at 10 generations. If I was trying to lock in traits in two different lines that found their way into individuals your highest chance to get one in an individual is a brother sister.

Opinons?

[bossman311]

The Dogs will tell you which ones to breed to based on performance even when sticking within your own family of dogs.

But even with that being said there are age old breeding schemes and patterns that will allow you to know without a doubt how to keep certain traits while introducing new ones.

Brother and sister's breeding IMO lose more than 1/2 brother and sisters.
You may double the good but you will tripple the bad.
That's a given.

It's more to getting a brood dog just becuase you bred a brother and sister or any other inbred type.
People use the term brood over foundation these dyas it seems .

It's keeping your foundation with vigor that will keep them going more than jamming them up to try and take short cuts.

A well bred line bred dog using the 1/2 brother and sister method over and over aka using a pattern, can and will give you better results than just brother and sister for the sake of brother and sister.

Years ago a well known dogman and I had a convo and both agreed in most cases allot or just too lazy to take the time needed to put it together and just do the brother and sister than line breeding the 1/2 brother and sister.
Those take more planing and time to see what 1/2 sibling worhs the best with each other.
What's and top and what's on bottom makes a big difference even with 1/2 siblings.

Breedings are trial and erra but that still does not mean just breed 2 dogs together because the are related.
I bred plenty of dogs to know it's better in the long run to keep the hybred vigor from line breeding than it is just to assume the traits will be .

It's maintaining the base /foundation that will keep them going more than just trying short cuts and breeding brother and sister.

It does not matter what few full brother and sisters breeding did good it's more that did not.
don't need to have lesser dogs as broods.

It's about keeping you good key dog on both top and bottom of each dog in each generation when breeding with vigor as much as possible.

It's and easy to read pedigree with a clear and distinct breeding scheeme(pattern) and in all of these generations on 1 full brother and sister (Hicks Mason) was done in this dogs history becuase his grand parents were not bred tight .

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=88556

[Frank43]

I guess I look at it like music or something. Are you memorizing licks or using notes to speak what needs to come out. I haven't done a brother sister. I would do any breeding at any time depending on what I need. When you do them you need to know why snd what the downsides are. I could do a brother sister off my stoic dog to his sister lyudmila. They are outcross dogs. They share Hollingsworth bull as a common ancestor. I think the brother sister worked with 357 because they were an outcross off two completely unrelated lines. Vice grip did one. Said he had good dogs and some genetic problems.

The tight breedings I did exposed some palate issues. Gap over and underbite. My line was traditionally best to best loose line breeding. There are probably a lot of deleterious recessives in there. Gap under and over bites are natures way of culling. If a female can't cut the cord the pup may die maybe her.

I don't know what the next styles of breeding I'll do. I tightened up on a few individuals snd they are vigorous. I have been looking for complimentary outcrosses. Next phase will be rolling these back in mother son father daughter. Half brother sister.

I would still like to thank titan and garner for the dogs they gave me. The shit you go through with these dogs. It's like giving your kids to someone. Crews too but I have to go back and replace a pup. I hear you on the dogs letting toy know what breedings you. Need. It's crazy how one will make you rearrange your long term plan.

As for the brother sister thing. You do them for a reason. I guess you have to do it like a man and deal with the consequences. When I triple bred Abner. I needed a male Clo. Plus I wanted more machobuck Hollingsworth. I needed it to throw. I triple crossed it. Sound dogs. Good temperaments. Good maternal characteristics out of the mom. She had six pups. I watched the birth number go from 11 or 13 to six. She laid on three. One had a gap underbite. Abner was outstanding to me and so damn dominant. Caleb was a good dog. I had to get him away from Abner. When you weigh a stud that produces vs cold or pup that don't make grade. I would rather breed to higher percentages. I know that Abner has less chance to throw bad underbites and his structure and Temprament is solid.

For me the garners titere cross is needed. New genes and vigor. Garner has triple bred pups out of titere and they are dropping 13 still. Titere was damn near scatterbred. He's bringing some uniformity to it. I'm good with 6-8 well bred uniform pups.

So for me. 50/50 Hollingsworth titere are prob up. Maybe some father son mother daughter after that. I can post the peds. Damn I'm not wanting to post them as much much now. I'm in the lab. Maybe a rational strategy being put out is better for the breed. I have to tell myself. You can't control everything and hopefully it will come back to you.

I'll post some of those peds later.