J. Carver's Satchmo stud dog

[CYJ]

Never hurts to ask. Anyone by chance have a picture of J. Carver's Satchmo stud dog that was the sire of the famous Jim Williams' Paladin dog?

Seen pictures of Ronnie Hyde's M. Carver Satch stud dog. Would love to see one of ole Satch Mo.

[Officially Retired]

I noticed you changed the sire of Ch Paladin in the database, and that you provided notes to justify it.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, if you are 100% sure your information is correct, then it is an interesting tidbit of history regarding our breed from an old timer who was there.

On the other hand, I can't just have everyone who "heard a story" about such-and-such dog go to changing any pedigree in here they feel like changing. I hope you understand what I mean.

Williams' Ch Paladin is a pretty important dog, so I am going to have to rub my chin on this one. Maybe I could put the "accepted" pedigree back up there, and just leave your additional information in the notes.

Thanks for letting us all know,

Jack

BTW: I took the liberty of adding the appropriate dog links to your post, so people can see the difference.

[CYJ]

Ditto Jack that is fine. Fill free to put it back as was. I did hold and see those papers. Jim was proud of his newly bought dog. At that time I only knew of M. Carver and had not heard of a Jack Carver. So I assume Paladin came from M. Carver, but may have come from J. Carver.

M. Carver was present and may have supplied the dog to try and beat Paladin in one of Paladin's matches. Which I thought was a strange thing to do. But overtime it was a lot of Carver dogs pulling against Carver dogs. Did not go as planned and asked I believe, Irish Jerry to pick up the losing Carver dog. That other Paladin ped with picture is a duplicate with No Off Spring. I have already moved them over to the other Paladin dog.

I owned at one time a young black bitch off Paladin. I farmed her out to M. Hill for awhile. This dog was a nice looking well built young bitch. But was around 65 pounds on the chain. I could feed three medium size dogs for what she was eating.

Mr. Brantley Miller probably did the most breedings to Paladin. Jack West a friend of Jackie Spruill had the Nuts dog that was off Paladin and C. Middleton's Betty. Another was Cottingham Brother's Cotton dog. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Thanks again, J.

Again, I have mixed feelings on this. There are a few dogs on here where I myself have changed their pedigrees, when I *knew* the breeding was different ... AND I personally had confirmation from the breeder as to the paper-hang (or mistake). On the other hand, I have left breedings alone (where I would bet my life the pedigree was different), but hadn't ever gotten actual confirmation from the breeder or someone directly in the know.

For example, I wrote a huge article The Truth About Mason's CH Hammer, and I absolutely believe CH Hammer is really off of Reuben, but yet (because I never got direct confirmation of this theory) I have left CH Hammer's pedigree alone in the database here.

By contrast, with Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs, and with STP's GR CH Buck, I have direct information from Patrick (that I have recorded on tape) admitting to the fact both dogs were really off of Little Tater ... *and* that Cheryl Tiegs' mama, Tessy, was a sister to Wichita's CH Blaze, and therefore off of Reuben/Blitz also. Buck looks virtually identical to his half-sister Lady In Red (and all the Hollingsworth dogs) because because both mamas were a large, red-rednose bitches ... whereas Cheryl Tiegs came out a squat, piss-mean little buckskin bitch because she carried such heavy Boomer/Carver blood from Hammer's sister.

In fact, Cheryl Tiegs is bred almost identical to Poncho's sister Missy (if you replace BBB with Reuben in Hammer's ped)... and in fact is a little fat clone of my Missy ... and they are bred virtually identical

Cheryl Tiegs is off of Little Tater bred to CH Hammer's sister ... and Missy is off of CH Hammer bred to a 3/4 Lady In Red bitch (who was off of Little Tater). And that blood, and that "look" is VERY prepotent in throwing itself ... and so it only makes sense, genetically, that these two bitches look alike, and they damned sure do:

Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs



Vise-Grip's Missy

But back to the point. I did NOT change CH Hammer's pedigree only because I never got a 100% confirmation that it was falsified ... but I DID change Cheryl Tiegs' breeding on the database (as well as Buck's) because Pat Patrick admitted this to me directly, back when we were friends, and so my information was NOT hearsay or speculation. Only much later, long after we had a falling out, did I start to realize that CH Hammer was probably falsified also, but by then Patrick and I were no longer on good terms, and so I could never get him to admit the truth. Still, my 23 years of breeding nothing but these dogs, and seeing how prepotent the combination was, told me what's true in my bones. Read the article and be convinced

Therefore, with your amendment to the pedigree of CH Paladin, because in your case you also claim to have seen this disparity directly, and because you have been such a positive, constructive member of the community here, I will let the pedigree stand as you have changed it.

So thanks again,

Jack

[CYJ]

If some one can find or has a accurate photo picture of Jack Carver's Satchmo stud dog. That would solve the mystery for good.

Your Vise Grip's Missy is a fine looking bitch dog. That is the way I liked them built. Missy looks like a very strong dog with a fast mouth. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

If some one can find or has a accurate photo picture of Jack Carver's Satchmo stud dog. That would solve the mystery for good.
Your Vise Grip's Missy is a fine looking bitch dog. That is the way I liked them built. Missy looks like a very strong dog with a fast mouth. Cheers

You have a good eye, CYJ.

While her brother Poncho was a long-winded tactician with average mouth, Missy was a devastating face dog that fractured skulls and muzzles every time she bit them. If she shook your front leg, it was a wet noodle when she was done, and you weren't using it anymore. She had 5 bitches her weight picked up in :12 or less, and the one the made it to :20 didn't make it to the next morning. You could literally see air bubbles coming out of the muzzle, or between the eyes, of every bitch she ever got on.

Only one bitch her weight stretched her out ... who was a giant at that weight ... and Missy gassed out and was stretched out (in 100 degree weather) ... but was still scratching like a bazooka, only to collapse again. It took that other bitch a week to walk without assistance ... while Missy was just exhausted. If they would have been in shape, and it had been cold weather, that bitch wouldn't have lived either.

Jack

[CYJ]

Ditto Jack. If to many feel other wise. Put it back to off Iron Head. Do not wish to create a lot of arguing problems. I no longer have my older Pete Spark's books. Seems Iron Head was around in the Early to late 60's. Later on in the late 70's and 80's, would see dogs shown right up off Iron Head. But the dog by then was long dead. In my Chuck dog's pedigree, Iron Head was back there 4 or more generations which made more sense. We have to walk in today's sunshine. Probably half of all our pedigrees are wrong way back there some where. The Dibo line has always been popular. But if you have the older books and read about some of the dogs used. Many had quit but bred any way.

I have seen recent pedigrees that are very impressive and not saying they are not true. Then I would see some with lots of dog men names unknown to me. When traced far enough would see a good blended family of good dogs that was popular in my time era. Where they show up in the generation line up makes more sense. Example would be the McCool -Young-Thibodeaux blood lines. If the dog man named Young was a white guy and from Texas. May have been some kin. Some of the Young family settled in Texas. LOL

The Cardenas, Morfin dogs having been crossed with Fontenot and Creel dogs I like. That dog called Mac-11's Goat, in it's 14 generation study keyed to Boudreaux' Blind Billy 2062 times. May not mean much, but to me was very impressive.

The only consistent bred dogs over time that appeared to have the paper work correct. Was the Colby dogs and the Heinzl dogs. A lot of individuals who kept it straight today had to start with their own personal yard. One was my good friend Tar Heel Matt. There are many like yourself and other dog men posting on here that have as well. Cheers