I will start this thread by posting what is said to be the true pedigree of arts missy and littermates gr ch davis boomerang and ron petronellis fox , as stated by ed crenshaw.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...2&dam_id=31515
I will start this thread by posting what is said to be the true pedigree of arts missy and littermates gr ch davis boomerang and ron petronellis fox , as stated by ed crenshaw.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...2&dam_id=31515
This is another dog whos true pedigree is supposed to be this one below in the pedigree , its patricks tombstone .
The reasons as to why this is more than likely the true pedigree i will try to explain, and the first thing is that don maloney had a deal with earl tudor that any pups out of earls pure females like baby he was supposed to tell him about before dealing them out to anyone without earls say so, and as such if tombstone was out of baby then don maloney would have been in trouble from earl and earl known that maloney had dealth tombstone to ron petronelli wihtout him being told about it.
Another reason is that don mayfield always felt that tombstone was out of one of earls pure bitches that maloney had on his yard as explained above but was never able to completely get the truth out of maloney to be sure and as such he never bred tombstone into his dogs ,but he felt sure tombstone wasnt out of the bitch speedy allens jena .Don had something like 400 plus audio tapes that he had from his telephone conversations with dogmen like maloney and many others from those years , including earl tudor and carver etc etc , and althoguh i only have a mere handfull of thsoe audios tapes , i do have around 15 of them which include such rarities as conversations with earl tudor and carver and don maloney , where don is talking to maloney about the tombstone dog he got from ron petronelli who originally got the dog from don maloney, and in the conversation maloney seems to slip up and tell don mayfield that tombstone is out of the same dam as his nigger dog , which is baby , which to don made more sense to him as tombstone showed to be a very famly bred dog , not just in his gamness but in his subsequent proudcing abilty later on for pat patrick , to whom he later sold tombstone .Well in the same conversation maloney then catches himself and says to mayfield that tombstone is out of the jena bitch, but eventhough don was sure he wasnt out of her but out of baby , he didnt want ot take the chance to breed him into his line just incase it was true as he didnt want any part of the jena bitch in his line ,so he later sold him to pat patrick with the option that he had breeding rights to the dog ,he dint tell patrick this , but it was incase he was able to prove 100% that tombstone was out of baby and could then breed to him at a later stage if he wanted to.
Years later and on another telephone conversation , from a man who don didnt know and was from arkansas i think , he memtioned to don about tombstone, and that at the time that tombstone was supposed to be whelped out of gena this man told don she was on another mans yard and could in no way have been whelping tombstone on don maloneys yard , and of course confirming dons gut feeling of how tombstone was truly bred but of course it was many years too late .
I wish and hope i could still get more of those audio tapes, as they are the jewels that are really worth having , and although i like many other have all his video tapes also, the audios where he talks to these other dogmen recording them so as to have a record of their conversations ,so as in the case of tombstone to try to get to the truth on many things especially true breedings etc , and with earl he would take his tape recorder down to earls place and earl was happy to talk with don and those audios are like goldust for anyone in the dogs to learn and understand more about the game and the men who played it in those years that we all look back at as the golden generation of the game when tudor was still alive and breeding through to mayfield maloney carver burton and many more great characters and dogmen of the game, and i hope i can get more of those audios , i would like them all , but im happy to have the ones i do have as even in these few i have theres some of the most interesting conversations, two of which i have mentioned in this post about the true pedigree of patricks tombstone and i hope you enjoyed it regardless of whether you believe this pedigree is the true one or the one maloney put on tombstone .
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...37&dam_id=1628
You guys sure tell and assume lots of stuff. Tombstone was bred like Maloney said. He wasn't always honest but in this case he was. I was there and saw Toot in the pen with Gina hungup and lots of those dogs have her body shape. If I remember correctly Gina was a red brindle dog but it has been years so I could be wrong. That man that had Gina I think she won two fights and that man had lots of winners and his dogs were tested hard. Davis is a dog in question. Yet he could be out of Toot. Who knows on that one. His dam was in the pen with two different males being bred. Charley Adkisson and I went out there one monday she was in with toot. When we went out there on thursday the dam was in with a De cordova dog called Rusty. When Maloney had Toot and Genia. There were no pure Tudor females at that time at his home. I know I was there. Gina was a two time winner. Don Maloney had a friend that he was real close with. I saw him several times at Maloney's home. He wasn't a bulldog man. He told me that him and Maloney went to Diffenbach's home to buy a pup. Diffenbach was gone so he ask Don which one he like and he pointed a Toot. So I grabbed it up and carried it to the truck. He said that is the truth about Toot. Maloney told him you need to keep your mouth shut.The first six years Toot was registered out of Jeff and then later on he was registered out of Spike. I think it was because Diffenbach had died but I'm not sure the true reason. That litter was supposedly off Spike. I got one thng to say to you guys. If you were not there and if you didn't see the breeding you can't say the pedigree is wrong.. No matter what anyone tells you. Don't go around swearing you know because you don't. Mayfield was a nice fellow. He hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better. I had several of those dog right off Nigger and top bred female all but one quit. Maloney and Tommy Sherwood fought two dog for over two hours. Earl liked Sherwood's dog. Maloney told several people that Nigger was off that dog of Sherwoods. He said Earl brought Nigger's Dam over and bred to that Brindle dog of Sherwoods. Nigger threw lots of Brindle dogs. So it might be true or it might not. I didn't see the4 breeding so who knows if it true or not. What a bunch of silly assumptions you guys swear to. I'm done
Randy your a right in that we should never say that something is for sure, but neither should anyone, tombstone may be out of gina, but maloney had baby on his yard , and i think you know the deal he had with earl about anything form his pure females, and maloney was known as a slippery one , so who knows, but then we have an audio tape which i have heardOriginally Posted by Foxman
with mayfield and maloney just after mayfield got tombstone from ron , and on that audio tape maloney tells mayfield, (well hes mommas the same as the old nigger dog you got don, then some few minutes later he must realsie and changes it to the gina bitch .
Now im not going to say your msitaken randy cos i wasnt there when maloney bred toot to whatever female, and he may as you said have had gina on his yard at the time , but that dont prove he bred to her , infact like most folks who understand breeding as i know you do , and jack does and mayfield did, the breeding to gina didnt make sense, but the toot baby one did, it was the right way to breed them dogs and the sensible way, but maybe he did breed to gina if she was on his yard.
Now on another tape from a call mayfield had from a dogman in arkansas i think , who don didnt know personally and who had called him up to talk about the dogs, this man talked about how when gina was supposed to whelping tombstone on maloneys yard she was on another mans yard in another state, which of course was to late for mayfield as tombstone was dead and could not breed to him anymore.SO its all about what makes sense and circimstanstial evidence , but i tend to favour baby as the dam. but as you say anythings possible.
Randy im sure you read most if not all of the posts on this thread ,so i will assume you read mine about how i belive that floyd
lied about blind billy , and as such would mean that elis pedigree is also fake, and that mayfield is more than likely correct about both of those dogs, unknown and true heritage.
Floyds own words and timeline of dobs for both billy and his sire dibo along with the facts we know about when tudor got dibo would make it immposible for dibo to have been the sire of blind billy , and i know it hurts many dogmen who have had
a run in with mayfield in the past to say yes he was correct on something ,but i think that with the blind billy /eli story ,no one needs to be a freind or enemy of either man to see which one is lying or incorrect , floyd does that to himself and i would hope randy that you are able to agree with that even if it hurts to say so.
As for you saying that mayfield hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better , well why dont you explain what you mean, im sure don was no angel, but i dont think he needed to lie about his yard or how his nigger dogs were bred , and we heard how maloney was a jealous man and started lots of strories about nigger , and we can be far more sure of how nigger is bred which i think is well known and maloney as i mentioned earlier even tells mayfield that tombstone has the same dam as his nigger dog , which was baby so that kind of shows maloney for the kind of man he was , which from all accounts he wasnt a very honest guy and petty sneaky type of guy, but thats the dog game .
Okay, now, on the Ed Crenshaw breeding up top, I have never heard that about Boomer. What I do know is Ed Crenshaw had some white dogs, and many heavy Boomer dogs are known to be white, so there is some circumstantial evidence to support this theory.
On the Tombstone dog, I am one more you can add to the list of people who believe he was brother/sister bred off of Toot & Ch Baby
Speedy Allen's Gina makes no sense, both as a breeding as well as why top dogmen would have it, use it, etc.
By contrast, a bother/sister breeding of Spike/Black Widow dogs explains why Tombstone was so game, and it also explains why he was such a prepotent producer.
And now I am going to throw in another fake breeding that "I heard of" (and believe) and that is the true breeding on Honeybunch. I am one of the many people who believes Honeybunch was NOT really off of Bullyson. To the best of my knowledge, all Bullyson ever threw were Black dogs. He was a black dominant AA dog and it was genetically impossible for him to throw anything else, no matter what he was bred to. (Sons/daughters of Bully could, if he was bred to red/buckskin dogs, but anything off of Bully directly had to be black.) That said, my belief is that Honeybunch was a father/daughter breeding of Carver's Amber bred back to her father Cracker (making her 3/4 Dibo/Black Widow, 1/4 Rascal/Black Widow, and Rascal is Dibo's 1/2-brother). I forget where I heard this, but this breeding did happen, and it also makes more "genetic sense" than Bullyson to Amber. It also explains why Honeybunch was such a great producer.
That's my $0.02.
Jack
The next dog that has a disputed pedigree is boudreaux's blind billy , this pedigree below is how floyd has him bred , and then we can look at the reality of whether that is true or not.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...php?dog_id=165
What i would like to do is put my evidence or theory forward to prove that blind billy was not bred as floyd says , but infact
was as many dogmen of the time thought , of unknown breeding .If blind billy was not bred as floyd says, then that would lead us onto how ELI is bred and floyds whole family of dogs from that time forward , but lets start with blind billy, and for that we have to start with tudors dibo.
Tudors dibo was born on 1951-03-21 and we know from the story of dibo that he never went to tudor untill he was around
3 years old , which would make the date for him arriving on tudors yard no earlier than late 1953 to sometime in 1954 .
Now if we use floyds own words from his interview in the times jan-feb edition 1989 ,where he states that blind billy was born in 1952 and he got him in 1953 by trading earl tudor some rooster for him, then i think its fair to say that it would be
very unlikley that dibo could ever be the sire to blind billy , and is far more likely to be a dog of unknown heritage as suspected at the time .
Now with that in place i would like to move on to the ELI dog , who is supposed to be out of blind billy ,which with the above info in place looks very unlikely also. Before i go on and psot what is belived to be the true breeding of the ELI dog,
i would like to post this story by don mayfield about the ELi dog as this should help to give anyone not familiar with the
story something more to go on.
THIS BELOW STORY OF ELI BY DON MAYFIELD
Let me begin at the beginning when I first started in the game. One of my first friends in the game was Floyd Boudreaux. Floyd and I got together right away, he had not won any matches and I showed up to my first match with gameness and conditioning and Floyd and I became close friends in the '60s and traveled the road together and spoke on the phone very often.
When I had the bitch Cry Baby in 1965, my wife and I got separated for a while and I took Cry full of pups over to Floyd's so he would care for her until she whelpped in 2 weeks. I got the Cry bitch from George Gillman and Curly Hayes. They had bought her from Evelyn Start after she had won a match with her and they went on to win one or two more with Cry after that before I dealed for her.
I called Floyd after the date she was due to whelp and he told me that all of her pups were born dead. But when I went to get Cry back after 7 or 8 weeks it was obvious that she had whelped her pups and had been nursing them till about a week or two before I went to pick her up at Floyd's. I looked real good but I never said anything about it to Floyd.
About 2 years later, Floyd showed up at pitside with the Eli dog. When Eli's match started, Curly Hayes came up to me and said, "Don, you told me that all of Crys pups had died", and I said "Curley, thats what Floyd told me but I got eyes and I can see". It was the fact that Eli looked more like a twin to his dam than he did her son that gave him away. Later, Leo Kinard came up to me and said "Don, where did Floyd get the BLACK dog? did Cry have her pups on Floyd's yard?"
A while after that some in the game like Leo Kinard and Junior Bush told some others that Floyd had told them that Eli was was out of Cry, and some years later Sonny Sykes told me that he had seen Cry at Floyd's with her pups nursing off her and Floyd had let him take his pic of the litter. There were 6 in that litter and 2 of them were matched that I know of and one of them was called Ellis' Pistol. Sonny told me that after Eli had won his first match Floyd came up to him and said that Eli was the pup he had picked out of the litter but had never come to get.
After that incident Floyd and I had our falling out and ended our friendship.
The hardest and gamest dogs I seen produced by Eli were when he was bred to bitches off the Corvino family by John Cotton and Junior Bush. All of them were game winners and I always believed that the dog Zebo was one of them when Eli was stolen from John Cotten's yard and taken to Indian Sonnys yard in California where he was bred.
According to this version of the breeding of Eli, his true ped would be:
....................Langham's Cotton
.........Little Cotton
....................Dolan's Lady
...Eli
....................Tudor's Dibo
.........Cry Baby
....................Tudor's Dinah
This is the full pedigree of the believed to be true breeding of ELI below .
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...3&dam_id=14044
Now as you can see from the story mayfield tell us that crybaby who was a black female by the way would have
whelped ELI in 1965 , so blind billy if he was even alive in 1965 would have been at least 12 years old , which
although doesnt rule him out under normal circumstances, i do believe with the unlikely possibility that blind billy
is bred as floyd says he is, it would be even less likely that he is the sire of ELI .
The story tell us and others have also over the years said that they had known that ELI was out of the crybaby littter,
and infact sonny sykes told of how floyd did offer him a pick from the litter which confirms dons story also .The other thing
is that floyd never had any black dogs before ELI ,and over the next few years from ELI onwards floyds whole line became
a predominately black line of dogs , which when you add up all the other evidence from blind billy on , it makes more sense.
I think that if we believe that blind billy was not bred like floyd says based on the evidence we have , then it stands to
reason that ELI and floyds whole family of dogs is not desended from blind billy ,but from the little cotton and crybaby litter
themselves .
Very interesting read ProjectX.
Makes a lot of since about the Tombstone and Honeybunch dogs.
What doesn't make since is WHY would so many dogmen of the past switch up pedigrees on bulldogs? I realize there were far less dogs, and one would want to stay ahead of the game by keeping recipes secret. But why not just choose not to disclose the pedigree?
It just seems such a dishonest practice.
Not to take anything away from any of the dogmen mentioned, as they are mostly just legends in the dust to most of us now. But imagine how much more great they would be if controversy didn't follow them.
Thanks sb , but what do you think about the blind billy ELI theory looking at the facts, its a shame that floyd or any other dogman would do that , but maybe the difference here between say carver being dishonest of faking peds
was more about either not wanting others to know the true breeding so he himself could repeat it , and also that as with bullyson and other flavour of the month dogs he would fake peds to sell you the pedigree or flavour of the month so to speak rather than to claim a line as his own , or to pass it off as sometihng that only he had a hand in and no other man.
Floyd on the other hand seems to have done his ped faking in this case to take credit for the line or not to give credit to another man , in this case mayfield , as both crybaby and little cotton were mayfields at the time and he made the breeding , but that type of ped faking seems worse to me than what carver did , as he wasnt claiming the breedings he faked peds on like carver did with ironhead or bullyson breedings etc which is still unacceptable done on the industrial scale carver did it on , floyds ped faking was claiming that a whole line was bred down from his own breeding ,as floyd seems to have done starting with the fake blind billy pedigree which led onto ELI and then the family of dogs we call the boudreaux family of dogs which definetly takes the shine from the mans legend status , but it shouldnt surpirse any of us that this happens, its called taking a short cut and most definetly dishonest .
Bobby halls bullyson dogs are even black til this day! I think those guys wrote up peds of whatever the buyer wanted man they didn't give a fuck back then noe was there any Internet or fast way to prove anything so....
i wouldnt beleive a word out of mayfirlds mouth
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