How do you see these styles or strategies?
I see them as different, but have had some guys argue a dog that eats the face of a hog is a head dog. I don't see it that way at all. The Red Rock dogs are known for fighting the face of a pig and they do have head dogs in their lineage.
Of course, I think I'm right, as we all do at times, but would like to hear thoughts on this one. Especially Jack, since the head dog is his fav!
A head/face dog is a head/face dog whether he eats??? it or not. What's the point of arguing which term to use.
A: wow that was a nasty facedog
B: hold up, that's not a facedog that's a head dog because i saw him eating a piece of his cheek.
A: no
B: yes
A: ok let's drink a beer
B: no really look it up chapter 7 second paragraph...
A: cheers
The face = part of the head ... therefore, a face dog = a head dog.
Face dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Ear dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Cheek/jaw dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Mouth-fighting dogs are a "small circle" within the "big circle" of head dogs.
Etc.
To say any of these dogs are NOT "fighting the head" in some spot is simply to be unaware of basic anatomy ...
However, to say you prefer X type of head dog, over another "type" of head dog, is something worthy of discussion ...
But to deny that any of these spots are "on the head" is absurd.
My own view, as a head-dog-producing specialist, is that face dogs are the most destructive kind of head dog ... and typically most people's favorites ... but at the TOP of the heap, I would have to say that every truly ace EAR dog I have ever seen has whipped the best face dogs ... and has done so every time.
Now, keep in mind, there is a difference from a palooka being "on the ear" ... and an ACE ear dog ... that difference is hard to explain to someone who has never seen the difference ... but when you see it you will know what I am talking about.
A good face dog is hard to beat ... and an ace face dog is pure poison ... but an ACE ear dog is practically untouchable ... even by the best face dogs.
It's not "the damage" caused by an ace ear dog, it is the **absolute control** that beats even the best opponents. Yet, the damage done to the inner ear canal of a TRUE ear specialist can be pretty substantial, can hurt like hell after awhile, can totally mess-up the opponent's balance, equilibrium, and confidence ... and can bring out the cur in even the (so-called) "gamest" of dogs. That is, if the head dog grabs ENOUGH of the ear/base of skull in his holds, which truly great ear dogs do. You might want to check out this thread for an idea of what I am talking about, seeing what a TOOTHLESS ace ear dog can do. (Scroll down to posts 5, 6, 7 ... on page 3.)
The toothless, ace ear dog Ch Robert T Jr., for example, stopped four 4xWs from making Grand Champion ... and yet never broke the hide on any of them.
His father, Ch Robert T, had teeth, beat 9 opponents, including 2 Grand Champions and 2 4xWs ... and I can't think of any face dogs that have won that many (or any other kind of dog).
A lot of people don't realize this, but Gr Ch Tornado was an ace on the ear also, killing 3 dogs without getting a hole in her skin. Everyone talks about her wins, or her killing dogs in the brisket, but she slowed many of them down on the head, including Bobby Hall's Sunshine, who was killed with 3 holds: first on one ear ... second with a switch to the other ear ... and then handles made when his bitch turned. Bobby Hall's dog was drunk in the corner from the punishment to both ears, which destroyed his bitch's equilibrium. At release, Tornado buries Sunshine in the corner, and kills her in the brisket at like :17 ... but it was THE EAR HOLDS that kept Sunshine out of Tornado's guts, and softened-up Sunshine for the kill. I think that was the bitch's name, Sunshine.
Jack
Perfect post and explanation and to add like you used Tornado as example there are the dogs who are defensive and offensive. I do agree face is part of the head but like you broke down there are different divisions inside the head dog entity, Nose, Jaw, Eyes, Top of head, Ear. Some styles are a lot of worse than others, but like you said a great ear dog has and will whip most any dogs if they get to the spot. Like my ol buddy use to say, kill the head and the body will fall. Or let him run dry chasing while you riding him out take him to that deep water and drown him. Face dogs are career ending dogs who can ruin one quick. Face or Nose dogs are one of my favorites and boy is it beneficial if your dogs don't have a lot of mouth to begin with, but I seen some Jaw specialists and man that's one rough style because once they wear that jaw muscle out and your hound can't bite no more you in a world of trouble.Originally Posted by CA Jack
Sorry for rambling but again great post and explanation Jack
Thank you and nice post yourself.
Earl Tudor said it as well as anyone, "I will take a good ear dog and whip most of these so-called 'fast-track' dogs ..."
Still, like anything else, there will always be exceptions to every rule, but the ODDS will always favor the dog that controls the head,
Moreover, if you reach for any other spot on the dog, you leave your own head open to be nailed first, hence the odds will always favor the head dog.
Doesn't mean some dog won't "beat" the odds ... but what it does mean is that, more often than not, you will bring home the money with a good head dog over any other style dog.
Jack
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Agree with Jack's post, pretty much anything from the neck up is a 'head dog'. Then they become specialists after that. I had a bitch once that stopped one or two from the ear and won her match the same way. Like it was already said, not just holding and riding, but doing some damage while holding and riding, really tough to beat. This bitch looked like she put the top hangers in the top of the head at the base of one ear with the bottom hangers in the jaw muscle under the other ear, and then pulled it all together, or at least it looks that way.
Combine a propensity for the ear, decent mouth and being on the high end of pound for pound strength, that particular dog is really hard to get to. The pound for pound stronger ear dog wil dominate and control until the other is spent. A lot of 'good' dogs check up under that. EWO
Agree 100%. That bitch sounds like "my kinda dog"
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1. No style wins 100% of the time; All styles can lose;
2. Tactically-speaking, he who controls the opponent's head (and therefore weapons) controls how much he gets bit;
3. The more control of the opponent's head, the less the dog gets bit; the lesser control of the opponent's head, the more the dog gets bit (basic logic);
4. It is harder to keep a face hold for a long time than an ear hold; a true ace ear dog has THE control of that head (especially if he stands perpendicular to the opponent);
5. That ONE dog of yours, who lost both his ears, and finally got to the ear dog, is a 100-1 exception;
6. Statistically-speaking, for every dog that can "do that" ... like your 1 dog did ... there are 100 that would QUIT to that first ... so we're talking about THE RULE not the "once in a lifetime" exception.
7. Also, your dog might have also had a thinner-than-usual hide ...
8. Ear dogs can "go elsewhere" like any other dog ... it's the absolute control of the head that they achieve which makes them special.
Jack
LOL....I'm completely aware of the anatomy of the head.
I think the face is more specific in describing the style of the dog just like an "ear" dog, while a head dog, is more specific in describing that dog.
Some dogs fight the front legs and some the back. Technically, yes, they are all leg dogs, but some are stifle back end dogs while others are strictly front end dogs.
Good posts here.
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