Pups born, fade and die in 24 hours

[No Quarter Kennel]

I have been associated with the Hammonds family of dogs for 20 years. I'm not Maurice Carver, Mr. Hollingsworth or CA Jack by any means. I've bred a few dogs, not many really, but have had a few good ones and a few not so good breedings. I try and learn from mistakes and try to do better as time goes by. With the Hammonds blood, it has been my experience, that this line has some fertility issues as well as some sorry mothers and overall, just not a great line for maternal intuition, if you will. With that being said, I have seen a lot with the females of this line. I've seen mothers give birth, get them all cleaned up and after about 3 hours of being done, just start eating her pups (the litter that produced AC/DC Diablo - had to hand raise them all). Seen mothers of this line eat them, placenta and all, as they hit the ground. Seen mothers of this line stomp all over pups and be just way too rough. Ever hear of Hammonds No Toes??? Well, guy got his name b/c mom chewed all his toes off. Just some nutty shit in this line. Frustrating actually.

Well, the same litter that produced Diablo had one female in it and she was mine. I named her Calley. She produces some good dogs and one of those is my current best female of this line, named Jezebelle. Jez has produced two litters. Raised them all and is actually a very good mother. None of the above applies to her, but rather, what happened recently adds to the frustration.

I bred Jezebelle to PK couple months ago. Real excited b/c I know so much about both parents and their backgrounds. I consider the breeding to be one of the best of the Alligator family that can be put together these days. She has them sometime in the night, this last Saturday night. The next morning, I see she's had 7. I first check discharge and palpate some to make sure she is done. I find no reason to think she's not. I notice one pup is very lethargic. Turns out, she pulled a bit too much on the umbilical cord and tore a small hole in his stomach cause some internal damage. He dies by the end of the day. The other 6 are thriving. Gaining their weight as they should. By 4pm that same day, I notice one isn't doing well. I already checked her tits and milk and all looked to be fine as should be. By 8pm that evening, a few aren't doing well. It's Sunday. I should have prefaced this with the fact, I have access to only 2 vets within an hour of me. They are both extremely average to below average and I have very little faith in them, but it's all I have.

The next morning, I wake up, they are all still alive, but they are all very very "laid out" all over the brood box like a grenade had gone off. Jez looks like shit. She has a very toxic look to her. I load her and the pups up. It's 7am and I'm at the vet by 7:35. They open at 8am. He literally does not get there until 8:07. Before his arrival, Jez had stood up in her crate, starts to regurgitate, falls over like she's passing out and starts to vomit a mixture of placenta and bile. Hideous shit. By now, I'm not feeling good about all of this. I explain to him, as he walks in late, the entire situation as I did here. I tell him I have to be at work and I am trusting him with my best bitch and of course he wants to spay her and I tell him, this is not an option. I also ask for them to take on the pups as they are extremely weak and if they can stabilize the pups and equip me to take them home I am more than willing, but would prefer they get them to a stable state as two looked as though they were on their way OUT of this world.

He examines her. X Rays her. No internal or external parasites. Nothing on the X Ray to suggest anything inside of her. She is anemic. He starts talking virus. I suggest a blood loss due to birthing. He goes along with it. He puts her on IV fluids and Antibiotics and after hearing they don't use heating pads or understand tube feeding, I load my poor pups up and head home. I get a colostrum and milk replacement powder, get my heating pad out and go to work. I've lost 4 and looks like a 5th is on her way out as well. The first 4 all died within 48hrs of birth. One is doing outstanding and has been since day one, but the other one I have left now is fading bad today. Probably lose her. My wife and I have both been bottle feeding every 4 hours. Jez is at the vet and I'm about to pic her up. I called to check on her today and was told she is doing very well but her eyes "are very dilated" and at that point, after having her for 3 full days, I have to tell them "She's blind". Their response, "Oh, that explains her not finding her food right off some times".

His theory is that she got some type of strange virus that infected her milk and was passing that on to her pups. My theory, based on the anemia and the pups' response, is that she had some uterus damage from birth and this caused both blood loss and probably an infection that was coming through the milk. I don't know as I'm not a vet and this guy is suspect as to being a vet himself, so I'm using my own limited understanding of canine biology to put this one together.

To top it all off - the very next morning - yesterday - I'm driving to work at 6:45am after bottle feeding the 4 I had at that time and within half a mile from my house, here is a litter of 6 pups laying in the middle of the road huddled up together b/c some piece of shit scum bag dumped their ass for someone else to take care of. Being the asshole I am, I loaded them up and took them home as I just can't stomach shit like that so now I have what looks to be some kind of freakin lab crosses at about 8 weeks of age, FULL of freakin worms and shit that I'll worm, vaccinate and try to find homes for.......LOL just when I decide I have too many dogs and need to cut back, this is what I get.

Anyways - I doubt many want to read all of this shit, but I thought I'd share for a couple of reasons. 1. If someone can learn anything from my experience, then I'm glad to help. 2. Maybe I'll learn something about all of this if someone has a theory or suggestion to what happened or what I can do to improve and 3. It's freakin therapeutic.

Anyone looking for a Lab mutt - hit me up - they free to good homes.....LOL!
Have a great day

[loot]

How is your female and her pups doing? An that's a good Dede your doing with the other pups. I would have done the same thing. Good look

[S_B]

Not a post I wanted to read while my bitch is beginning labor lol

I feel for you NQ, that's disheartening to go through all we do with the dogs and lose pups like that. Especially when we've tried to cover all the bases like I know you have.

Says a lot about you picking up those strays, many wouldn't but a good caring dogman would even if it means putting them down humanely.

Good luck with your bitch and hope you are able to salvage a pup.

S_B

[SGC]

What a nightmare to go thru... I am sorry you lost so many of the pups and that the momma was sick too.

Do you think she got into anything that could cause this? Your thought about her having damage from giving birth could be it, or maybe she ate too many of the placentas and that made her sick and caused her milk to go bad? Just guessing here, but that is all that occurred to me.

I hope they are doing better, it is discouraging to lose most of the litter like this when they are just born.

And that was very kind to pick up the little dumped Lab pups. People suck, to dump them in the road like that. Good for you to help them out. At least a lot of folks like Labs for pets so I hope they go quickly.

[Officially Retired]

I have been associated with the Hammonds family of dogs for 20 years. I'm not Maurice Carver, Mr. Hollingsworth or CA Jack by any means. I've bred a few dogs, not many really, but have had a few good ones and a few not so good breedings. I try and learn from mistakes and try to do better as time goes by. With the Hammonds blood, it has been my experience, that this line has some fertility issues as well as some sorry mothers and overall, just not a great line for maternal intuition, if you will. With that being said, I have seen a lot with the females of this line. I've seen mothers give birth, get them all cleaned up and after about 3 hours of being done, just start eating her pups (the litter that produced AC/DC Diablo - had to hand raise them all). Seen mothers of this line eat them, placenta and all, as they hit the ground. Seen mothers of this line stomp all over pups and be just way too rough. Ever hear of Hammonds No Toes??? Well, guy got his name b/c mom chewed all his toes off. Just some nutty shit in this line. Frustrating actually.

Welcome to the world of breeding dogs

Well, the same litter that produced Diablo had one female in it and she was mine. I named her Calley. She produces some good dogs and one of those is my current best female of this line, named Jezebelle. Jez has produced two litters. Raised them all and is actually a very good mother. None of the above applies to her, but rather, what happened recently adds to the frustration.

And high hopes dashed to oblivion ...

I bred Jezebelle to PK couple months ago. Real excited b/c I know so much about both parents and their backgrounds. I consider the breeding to be one of the best of the Alligator family that can be put together these days. She has them sometime in the night, this last Saturday night. The next morning, I see she's had 7. I first check discharge and palpate some to make sure she is done. I find no reason to think she's not. I notice one pup is very lethargic. Turns out, she pulled a bit too much on the umbilical cord and tore a small hole in his stomach cause some internal damage. He dies by the end of the day. The other 6 are thriving. Gaining their weight as they should. By 4pm that same day, I notice one isn't doing well. I already checked her tits and milk and all looked to be fine as should be. By 8pm that evening, a few aren't doing well. It's Sunday. I should have prefaced this with the fact, I have access to only 2 vets within an hour of me. They are both extremely average to below average and I have very little faith in them, but it's all I have.

This seems like déjà vu all over again with you ... you remember when you let your bitch die of pyometra?

Basic Protocol 101 is take the bitch to the vet after she delivers. Have her checked for extra pups. Get her a shot of oxytocin to expel extra placentas. You didn't do this. Now you know why you should.

I also recommend supervising the delivery of each pup so that the bitch doesn't eat them (eat a leg, take too much off the umbilical, etc.).

Finally, I recommend that antibiotics be given just before birth to clean the milk, so the pups don't start suckling bad milk

Once they get a bellyful of bacteria-laden milk, you can pretty much kiss them goodbye, especially after 4 have died and the rest have had a few days' worth of nasty milk run through them.

All this information is in your book, but "reading it" won't help you ... "agreeing with it" and/or "nodding your head" to the material won't help you ... only FOLLOWING IT will help you

He examines her. X Rays her. No internal or external parasites. Nothing on the X Ray to suggest anything inside of her. She is anemic. He starts talking virus. I suggest a blood loss due to birthing. He goes along with it. He puts her on IV fluids and Antibiotics and after hearing they don't use heating pads or understand tube feeding, I load my poor pups up and head home. I get a colostrum and milk replacement powder, get my heating pad out and go to work. I've lost 4 and looks like a 5th is on her way out as well. The first 4 all died within 48hrs of birth. One is doing outstanding and has been since day one, but the other one I have left now is fading bad today. Probably lose her. My wife and I have both been bottle feeding every 4 hours. Jez is at the vet and I'm about to pic her up. I called to check on her today and was told she is doing very well but her eyes "are very dilated" and at that point, after having her for 3 full days, I have to tell them "She's blind". Their response, "Oh, that explains her not finding her food right off some times".

The guy is an idiot. The bitch either had acute metritis or bad milk, one or the other.

His theory is that she got some type of strange virus that infected her milk and was passing that on to her pups. My theory, based on the anemia and the pups' response, is that she had some uterus damage from birth and this caused both blood loss and probably an infection that was coming through the milk. I don't know as I'm not a vet and this guy is suspect as to being a vet himself, so I'm using my own limited understanding of canine biology to put this one together.

Like I said, she either had acute metritis or mastitis, one or the other.

To top it all off - the very next morning - yesterday - I'm driving to work at 6:45am after bottle feeding the 4 I had at that time and within half a mile from my house, here is a litter of 6 pups laying in the middle of the road huddled up together b/c some piece of shit scum bag dumped their ass for someone else to take care of. Being the asshole I am, I loaded them up and took them home as I just can't stomach shit like that so now I have what looks to be some kind of freakin lab crosses at about 8 weeks of age, FULL of freakin worms and shit that I'll worm, vaccinate and try to find homes for.......LOL just when I decide I have too many dogs and need to cut back, this is what I get.

Okay, extra brownie points for being a good dude.

Anyways - I doubt many want to read all of this shit, but I thought I'd share for a couple of reasons. 1. If someone can learn anything from my experience, then I'm glad to help. 2. Maybe I'll learn something about all of this if someone has a theory or suggestion to what happened or what I can do to improve and 3. It's freakin therapeutic.

Follow the instructions in your book. Don't cut corners. Don't "assume" everything will be okay.

You can hope for the best, but it's more effective all the way around to plan for the worst ...

Anyone looking for a Lab mutt - hit me up - they free to good homes.....LOL!
Have a great day

Probably not the best place to advertise

Sorry about your misfortune

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack, I appreciate your input as I wouldn't put this here otherwise, but I wish you'd come off the "let your bitch die" thing go on the other deal. First and only closed pyometra of my life and I know I know I know - you can dig up the old post and dissect it where I was a horrible duded and let her die, but the bitch didn't act bad at all, wouldn't eat for a while - I DID TAKE HER INTO THE VET and this is a key point - SHE DID NOT DIE!!!!! She was very old, only produced 2-3 pups a litter her entire life, missed on breedings more times than not and I CHOSE TO PUT HER DOWN as her value as a brood animal was less than the expense of saving her intact and the other dogs I have saved from Pyo never - EVER - produced a pup for me. So the odds and situation told me the most informed sensible thing to do was to put her down. YES great word smith - she did die - but it was not from PYO - it was my decision to kill her.

2nd thing, I did give Jez a shot of oxytocin. I wanted to go back and edit that in when I posted it, but I was walking out the door and figured most folks on here are cool and I knew someone would ask or point out that I missed it, but I did not. I went to the vet prior to delivery and got a few shots of it. I'm no vet, but I have been shown how to palpate for pregnancy at around 4 weeks after breeding and also for any obstructions. Short of an X Ray, I am actually very dependable on assessing whether or not there is something inside. With the X Ray to verify on this situation - I was actually right. I don't believe I was dealing with a great vet in this situation, but I do believe he can read an X Ray correctly.

I think your advising to supervise the delivery is great and agree - it would be best. It's why in most of the cases I mentioned above, I actually knew what was going on. It's because I did supervise those deliveries. So point well taken and in cases of females that I do not know, trust or have never bred - I do just that. However, as stated originally, Jez has had two litters, never lost a pup and has always been exceptional in delivery and raising pups. Supervision of this delivery would have afforded me nothing as delivery went flawless. The small hole in the one pup's stomach would not have been prevented as it was tiny. The only reason I ever saw it is b/c after several hours of going back and checking on the pup, it finally started to leak a little blood and I located the small hole that way.

Jack - I'm a little confused on the Antibiotics and ready to learn here, but in your book, the preventative Antibiotics you suggest were for bitches with a history of mastitis. This dog does NOT have a history of anything. I actually posted a question in one of my original posts a good while about a bitch I was dealing with, directly to you, asking if it would be safe and sensible to administer antibiotics in a preventive manner for all bitches. I never got a reply - SO, I reverted back to "my book" and figured if a dog has no history at all of mastitis or "bad milk" then it wouldn't be necessary. Do you recommend or advise that ALL females be administered antibiotics prior to birth? If so, what do you suggest and from what day and how long? Would it be different that what you prescribe in for bitches with a history of mastitis?

Vet an idiot???? I agree 100%. I was very disappointed. Dude kept my dog for 3 days. Mentioned spaying her 2 days in a row until I finally sternly told him, "THAT'S NOT A FUCKING OPTION". I guess the good news - or a positive spin (I know Jack - you are against this - you like to focus on the 'you suck' and 'you failed' perspectives) would be that there are things to be learned from all unfortunate situations. Anyone with just a little bit of ambition should learn more from failures, mistakes and just misfortune than they will by running clean, clear and way out front with everything going right, so that's how I have to look at this. I'll learn from it and move on.

Some facts:
1. I was dealing with an, until now, problem free bitch who was proven producer and mother
2. Pregnancy went perfectly fine
3. Delivery went perfectly fine
4. She was administered "pop shot" and was free and clear of anything and X Ray verified
5. She was anemic - blood test verified
6. She did get a temperature - suggesting infections? (I'm asking here now - vet says a virus - but I think infection)
7. Obviously - as you suggest Jack - the milk had to be bad - with a bitch that has never had any problems - what would cause this? I will use preventative antibiotics next time, but what causes this "bad milk"?

So with all the above, I don't know what I could have done, besides give antibiotics before hand, that would have made a difference. AND, according to "my book", the preventative measures would be suggested for a bitch with previous history. If there are no adverse affects, I'll just start doing this to ALL bitches.

Jack, I agree 100% that it is best to be prepared for the worst. I don't think I cut any corners. As someone asked above if she got into anything (and the vet asked the same) it's impossible. She was in a VERY WELL BUILT above ground pen for last few weeks before delivery.

As someone else suggest as well - it sucks b/c you do feel like you've done just about everything possible. If I did not cover a base or two, it is my fault, but I wouldn't do it intentionally to save time or money or anything else. It may be out of ignorance, but never to "cut corners".

Thanks to all the 'props' on picking up the pups in the road. I have never, EVER in my life ever seen a worse case of round worms in pups. I wormed them when I got home and the amount of worms in that pen, from 6 pups, NO SHIT, would fill up a 1 gallon milk jug. There was one poop pile that literally had more worms in it than a full serving size of Spaghetti at the Olive Garden. Unbelievable.

As for my situation - Jez is home, doing well - JACK - he sent me home with Clavamox and Baytril. AND Prednisone - I'm curious about the pred - do you think I should give this? Both antibiotics sound appropriate - but the pred???????

Down to one black brindle pup. She's a powerhouse. We'll hope for the best and I don't know what else I can do to keep this one alive other than warm clean environment and good nutrition.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks and Good Day!

[Nut]

Sorry for the shit that happened.

I only did 2 breedings. But both times I gave 7-10 days of amoxicilline before delivery day and it wasnt a problem, both pups and bitch were in great health. I did it because i suspected mamory gland infection on 1 tit, but will do it preventively in the future too. Its very save anti biotic for pregnant bitches.

Is or will the bitch feed her pups while on these prescribed medication?

[Officially Retired]

Good morning Ferg;

Before my first case of pyometra, I already knew what to look for ... because I had already read 3 vet books, from cover-to-cover, the reproductive section most especially, so that I was PREPARED for all the terrible shit that can happen after heat cycles, during birthing, etc.

In fact, before my first two litters of pups were born, I already had bought/read two vet books, because I was nervous as hell, and I didn't want anything to go wrong. (Nothing did.)
I read about every stage of gestation and delivery, the temperature drop, what problems to watch out for (both during/after delivery), everything.

Therefore, I pretty much knew that if a bitch comes out of heat, and is listless, drinks alot, but won't eat, she's got pyo ... before I ever had my first case of pyo ... so when my first case did come, I knew what it was.

Too many people breed these dogs, without ever cracking open a book (or, worse, "buying books" that sit un-read on their shelves) ... thinking that "everything will be okay."

In 20-something years of breeding dogs, I have never yet had a case of acute metritis, but I damned sure know what it is, because I have read about it plenty of times, and know when it is likely to be the problem.

For that matter, I also knew what babesia was before my first case, because (here again) I had read about it before Stormbringer's brother Tecate caught it (back in 1995) ... and it was only because I HAD TAKEN THE TIME TO READ A LOT that I was able to identify the problem (that no vet could figure out), make the contacts I needed to make, and get that dog saved

So I will have to beg your pardon for my attitude ... IMO too many people tell me their, "Boo-hoo, this was my first time," stories ... but it doesn't wash with me, sorry.

Reading, educating oneself, having an idea of all the problems that can happen during birthing + post-partum BEFORE you actually start breeding dogs and producing litters is simply DOING YOUR JOB and BEING PREPARED.

I do agree with you that, sitting around, breeding dogs, letting bitches have their pups in pens, having no fogging idea of what symptom means what, pulling dead pups out, and then "taking a bitch to the vet" only after she's deathly-ill (because prophylactic antibiotics weren't given) is how most people breed dogs ... but it certainly can't in any way be called "best practice."

Glad she's doing better,

Jack

[S_B]

Jack is absolutely right, it's best to be well versed in something BEFORE you dive in and do it.

I had a couple cases of pyometra a few years ago, of all the years I've had dogs it was my first. I was prepared and didn't even have to make a trip to the vet. 3 bitches, 2 mine got over it with no problem, my oldest bitch (almost 10) relapsed next heat and I decided to put her down because of her age and I honestly didn't want to keep her as a spayed dog when I could keep a young healthy up and coming dog in her space. She was special and lived like a queen up until I said goodbye.

I've only lost 1 pup that was whelped here, he chilled when he crawled away from his mother in the night on day 2, that was 12 years ago. That is something you can't prevent because you must sleep....and I use lectro heating pads. I'll never leave a bitch to whelp unattended, I've invested to much of my time in the dogs that I breed to take a loss when I finally decide to breed them.

My bitch that just whelped is a dum dum, she gets up constantly and plops on her pups. I've been up with her since 8pm last night. Now that delivery is over she is a bit calmer but still doesn't have enough sense to not lay on pups. So I'm right here, catching my winks between listening for movement.

I understand not everyone can be so diligent, but I guarantee you I know when something is off with any one of my dogs far sooner than any vet and most dogmen.

S_B

[No Quarter Kennel]

I have no rebuttal men. No sarcasm - but you are both more diligent than myself on some levels.
All I can do is try to improve, as I always will.

Jack - if you suggested a book - one mind you - which would you suggest - on this type of topic here?

Later guys - have a great day!