sister vs. sister/brother vs.brother

[Johngilpat]

First post on here yall don't be to violent. But what's the history on this subject. Just curious!

[CYJ]

First, both male and female dogs should be excellent built specimens. No bad faults like under shot or over bite jaws/fiddle front end/cow hocked/ not having a good deep breathing chest capacity and so on. This should always be taken into consideration even when line breeding. Sadly as I tell you this, very few really know what a excellent looking functional pit dog looks like. One excellent built dog that comes to my mind would have been Weldon's Jimmy Boots.

Some of the dogs that California Jack bred up were nice looking dogs. When you got 32 to 35 pound dogs that look big as a 42 to 45 pound dog. You doing something right. One has to strive to breed big bone dogs to weight ratio, when brought down to show weight. All things equal the bigger boned/longer neck/ ranger dog will win every time. Especially in hot weather.

I had very little success with brother/sister breeding. Maurice Carver's thoughts on this subject was that; you double your goodness and triple your junk. He was 100% right on. Most of the brother/Sister breeding I made produced a bunch of nut cases. Dogs were well built, some showed to be very game and rough but all their teeth would be gone by the time the dogs were old enough to show.

My biggest mistake with my last breeding's was not using my Young's Winchester dog first over all my brood bitches. Instead I used my Young's Jake dog, the Zetterquest brother's Crazy Critter dog. Now this was not brother'sister breeding's, but was heavy on the Eli- Bully Son dog etc. Results huge dogs to big for my liking. Some of those last dogs weighed 65 to 85 pounds on the chain. Another stud dog that produced really big dogs was the Jim William's Paladin dog. The Hammond's line usually produced big catch weight dogs also.

Starting to get off subject. I feel IMHO that a Brother/Sister breeding is to be done when a great blood line is about gone or to be lost. Usually you have to weed out the triple junk and the next breeding add a good line bred dog back in to keep bad faults from cropping up and maintain hybrid vigor.

IMHO the best way to breed dogs is when you make that magical clink that produces an all litter of very good to great dogs. You keep that stud dog and bitch dog in tip top health. Breed them till the well runs dry. Why waste feeding and caring for dogs of probably less quality. If you are seeking very good to great show dogs. You have the right recipe staring you in the face. Why go breeding your bitch to this are that.

Talked to a few young dog men over the last few years that have lucked up and made some really good breeding's that gave them the dogs they were very happy with. I asked them how many breeding's off those dogs they got to make. Usually just that one breeding and that good bitch dog or stud lost from a kennel fight etc. Or they were off to the latest fad or latest Super dog on the market. I have done the same myself. LOL Unless one plans to peddle dogs keeping to many different bloodlines will overtime prove unfruitful and wear a one man dog operation out in mind/body/spirit and last much wasted money. IMHO Cheers

[BIGC]

Almost seems he might be talking show wise.

[Johngilpat]

Great read CYJ, thank you for the info.

[Nut]

Is this question about breeding or roling?

[Johngilpat]

The question was about showing.

[Nut]

Thats what I thought. CYJ didn't get the question right, great response though.

Would never match into a littermate. Don't know why anyone would want that. Rolling is a different matter.

[FrostyPaws]

I personally can't think of any history of that happening. I certainly can't say it hasn't, given the thousands of matches over 100+ years, but I've never heard of it or read of it either, for that matter.

[Buckgator]

CJY made a better point I think for CJY identified what characteristics made a good dog and what you didn't want in them. Maybe a new post coming up with a list of traits you want in a good bulldog and traits you would like to get ride of. I don't see much advice or info on what crops up and how one goes about breeding them out. I think whether show dog or not what works for the goose with all being equal works for the gander. Race horses look good and have what it takes to finish I don't think this is coincidence. I realize looking up how things are inherited can be tedious and confusing but don't we owe it to the breed/improve it?

[CYJ]

Ditto, I believe deep gameness is a first priority. Still you have to have a proper put together dog for it to be able to take a proper conditioning keep. To perform at it's best in a get down show and go event. Get my drift. LOL

One of the best books you will ever read on how to properly breed any certain type of dogs, If still in print. Was written by a well known German dog breeder.
This German dog man was one of the top of the line German Shepard's breeders bare none. I learned about this book from V. Jackson, who got his info from Mr. Lonzo Pratt. Mr. Pratt breed some excellent German Shepard's before he later started breeding his line of Pit Bull Terriers.

This German Dog breeder started out with the very best German Shepard stock available and with proper line breeding etc. The dogs generations down from the original stock looked like clone replica's of the original dogs he started out with. This man's dogs were not bred to just look at and win dog shows and ribbons. But performed very well in those dogs trials that the Germans do over there with the big German Shepard's/ Rottweilers and Dobermans.

IMHO, I still feel a brother/Sister breeding should only be done if say a good line of Carver/Colby/Tudor or any well know blood line today is soon to be lost forever. The dogs to be used should be proper built and healthy dogs. If either are high strung and not calm solid acting dogs. One will most likely get a bunch of root chewing/chain chewing/house chewing nut cases. Any freak built dogs back in the ancestry, will probably crop up. Now you can still get the same thing with line breeding etc. But you can probably count on that double your goodness and triple your junk factor that Maurice Carver spoke of.

One other thing to add. My Young's Chuck dog bred by Creel was a brother/sister breeding. Chuck was a very intelligent, calm, and solid/strong built pit dog. Scotty checked Chuck's oil in a get down and go dog show before being used as a stud dog. Chuck was around 5 years old at that time.This factor was helpful before using Chuck as a stud dog. Do not know how all chuck's siblings turned out. Over time heard good things about Mr. Creels dogs and did get to talk with him about my Chuck dog. Cheers