Line breeding and inbreeding, reducing variables and outcomes

[bossman311]

People in the past, current and future line breed and inbreed to lock in specific traits.
They reduce the randomness of breeding to keep these traits.
You know the more you see, the less you guess and that means you reduce the outcome of what you should get from a breeding each generation.
It's been said many times over that you only truly know about what you see not what you heard or read when it comes to these dogs.
Papers can and have been put or flipped on dogs since the beginning. The tighter they get the more they should look the same. The more they should do the same and the more they should produce the same.

If you stick with a specific dog for 4 generations, you will continue to see the same results, but because no dog can be bred to itself the outcomes may be a little difference based on how you breed these dogs for those 4 generations.
How you breed dogs also is a major factor on results. Being a father daughter is 75% the Sire but a 1/2 brother and sister back to the grandfather is also 75%.

You can maintain 50% of a dog for generations if you want. But just know that you know more about what you feed sticking with it line breeding and inbreeding than you ever will just throwing mud against the wall and seeing what sticks.

They can go from this http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55947 to this http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=55944 and from that to this http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=69537 and even further down to this http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=93903 and so on. Even go in different directions and still maintain consistency such as this http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=76571 and even this little guy where both sides meet in the middle http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=95408

Yes, you can control the outcome allot more than you can think.

Keep them tight, check them hard

[Hugh Glass]

I'm a natural "odd" (opposition defiance disorder) fellow.

I agree with going with what you see. All in on that. If I do not see it I will not assume it's there. I'm a traits based breeder who believes in breeding to high percentage litters. So regardless of how tight a linebred individual may be, do you breed to what was or could be based on individuals emphasized in the tight linebred dog or do you go with dogs of the same family that prove (can be seen) to possess the desired traits?

Our program breeds similar to how you describe but with performance in mind only. Preservation os important to a degree, but not at the expense of desired abilities.

Can a performance animal be a brood dog? And why do so many consider non-performance dogs brood? Is this a justification, excuse or is this legit? If it's a brood dog, but not a dog who can hunt, why breed it?

Lots to consider

[mottie]

I'm a natural "odd" (opposition defiance disorder) fellow.

I agree with going with what you see. All in on that. If I do not see it I will not assume it's there. I'm a traits based breeder who believes in breeding to high percentage litters. So regardless of how tight a linebred individual may be, do you breed to what was or could be based on individuals emphasized in the tight linebred dog or do you go with dogs of the same family that prove (can be seen) to possess the desired traits?

Our program breeds similar to how you describe but with performance in mind only. Preservation os important to a degree, but not at the expense of desired abilities.

Can a performance animal be a brood dog? And why do so many consider non-performance dogs brood? Is this a justification, excuse or is this legit? If it's a brood dog, but not a dog who can hunt, why breed it?

Lots to consider

Those are some good questions?

[bossman311]

I'm a natural "odd" (opposition defiance disorder) fellow.

I agree with going with what you see. All in on that. If I do not see it I will not assume it's there. I'm a traits based breeder who believes in breeding to high percentage litters. So regardless of how tight a linebred individual may be, do you breed to what was or could be based on individuals emphasized in the tight linebred dog or do you go with dogs of the same family that prove (can be seen) to possess the desired traits?

Our program breeds similar to how you describe but with performance in mind only. Preservation os important to a degree, but not at the expense of desired abilities.

Can a performance animal be a brood dog? And why do so many consider non-performance dogs brood? Is this a justification, excuse or is this legit? If it's a brood dog, but not a dog who can hunt, why breed it?

Lots to consider

I will go by what I use and determine for me and my dogs as answers.
Everyone is different. So, question#1. I started my dogs based on working dogs and not how they were bred or what they came down from. Once a base was established, I still continued to breed working -working while tightening up on what I established. examples Ziggy became a base. Both of his parents were good and their parents before then and so on. Ziggy made 6 straight generations that I had my hands on. I tightened up on Ziggy himself and then back to his topside and also his bottom side. Each breeding using the dogs that worked. Now once I had done all of that I sought out what the new dogs lack in. They were still good but as they grew tighter in 1 direction, they had somehow started in lacking in another.

It was then I decided to use dogs pure based on the Families and what they families were known for. A great dog may not always reproduce but a good family more often gives you the traits the family is known for.

I still used dogs that worked but did not care how great they were because I were not basing my family on them but the crosses of my dogs and those and more important when the cross was put back once again to the base using 1/4 or less of the new stuff.

I may only want 1/4 or may only use 1/16 of other bloodlines.

The outcrossed dogs were just that. Adding a little something different to keep " My Dogs" from getting too tight.

If you read most of my pedigrees most dogs were just bred once or twice or at least the ones added to the base and then no more.
The crosses were put in the pot if they worked out. Even then most of those crosses were crossed again.

Sometimes it doesn't matter what kind of Salt YOU WANT TO ADD IF ALL YOU ARE DOING IS JUST ADDING A PINCH Of SALT to make a batch of cookies. You might not even taste the salt in there.
Same with dogs. Instead of just concentrating on the Alligator stuff for mouth or the Elie if was a few from each breeding that had extra bite such as the Crabbs, and others boosted it p. Same with Gameness. and all other desired traits.

My family of dogs is at least 18 different strains combined into 1 family after Ziggy and about the same to get Ziggy.
6 dogs based on 3 families each were added to Ziggy.

From my Ziggy dogs I used 1 male which was the heavy Corvino dog straight from Berts yard and about 5 females.
All 6 of these dogs were all based on 3 families combined. Example the Sorrells dogs straight from Bert was Sorrells line bred Uncle bud (Heavy Corvino), Alexander Boomerang and a bunch of families combined to create the Sorrells family.
Browns Candela Negra female was Bettendorf/Kirkwood and Carver Stompanato the Akia dog was Patrick's/Ratliff and Crabb, Flame was Clemmons/Reddick Hermans and Hollands the female Miss Deadend was White Oak Biter/Mayday/Jeep and Abby was Tatonka (line bred Sailor over Raisin /Heavy Carver) /Greenwoods/Ozzy Stevens.

6 dogs 3 each =18.

As far as Brood dogs any and all can be but this is just one example I have used over the years.

I breed dogs to go with dogs I already have that work.
I don't breed 2 dogs to see if they work out.
Another reason why I don't really focus on outside dogs.
I liked Johnie Rockhead, so I bred dogs to go back with Johnie Rockhead.
You see allot of families that are based on a single dog or not still use the same good dog on top breeding scheme.
This means I need as many as I can females to go to this same male. Some breeding's are just to get a new female t go back to Johnie or whatever male I'm focusing on.
And again, it's once again I will focus on the offspring off Johnie more than the female, I bred him too when I'm breeding to take it back to more 1/2 brother and sisters off Johnie.

And when line linebreeding like that you still keep your eye open for new good dogs from the breeding you did to get the female, but you are concentrating more on the new 1/2 sister to go with the old 1/2 brother and sisters already.

At the end of the day, I'm just breeding Johnie dogs be it some maybe 50% or more and a few less than 50% to go back to the other Johnie dogs. It's about breeding dogs off Johnie top and bottom back to dogs off Johnie top and bottom.

Once again just an example.

[Hugh Glass]

How far can a man go basing breedings on one simple question? Look at the two dogs considered for breeding and simply ask..."Do I want more dogs like this?"
If it's an easy yes, probably works

If there's any discussion or pause, why do it?

There are so many good all around high quality dogs, why ever settle for less?

This can be done within a family, linebreeding or with crosses. I personally don't like seeing more than 3 prominent bloods together, but it works there too.

Breed dogs that check the most important boxes for you to dogs very very similar. You're not going to add 2 different traits together and get both. So start with complete dog and breed to complete dogs.

That's my 2 cents. It won't buy you nothing!

Be Blessed

[bossman311]

How far can a man go basing breedings on one simple question? Look at the two dogs considered for breeding and simply ask..."Do I want more dogs like this?"
If it's an easy yes, probably works

If there's any discussion or pause, why do it?

There are so many good all around high quality dogs, why ever settle for less?

This can be done within a family, linebreeding or with crosses. I personally don't like seeing more than 3 prominent bloods together, but it works there too.

Breed dogs that check the most important boxes for you to dogs very very similar. You're not going to add 2 different traits together and get both. So start with complete dog and breed to complete dogs.

That's my 2 cents. It won't buy you nothing!

Be Blessed

Well spoken

[Hugh Glass]

Thanks brother