Can you ruin gameness? (genetics)

[R2L]

If gameness is determined genetically, (how) can it be ruined?

Case for example, let's say you would roll a dog who isn't fully matured/not ready. He scratches, but doesn't really start fighting/biting. Keeps crying when the other dog bites him. You still let it go for 4/5 minuts in the hope he would open up. When you want to let him go the 3th time he stays between your legs.

!!!!
If he or she IS fully matured, stopped the crying and he really starts biting. Would he more likely to stop because he was wasted earlier or was he a cur from the get go?
!!!!

[Officially Retired]

This is a great question, but I don't have the time right now to answer it fully.

Gameness, like any other genetic trait, is merely POTENTIAL.

For example, a man may have the genetic potential to be a great runner, but that doesn't mean he will realize his potential for running

That man can either maximize his potential, or minimize his potential, by the choices he makes (how he eats, the environment he keeps around him, the shape he keeps himself in, etc.) So, just because he has the potential to run with the best in the world does NOT mean he is going to grow up to be a great runner ... only HIS CHOICES IN LIFE will determine that.

The same is true for a man's genetic ability to fight, his genetic intelligence, etc. The genetically intelligent man, for example, may do drugs and ruin his mind, he may not care enough to apply himself, etc. Or he may surround himself with bright minds, actively push himself, and achieve great scholastic recognition, etc.

The same with whole teams of people (football, baseball, basketball, etc.). This is where GREAT COACHING can make the difference between whether that team gets itself together and realizes its potential ... or not ... by great coaching (or lousy coaching).

And these same principles apply to these dogs ... but f***ing idiot owners cannot understand this. Idiot-dogmen always want to put everything on their dogs. If the dog isn't good, despite all the stupid things the idiot-owner has done NOT to help his dog be its best, the idiot-owner will blame the dog and say "only genetics" matter ... because the idiot-owner is too effin stupid to realize that genetic ability is ONLY POTENTIAL. And it is really frustrating to try to make stupid people realize how stupid they are.

The truth is whether or not that any dog's genetic potential is ever realized is ENTIRELY dependent on the choices the owner makes with his dog ... and good dogmen realize this fact and make it their business to make wise choices ... while the people who can't see the reality of this are always the stupidest of dogmen who make incredibly stupid decisions with their dogs

Jack

[R2L]

That's right Jack. I question myself whether i made a mistake before judging the dog. You must, unless u like wasting precious time and potential precious dogs by making the same mistakes over and over. To each its own though, some are just very hard in selecting.

I can see what you're saying but it still makes me wonder.
You can make all the wrong choices but the capability to run fast or sing good will still be there. It was not ruined but hidden.
Now if a dog stopped while he was not ready for a roll, you obviously ruined the potential to show gameness in that particular roll. But when that same dog has become fully ready, and he carries the trait; could it be you ruined more then just his potential in his first roll? He chose the easy way out once.
If you'd compare it with the running again, and one with the potential to be a champion has not qualified for the olympics because of the wrong choises he made. Then the answer would be no, he wasnt ruined. He could still achieve it when his potential is maximized.

[Officially Retired]

That's right Jack. I always question myself whether i did made a mistake before i judge the dog. You must, unless u like wasting precious time and potential precious dogs by making the same mistakes over and over.

Agreed.

I can see what you're saying but it still makes me wonder.
You can make all the wrong choices but the capability to run fast or sing good will still be there. It was not ruined but hidden.

Just because a person can still "sing good," does not mean s/he can sing among the best singers in the world.

In the same way, compared to shit-dogs, even a ruined pit bull can still "fight good" ... but not against the best pit dogs in the world.

Same thing with "run good," compared to what?

The fatass in front of the couch, who had "genetic potential," may still be able to beat his neighbors ... but he will never be able to compete with world class runners ... who had the same potential ... but who realized and maximized that potential.

Now if a dog stopped while he was not ready for a roll, you obviously ruined the potential to show gameness in that particular roll. But when that same dog has become fully ready, and he carries the trait; could it be you ruined more then just his potential in the first roll? He chose the easy way out once.
If you'd compare it with the running again, and one has not qualified for the olympics because of the wrong choises he made. Then the answer would be no, he wasnt ruined. He could still achieve it when his potential is maximized.

Again, it depends on the dog, and HOW BADLY it was ruined.

I have had plenty of dogs that "cried at first" ... but that I didn't ruin ... who (later) got their shit together and proved to be incredibly game and talented dogs. Just because a man gets a little fat doesn't mean he can never be a runner again, all he has to do is slim down and start training.

However, if he totally destroys his body through repeated abuse, he will literally ruin his potential.

Jack

[EWO]

I doubt you can ruin gameness but you can get the dog to a point he never gets a chance to show it. Like a chain accident early on or being left down to long they never get a chance to enjoy what they are doing so they never will show you how far they will go. If that makes sense. Game is such an elusive term and has so many definitions depending on who is doing the defining. A game dog can be physically stopped and some will say cur others can see deeper into the subject. A winning dog can be a cur but never ran across anything to show him his character flaw.
I do not think one can ruin the genetic pre-disposition to be game but I think one could ruin a dog before game becomes a question, or better said, one can ruin a dog before gameness should be in question.

[Officially Retired]

I doubt you can ruin gameness but you can get the dog to a point he never gets a chance to show it. Like a chain accident early on or being left down to long they never get a chance to enjoy what they are doing so they never will show you how far they will go. If that makes sense. Game is such an elusive term and has so many definitions depending on who is doing the defining. A game dog can be physically stopped and some will say cur others can see deeper into the subject. A winning dog can be a cur but never ran across anything to show him his character flaw.
I do not think one can ruin the genetic pre-disposition to be game but I think one could ruin a dog before game becomes a question, or better said, one can ruin a dog before gameness should be in question.

Actually, any "genetic potential" can be ruined at any point in life.
Also, I think your post reflects the common confusion between DEAD gameness and mere gameness.

Gameness is merely "the will to win."
DEAD gameness is "the will to win that exceeds the will to survive" (the maximum amount of gameness possible).

• Most bulldogs are fairly game when compared to other breeds;
• Some bulldogs are so game they will outlast most other bulldogs;
• A few bulldogs are so deeply game they will die before they stop.

The assumption of most people is that gameness = DEAD gameness, but this is untrue. Gameness is merely an adjective like the word "fast." The word "fast" may seem informative, but upon closer inspection needs more qualifying words to modify it, in order to make sense. (E.g., not-so-fast, fairly fast, extremely fast, the fastEST, etc.) Ultimately, the word "fast" by iteself means nothing. To drive home the point, the sentence, "He is fast," is relatively meaningless. Fast compared to what? Another fat man? A triathelete? A cheetah? What? Furthermore, not only is the word fast by itself relatively meaningless, but a man's speed can vary from day to day, based on circumstances, as well as throughout his lifetime. What if he breaks his leg? What if he's 77 years old? In the end, no runner is able to maintain his very best speed, all day everyday, throughout his lifetime. His "genetic speed" WILL vary at different points within his lifetime.

By the same token, the word "game" by itself means nothing. Game compared to a beagle? Game compared to a so-so bulldog? Game enough to scratch on a broken leg, that may hurt, but the dog is still fresh? Game enough to scratch after being behind for 2 hours in a state of shock, with half his blood supply gone, for the last :30? 100% dead game, died in holds??? How game are we talking about? The idea that a dog is either "dead game or a cur" is preposterous to anyone with a brain, because there are degrees of gameness. That is like saying a person is either as fast as lightning or is "slow"; it is preposterous because there are degrees of speed. Furthermore, even when speaking of the gamest of dogs, said dog was NOT "that game" his whole life. He may not have hit a lick till he was 3 years old ... and he may not be "that game" when he is 11 years, dying of lymphatic cancer, with his whole body falling apart either. His gameness too WILL vary throughout his lifetime ... and yet, despite this reality, the common dogman expects a bulldog to be able to maintain absolute 100% dead gameness from birth till death, or "he is a cur," which is ridiculous.

Thus, in the end, only simple-minded people say, "game or cur." Such people will never really understand the nuances that prove (once again) there will never be "one answer" to any complicated question. As usual, each case is unique, and therefore each set of circumstances must be looked at by a truly educated, knowledgeable dogman. Because, you bet, gameness CAN be modified by the circumstances of life ... including age, health, physical condition, style of opponent, experiences in school, parasite load, etc.

Jack

[EWO]

I think I said the same thing in one paragraph. A game dog can be physically stopped and some will say cur and some will see deeper into the subject. Granted I did not go into great detail or give analogies of fast runners but it pretty much says the same time. "Some will see deeper". EWO

[Chase1]

Sometimes it may look almost instinctive. I've seen'em come from beyond life it's self and display this willingness to go on. Eveyone at the hog pen knew the catahoula was gone. The hndler picked him up smacked him on his ribcage and he took a big gasp of air and was screaming to get to the Russian boar. It was the most incredible and gmest catahoula I ever seen with these two eyes. This was back in the day.

[Black Hand]

A dog has a psyche just like a person and it is everything. You can look at any sport today and see someone who was at the pinnacle of their career and they lost it. Not because of anything physically but because of everything mentally. For example, Miguel Cotto losing his psyche Vs. Margarito previously being an undefeated fighter, he was never the same after that night. I doubt Justin Verlander will ever be the same after game 1 of this past world series. It is all in the mind. IMO this can be a determining factor between a good dog and bad dog. You have a model line bred litter, the pups probably will be very genetically similar. Its not like there is one gene for gameness and some of the pups got it and some don't. Its more than likely the combination of many genes that help mold and develop the animals mind. It doesn't have to people Nature Vs. Nurture. A better solution would be Nature + Nurture for the better results.

[R2L]

Degrees of gameness don't really matter. The question was merely, if gameness ( any degree) is genetic, can mishandling of a dog decrease the full potential a dog was born with.

I doubt you can ruin gameness but you can get the dog to a point he never gets a chance to show it. Like a chain accident early on or being left down to long they never get a chance to enjoy what they are doing so they never will show you how far they will go.

I do not think one can ruin the genetic pre-disposition to be game but I think one could ruin a dog before game becomes a question, or better said, one can ruin a dog before gameness should be in question.

That counts for dogs who not start or enjoy (again) after they were "ruined" for sure. But what if they do and their gameness will come into question?

What i hear allot is: "The dog chose the easy way out once, next time he'll do it again"

I hear the description of a cur dog while its the owner who put a dog in the ring who was not ready to be in it.