DISPUTED OR FAKE PEDS FROM THE PAST AND PRESENT .

[Foxman]

Project-X That story that was told about Gena not being on Maloney's place when Tombstone was born is a lie. I can bring forth two witnesses if you want to make it worth my while and they are not dead like your witness. Why don't you bet me 1000 dollars and we can send it to Weldon Stockton who use to be one of Mayfields Partners and was also a partner with Bennnett Clayton. I can produce two honest witnesses after the money is put up. Email me for Weldon's address and as soon as he calls me and says he has the $1000. I will send him 1000 dollars. Put up or shut up. I wasn't there 24 hours a day. So I know it is possible for Tombstone to be out of something else. But Toot Bred Genia I can prove that. She may have been bred to ten other males. I did see her hung up with Toot. I saw some pups nursing on Gena later that looked the same color as Tombstone plus some with more white. They could have been switched. My bet with you is Genia was there. I beleive tombstone is one of her pups but that isn't for sure and isn't part of the bet. I'd had to lived there to be sure whos they were positively Toot's and Gena's. I have one question. Why would a person lie about Tombstone being out of Gena who was not as well known of a known bloodline instead of some he had that were better known bloodlines dogs? That doesn't make since. I told you earlier there wee no Tudor females there. What i meant was he bred some dogs down from Tudor's stuff and had them there. What I'm saying is Tudor didn't breed one dog that was there on his place at the time. Anyway put up or shut up.

[evolutionkennels]

Now we were talking.

[projectx]

Project-X That story that was told about Gena not being on Maloney's place when Tombstone was born is a lie. I can bring forth two witnesses if you want to make it worth my while and they are not dead like your witness. Why don't you bet me 1000 dollars and we can send it to Weldon Stockton who use to be one of Mayfields Partners and was also a partner with Bennnett Clayton. I can produce two honest witnesses after the money is put up. Email me for Weldon's address and as soon as he calls me and says he has the $1000. I will send him 1000 dollars. Put up or shut up. I wasn't there 24 hours a day. So I know it is possible for Tombstone to be out of something else. But Toot Bred Genia I can prove that. She may have been bred to ten other males. I did see her hung up with Toot. I saw some pups nursing on Gena later that looked the same color as Tombstone plus some with more white. They could have been switched. My bet with you is Genia was there. I beleive tombstone is one of her pups but that isn't for sure and isn't part of the bet. I'd had to lived there to be sure whos they were positively Toot's and Gena's. I have one question. Why would a person lie about Tombstone being out of Gena who was not as well known of a known bloodline instead of some he had that were better known bloodlines dogs? That doesn't make since. I told you earlier there wee no Tudor females there. What i meant was he bred some dogs down from Tudor's stuff and had them there. What I'm saying is Tudor didn't breed one dog that was there on his place at the time. Anyway put up or shut up.

Randy you wanting me to put up money to something that i myself have said is possible both ways although i believe it was baby for reasons i have stated is riddiculous, as we would again only be being told that gina maybe was on maloneys yard ,not that anyone including you as you have stated in your own psot can be sure whether gina or baby was the dam to tombstone, so what would me putting up money prove anymore than we already can ? You should like i do put any info you have out there that is credible , like me calling CYJ and playing him some audio i have, and infact i will call him again to play him the audio where maloney says that toot
is out of the same dam mayfields nigger dog is which was baby, and then later maloney changes and says gina, so mayfield never knew for sure but in his gut he felt sure tombstone was out of one of earls pure bitches that maloney had on his yard,
and the reason why maloney would have lied to earl was if earl knew that don had sold those pups out of earls bitches earl would have been mad with maloney as they had a deal so the theory is maloney put gina as the mother to avoid that happening , and although i agreed with the view that in any case like this one were its a he said she said, the fact that maloney is on tape saying it then changing his story later on in the conversation plus another man who calls don years later and tells don that bob wallace who told this man , who i think went by the nickname of crab apple or had a dog named crab apple plus he conditoned grch 35 for rudshin bill upto one fight before his gr chs and had sweet pea and little bear so someone may know that man ,well bob told him that gina was on his yard , when maloney claims she was on his yard whelping tombstone, so like i said one of you may be correct but someone is most definetly mistaken and it could be any of you.

Randy are you going to never say what you feel is the truth about blind billy and eli, or can we take it that from your silence that anything you say would incrimnate floyd so rather than say anytihng your keeping quiet and only say something when it can make make mayfield look bad ?

I agree with cyj that what happened 40 years ago wont change our dogs today, but i never said it would , what i said is that it would be correct and the right thing to do to put that right especially when by your own silence randy faced with the facts about blind billy and subsequently eli , you obviuosly know yourself there can only be one true answer , otherwise randy based on how you post opinions on anything that could have more than one explanation that might prove mayfield wrong you would have said it, but your silence semms to say it all about blind billy and eli and were the truth lies.

I wonder how many of us would like it if we wrote a book or a song and someone stole it and passed it off as there own work , i wonder how many would just say , oh well who cares let the one who stole it take the credit for my work ,
which is exactly what we are doing by saying who cares in the case of blind billy and eli , when with the evidence we
have regardless of our alliances and friendships we should be man enough to say so not just when it suits our own agenda
and at least give mayfield his rightful credit as the breeder of the eli litter ,and blind billys untrue heritage proves it ,so instead of asking me to put up or shut up , especially as i have been asking you the same thing but not with some hogwash money up front first before i talk ,maybe you should try taking your own advice and do just that about blind billy and eli ,as i have answered and actually tried to explain every theory i have on these dogs from tombstone to eli and never held anything back ,so stop trying to play games and turn the tables with another hogwash smokescreen .

[Foxman]

ProjectX You win. Whoever you like is honest and tells the straight up scoop. If anyone disagrees with your they are wrong. Why do you ask anyone their opinion if it doesn't count. How many dogs have you fought? Mistro. You are the king of opinion. Have you ever done anything else but talk dogs. I would have to destroy Mayfield with facts and words to destroy you but I am not going there. I've already told you he was a great dogman. That you already know. I wish I'd never talked on here. I'm done with you.I told you to put up or shut up. You won't do either so I have to shut up to not hear you. By everyone.

[projectx]

ProjectX You win. Whoever you like is honest and tells the straight up scoop. If anyone disagrees with your they are wrong. Why do you ask anyone their opinion if it doesn't count. How many dogs have you fought? Mistro. You are the king of opinion. Have you ever done anything else but talk dogs. I would have to destroy Mayfield with facts and words to destroy you but I am not going there. I've already told you he was a great dogman. That you already know. I wish I'd never talked on here. I'm done with you.I told you to put up or shut up. You won't do either so I have to shut up to not hear you. By everyone.

Randy i have my opinions just like anyone else has them, and just like you or me we hope that people agree with what we may say as that is human nature , but for me to disagree with anyone they would at least have to make a commnet for me to disagree with in the first place, and you randy have only made one commnet on the dogs mentioned in this thread, and that was about tombstone,and how you believe that he was out of gina, but say notihng on any other dog, especially blind billy, so dont start trying to say that i only want people to agrree with me becuse i dont, i want poeple to give a true and honest opinion based on the facts presented such as they are ,not on who they like more or whos dogs they run.

I could say the same about you come to that , but at least i try to put forward a reasonable argument for why i beleive a dog may or may not be bred a certain way, and i already agreed with you in part that although i tend to believe that baby and not gina was the dam, based on the evidence and overall gut feeling , i still said contrary to you saying( i only want you or anyone else to agree with me ) that one of you guys as you had said categorically that gina was on maloneys yard at the exact time tombstone was whelped , and i said that another man told the story that bob wallace had gina on his yard , so maloney and you might be mistaken just as bob wallace might have been mistaken , i just happened to think baby is the dam, more because of what i heard maloney say on the audio to mayfield , and also because maloney did have a deal in place with earls pure bitches , but again i said that its a he said she said case and one that my gut tells me is baby yours tells you is gina , and i can live with that .

But just to put your little theory about anyone i believe is honest and anyone i dont believe in like floyd is not true, i know don was no saint just like floyd maloney and many more , and im sure theres been things mayfild did that we could say something about absolutley im not an idiot, but this thread as i keep reminding you randy is about famous dogs with disputed pedigrees and apart from tombstone on which i am happy to agree to disagree with you as their is
every chance that maybe gina was the dam and maybe not, but in the blind billy and eli case , and even i am getting tired of repeating myself for your benefit but the evidence is pretty much overwhelming and still you dont give a game reply but try to cop out by trying to turn the tables asking me hogwash questions as to somehow avoid having to make an honest and truth full answer to the question. And as you know where i stand on the blind billy eli subject all you have to do is say either i beleive floyd or mayfield and others as it wasnt only mayfield who always felt blind billy wasnt bred as floyd said or eli, so to claim i disagree whith anyone who doesnt agree with me is a mute point untill you actually say what you think without trying dance around the subject which your still doing i cant disagree with you can i. I hope that if you do give us an answer rather than running away from it as you keep threatening to do on every post that doesnt agreee with you rather than accuse me of that, you might explain how you think blind billy could be the son of dibo because if thats what you think randy , that might be a little tricky but id love to hear that .

Finally randy i think im stating the obvious here but your comment about me saying that if anyone disagrees with me they are wrong , is what most people you included think about an opposing view if they think ,as i do that i am correct just like you think you are correct ,so we could say that about everybody who unless shown a reason that proves them wrong will
always disagree with the opposite version, but i can say to you that if i was a floyd worshipper and hadnt known about the timeline for dibo and billy or the crybaby litter and other evidence albeit circumstantial from dogmen and the like , i might also be saying i beleive floyd , but when i am shown something more than hearsay that gives me more than a just a hearsay and whos side do i take decsion to make depending on who i like or whos dogs i run , then with the evidence on blind blly and eli i would have to say it must be true, and so far randy eventhough i dont agree with you on tombstones dam, i am open to the possibilty that it might have been gina, just as i am open to the possibilty on other dogs with disputed pedigrees, but on billy and eli i cant pretend to be blind regardless of who i like more ,and you will not see me defending mayfield or other dogmen who i like but i know are not angels when i am presented with more than hearsay on sometihng like the subject of this thread, so randy i dont care if you agree or disaagree i am as confident about the true breeding of eli and the unknown breeding of blind billy as i or anyone else could ever be, and if you agree it wouldnt be because im saying so ,it would be becasue in this case the evidence points there , and it would seem a shame that you would rather say nothing on something so obvious and i hope i am wrong and that you will give your view based on the evidence .

[evolutionkennels]

Someone please close this thread.

[No Quarter Kennel]

NQK you can say what you like about me, but this thread was and is about dogs with fake pedsigres or at leasts ones with a known dubioius heritage, and as such if my mentioning them it is badmouthing them , that unfortunatley goes wth the territory.If you read my posts on this thread before writing you might have seen that the only one i would put my hand on my heart and say is undoubltedly fake is the blind billy and eli peds, with tombstone or the others its more a case of weighing up the facts to hand and the word of the ones around back then and decide which you think makes more sense , and i think i have said that although i tend to favour baby as tombstones dam , anything is possible, so maybe instead of you trying to bad mouth mayfield with no reason at all apart from the fact we disagree on hammonds so you want to hate on mayfield becasue of it ,even when the subject of the truth of such an important bloodline in the history of this bred as the ELI bloodline is up for discussion , you would rather not talk about that but waste your time trying to get at me by bad mouthing mayfield instead of taking an interest in the thread and maybe thinking about that, and what makes me laugh is that in your 2 posts , both of which have said nothing on any of the dogs and all they are is a rant about me and mayfield ,when maybe if you were a serious breeder as you say you are , you might have said something about it ,but of course that would mean having to agree with mayfield on something without sarcasm which you arent man enough to do are you.
Now as for my audio tapes i have a few of them and for you to call me a lair when you have no reason other than not having ever known of them or probably ever talked to mayfield as your obviously a greenhorn regardless of how long youve been breeding dogs, but the fact that i do have them and only wish i had all 400 of them and what i have said is on the tapes is infact on them ,and im sure that i am not the only one who got audio tapes from mayfield ,but i will call cyj and play the audio to him over the phone and then we can see whos a lair , and maybe the next dog i mention will be a little closer to home for you ,then you can get mad , but sometimes the only way a blind man can see is if you force his eyes wide open ,and by god yours need some serious opening thats for sure.

Now NQK when i prove i have the tapes , i will expect a full appology from you which i want you to confrim on this thread before i call a member on this thread who i have never talked to before but i asked him for his number as he seems to be very knwledgable about the game, and i would be happy to call him and he can confirm that he has infact heard the tapes.
Then i expect you will be a man and say SORRY to me,and if you confirm that you will say sorry when confiramtion of the tapes is given , i will go ahead and call this member who i was hoping to talk to anyway so i hope he wont mind if he can do that .

Now NQK by knowing that i am not a lair when you get confirmation of it, that will of course mean that whether i am correct in my beliefs or not in anything i have said to you before today or from this day forward and whether you agree with it or not i hope you can
get you to the realisation that what i have and im saying to you and others is not being said to take sides for the sake of it just becasue i happen to agree with mayfield or disagree with floyd or anyone else for that matter, its becasue i happen to think it has some truth to it ,but not just from blind faith , but from good old common sense and a little research to as best as possible say what i say , and whether you will agree or disagree with me on matters either past present or future , i have never lied or tried to deseive you or anyone else , so in that alone i hope you will never insult me again as you have done about the audios and call me a liar ,because i am not , and when as in the case of an obvious lie's like blind billy or any others that may follow on this thread, i hope you have the courage to admit you see it even if it means agreeing with me and mayfield and maybe having to disagree with one closer to you .

I apologize that you have tapes with someone (unconfirmed) saying shit you believe in. I'm sorry you canNOT prove the voices on the tape are anyone you say they are.
I am sorry you are obsessed with proving people who have honest reputations are dishonest and your source of validation is that of people who lived dishonest lives.

There - you win - I apologized.

Happy New Year!

[Gotta12v]

its a shame when a knowledgeable and honest old timer is disrespected and discouraged from posting on here. hes not going to say what you want him to say so why cant this be left alone?

[projectx]

Someone please close this thread.

Hi evo , why should the thread be closed ? it has only jsut started with a few dogs being talked about,
and if you are getting bored of the psots between me and foxman, well i agree so am i , but maybe if
someone actually tries to porve the blind billy thoery wrong if thats what they think ,then they need
to at least make a psot attempting to do just that insyead of dragging thier feet and saying zippo
about it .

I m not sure what we are all supposed to do when a subject like disputed pedigrees is opened, are we
just to pretend they dont exist, or as some of us have done make some posts and even foxman himself put
forward his version of what he believes is the dam to tombstone, which i argued against , but his could be true just
like the theory i believe could also be true , and thats how any thread on these matters should be untill we get
more overwhellming evidence to prove otherwsie.

Now if i am posting on a thread , as foxman has done on here just as others have also done, then
if the thread is being ruined by the arguing by me and foxman i agree, downhill, i would be better
if we stopped it,, but seeing as he has yet to make a comment as to where he stands on eli and billy
which is of course is his right, but considering foxman always seems to make sure he posts when he
has the chance to counter any theory that might counter a mayfield theory , then if he says he has
nothing against him it would be nice to hear him agree with mayfield also , as i cant see how he cant
on billy and eli, and it would have shown foxman as being fair when the evidence proves it and to show
the same courage to maybe say something on the blind billy and eli story by way of a definitiive answer
as to what he believes based on what i would call the most clear cut evidence we have on probably
have on any dog that has ever had a disputed pedigree ,to be clear about what he thinks but that
would mean agreeing with mayfield there is no other answer otherwise foxman would have put one up
by now .

Evo i would also ask you to give your opinion on this , or any of the dogs we have talked about so far
in this thread, im sure you will have your own opinion which may or may not agree with mine or randys or anyone
elses so far , but it would be appreciatted , and considering that the eli line is probably the second most
famous line of modern times behind dibo himself, and that the evidence is there to pretty much put it
right as to the true and unknown brreeding of eli and blind billy , then maybe rather than asking to close the
thread evo you might have added your considered view on all or any of the dogs so far talked about but
especially eli and blind billy, as i think it is only right that the man who for all these years has been talked
about as mad crazy jealous and more, was actually correct about eli and blind billy ,and like i said to randy
and i would ask all of you , to see if you would like that said of yourself or your father , when all along he
was right , and that all these years another man had passed of that intial breeding as his own , and that is wrong
but fate has a way of biteing back , and we dont need faith in mayfield or any other dogman who thought blind billy
was not out of dibo or that eli was not bred as papered, floyds own words have done that for us and its what i call
karma , so before we all go asking to close a thread , lets see it through and have some honest answers , god
knows theirs been enough lies around the dogs and the game maybe its time we started to put it right when we can
and with billy and eli its about as easy as it gets to put right , but that means standing up and being counted like a
man , its easy to run away so lets hear it guys look at the evidence and make it an interesting thread a lets all
of us stop tryting to put down others and stick to what facts we have on each dog already talked about and any
others that may follow take care .

[projectx]

its a shame when a knowledgeable and honest old timer is disrespected and discouraged from posting on here. hes not going to say what you want him to say so why cant this be left alone?

Him gotta , if your talking about foxamn, well im not aksing him to say anything he doesnt want, and if anyones being
disrspected its mayfield, how would you like it gotta12 if that was you they said was mad crazy jealous when all aong you were right, and foxman can keep as quiet as a church mouse for all i care, his silence means he knows if he says anytihng
on blind billy and eli it has to agree with mayfield and about everyone else whos honest enough to admit it , and what makes me wonder about this is that you have bothered to post about poor old foxman, but let me ask you a question
gotta12 , did you look at the evidence about blind billy ? did you work it out ? and if so do you honestly believe that blind
billy is out oif dibo ? and if you do please explain to me how you come to that conclusion? I think the thread would
benefit form every post having an opinion on the subject not on the personal issues foxman or me or anyone else might have as all it does is ruin the thread , so whats your opinioon gotta12 , you made a good post before to which i answered you.
So come on guys i dont want this hogwash anymore than you guys, so lets stick to the thread and the facts and give
some honest and explained comments as to why you think what you think , thats how we all learn and maybe realise
we might have been wrong about something ,including me you and foxman to .