Should Showing EXTREME GAMENESS be Part of DOY Candidacy?

[Officially Retired]

Have to disagree.

There are a gazillion dogs that were "game tested" before a match ... who failed to show game in their matches.

Just because a dog had some kind of game test in school is NOT the same thing as a dog showing extraordinary gameness in a match ... anymore than a dog doing well in school is the same thing as winning a match

To say, "My dog should be considered 'a game match dog' because he was tested in school," can't possibly be taken seriously.

Do you honestly think Ozzie's Homer was "tested as hard in school" as what he had to show in his match?

Ummmmm, no.

Again, the minor level what many dogs are willing to go through "in school" does not in any way approach what they might have to face for real in a match ...

Jack

[ragedog10]

Have to disagree.

There are a gazillion dogs that were "game tested" before a match ... who failed to show game in their matches.

Just because a dog had some kind of game test in school is NOT the same thing as a dog showing extraordinary gameness in a match ... anymore than a dog doing well in school is the same thing as winning a match

To say, "My dog should be considered 'a game match dog' because he was tested in school," can't possibly be taken seriously.

Do you honestly think Ozzie's Homer was "tested as hard in school" as what he had to show in his match?

Ummmmm, no.

Again, the minor level what many dogs are willing to go through "in school" does not in any way approach what they might have to face for real in a match ...

Jack

Very true, but as a whole everyone that says that they game test we as a whole think (30 mins) Is that not a game dog that will then be matched depending on his or her level of ability.

Homer displayed DEEP DEEP GAMENESS
Just as so many have showned to be DEAD GAME.
BSK Money bags beat a 4Xw his first time up in under 13mins killed him and popped his shoulder out and lost his next in almost 2hr and lost half his face doing so! That to me is a GAME DOG. Shows very high ability to finish and heart that say your going to have to finish me to win!

Maybe its time to change some of the mind sets that have been taught by the greats of yester year .(with no disrespect) Example the definition of a game dog should be looked at in depth such as we are doing
Example:
GAME DOG- one who shows no quit
DEEP GAME DOG-one who has went past what most matches are over with be it win or lose.
DEAD GAME DOG-one who takes his or hers death trying to win or one who has come close to death trying to win be it in 30 mins or 4hrs but it almost cost them their life.

Its hard to say one is not game just because he or she never had to go three or four hours.I would only be able to say," I dont know how game he or she is but they are a good one".
Also in no way is schooling or a game test going to deem one game or a match dog(in my eyes)but your eyes might tell you he or she is worth a match and in someone else eyes he or she might not be!
I'm merely stating that with the definition in todays and yesterdays of a GAME DOG its any dog that is bred for and or took to the box. (Not in my mind)
Example I remember going to a old timers who happen to be family house and seeing my first bulldog as a child I asked what kinda of dog is that and he answered a GAME DOG, now this dog was never matched and was his sons hunting buddy. Now was he not a game dog, by their definition of that time every bulldog was a GAME DOG and as time went on you heard more or it's GAME BRED.
One more definition that would have to be looked into deeply.

Just as you have stated most pass schooling and a game test only to pull up on show night. Just as some would show their ass off going a hour plus in a tuff roll only to have enough in 30 when its show time.
I say we here look into what we deem as a GAME DOG,GAME PLUG,DEAD GAME DOG,GAME BRED.

[BULLDOG ANONYMOUS]

What a pole race,huh! Great topic Jack.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Here's my thing on the gameness of any match dog. Before he or she has been hooked he or she went thru schooling right? Now that final test is called what?" A GAME TEST" now with that only beinging 30 plus mins ( a rule edge in stone by yester year) then every dog match has show to be GAME! The level of ones gameness is whats to be displayed on party night if you ask me.
Using the thread " picking up game in 10-20 mins" if what most have said, showing the willingness to keep pressing, is showing that you have some level of gameness,Maybe just lacked in abilty that night.

And anyone that has a fighting backround should have the up most respect for a DEEP GAME DOG as we know no matter how much you condition yourself 5-12 three min rounds is LOOONG and if your heart is not in it its night,night! Lol

If you think about it some dogs are game and never have to show how DEEP GAME they are because they have so much ability example GRCH shady Lady five shows with a total time of 37 plus mins she had to have had more time on her in schooling! Now was she a game dog in my mind yes. She past her 30 min game test. Now how deep was her LEVEL of gameness who can ever say unless they seen her pushed to the max.

Now some my disagree with this but if we have a super ability dog who never get put on his back or put behind in schooling with dogs his size then we get something a lilttle bit bigger and super ruff on him or her. Reason being is I want to see his or hers LEVEL of gameness once they are not in control! Im not going to leave them down till they lose a limb as i plan on matching him or her but I wanna see if your a TRUE GAME DOG one that thinks they can win even tho they are getting put behind. Then your corner, if the more he or she gets put behind by this bigger class mate and we get u back to said corner and the all thing they want to do is go back to work because in his or her mind they are going to win!!! Now that there put chills up and down my spain!

If the objective is to win and you know you have a winner, why "game test" the dog?
Why not just go win.

Heard a guy that is no doubt one of the top 10 of all time say, "I'm not there to find out how game my dog is. I'm here to find out how game yours is."

From a competitive perspective, I get that.

To win is to be game to an extent. To be deep game is something all together different than that. What do you trade? Would you rather win or be game? And yeah, I get it, you'll win more with gameness, but it's a spin on things and something to think about.

[Officially Retired]

Very true, but as a whole everyone that says that they game test we as a whole think (30 mins) Is that not a game dog that will then be matched depending on his or her level of ability.

Homer displayed DEEP DEEP GAMENESS
Just as so many have showned to be DEAD GAME.
BSK Money bags beat a 4Xw his first time up in under 13mins killed him and popped his shoulder out and lost his next in almost 2hr and lost half his face doing so! That to me is a GAME DOG. Shows very high ability to finish and heart that say your going to have to finish me to win!

Maybe its time to change some of the mind sets that have been taught by the greats of yester year .(with no disrespect) Example the definition of a game dog should be looked at in depth such as we are doing
Example:
GAME DOG- one who shows no quit
DEEP GAME DOG-one who has went past what most matches are over with be it win or lose.
DEAD GAME DOG-one who takes his or hers death trying to win or one who has come close to death trying to win be it in 30 mins or 4hrs but it almost cost them their life.

Its hard to say one is not game just because he or she never had to go three or four hours.I would only be able to say," I dont know how game he or she is but they are a good one".
Also in no way is schooling or a game test going to deem one game or a match dog(in my eyes)but your eyes might tell you he or she is worth a match and in someone else eyes he or she might not be!
I'm merely stating that with the definition in todays and yesterdays of a GAME DOG its any dog that is bred for and or took to the box. (Not in my mind)
Example I remember going to a old timers who happen to be family house and seeing my first bulldog as a child I asked what kinda of dog is that and he answered a GAME DOG, now this dog was never matched and was his sons hunting buddy. Now was he not a game dog, by their definition of that time every bulldog was a GAME DOG and as time went on you heard more or it's GAME BRED.
One more definition that would have to be looked into deeply.

Just as you have stated most pass schooling and a game test only to pull up on show night. Just as some would show their ass off going a hour plus in a tuff roll only to have enough in 30 when its show time.
I say we here look into what we deem as a GAME DOG,GAME PLUG,DEAD GAME DOG,GAME BRED.

I would say Homer displayed dead gameness, way beyond deep gameness, and would have stopped 99.9999999% of all dogs on earth his weight.

I also think the refusal to die is a form of gameness

Some dogs (and strains of dog) go into shock easier than others ... or "lay down" to severe injury and die easier than others ... whereas some dogs just WILL NOT YIELD ... even if hopelessly behind, hopelessly outclassed, hopelessly injured ... they just will not be denied.

That is a form of greatness, over and above mere "athletic ability" ... it is intangible, it is hard to measure ... but WHEN YOU SEE IT ... dogs that do not have this kind of spirit just won't do

And, very often, dogs like this will "scare the quit out of" most higher-ability (front-running) athletes ...

And it is this spirit which is (and should be) the essence of our breed.

Jack

[arsuffi@att.net]

I would say Homer displayed dead gameness, way beyond deep gameness, and would have stopped 99.9999999% of all dogs on earth his weight.

I also think the refusal to die is a form of gameness

Some dogs (and strains of dog) go into shock easier than others ... or "lay down" to severe injury and die easier than others ... whereas some dogs just WILL NOT YIELD ... even if hopelessly behind, hopelessly outclassed, hopelessly injured ... they just will not be denied.

That is a form of greatness, over and above mere "athletic ability" ... it is intangible, it is hard to measure ... but WHEN YOU SEE IT ... dogs that do not have this kind of spirit just won't do

And, very often, dogs like this will "scare the quit out of" most higher-ability (front-running) athletes ...

And it is this spirit which is (and should be) the essence of our breed.

Jack

Jack you wrote what I have been thinking since this discussion started and HOMER was one of the most put up bulldogs I had the pleasure of seeing Oscar just lived 30 min from me. Johnny

[EWO]

I see the YES votes are piling up and creating a little separation. Great topic and a great string of posts.

I voted NO and after reading all the views and thinking a little more on the topic I am still on the NO side of the fence.

Homer and Jeep are great examples. Many have said Jeep could not have taken what he put on Homer. Many have said if it were done at Homer's weight he would have dispatched the great Jeep dog. Some have even said that the actual Jeep dog died that night and the owners stood one in to cash in on the 4 hour-plus history making match.

Those are all assumptions based on hear say and personal opinion. Not seeing the match but reading the reports and accounts I would say Homer was the gamer of the two dogs, and that would be opinion as well. I think the DOY should be about facts and little about perception and the fact is Jeep beat Homer. Regardless of whose camp one sides with, or which dog you would rather breed to, the fact remains one dog won and one dog did not. The winning dog gets the vote for DOY because DOY is about being the best dog for that given time.

The probable PBB DOY by all accounts basically dominated what was put in front of him for the given period of time. The entire big picture of the dog world should not be factored in as it is simply a performance title. Being crossed will he produce? We will see but it does not matter. Is he from a family of performers? Does not matter unless one of them pulled off 7 and is on the ballot as well. Is he a game dog? I would say yes, but on match night it does not matter if he has enough of everything else to win.

Matching dogs is about winning not answering 'gameness' questions. (With maybe the exception of using the first match as a game check so basically it is not 30-45-60 minutes of time that will not count, but that is a different topic altogether). I have seen several dogs I would bet on but would not breed to. I have seen several dogs I would breed to but would not bet on. People that receive "Gamest in Show' titles never left home with that goal in mind. They left home with the intentions of winning. And if they leave home 6-7-8 times and win, they are then candidates for DOY. EWO

[S_B]

EWO, excellent post and I completely see eye to eye with you.

Especially the part about what you would bet on verses what you would breed to. That statement is one to live by in my book

S_B
(Voted No )

[Officially Retired]

That was well said.

However, I am not sure I can agree that Homer wouldn't get votes for Dog of the Year ... I absolutely think he would (if not even Decade/Lifetime) by the people who saw him go (as well as a general consensus in the fraternity)

In fact, what if we changed the title to BULLDOG of the Year ... does the word Bulldog not carry the implication of tenacity/deep gameness with it??

Jack

[Officially Retired]

What a pole race,huh! Great topic Jack.

Thank you ... final votes coming soon