Bulldogs and Terriers

[S_B]

Great thread, enjoyed everyone's contributions to the topic.

I say I LOVE BULLDOGS ANYWAY!

If they were crossed with poodle and retained their spirit I'd probably have a yard full of curly headed show stoppers! Haha

S_B

[skip11]

Great discussion! What's interesting to me is that if you look at old school pit bulls (Colbys, Tudor's Black Jack, Black Jack Jr., Corvino, etc.), a lot of them look more like AmStaffs today rather than gamebred APBTs. So now comes the question: is it maybe possible that genetically, working AmStaffs today (such as Esoteric AmStaffs or even the X-Pert line, which are down from Tacoma Jack) are more similar to the old dogs than gamebred dogs today? I do think in general, most AmStaffs are bred so far down a different purpose that they're a different breed but there are working lines (schutzhund etc.) that the owner claimed are breeding true to type based on the old AmStaff standard.

[CYJ]

Most Pit Bull bloodlines will have some old Am Staff dogs back in their pedigrees. Using any today would be a experiment that may or may not work out under proper pit bull testing methods. If used, would only use a line of Am Staff bred down from the Tacoma-Doyle dogs of the 60's-70's era. Then would only use a AM Staff male bred to a very well built deep game A.P.B.T female.

Even then another problem will arise, is the Am Staff built to a good solid A.P.B.T. standard or too the new AM Staff show dog standard. Am Staff show dog breeders today prefer a stockier fatter looking type dog. Or they just keep them too fat period. LOL

The last Time I was at Garner's Bar-B-Q get together. I saw a few nice looking dogs. Then some I could only wonder where or what kind of dog was that. Reckon what I am trying to say is, you need too have been around some of the older dog men of the past. So you can develop a good eye for what are the best type looking dogs with a good knowledge of pedigrees and performance as well.

Dog's like Weldon's Jimmy Boots or dogs that show a lot of bone size etc. yet at a lower body weight. That was always part of the magic formula of the Jocko-Red Boy dogs. Those dogs were built strong like the old Colby and Jim Williams type dogs. Mr. Gainey near the end of his time in the dogs had perfected his own line of those dogs. I was looking at them one day and said to him. Mr. Gainey looks like you have about recreated that old Jim Williams line of dogs.

The Dog game is just full of too many variables and will always be like that. The dog men/conditioners that are the most successful are like a Top of the line Boxing or Wrestling Coach. Those Coach's know the persons that have the greatest potential to win. They also know one can have great potential to be a winner but will not if the heart and drive is not there.

I know I am getting some what off subject. Professional Race Horse trainers know the main reason for those Triple Crown winners. Is that most of those Horses are bred down from Gamer well bred Race horse descendants. Which gives those Horses bigger and better built bodies and a horse heart that is much larger than the other average to good Race Horses.

So to me it is never wrong to try a old or new idea and see what turns up. If you get some really good dogs from a modern day AM Staff cross. You are the person feeding them. They make you happy that is all that matters. But still be honest with the papers and tell anyone that might be interested in those dogs etc. They may not want any modern AM Staff in their blood lines. Cheers

[skip11]

If used, would only use a line of Am Staff bred down from the Tacoma-Doyle dogs of the 60's-70's era. Then would only use a AM Staff male bred to a very well built deep game A.P.B.T female.

I guess the problem with using working line AmStaffs is still the gameness. Even though maybe a few breeders are still trying to breed true to type, they're still generations away from breeding for the original purpose. I just felt there strains of gamebred APBTs today that are too whippety and thin boned which to me doesn't look like the original dogs of old like the Colbys.

I'm still all for the gamebred lines, don't get me wrong. But if I were to get another breed other than the APBT, I would probably go with a gamebred (if there are still any) or sporting line Staffordshire Bull Terriers instead of AmStaffs.

[S_B]

Skip a lot of the fine boned bulldogs are poorly fed and poorly bred imo.

Plenty of thick boned gamedogs. Heres and example, this fella is a brute and his pups aren't lacking in the bone department either.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=58427

S_B

[skip11]

Skip a lot of the fine boned bulldogs are poorly fed and poorly bred imo.

Plenty of thick boned gamedogs. Heres and example, this fella is a brute and his pups aren't lacking in the bone department either.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=58427

S_B

That's a nice thick boned 1. Here's an example of what I consider a bulldog that's on the thin side. https://pedigree.gamedogs.cz/details.php?id=108935 Gr Ch Tyson Jr. Maybe it's just the pictures but I've seen pups videos and pics of pups off of him and they're all on the thin side imo.

Not to turn this into a conformation thread but I love a well built, well conformed bulldog. Buck, Machobuck, Chinaman, Dynomite, Silverback are great examples of what a bulldog should look like in my opinion.

[S_B]

That dogs bone is a little fine for his size, to me he looked a bit under fed as a young dog. A lot of dogmen believe in keeping a thin waist on a dog their entire life, slightly above show weight. I disagree, although I also don't think keeping them 10+ pounds over is good either.

Pups should be fed what they'll eat, I like feeding mine 3x daily to start then 2x daily until around 6 months of age. Never raised a thin boned dog, but I have seen some bred similar who are.

I don't know if there truly is terrier blood in these dogs as I simply wasn't there when they were started and the documentation is sketchy. But I do know when you have a breed who's purpose is to work their looks will vary from kennel to kennel due to selection and husbandry. Look at sled dogs for example, they don't look like the thick boned huskies we see as pets. Thick bones look nice but they can be too thick to function properly. The pet huskies wouldn't last on a long sled run as they'd tire out way too fast caring the weight of that bone. Something to consider, looks never did much but look good.

S_B

[skip11]

I think in the case of huskies, it's a little different because they're doing insane distances for the iditarod. I agree just breeding for looks will never do any breed good. However the saying "form follows function" should also still be true. I feel some dogmen are so consumed with gameness that they disregard conformation. All things being equal (although it never is), the dog with better conformation will win.

I feed mine 2x a day always from when he took him home at 4.5 months till now and will always feed him 2x a day. I fed him about 2-3% of his estimated full grown weight (so about 240-260 grams of meat, organs, bones, and fruits 2x/day + egg, veggies, kefir,and salmon oil which I don't count towards the 240-260g).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNHsIAbdyx0 here's a video on the original bulldog by Robert Leighton. I agree, when you bred for performance it's unclear whether the terrier was added or not. I just felt there certain strains that have the terrier look more so than others.

[EWO]

Like any working dog,bulldogs will vary when bred for winning or performance. Often the variations are looked over as there are weight classes for all of them. The big dog that wins is bred just like the little dog and often to one another. Size and shape follow that variation.

Even when within a family, even a tight bred family there will be an occasional big dog or little dog, away from the family norm. If that turned out to be a good one, then the variations start to mount.

Then, as will all working dogs, someone starts breeding for an outward appearance or a certain size or shape, or even color. The working ability starts to slide.

I would imagine at some point if a guy has a bone crushing killer and one of those little game ass terriers were available....etc.etc...
Maybe he says if the little terrier can give me ten more minutes I'm good.

Like the above post suggests, I was not there so I will have to work with what I have at my house. Just hard to say.

EWO

[Chase1]

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE PIT BULLDOG IS THE ORIGINAL. THIS BREED WAS USED TO CREATE SO MANY OTHER BREEDS. THEY CAN'T GET WHAT THE PIT BULLDOG HAS TO OFFER. FROM ANY OTHER BREED OUT THERE. GAMENESS, DETERMINATION, COURAGE AND ETC...

THERE MAY BE SOME TERRIER BUT I SEE ALOT OF HOUND AS WELL. I GUESS BACK IN THE DAY THEY HAD TO USE WHAT WORKED NO MATTER BREED OR PEDIGREE.