Picking from litter based on color?

[QCK23]

***Disclaimer- I skimmed the board to see if this topic was addressed earlier so if I have overlooked it please feel free to redirect me in that direction****

Your dogs are being breed hopefully based on certain traits you would like to perpetuate in your line. Many of us don't have the resources to hold on to all the offspring from each breeding nor the means to keep them to a point in their development when we can evaluate which pups were passed the traits we covet. Inevitably, we make our selection and place the remaining pups elsewhere. When determining which pups will be kept do you think we increase the odds of a certain trait being passed if we select the puppy with the same coloration as the dog we are breeding who possesses the trait we are attempting to duplicate?

Lets use Silverback as an example because I'm sure we are all familiar with him. Silverback has a finish trait that is being thrown into his litters. Do we increase our chances of picking a pup from a litter that was passed that trait if we keep the Seal colored pup? Obviously, that trait has the potential to be passed to any of the offspring not just the ones colored like Silverback but are the ODDS increased if we choose the seal pup? Keep in mind, I understand there is no direct link between color and other traits but I'm speaking purely as it it pertains to percentages. Trying to play the numbers game here.

I'm hoping some guys will reply to this who have tracked traits for many many litters and consequently, have a better idea if this is a consistent method of choosing which pups to keep. It seems if there is no visibly apparent gene we can look for to alert us that the offspring has a better percentage chance of retaining specific genes from one of its parents then we are just rolling the dice. Therefore, your chances of being able to build your line on certain traits are greatly diminished if you dont have the capability to keep all of your litters through maturation.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Scientifically and mathematically, no - the odds are not better simply b/c of a color.

However, I am of the opinion, that a very selectively bred line of dogs centered around a true "TYPE" that involves quality traits, can and most likely will increase your odds of knowing what to expect even with color involved, but this is just my opinion and the line would have to have been culled and selected to a high degree.

[FrostyPaws]

In using Silverback or any dog, the only way you know an offspring has finish is to see that happen or happening. Your odds aren't increased because the offspring is seal and from a litter where a dog with finish comes from. Most of my dogs are red, red nose so color doesn't play a part in the decisions I make. Seeing the offspring do their thing is the sole thing that determines which are bred and which aren't. You eliminate the guessing game about which to breed, but you still have to go through the subsequent offspring to see if what you want is there. My way isn't the only way to skin a cat, but it's the one I prefer to use to satisfy my own curiosity.

You are right in the sense that everything does decrease without the ability to keep litters. Invariably, you have to depend on people to give you THEIR feedback, and if they're not of the same mindset or an easier judge, then you simply have to take their word for it and hope for the best. If your dogs are going to people that seriously know what they're looking for/at, then things are a lot better for you as the breeder. They should be able to give you an objective view of the good and the bad of the offspring, and you will be able to make your decisions accordingly.

[Officially Retired]

***Disclaimer- I skimmed the board to see if this topic was addressed earlier so if I have overlooked it please feel free to redirect me in that direction****

For shame, not doing your research

Your dogs are being breed hopefully based on certain traits you would like to perpetuate in your line. Many of us don't have the resources to hold on to all the offspring from each breeding nor the means to keep them to a point in their development when we can evaluate which pups were passed the traits we covet. Inevitably, we make our selection and place the remaining pups elsewhere. When determining which pups will be kept do you think we increase the odds of a certain trait being passed if we select the puppy with the same coloration as the dog we are breeding who possesses the trait we are attempting to duplicate?

I do not have any case study on this, only my opinion. Like Frosty, most of my dogs used to be either red or buckskin, that's it. And, up until Silverback showed up, I hardly ever had what I consider to be a true finisher (with the exception of Stormbringer).

Since incorporating Silverback into the mix, however (via Ouch!), I now get chocolate- and seal-colored animals fairly regularly, and I have also added a much higher degree of finish to the mix in a fairly significant portion of the pups. (And Stormy himself was out of the chocolate Coca Cola ...)

And, now that you're making me think of it, every pup off of Silverback that has exhibited this finishing trait has been seal-colored (except one bitch that is chocolate). For a detailed read on where this finishing trait comes from (IMO), I suggest you read my detailed breakdown of Ouch!'s genetic background, and you will see that this finishing ability does seem to follow along with the seal/chocolate coloration ... all the way back in the pedigree.

Is this coincidence? Possibly, as certainly not all of my seal-colored Silverback dogs have finish. (For example, Dirty Hammer is a seal-colored direct daughter of Silverback, but she is a dopey dog that has ZERO ability at all, let alone finish.) So there is no necessary correlation between the color seal and the trait of finish. However, when bred back to Silverback, many of Dirty Hammer's pups did have the finish trait, and every pup that did was seal-colored.

Another example, when I bred Twilight (U-Nhan-Rha's sister) to Silverback, ALL the dogs came out with high ability. Still, one seal-colered dog is a fantastic dog, but he is not a finisher ... same as the two buckskin males (excellent dogs, but no true finish) ... but there is one true killer in that litter, 007, and (yep, you guessed it) he is a seal-colored dog also

Lets use Silverback as an example because I'm sure we are all familiar with him. Silverback has a finish trait that is being thrown into his litters. Do we increase our chances of picking a pup from a litter that was passed that trait if we keep the Seal colored pup? Obviously, that trait has the potential to be passed to any of the offspring not just the ones colored like Silverback but are the ODDS increased if we choose the seal pup? Keep in mind, I understand there is no direct link between color and other traits but I'm speaking purely as it it pertains to percentages. Trying to play the numbers game here.

Based on the pups so far, I would have to say YES!

Keep in mind, Silverback has thrown some GREAT dogs that were not finishers (or seal), such as PonchoBack 2xW. So just because a Silverback dog is "not seal" doesn't mean it can't be a World Class Athlete, and beat some excellent dogs, even though it may not be a finisher. All through my breeding career, most of my dogs were not finishers, but they still whipped their opponents just fine.

I'm hoping some guys will reply to this who have tracked traits for many many litters and consequently, have a better idea if this is a consistent method of choosing which pups to keep. It seems if there is no visibly apparent gene we can look for to alert us that the offspring has a better percentage chance of retaining specific genes from one of its parents then we are just rolling the dice. Therefore, your chances of being able to build your line on certain traits are greatly diminished if you dont have the capability to keep all of your litters through maturation.

Again, the color seal does not "guarantee" a Silverback pup is going to be a finisher ... and I am sure that there will be some buckskin/red dogs out of him that will exhibit this trait. However, for now, in thinking about it, EVERY SINGLE PUP THAT HAS EXHIBITED THE FINISHING TRAIT HAS BEEN SEAL OR CHOCOLATE, so it is hard to ignore this fact (if that's what you're looking for in this particular line of dogs).

I would also say the intensity/movement/body strength of the dogs has to be looked at also. Each of the specimens who has exhibited this trait has been BY FAR more intense than most of the littermates, and they have been extremely strong dogs too by comparison, and they also seem to take 5x longer to eat their food ... because they eat, regurge, eat, regurge, eat, regurge, etc. They can't seem to get food (or dogs) into their mouth fast enough ... they are VORACIOUS in pretty much all they do that has to do with using their mouths ... LOL

These would be my preliminary observations,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I have updated the links on the post about Ouch to reflect the pedigrees entered here, so this post makes more sense.

Jack

[widerange]

Over all I would think that it is a roll of the dice but I tend to keep pups out of litters that over all favor the dam/sir that I'm hoping to gain something from. Such as if a sir is short built,red and active I will most likely hang on to the ones that have this look. Although I don't care for raising pups and much rather get a dog at the 9-13 month old range I believe when it comes to breeding if you have watched a pup grow up to earn breeding rights you have a good chance of picking a pup that follows that dogs ways as a pup. So I do believe that raising pups does help one gain a good eye for picking good ones out

[Officially Retired]

Over all I would think that it is a roll of the dice

I hear people say this all the time, as if every person who makes a breeding has the exact same chance of getting "the same results" when they breed their dogs, as any other man who's breeding dogs. This of course is utter rubbish. The truth is, some people will never get consistent success (or success at all) with their breeding choices, because they simply do not know what they're doing genetically, while other breeders enjoy reliable and consistent success, and can sustain it over the years, and that is because they know exactly what they're working with genetically, and how to bring-out the traits they want with their breeding choices.

Therefore, if breeding dogs is a "roll of the dice," then knowing what you're doing genetically when you're breeding dogs means that you're rolling *LOADED* dice

Cheers

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

In all of my time of raising pups to adulthood and breeding my own dog, I never cared how they acted as pups, what they looked like, who they favored. I was in the position to keep every pup out of every litter I ever bred if I chose to do so. That's something I did about 99% of the time. I was always able to watch the pups grow into mature adults and not have to try to read into them as pups what they will be as adults. I let the adult animal show me what they had or didn't have.

[Officially Retired]

In all of my time of raising pups to adulthood and breeding my own dog, I never cared how they acted as pups, what they looked like, who they favored. I was in the position to keep every pup out of every litter I ever bred if I chose to do so. That's something I did about 99% of the time. I was always able to watch the pups grow into mature adults and not have to try to read into them as pups what they will be as adults. I let the adult animal show me what they had or didn't have.

And during "all your time" breeding dogs ... not paying attention to traits, pedigrees, etc. ... how successful were you as a breeder (before you got the prepotent Frosty)?

I am not trying to be mean, just honest and direct, but I well remember our discussions about breedings over the years ... and for well over a decade, as far as I know, "nothing outstanding" ever came from your breeding choices and selection methods, not one time, until you started breeding the prepotent Frosty.

Jack

[widerange]

Maybe I don't have the understanding I need about genetics but I ne er claimed to be the best and Im always willingto learn something new. With that said how can you know what traits will come from a dog that is being breed for the first time. I mean if a dog has a trait and it has been passed down in the ped from generation to generation does that mean he will for sure pass it down also? And if so, couldn't you study the ped and try to match the color of dogs w the trait you want to the pups in the litter such has black dogs in the ped have good finish will this better the chance of having finish in black dogs just asking to stay on topic?