Good luck with that pup NQQ.
Keep us up to date & chin up !!
Good luck with that pup NQQ.
Keep us up to date & chin up !!
1. My dog had an "abnormal stool" so she was taken to a licensed, practicing, experienced veterinarian. Shouldn't he be able to make a proper, correct, and thorough evaluation of the dog? Should I expect the evaluation to be accurate?Originally Posted by CA Jack
Well, actually, IMO (again) the "pale mucousy stools" signified giardia, not parvo.
Parvo stools are usually projectile-watery-bloody in nature, with a distinctive smell.
There are thousands of different protozoa parasites, but I agree that if a vet told me "giardia," then I would think it was giardia.
However, if he told me the nonsense to give "Albon" to treat it, I would also know that this was wrong. The reason I would know this is wrong is because I have educated myself on the subject ... and, if I had never heard of giardia, then the moment I found out about it I would be educating myself on the subject. That's the difference right there: concerned enough to read-up on the subject.
That said, and back to this emergency situation, if the vet pointed out a positive giardia slide then your dog has giardia and you need to treat for it, irrespective of if the dog also has parvo.
I feel your pain. At one point, when I was living in TN, the only vet I trusted lived 1.5 hours from me.
Well, there is no way anyone can be entirely "in the know" of your situation, without being there ... or without you putting in the time to write about it .. but, based on the limited amount you did write, what we DID know was that you came back with a giardia diagnosis, you did not initially test for parvo, and you were advised to treat giardia with a drug that does not affect it. These are the facts that were originally presented by you.
Now you're saying it's not giardia, it's parvo, so I am left curious as to how a positive giardia diagnosis can "vanish" ... and be replaced with a positive parvo diagnosis? Again, if anything, this means your pup has both, and (with nothing being done correctly so far) I am surprised it is still alive, although sometimes fluid therapy alone can keep them going, so it's good you're doing that.
In the end, I am glad that my book helped in some respects, but the protocol to follow in my book is a test for all 3, which wasn't followed initially.
I appreciate what you're saying, and I am really not trying to be condescending, but I do believe that all of this information is in the book ... so if you took the time to read it, you should know it, right? (Unless of course you forgot)
That said (and I am not saying this applies to you), I know a lot of dogmen who like "making puppies," and "selling puppies," and "doing bulldogs" too, but they don't really like to read about the finer points of veterinary medicine to prepare themselves should trouble arise. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, or don't know a lot about some aspects of dogmanship, but it does mean they're deficient in medical matters because they haven't taken the time to make them strong points.
Your point is well taken about the raw, and anyone who takes the time to prepare raw already distinguishes himself as a "better than average caregiver." But that still doesn't mean they read vet books and such
I am not sure how the math on this works out
Pretty much anyone I know breeding dogs deals with coccidia fairly regularly. Giardia and parvo less frequently. Again, I am not trying to be mean, but I can't help but feel that anyone with 16 years into dogs, who doesn't know the signs/treatments for giardia/parvo/coccidia, doesn't do much reading on the subject of veterinary medicine. I don't know how to say this, without saying this, so (without being disrespectful) I sincerely believe this is a form of negligence: not bothering to read about dog ailments/treatments while owning a yard of dogs.
I find your amended opinion on this vet interesting, because in your opening post you said he was "a damned good vet."
I think that it's great that you post things like this, and I sincerely do appreciate it, and I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to what I said. Again, I don't know how to point out what I believe were the errors and omissions without pointing them out
And I absolutely agree that debate needs to occur in order to flush-out the errors ... because, if everything went smoothly, and everything possible was done right, there would be no need for the post to begin with
So I hope you don't take offense to anything I said, because I didn't mean any
Cheers,
Jack
2. However, if he told me the nonsense to give "Albon" to treat it, I would also know that this was wrong. The reason I would know this is wrong is because I have educated myself on the subject ... and, if I had never heard of giardia, then the moment I found out about I would be educating myself on the subject. That's the difference right there: concerned enough to read-up on the subject.
I did not know it was wrong, so therefore, I looked it up, posted questions on here, thus, I learned, or "educated myself on the subject". That's the difference right there: I WAS concerned enough to read-up on the subject!
3. That said, and back to this emergency situation, if the vet pointed out a positive giardia slide then your dog has giardia and you need to treat for it, irrespective of if the dog also has parvo.
This, I completely agree with. Let me tell you about my morning. I take my "other suspected parvo pup" to the vet I had "bad references on" this morning. WHY? B/c I already know what to expect from this jackass I'm using (was) now. This vet has all the right answers. She even tells me, "The reason your other guy disagreed with you on the Flagyl for girardia is b/c he doesn't have any. I know him and he doesn't even have any on hand. You aren't the first to tell me things like this about the guy." She gets my pup going on all the right things. She also completely disagrees with your (Jack) views about Tamiflu. Says they've tried it numerous times with no such luck and it does not work. I didn't agree or disagree with her. I tell her I'm going to get my other pup, at this other vet's office. He's closed of course b/c it's the 4th of July. I call his home, his wife answers and says, "He's up there right now tending to your pup and a horse." I tell her, I'm headed that way. She asks, "What for?" I shouldn't have told her, but since she works for him, I said, "I'm going to pick up my dog." She dies laughing and begins to ask "what for? Why? How come?" I tell her it's no reason and head off to her husband's office. He's not there. I go back, call for 30 minutes straight. Even let it ring 20 straight times. They will not answer the phone. I look his address up, head on over. He's in the yard weed-eating. I approach, calm, no loud voice or attitude. I say, "I need to pick up my dog."
He says, "Well, she just threw up. It's not a good time to take her." Remember, he just has her on fluids and albon alone.
I say, "That's alright, I just want to pick her up and take elsewhere."
He YELLS! "THAT'S FINE - YOU GONNA PAY ME WHAT I GOT IN IT!"
I say, "That's fine as long as you pay me for the EXTRA 180 miles of driving I did for you to finally do a Parvo test"
This guy drops his wead eater, gets up in my face and screams, "YOU DIDN"T EVEN VACCINATE THOSE PUPS. IF YOU DID WHAT YOU SAID YOU DID, THEN SHE WOULDN'T HAVE PARVO"
I simple, calmly tell him, "That right there's why I'm picking her up. You have been an asshole for 2 days and I've had it"
Long story long, we went up, picked up my pup who is sitting in a cage with IV fluids, 1/2 inch deep, soaked with Neomycin all over her chest and face. I take her to the new vet, she gets her going and I believe all is good. Showing her professionalism (and my trust in you Jack) she calls me in a script for Tamiflu and flagyl for my pups at home NOT showing any negative signs and I've already done a preventative treatment today and will follow through with it for the next 4. And for the record, this vet did fecal slides on both and found no protozoa or worms of any kind. Was floored they had parvo knowing what vaccine I used (duramune - again - YOUR recommendation Jack). However, b/c I asked, she's treating them for both the giardia and parvo.
4. Well, there is no way anyone can be entirely "in the know" of your situation, without being there ... or without you putting in the time to write about it .. but, based on the limited amount you did write, what we DID know was that you came back with a giardia diagnosis, you did not initially test for parvo, and you were advised to treat giardia with a drug that does not affect it. These are the facts that were originally presented by you.
No, what you DID know, was that I came back with a giardia diagnosis, MY VET did not initially test for parvo and I was advised to treat giardia with inaffective drugs. THESE are teh facts originally presented by me.
5.[B]Now you're saying it's not giardia, it's parvo, so I am left curious as to how a positive giardia diagnosis can "vanish" ... and be replaced with a positive parvo diagnosis?
I'm not saying giardia was non-existant. I said we added Parvo. You yourself stated earlier that we should treat for both. The treatment for the giardia, as dumbass vet prescribed, did not work and I'm inclined to believe even after I was "concerned" enough myself to research and find out for myself that I should be doing something for the Girardia, it's affectiveness was invisible due to the parvo that was already there.
Again, if anything, this means your pup has both, and (with nothing being done correctly so far) I am surprised it is still alive, although sometimes fluid therapy alone can keep them going, so it's good you're doing that.[/B]
Can't say "nothing being done correctly". The dog showed signs of being just "off". I never waited, I took the dog to a licensed, practicing, experienced vetarinarian. This IS doing something and for most people, it's a real good first step.
In the end, I am glad that my book helped in some respects, but the protocol to follow in my book is a test for all 3, which wasn't followed initially.
Jack, you wrote your book. I happen to love it and it's a tremendous reference for me and does my dogs well for me to have on hand. But I don't have my entire life devoted to Pit Bulls and every aspect of canine health as you do. I love my dogs and I love this breed, but just like you, what I do professionally, you wouldn't be able to hang with me. I can't hang with what you do professionally either. Sorry. You book helped in this situation tremendously, but I put faith and trust in a vet and this vet should have known to check all three things....am I wrong? Why is it my job to know what to test a dog for? When you yourself go to the doctor, do you know every aspect of every disease so that you can 'coach' your doctor through doing his job right? I doubt it.
6. I appreciate what you're saying, and I am really not trying to be condescending, but I do believe that all of this information is in the book ... so if you took the time to read it, you should know it, right? (Unless of course you forgot )
No, that is not right. Do you KNOW everything you've ever read Jack? Seriously, that's a stretch for validation to make a point. B/c of this bullshit debate with you, I will check the book you wrote next time BEFORE I head to the vet. For the record, I love the book and have read it from front to back. I do NOT KNOW it like you. I doubt many here, if any, know it as well as you. Sorry.
7. That said (and I am not saying this applies to you), I know a lot of dogmen who like "making puppies," and "selling puppies," and "doing bulldogs" too, but they don't really like to read about the finer points of veterinary medicine to prepare themselves should trouble arise. Doesn't mean they're bad guys, or don't know a lot about some aspects of dogmanship, but it does mean they're deficient in medical matters because they haven't taken the time to make them strong points.
I see this completely and agree with you. I don't know the medical matters as much as I would like. Honestly, I'm typically better than this particular episode, but with some being misled and confusion thrown my way, it was easier for me to get lost on the way to my goal due to my own dificiecy. But to address this particular statement made by you, would this kind of "dogman" be well served to get his dog to the vet the first show of trouble? This is what I did but this course of action also seems to be deficient in your eyes.
8. Your point is well taken about the raw, and anyone who takes the time to prepare raw already distinguishes himself as a "better than average caregiver." But that still doesn't mean they read vet books and such
Never said it did. Simply argued against you that I am "Concerned". Maybe you should have been more specific with your point to prove I'm not "concerned" for my dogs as there are many ways I can validate the "concern" I do have.
9. Pretty much anyone I know breeding dogs deals with coccidia fairly regularly. Giardia and parvo less frequently. Again, I am not trying to be mean, but I can't help but feel that anyone with 16 years into dogs, who doesn't know the signs/treatments for giardia/parvo/coccidia, doesn't do much reading on the subject of veterinary medicine.
Jack, b/c I've been in this breed for 17 years, doesn't mean I have the same level of experience as anyone. I've only probably bred less than 12 litters in that time. I've had as many as 42 dogs at one time. That doesn't mean much either. Again, you assume b/c of the years I have, I don't know particular signs. If I didn't know "signs" then why did I go to the vet and why is my vet's (former) inability to do his job my fault?
I don't know how to say this, without saying this, so (without being disrespectful) I sincerely believe this is a form of negligence: not bothering to read about dog ailments/treatments while owning a yard of dogs. I can see a certain amount of validity here, but again, how in the world am I negligent when I spotted something wrong with a dog and took it to the vet as soon as I did? How is this negligence? To be "smarter" than the vet is great and I do agree, the more I know the better, and believe me, I know more now, but in reality, I did the right thing and am being criticized for it on a board that is suppose to be "dogman friendly".....or I assumed it was.
10. I find your amended opinion on this vet interesting, because in your opening post you said he was "a damned good vet." And this is fair. I thought this guy did me a pretty good job on the pyometra treatment I did. I never took the dog in, told him everything I needed, and I was able to take care of my bitch THE RIGHT WAY. Why? B/c I was "concerned" so I educated myself, read (therefore I know) about it and took care of business. With this being said, you can now see why I thought highly of him and felt comfortable going back in with something simple like some runny shit. Well, this episode has totally ruined my perception of the guy. They guy was a total jackass this go round so NOW, regardless of the past, I think he sucks.
11. I think that it's great that you post things like this, and I sincerely do appreciate it, and I am sincerely sorry if you took offense to what I said. Again, I don't know how to point out what I believe were the errors and omissions without pointing them out
You know as well as I do, you could use more "tact" at times. I relate to you b/c in my areas of expertise, I find myself having little patience and time for those who do not have a higher understanding and knowledge of what is so important to me. I see this in you and how you interact at times. Your deductive reasoning skills are quite impressive and ability to debate, dissect and logically take something apart or put something together is remarkable. However, sometimes, as we all are at times, you are a condescending son of a gun. With that being said, I mean no offense in that as I like you very much and find your "giving" to the breed and the totality of this forum, regardless of tact, impressive as hell.
And I absolutely agree that debate needs to occur in order to flush-out the errors ... because, if everything went smoothly, and everything possible was done right, there would be no need for the post to begin with
LOL....no, the post originated to get help, not for me to have others call me "negligent" or not "concerned".
So I hope you don't take offense to anything I said, because I didn't mean any
I did take offense regardless of your intentions. This happens b/t people. There are people in your life now, or before now, that know you much better than I on enough levels to reveal things true to you that would offend you. Regardless of intentions.
I can't do this again. I don't have time. I do appreciate all the help and I have to be honest, you pissed me off enough on some of this, I will be more informed and not listen to this shit again. So, I guess all in all, it's all good. Feel free to take everything I said apart, line by line and show me, and everyone else, how inept, careless and stupid I am. I will not rebutt again. Disregard all spelling as this was way too much for me to type to go back and read for corrections of any kind.
Thank you and good day!
Damn dude, chill out and have a Happy Fourth of July
Will do gabba and thank you very much for your sentiments. With no credit to me, this line of dogs I run are some real tough, durable dogs with a strong will to live bred into them as a priority. Gary Hammonds has done a very good job for about 50 years selecting strong willed, determined, durable animals and I get to reap the benefits of that. I've seen quite a few that should have died. I expect these little guys to pull through for me. I really do.
LOL.....Will do. I think I'll do some homeade margaritas and grill some meat and do just that. CHILL!Damn dude, chill out and have a Happy Fourth of July
You do the same Jack and thanks.
These dogs can get frustrating, I know, so a round of margaritas sounds like a good remedy
And I hope your pup(s) come out okay,
Jack
I know you do and I really do appreciate the entire thread.
Anyone paying attention knows there is much to be learned from trials and tribulations!
Thank you Sir!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
